GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[stella]

2 hours ago, Alja said:

There was an old interview in early nineties or so, where he was talking about psychiatric treatment and how that did not work well for him (so drugs did not so he never became a junkie). Psych meds, especially the stronger types, and if we are talking about 90s, most modern types not that much interfering with...the way you live out or how to name it... were not available then: The way they make you blunt and functioning may be even terrifying and some people go off them because the way they change them as a person and (not to speak about somatic symptoms like stiff movements, weight gain, high cholesterol, loss of libido or so) and choose to rather be emotional mess than this. One must be really motivated to undergo this treatment which may last for long or rest of the life with all side effects. I can`t imagine what it does to someone with colorful inner world who basically lives and nurtures from emotions and their expression in art. People on these meds often look like washed out cloth, after some time runny, gut-type fat with no shine, tame shade of their previous self. It always hurts me to see this. They don`t experience nor bad nor good emotions or experience them less intense. 

Current treatment can be set up much more gentle and the range of possible meds and treatment traits is larger. Still you can loose some precious abilities with it.

Forced treatment takes place if someone is danger to surrounding or cannot judge the situation, but after acute treatment you cannot hold even suicidal patient. Forced anything usually does not wok well anyway.

That's absolutely true. Anti-depressants and SSRIs are seen as wonder drugs right now, but they have a shitload of bad side effects that affect both the person's body and mind- everything from loss of libido to making a person MORE suicidal. A lot of them also cause weight gain and negative changes in all sorts of major organs and organ systems. A lot of people opt not to take them, and given the side effects, it's understandable.

A hospital or doctor can't legally force a person to take meds, either, generally. Someone could technically sit in a hospital for weeks and refuse all meds.

Let's say someone has Ebola - under public health laws, they can be quarantined in a hospital so they don't pass the disease to anyone else. The law does provide that - if someone has an infectious disease, they can be quarantined at home or in a hospital so they don't make anyone else sick. I've heard it being done most recently for measles, TB and Ebola. But the law can't force them to be treated. A person with Ebola who is in hospital quarantine could actually say, "You know what, I don't want to fight this, just let me die." Because everyone has the right to make an advanced directive and Do Not Resuscitate orders and refuse medical treatment even if that will kill them.

With emergency psych holds, like 5150s for suicidal patients, the goal is exactly what you said: get them out of the immediate danger zone and connect them to help for diagnosis or management of whatever issues have made them suicidal. Nobody necessarily is going to track them down to ensure they get additional help.

I think a lot of people also forget that many mental and physical illnesses are often lifelong issues that can be maintained at best...not cured. Sometimes some illnesses don't even have good treatments. And even with the BEST of treatment, a person can still get worse or develop complications because illnesses can and do progress. Plus, stress can exacerbate both mental and physical illnesses, so if you have someone that is doing okay and they're suddenly subjected to a lot of stress or loss, any health issues they're handling may also spin out of control.

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by stella

[stella]

1 hour ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Im glad to be in the UK then  

We have the deprivation of liberty here for people with Alzheimer's and other types of Dementia, its really just used as a safeguarding measure to ensure there are trusted people who can make the right decisions for the poor soul who is suffering. 

Here, if a person is suicidal or presenting a danger to other people around them then they can just section you and they will take the person to hospital and then assess their needs. So I suppose I am looking at it from the point of view as to what is usual here 

I just think if he had episodes of being suicidal and being violent and hurting other people, then it would be the best thing. 

I see both sides to it. If someone's legitimately suicidal or violent, they *can* be held for a set period of time without a court order to get them out of the danger zone, and that is good. And I do think that for cases where a person has, say, dementia or another disorder that makes them unable to live independently or make adult choices, it's a very important thing to ensure there's someone looking out for them who can act in their best interests.

But I actually think that it's also really good thing that in order to hold someone for a long period of time or indefinitely -- or to take away people's ability to make their own choices --  there needs to be solid proof and a court order as to why the person can't make treatment and hospitalization decisions for themselves. In the olden days, there were a lot of cases of people being held involuntarily and being forced into treatments they didn't need, that didn't help them, that sometimes caused permanent brain damage, like lobotomies. 

