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GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2


alfierose

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2 hours ago, highres said:
People do put their families first but Axl doesn't seem to have anyone putting him first unless he is in a love relationship.

Once he had a loving wife who was there before all the money and fame, who loved him for who he was and not for what he could give her.

But... you reap what you sow.

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32 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Once he had a loving wife who was there before all the money and fame, who loved him for who he was and not for what he could give her.

But... you reap what you sow.

The first big love leaves a long impression. They both will look for those innocent qualities in new mates.

It's quite possible Axl is on the right road to continual contentment. Things changed for Slash when he choose his happiness over a guilt complex. 

As fans, we just see TB have taken over every aspect of his life. The son calling the bands he plays in his bands, the mom talking about his love life flippantly, the daughter posting pictures of his tree in his backyard or the combo exposing his haunts. Del doesn't do that and he is with him on tours. TB have chosen to exploit him almost as way to establish ownership.

He is not a thing. I'm sure he likes them and appreciates them but they are not sharing to share him, they will never share him.

 

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1 hour ago, killuridols said:

I wouldn't be so sure he's unaware of being taken advantage of. Maybe deep inside he knows that in order to keep people around him he has to pay them. I think he knows he is a "pain in the ass", as he's described himself once, and because of that, the only way for him to have a social circle and a "family" will be this way. He seems unable to form and keep a normal relationship with a woman, so he might have given up on that for good.

I agree with you about what you say of Beta abusing her role and playing dangerously with the title of "mother". In my opinion, this is a very sick development and is one more sign to point this man is not well.

He's probably right when he says he's a survivor. Nowadays he's just surviving.

I don't know if anyone here has studied psychology but the only reason they might not ever detect the relationship is not healthy is because

this is typically resolved in couple's relationship counseling.  He may have sought religious teaching or even psychics. Neither is truth-based.

Axl might not have strong role models in his life either to guide him.  I only know a few couples myselfwith long and healthy love relationships.

Imagine a guy connected to Hollywood.

 

So here the scenario that might explain these dynamics in long-term relationship that don't allow growth.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

The Victim: The Victim's stance is "Poor me!" The Victim feels victimized, oppressed, helpless, hopeless, powerless, ashamed, and seems unable to make decisions, solve problems, take pleasure in life, or achieve insight. The Victim, if not being persecuted, will seek out a Persecutor and also a Rescuer who will save the day but also perpetuate the Victim's negative feelings.


The Rescuer: Karpman drama triangle
The rescuer's line is "Let me help you." A classic enabler, the Rescuer feels guilty if he/she doesn't go to the rescue. Yet his/her rescuing has negative effects: It keeps the Victim dependent and gives the Victim permission to fail. The rewards derived from this rescue role are that the focus is taken off of the rescuer. When he/she focuses their energy on someone else, it enables them to ignore their own anxiety and issues. This rescue role is also very pivotal because their actual primary interest is really an avoidance of their own problems disguised as concern for the victim’s needs.


The Persecutor: The Persecutor insists, "It's all your fault." The Persecutor is controlling, blaming, critical, oppressive, angry, authoritative, rigid, and superior.
Initially, a drama triangle arises when a person takes on the role of a victim or persecutor. This person then feels the need to enlist other players into the conflict. As often happens, a rescuer is encouraged to enter the situation. These enlisted players take on roles of their own that are not static, and therefore various scenarios can occur. For example, the victim might turn on the rescuer, the rescuer then switches to persecuting.

I can explain it better if anyone is interested or search articles on Karpman drama triangle. Axl is fine or will be fine if he breaks dependency if he rescuer/persecutor

will let him go without tipping the canoe with the help of her 2 biggest supporters.

 

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9 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

Is that how you really see it? It doesn't seem to me that he lacks love for the art. Working with other artists is proof of that.

Yes, that's how I see it. To me, love for art means to keep producing art for as long as you work as an artist. He's not producing anything on his own. He's reproducing what he once produced. 

What he did with ACDC it is cool but it is not his songs or his band.

13 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

Contrary to popular relief, the things you speak of are due to his maturing. He is not the same 24-29 year old kid full of anger and bitterness at the world. I highly doubt that those contingencies are in place because everyone is sober and lucid enough to treat each other like adults. I'm sure that Axl didn't put a "no dancing with Mr. Brownstone" clause in the contracts. 

Your concept of maturity is.... strange. I don't consider someone over 21 "a kid". He was late to shows during his 30s, his 40's and part of his 50's too. When I saw him in 2011, he was 49 years old and it took him 3 hours to go onstage.