 

[stella]

1 hour ago, Frey said:

Yeah, he's never really disregarded conventional medicine when it comes to actual physical health issues. Fortunately. And yep, he either came to his senses a bit or was really, really desperate by 2002. But then again who knows if that story is even true. Same with Axl travelling with a psychiatrist back then. That one is true, but who knows if it was even an actual psychiatrist or just a Suzy London type charlatan.

Also, Doug Goldstein has said Axl would still be into the Yoda shit if she hadn't died. And Axl had some kind of "In loving memory of Sharon Maynard" type thing in the liner notes of CD, so by 2008 it seems he hadn't really changed his mind about any of that stuff yet.

I think there's a way for one to believe in New Age-style spirituality without being taken to the cleaners...hopefully that is where it is now. What I would hope is that at least he's now not being drawn in by the charlatans and quacks that Slash (?) mentioned in that interview years ago. There are so many damn frauds with alternative medicine and beliefs.

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, Alja said:

If you have loyal and caring near ones, you won. Surprisingly it`s not rare to ask for help, they ask usually if they are really exhausted and see no way out; Worse is if people with mental problems are discouraged by near ones or their near ones are in huge part the root of their problems. Or their delusions are taken as some kind of enlightenment or purgatory/punishment or whatever. Sometimes all one needs is to be taken out from toxic environment rather than be blunt by meds and thrown back. Individual. 

I don't think a mental disease or disorder can be "treated" by your family, no matter how loyal or caring they are. It also depends on the seriousness of the problem. Some things can be treated with an ambulatory treatment, therapy and family contention but other things, like addictions, need some kind of institutionalization (at least for a while).

 

2 hours ago, Frey said:

I know what you mean, but like I said, I'm not really sure Axl qualifies. I don't quite know enough about him to judge that.

From the things I know, he did qualify, at least for a while..... but in the 80's and 90's, I think his problems were treated mostly like a judicial matter rather than medical. His urge for violence, to get into fights, to look for fights, start riots and punch people in the face was dealt mostly by the police. He was sent to jail for a couple days, paid fines, then was released. But the problems continued for another two decades.
When was the last time he got into trouble? The airport incident when he punched a photographer? That's not so long ago. He was not a young rebel anymore but an adult guy with serious agressive behavior problems, gone unsolved for 3 long decades.

He's lucky he punched his women in the 80's and early 90's. He's lucky none of them died from it. There was no awareness of domestic violence back then. Not so much like now.

He's lucky he's a celebrity with lots of money that helped him fix his problems with society in ways most people, especially poor ones, could never afford to use.

----

In Argentina, the mental health system is collapsed and there's a high demand for institutions of this kind. Most of people institutionalized are there under a court petition and the ones who've been spending a lot of time in those places it is because they've been abandoned. People with no resources of any kind, no family, no jobs, no nothing.

Due to the high criminality rates we have, with huge numbers in domestic violence and femicides, society currently demands that these people are either locked in jail or a mental institution. Our prisons are also collapsed. So, we have lots of people with different levels of mental disease or just plain criminals walking the streets like nothing, and they keep committing crimes or showing antisocial behavior. The ones who are not criminals but have a mental disease, sometimes are also homeless, drugaddicts or alcoholics. There arent enough places to contain them, so most of the times they will end up in a mental institution, even if they dont have a mental disease. It really depends on which place is available to contain them for a while. The tendency here is to lock them if there is "room" to hold them; if not, they are released and God help them if they don't have where to go.

A new law of mental health was created recently and it requires that mental institutions are monitored by the judicial system to detect irregularities regarding how people are being institutionalized, under what circumstances and which treatment they receive, how they cope with it, etc. But this has also caused discomfort among the doctors because they say the lawyers and other people who work for the justice have no clue about what's right or wrong for a patient and they interfere with the treatments because they go asking questions to the patients and tell them things a person with a mental problem is not prepared to handle. To make it short, the protection of the patients rights is under doubt of its effectiviness, alienating the patient, who wants to leave before their treatment is over, only to get out, feel bad and having to go back to the hospital, or end up in jail.

I don't know if in the USA things are so strict as they say but one has to think why there are so many crimes in that country at the hands of people who own guns and use them to solve any problem, just like that

So, okay, don't lock Axl because according to whatever he isn't dangerous, enough dangerous, blah blah but what if one of those beatings he would have killed Erin?? Wasn't she hospitalized last time he beat her up?
If this is true, then he's very lucky to be free today...... and I question the reasons why he was not locked... if it is because in the USA burocracy favors the freedom of people, something has to be revised in that legal system, because the freedom of a person who is a potential criminal or murdered means shit to me and if he/she is dangerous then I want them locked away.

Yesterday, a kid and a teacher were killed in San Bernardino, at the hands of some nutso with a gun. How many more victims does the USA need to do something about these mentally unstable people who snap one day and since it is so easy for them to access guns, bang!, they destroy their lives and the lives of innocent people in one second.

I think it is a long debate all around the world on what to do with people who suffer from mental instability (or just break the law) and constitute a danger to society. I really don't know what's best but it is not safe out there anymore. You dont know who is a nutjob walking the streets, or a rapist, or a murderer anymore. Yes, the system does fail and sometimes abuse innocent people and sometimes locks them for no valid reasons. However, I will always advocate for the freedom and protection of the sane and civilized ones.

 

[SerenityScorp]

 

[Rocketqueen76]

17 minutes ago, SerenityScorp said:

 

Is he sporting a mullet?

[Rocketqueen76]

I don't even know where to begin to respond to all the comments that have been posted. I'll start by saying I agree with some of the things that @stella, @Frey, and @Alja said. There were other comments made, and I will address them when I can give an in-depth response.

[dgnr]

So...uhm... here's Slash, without tophat, lid or sunglasses  In a pic - that look really recent - with the hashtags #gunsnroses #studio #recording. I know, I know, but one can dream, right? 

 

[Frey]

1 hour ago, dgnr said:

So...uhm... here's Slash, without tophat, lid or sunglasses  In a pic - that look really recent - with the hashtags #gunsnroses #studio #recording. I know, I know, but one can dream, right? 

 

Yeah, let's hope

Also, since you all were bitching about Axl's hair recently, I gotta say Slash's doesn't really look much better here

Not that I really understand much about this kind of thing (I don't even really understand why y'all think Axl's hair is so damn terrible, it mostly looks alright to me, though I don't pay it much attention), but I'm surprised no one has commented on that yet lol.

 

 

 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

The pessimist in me says Slash is in the studio to do with boring SMKC. 

Still, made my heart skip a beat seeing those hashtags and a pic of him in the studio. Why do they do this to us? 

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, dgnr said:

So...uhm... here's Slash, without tophat, lid or sunglasses  In a pic - that look really recent - with the hashtags #gunsnroses #studio #recording. I know, I know, but one can dream, right? 

Wooow

That guy is a recording engineer........

56 minutes ago, Frey said:

Also, since you all were bitching about Axl's hair recently, I gotta say Slash's doesn't really look much better here

Yeah, that's what I was saying.... Slash is balding at the top, unfortunately, that's why he's always wearing a hat.

Still, it looks way better than Axl's.

 

[Jane M.]

New music from SMKC (or anyone else) is better than nothing. 

[dgnr]

1 hour ago, Frey said:

Also, since you all were bitching about Axl's hair recently, I gotta say Slash's doesn't really look much better here

Not that I really understand much about this kind of thing (I don't even really understand why y'all think Axl's hair is so damn terrible, it mostly looks alright to me, though I don't pay it much attention), but I'm surprised no one has commented on that yet lol.

 

I hear you, but truth is that Slash can't really do anything about it. His hair/tophat combo is his trademark, he can't just go and cut it. Axl on the other hand...SOMETHING has to be done asap  

[Alja]

20 hours ago, killuridols said:

I don't think a mental disease or disorder can be "treated" by your family, no matter how loyal or caring they are. It also depends on the seriousness of the problem. Some things can be treated with an ambulatory treatment, therapy and family contention but other things, like addictions, need some kind of institutionalization (at least for a while).