Glad to know I still have plenty of time to "mature", lol.

19 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

But what I find really funny, is that no one is putting this kind of stigma on Slash and Duff. And we all know that Slash is/was in the middle of a nasty divorce. However, no one thinks He's doing it for money and not love of art.  Not trying to say that Axl can do no wrong, but let's be real and call a spade a spade.

Maybe that's because we always talk about Axl, not Slash or Duff. :shrugs:

I think it is very possible Slash is doing it for the money too. The difference is that Slash and Duff are not in charge of Guns N' Roses anymore, so all decisions regarding music, touring, legacy, etc are still on Axl's shoulders. And GN'R is Axl's solely music project, while Slash and Duff have had long solo careers outside GN'R and they keep working and doing things outside GN'R, so no one can really say they do not produce material or are stagnant in their careers. Not to mention Duff has also started writing books and columns for newspapers.

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5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Yes, that's how I see it. To me, love for art means to keep producing art for as long as you work as an artist. He's not producing anything on his own. He's reproducing what he once produced. 

What he did with ACDC it is cool but it is not his songs or his band.

Your concept of maturity is.... strange. I don't consider someone over 21 "a kid". He was late to shows during his 30s, his 40's and part of his 50's too. When I saw him in 2011, he was 49 years old and it took him 3 hours to go onstage.

Glad to know I still have plenty of time to "mature", lol.

Maybe that's because we always talk about Axl, not Slash or Duff. :shrugs:

I think it is very possible Slash is doing it for the money too. The difference is that Slash and Duff are not in charge of Guns N' Roses anymore, so all decisions regarding music, touring, legacy, etc are still on Axl's shoulders. And GN'R is Axl's solely music project, while Slash and Duff have had long solo careers outside GN'R and they keep working and doing things outside GN'R, so no one can really say they do not produce material or are stagnant in their careers. Not to mention Duff has also started writing books and columns for newspapers.

How is my concept of maturity strange? And yes I still call anyone under 30 kid.  As far as Duff is concerned, what did it take for him to start telling his story? He had to almost die in order to see things clearly. Slash may have been making music, but he was still on a downward spiral as well. My point being, that although they were performing and such, they were barely able to keep themselves relevant and alive....no matter how you look at it.

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28 minutes ago, highres said:

The son calling the bands he plays in his bands

Looooool :lol:

Unfortunately, I still remember that :facepalm: and I don't know what to tell you about that..... This is also Axl's fault because Fernando was a teenager when he moved in with Axl so everything he is nowadays is also Axl's hand there.... He shaped him and prepared him to become GN'R manager and Axl has probably filled Fernando's head with tales of Slash, Duff and the rest being useless drunktards and drugaddicts  who were greedy and wanted to destroy the band.

Fernando is a product of being raised by Axl, somehow... :shrugs:

19 minutes ago, highres said:

Axl is fine or will be fine if he breaks dependency if he rescuer/persecutor will let him go without tipping the canoe with the help of her 2 biggest supporters.

I don't think this will happen, like.... ever....

For him to do that, he'd need to build a whole new network of friends and people he can trust so he can leave TB. They are not only his "family" but also the people in charge of his business. Getting rid of them would bring terrible consequences for his life, lots of lawsuits and problems. Unless he had a really good reason to kick them out I don't see it happening anytime soon.

A family of his own could be the solution but the older you get the harder it is to make new friends and find a life partner.

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32 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

How is my concept of maturity strange? And yes I still call anyone under 30 kid.  As far as Duff is concerned, what did it take for him to start telling his story? He had to almost die in order to see things clearly. Slash may have been making music, but he was still on a downward spiral as well. My point being, that although they were performing and such, they were barely able to keep themselves relevant and alive....no matter how you look at it.

Velvet Revolver was not a relevant project? :question:

Duff is an example of someone who was biting the dust and by his own will and self-power was able to rise above and become a healthy person, clean himself, reset his life and move on. He didn't hold grudges for decades and he kept working in his person to fix all the things he didn't like about himself. I don't know how that man can be criticized for making a 180° turn in life for good :facepalm:

Slash was a heavy drugaddict who died for a couple minutes and returned to life miraculously. In spite of that, he became one of the most important guitarists in rock history and his popularity nowadays is way bigger than Axl's. He's worked with tons of musicians and artists, some of them are among the top artists of all times. You should inform yourself better if you're going to criticize the solo career of Slash.