I mean that if you live with loyal and caring near ones, it is more probable that they will find out that something is wrong and needs care which is over their abilities and encourage to find it. But more often you see that the one who had breakdown severe enough to be institutionalized is somehow the "most normal" one in craziness and sickness around. Problem is that many of them have nowhere else to go after their institutionalization is over. They are discharged home, fail to same downward spiral, breakdown again. State becomes chronic, personality flattens and deteriorates. How to work with these people is problem even in a country where everyone has healthcare insurance and access to care (different from USA, as far as I know, there is huge problem with people with mental diseases and no money).

There are acute states; but also I know few people even after severe delusional states who are now meds free, happy, living and working as anyone else - after they cut themselves from sick relationships, tided up their lives and learned to live with their susceptibility to breakdown again - same as junkies. They all need some kind of shelter - family or friends - no institution can provide in long run.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

1 hour ago, Jane M. said:

New music from SMKC (or anyone else) is better than nothing. 

My comment came across as snotty, probably cos I am when it comes to wanting GnR music above anything else 

Didnt meant to be so down on SMKC, good for their fans. 

[Frey]

1 hour ago, Jane M. said:

New music from SMKC (or anyone else) is better than nothing. 

4 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

My comment came across as snotty, probably cos I am when it comes to wanting GnR music above anything else 

Didnt meant to be so down on SMKC, good for their fans. 

Lol no, it's fine and I feel exactly the same.

New music from SMKC is definitely NOT better than nothing (for me), since I couldn't care less about it. I'll probably never listen to it and will only be vaguely aware it exists, so it basically amounts to the same as nothing for me.

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Frey

[BorderlineCrazy]

11 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

My comment came across as snotty, probably cos I am when it comes to wanting GnR music above anything else 

Didnt meant to be so down on SMKC, good for their fans. 

Yeah, shut up you Angus Young fan  

New music by Slash not being ruined by Frank sound like a great plan, btw!  I'm 300% sure this has nothing to do with SMKC, though.

Edited April 12, 2017 by BorderlineCrazy

[Jane M.]

14 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

My comment came across as snotty, probably cos I am when it comes to wanting GnR music above anything else 

Didnt meant to be so down on SMKC, good for their fans. 

I get you. We all want new GNR music. 

 

[killuridols]

3 minutes ago, Alja said:

I mean that if you live with loyal and caring near ones, it is more probable that they will find out that something is wrong and needs care which is over their abilities and encourage to find it. But more often you see that the one who had breakdown severe enough to be institutionalized is somehow the "most normal" one in craziness and sickness around. Problem is that many of them have nowhere else to go after their institutionalization is over. They are discharged home, fail to same downward spiral, breakdown again. State becomes chronic, personality flattens and deteriorates. How to work with these people is problem even in a country where everyone has healthcare insurance and access to care (different from USA, as far as I know, there is huge problem with people with mental diseases and no money).

Im sorry but the *bolded* is complete BS. You can't say something like that.
I don't know why there is this romantization of people with mental problems, sometimes associated with misunderstood geniouses and other "movie" type stories.... I'm sorry but to another dog with that bone

Not having where else to go it is another story. It is more related to people with alcohol or drug problems who end up in the streets and sometimes they are picked from the streets by some state organization or the police, either because they are causing problems or about to hurt themselves (or have hurt themselves already). People alone in the streets are a problem for society but it is the state that has to provide the help for these cases (well, in countries with a somewhat decent state presence).

23 minutes ago, Alja said:

There are acute states; but also I know few people even after severe delusional states who are now meds free, happy, living and working as anyone else - after they cut themselves from sick relationships, tided up their lives and learned to live with their susceptibility to breakdown again - same as junkies. They all need some kind of shelter - family or friends - no institution can provide in long run.

Of course not, but for that, you need a whole system working right and most of the time it doesnt.

You can have friends and family, but again, if you can't find a job after you've passed a period in the hospital, that's something you can't fix with love and happiness. Unless your family can help you find a job or employ you somewhere. It is the same as with people who get out of jail. The insertion back in society is very difficult.

And I really doubt that people with severe mental disease can become "meds free, happy, living and working as anyone else" just like that. Some diseases have no cure and you need medication for life. Doesn't mean you have to remain at the institution for a lifetime but a mental disease turns you into a person with a disability. In that case, you can apply to a pension for disability and remain at home with some person who can take care of you. I have no record of companies employing people with severe mental disease.