Both Slash and Duff, in spite of all of their personal problems, kept themselves producing music, releasing solo material, performing with other artists and playing in their albums for all the time they were out of GN'R. That makes a total of 20 years being productive... "no matter how you look at it".

 

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1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Velvet Revolver was not a relevant project? :question:

Duff is an example of someone who was biting the dust and by his own will and self-power was able to rise above and become a healthy person, clean himself, reset his life and move on. He didn't hold grudges for decades and he kept working in his person to fix all the things he didn't like about himself. I don't know how that man can be criticized for making a 180° turn in life for good :facepalm:

Slash was a heavy drugaddict who died for a couple minutes and returned to life miraculously. In spite of that, he became one of the most important guitarists in rock history and his popularity nowadays is way bigger than Axl's. He's worked with tons of musicians and artists, some of them are among the top artists of all times. You should inform yourself better if you're going to criticize the solo career of Slash.

Both Slash and Duff, in spite of all of their personal problems, kept themselves producing music, releasing solo material, performing with other artists and playing in their albums for all the time they were out of GN'R. That makes a total of 20 years being productive... "no matter how you look at it".

 

Blah...blah...blah...you are missing my point,  physically they were barely keeping themselves relevant and ALIVE. This has dick all to do with rather they were producing music or not, it wouldn't have been worth a damn if they hadn't lived to finish it. And by no means am I criticizing either one of them for turning their lives around, but if we're going to tally off Axl's shortcomings, let's run all of the guys down.

Again... Not saying Axl is perfect or God...I just think it's time to stop pointing fingers and look at everyone. 

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59 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

Blah...blah...blah...you are missing my point,  physically they were barely keeping themselves relevant and ALIVE. This has dick all to do with rather they were producing music or not, it wouldn't have been worth a damn if they hadn't lived to finish it. And by no means am I criticizing either one of them for turning their lives around, but if we're going to tally off Axl's shortcomings, let's run all of the guys down.

Again... Not saying Axl is perfect or God...I just think it's time to stop pointing fingers and look at everyone. 

I'm not missing your point BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO POINT AT ALL. :rofl-lol:

You know nothing about these guys and you are trying to put them down for being productive even when their health system was failing. 

None of what you say makes one dick of sense (to use your own words) because they both overcame their health problems a long time ago. "What would have been" means jack shit because THEY DID LIVE to move on after Guns N' Roses. Maybe that's what bothers you and you wish they were dead :no:

There is nothing to point at Duff and Slash for leaving the band when they felt they had to. They moved on and went living their lives. Get over it.

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28 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

Blah...blah...blah...you are missing my point,  physically they were barely keeping themselves relevant and ALIVE. This has dick all to do with rather they were producing music or not, it wouldn't have been worth a damn if they hadn't lived to finish it. And by no means am I criticizing either one of them for turning their lives around, but if we're going to tally off Axl's shortcomings, let's run all of the guys down.

Again... Not saying Axl is perfect or God...I just think it's time to stop pointing fingers and look at everyone. 

I don't think I'm getting what you're saying. When were Slash and Duff BARELY KEEPING THEMSELVES ALIVE? For the last 20 years, Duff McKagan has been one of the healthiest persons in the whole world. It might have taken longer for Slash to clean himself up but he did many years ago and he hasn't been close to dying at all in the last 15 years or so (which is incredible considering how close he was a couple of times before).

I don't believe anyone here would approve or endorse their stupid and reckless substance abuse but that's something very old and that has changed (apparently for good). From what I see, some people is criticizing Axl not for what he did when he was young but for not evolving (I'm not assuring he hasn't, that's what's being said) or not turning his life around like the others did. 

Also, I might be completely wrong but my impression is that most of the people who post on this thread are either bigger fans of Axl than of the other members or at least find him more interesting or something like that. That's why 98% of the time the discussions revolve around him, not to protect Slash. Actually, I think @killuridols yesterday posted that she couldn't care less about new SMKC music (which is fn' blasphemy if you ask me :max:) and even used the vomit emoticon when talking about Myles. She's clearly more interested in hearing new music from Axl than from Slash but that doesn't mean she can change the fact that Slash has been very productive and has had a great career after leaving GNR (at least since VR) while Axl only managed to release one album and his career has gone downhill until the reunion. Again, I believe this is the case with most people in this thread, they're coming from the same place regardless of having different opinions and different ways of expressing them.

6 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Maybe that's what bothers you and you wish they were dead :no:

WHAT?! Why would you say something like that? :shocked::thumbsdown:

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On 4/8/2017 at 7:08 PM, Fansince88 said:

I'm really tired, so maybe I'm missing something, but the only Arby's I know is the roast beef fast food place. Is that where this was taken? I'm so confused. 