28 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

My comment came across as snotty, probably cos I am when it comes to wanting GnR music above anything else 

Didnt meant to be so down on SMKC, good for their fans. 

I'm with you

I couldn't give 3 flying fucks about SMKC music

Myles Kennedy gives me everytime I hear him so please, keep that shit away from my ears.

I want Guns N' Roses new music as well!

 

[KMS]

Hate to be joy killer, but I think it's probably not a recent photo - Slash is wearing different necklace recently and I think he wasn't wearing any shark teeth for a while now. I know it's pathetic that I know such a things, I should be ashamed of myself  And that's what he's wearing now.

 

[killuridols]

Just now, KMS said:

Hate to be joy killer, but I think it's probably not a recent photo - Slash is wearing different necklace recently and I think he wasn't wearing any shark teeth for a while now.

I have my doubts of it being a recent picture as well because of the caption posted by the engineer.

He says "Remembering an epic day, one of those that you will not ever forget".

People who don't speak Spanish do not pay attention to those words but when I read it I became doubtful.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

He posted it just before Christmas 

Did he just meet Slash? 

[killuridols]

Just now, MillionsOfSpiders said:

He posted it just before Christmas 

Did he just meet Slash? 

He says he met him on that day, December 23rd, 2016.

[stella]

2 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

He posted it just before Christmas 

Did he just meet Slash? 

 Looks like it. An interpretation of the Spanish would be: "Today I had the fortune to meet none other than Slash, guitarist of Guns N' Roses, who needs no introduction."

[Blackstar]

On 11/04/2017 at 8:44 PM, Frey said:

 

"Now that you've been broken down, get your head out of the clouds, back down on the ground, and you don't talk so loud, and you don't walk so proud, anymore..."

Honestly, everything that happened with Erin and Steph, Slash leaving, everyone else leaving, lots of his friends and family members dying, mental health issues, possible other health issues (as has often been speculated), the pressure to prove to the world that he can do it on his own, CD not being as well received as he might have hoped, Slash meanwhile becoming very popular and everyone's darling / VR,... That shit will wear a guy down. His looks fading/getting older might have been hard for him to deal with as well, since it was such a huge part of his identity and he was pretty vain.

I mean, if Doug Goldstein and so on are to be believed, Axl frequently spent his time in the mid 90s curled up in bed, crying and with a gun in his mouth. If you're in that bad of a place mentally, it will usually show on your body as well.  In 2002 he was still in such a bad place he supposedly considered admitting himself into psychiatric care and travelled with a psychiatrist to all shows. In 2006 he still had weird episodes and temper tantrums (like the Stockholm incident) and also had Sebastian Bach seriously worried he was going to jump out off a flying helicopter. So 2002-2006 was a bad time as well and his strange looks during that time probably reflect that.

And to be honest, things didn't really appear to become better after 2006 either. He put on a lot of weight, grew a weird moustache and started dressing in new and awful ways yet again. Also looked seriously dead-eyed, lifeless or over-medicated in most pictures and videos from that time.

Sometimes I get the impression the guy didn't just have a couple of shitty months or years, but more like a couple of really shitty decades

And if you listen to young Axl talk about the future and what he wanted/imagined his life to be like... well, what he got is very different from what he probably expected. Life not turning out as you'd hoped for is something many people struggle with. And his turned out especially shitty imo.

I agree with all this. And if we think about it, he wasn't happy for most of his life (if we count the fucked up childhood in).

On 11/04/2017 at 11:17 PM, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Im glad to be in the UK then  

We have the deprivation of liberty here for people with Alzheimer's and other types of Dementia, its really just used as a safeguarding measure to ensure there are trusted people who can make the right decisions for the poor soul who is suffering. 

Here, if a person is suicidal or presenting a danger to other people around them then they can just section you and they will take the person to hospital and then assess their needs. So I suppose I am looking at it from the point of view as to what is usual here 

I just think if he had episodes of being suicidal and being violent and hurting other people, then it would be the best thing. 