Always a day late but yes this is Arby's the fast food place. We have several near us.

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2 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

WHAT?! Why would you say something like that? :shocked::thumbsdown:

Because of the ignorant way she expressed herself when talking about the health of Slash and Duff. She tried very hard to make it look like their problems are still an issue and completely disregard the things they accomplished, even when they were not so healthy. 

Dont need to give me the thumbs down for this.

----

Regarding fandom and Axl, I agree with you and that is my perception as well. In my case, I like Axl and Guns N' Roses much more than the side/solo projects of the other original members (except for Izzy maybe, I like his stuff) and I don't like SMKC because I don't like Myles Kennedy voice and I fail to see how that's a blasphemy  :question: but I did like Velvet Revolver and some other Slash collaborations.

However, me being more of a GN'R fan has not prevented me from being informed about the work of Slash, Duff and Izzy (not so much Adler) and follow their solo careers from a side of the road. I am not ignorant of what they were doing until the "reunion", the same way I did not quit GN'R when Slash and Duff left.

I like all of the original members and I will always be a Guns N' Roses fan. They are my primary band of choice, over solo projects, but I don't have my head in my ass believing Axl is perfect and the others are irrelevant musicians without a trajectory.

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10 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Because of the ignorant way she expressed herself when talking about the health of Slash and Duff. She tried very hard to make it look like their problems are still an issue and completely disregard the things they accomplished, even when they were not so healthy. 

Dont need to give me the thumbs down for this.

Well, unless I misunderstood her comment, I disagree as well but claiming she wishes Slash and Duff died is wrong and unnecessary IMO. I'm sure she could never wish something like that.

18 minutes ago, killuridols said:

 I don't like SMKC because I don't like Myles Kennedy voice and I fail to see how that's a blasphemy  :question: 

Hmm, let's see, how can I explain you? IT WAS A JOKE!!!!! :bitchfight:

20 minutes ago, killuridols said:

However, me being more of a GN'R fan has not prevented me from being informed about the work of Slash, Duff and Izzy (not so much Adler) and follow their solo careers from a side of the road. I am not ignorant of what they were doing until the "reunion", the same way I did not quit GN'R when Slash and Duff left.

I like all of the original members and I will always be a Guns N' Roses fan. They are my primary band of choice, over solo projects, but I don't have my head in my ass believing Axl is perfect and the others are irrelevant musicians without a trajectory.

I know and that's something I really like and appreciate about you. I really like how you are a fan despite the things that you don't like, taking the good with the bad, instead of pretending everything is perfect. Right or wrong, you're completely unbiased and you don't sugarcoat your comments/opinions because you like the person you're talking about.

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29 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Well, unless I misunderstood her comment, I disagree as well but claiming she wishes Slash and Duff died is wrong and unnecessary IMO. I'm sure she could never wish something like that.

I didn't claim anything. You have to READ AGAIN because I started my sentence with "Maybe"... I said "maybe you wish", so that makes it an assumption not an affirmation.

I said that because it was my impression that she was looking for something negative, even if that element wasn't there, to make Axl look better.

She said all the guys had to be ran down equally, so that Axl is not the only one who gets crucified for his mistakes.

She tried fiercely to turn a positive outcome into a negative one and started talking about "what would have been" if Slash and Duff had not survived. Therefore, I assumed that maybe she had momentarily wished they had not been alive, so she could make a point and justify this argument we were having... (the point she said I kept missing from her first comment).

I'm not sure about anything regarding any person from this forum, but sometimes it feels like some people will throw anyone under a bus, just for the sake of winning an argument. It is very hostile around here, in case you haven't realized (but I know you have).

 

29 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

I know and that's something I really like and appreciate about you. I really like how you are a fan despite the things that you don't like, taking the good with the bad, instead of pretending everything is perfect. Right or wrong, you're completely unbiased and you don't sugarcoat your comments/opinions because you like the person you're talking about.

Thank you :)

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19 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I didn't claim anything. You have to READ AGAIN because I started my sentence with "Maybe"... I said "maybe you wish", so that makes it an assumption not an affirmation.

I said that because it was my impression that she was looking for something negative, even if that element wasn't there, to make Axl look better.

She said all the guys had to be ran down equally, so that Axl is not the only one who gets crucified for his mistakes.

She tried fiercely to turn a positive outcome into a negative one and started talking about "what would have been" if Slash and Duff had not survived. Therefore, I assumed that maybe she had momentarily wished they had not been alive, so she could make a point and justify this argument we were having... (the point she said I kept missing from her first comment).

Now I understand it better what you meant, not how it sounded to me when I first read it. I'm glad you clarified it.

27 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I'm not sure about anything regarding any person from this forum, but sometimes it feels like some people will throw anyone under a bus, just for the sake of winning an argument. It is very hostile around here, in case you haven't realized (but I know you have).

Oh yeah, I have. I'm actually pretty surprised that Izzy and Steven are still alive after all the buses they've been thrown under lately :lol:

I don't think the forum is THAT hostile, though (except for some people like that guy who got suspended a few days ago) but maybe people is tougher with you because you're grumpy ^_^

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2 hours ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

I don't think I'm getting what you're saying. When were Slash and Duff BARELY KEEPING THEMSELVES ALIVE? For the last 20 years, Duff McKagan has been one of the healthiest persons in the whole world. It might have taken longer for Slash to clean himself up but he did many years ago and he hasn't been close to dying at all in the last 15 years or so (which is incredible considering how close he was a couple of times before).

Yeah, with the heart issues Slash has had, he's been very lucky. I did read that he didn't quit smoking for 8 years after his diagnosis with heart issues and getting a pacemaker, and that just makes me :facepalm: But I've also heard that smoking is one of the most difficult addictions to beat.

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6 minutes ago, stella said:

Yeah, with the heart issues Slash has had, he's been very lucky. I did read that he didn't quit smoking for 8 years after his diagnosis with heart issues and getting a pacemaker, and that just makes me :facepalm: But I've also heard that smoking is one of the most difficult addictions to beat.

Yeah, I remember him talking about it. He said something like it was easy to quit drugs and booze, he got tired of them and just made the decision but cigarettes were extremely difficult. He was using Nicorette (if my memory serves, he claimed he wouldn't be able without it) and he said the other thing that helped him was twitter. I think he used to stay busy answering fans there back then and said he used to have a box of cigarettes in his hand all the time so now he had replaced it with his cell phone and twitter :lol:

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5 hours ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

I don't think I'm getting what you're saying. When were Slash and Duff BARELY KEEPING THEMSELVES ALIVE? For the last 20 years, Duff McKagan has been one of the healthiest persons in the whole world. It might have taken longer for Slash to clean himself up but he did many years ago and he hasn't been close to dying at all in the last 15 years or so (which is incredible considering how close he was a couple of times before).

I don't believe anyone here would approve or endorse their stupid and reckless substance abuse but that's something very old and that has changed (apparently for good). From what I see, some people is criticizing Axl not for what he did when he was young but for not evolving (I'm not assuring he hasn't, that's what's being said) or not turning his life around like the others did. 

Also, I might be completely wrong but my impression is that most of the people who post on this thread are either bigger fans of Axl than of the other members or at least find him more interesting or something like that. That's why 98% of the time the discussions revolve around him, not to protect Slash. Actually, I think @killuridols yesterday posted that she couldn't care less about new SMKC music (which is fn' blasphemy if you ask me :max:) and even used the vomit emoticon when talking about Myles. She's clearly more interested in hearing new music from Axl than from Slash but that doesn't mean she can change the fact that Slash has been very productive and has had a great career after leaving GNR (at least since VR) while Axl only managed to release one album and his career has gone downhill until the reunion. Again, I believe this is the case with most people in this thread, they're coming from the same place regardless of having different opinions and different ways of expressing them.

WHAT?! Why would you say something like that? :shocked::thumbsdown:

What I meant by barely keeping themselves alive, WAS because of the drinking and drugs they abused their bodies with for long periods of time. I REPEAT....I AM IN NO WAY CRITICIZING EITHER OF THEM FOR GETTING HEALTHY....this is the third time I'm saying this now. And fuck no I would never wish death on anyone. My whole point is, three or more days alone have been spent speculating and debating Axl's mental health which involves talking about things he's done in his past, but no one thinks it's right or fair to do the same with the others because they have all done questionable things. 

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1 hour ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

 And fuck no I would never wish death on anyone. My whole point is, three or more days alone have been spent speculating and debating Axl's mental health which involves talking about things he's done in his past, but no one thinks it's right or fair to do the same with the others because they have all done questionable things. 

You've dedicated your life to protecting the lives of your country, so this kind of sentiment would never be in your heart. 

Keeping in mind the discussion a few weeks ago about some problems in this thread, perhaps it's time to give this topic a rest for a few days? 

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