From what I've read, there it's all on the Health Care System and social services, and the judicial system is not much -if at all- involved (unless the person is charged with something or convicted). I guess there's a procedure in cases that are less self-evident than the ones you mentioned (people with dementia or, for example, people that have been repeatedly taken to hospital after trying to kill themselves) and need more proof, like a recommendation by social workers that a person should be taken to hospital to be examined for potential mental illness, then the psychiatrists decide if they should be kept in or not etc. I read that the people who are sectioned can appeal before a Health Tribunal.

The data in this are old, but it seems that the percentage of involuntary hospitalization in England (in relation to to the overall population in mental health institutions) hasn't been higher than in other EU countries.

--------

Here, since the 90s, a person can be taken to a mental institution involuntarily with an order by the Public Prosecutor, either after a request by a close relative and evaluations by two psychiatrists (or, in "emergency cases" just by the psychiatrists), but after 10 days max. there has to be a court hearing with the presence of the person involved who has the right to be represented by a lawyer and appoint their own independent psychiatrist. The general idea is for people to be held for as less time as possible and then, if treatment is needed, to be transferred to open mental health units where they can be monitored and taken care of without being locked up and isolated from the community (this doesn't apply to mentally ill offenders, who in general are sent to prison and then they may be placed in mental units inside). Unfortunately these units don't work properly due to lack of financing and there are problems. Still this system is an improvement compared to what was going on before, when there were less restrictions (which resulted to cases of people being arbitrarily locked up in hospitals) and the conditions in some of the public mental hospitals were a disgrace to human dignity.

On 11/04/2017 at 9:59 PM, killuridols said:

I always thought that was the right thing to do but people here got scandalized.... I guess they have no clue what that man was going through.

As one of the people (or the main one), I'll say that no one in this thread knows what Axl was really going through, because we don't know him and we all rely on bits of information that has been publicly available. We had/have different opinions based on the same information (as far as I can remember from the other discussion, you didn't bring any new info in regards to Axl's condition/deeds that was new and not already publicly known) and driven from our general beliefs/views on the subject.

My stance, as I think I made it clear in the other discussion, is that 1) I'm ideologically opposed to people being deprived of their freedom and hospitalized involuntarily, with the exception of cases a) when there is nothing else to be done, ie. people whose mental illness/condition poses a serious threat, like potential murderers, pedophiles etc (I also think that helpless people with e.g. dementia should be taken care of by the state, but this group is irrelevant to this discussion) b) of mentally ill convicts, who should be in hospital instead of prison. For people that might be dangerous to themselves there are other options. 2) Ι don't know enough about Axl's mental condition, since I don't know him personally and I'm not an expert. The bits I know (and we all know) don't place him in the categories I mentioned above; if people with similar behavior to his "should" be locked up, then this applies to a large part of the population, something I don't agree with. Moreover, this is a very serious subject and giving a positive answer assuming that a person we don't know might be a potential murderer is one of the things that cross the line, imho. 3) I don't think that this was ever really an option for Axl anyway (not just because of the label etc).

After the other discussion, I read some things about Argentina and I understand that you have formed your opinion having in mind how things are and work in your country. The sources I found are dated, but from what I understand a) at least until a few years ago de-institutionalization policies were non existent and institutionalizing people was the norm b) the procedures were quite "flexible". From what you said in your next post (the lengthy one), now there are more restrictions and the judicial system is more involved, but still the system (and the public opinion) lean towards institutionalization.

Anyway, I completely disagree with the views you have expressed on the matter. In particular, I can't stress enough how much I disagree with this:

On 12/04/2017 at 3:01 AM, killuridols said:

I think it is a long debate all around the world on what to do with people who suffer from mental instability (or just break the law) and constitute a danger to society. I really don't know what's best but it is not safe out there anymore. You dont know who is a nutjob walking the streets, or a rapist, or a murderer anymore. Yes, the system does fail and sometimes abuse innocent people and sometimes locks them for no valid reasons. However, I will always advocate for the freedom and protection of the sane and civilized ones.

And this all I'm gonna say. I don't want to criticize/debate this view further and thoroughly, as I see no point, so let's say we disagree on this subject and move on (if you choose to reply, I won't reply back).

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by Blackstar