GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[Jane M.]

5 hours ago, killuridols said:

Lol I just came across a nightmare of many of you, especially @Andy14 

He looks like George Michaels (may he RIP). 

[Blackstar]

This is from the local Lafayette newspaper archive (Dec. 1961). After some thought I decided that it's ok to share it, since there are already other pictures of Axl's family around the internet (and this one is on the public domain anyway).

The similarity is striking, isn't it...

Edited April 20, 2017 by Blackstar

[Ratam]

8 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

This is from the local Lafayette newspaper archive (Dec. 1961). After some thought I decided that it's ok to share it, since there are already other pictures of Axl's family around the internet (and this one is on the public domain anyway).

The similarity is striking, isn't it...

Awesome! Very similar Axl nice woman

[Whiskey Rose]

Wow. @Blackstar, great great find. He looks exactly like her.

[marlingrl03]

42 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

This is from the local Lafayette newspaper archive (Dec. 1961). After some thought I decided that it's ok to share it, since there are already other pictures of Axl's family around the internet (and this one is on the public domain anyway).

The similarity is striking, isn't it...

I would say so....wow! Thanks so much for sharing, that pic is great. 

[killuridols]

Woooh @Blackstar, that's uncanny!

I think I could put together a pic comparison quick thing

[Blackstar]

Some more information from the local newspaper's archive:

- Axl's father was 2 years older than his mother (and the stepfather 2 years younger, as we know already)

- There were two children at the time of the parents' divorce.

- Reports about the father being arrested with various charges.

- Pictures of Axl's uncle Jerry (his mom's brother) - he doesn't look like any of the men on the blurry pics.

- The grandparents were divorced early.

[Ratam]

7 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Some more information from the local newspaper's archive:

- Axl's father was 2 years older than his mother (and the stepfather 2 years younger, as we know already)

- There were two children at the time of the parents' divorce.

- Reports about the father being arrested with various charges.

- Pictures of Axl's uncle Jerry (his mom's brother) - he doesn't look like any of the men on the blurry pics.

- The grandparents were divorced early.

Very good information,Axl  same cheekbone  his mother?

[killuridols]

Let's see...

I also used the yearbook pic we had before

 

_{The text is for places like AN and IG accounts that like to steal shit from here and spread lies.}

 

[marlingrl03]

2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Let's see...

I also used the yearbook pic we had before

 

_{The text is for places like AN and IG accounts that like to steal shit from here and spread lies.}

 

Sad we have to do that.....

[MillionsOfSpiders]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

Some more information from the local newspaper's archive:

- Axl's father was 2 years older than his mother (and the stepfather 2 years younger, as we know already)

- There were two children at the time of the parents' divorce.

- Reports about the father being arrested with various charges.

- Pictures of Axl's uncle Jerry (his mom's brother) - he doesn't look like any of the men on the blurry pics.

- The grandparents were divorced early.

We know for definite now that Amy was born before Axl's mum married his step father. 

What a situation for such a young girl to be in with two babies  

[killuridols]

20 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

We know for definite now that Amy was born before Axl's mum married his step father. 

What a situation for such a young girl to be in with two babies  

Yeah... see? This is why I wanted to know more about her and her situation.

I don't wanna blame her for things that maybe were out of her hands.

Not saying that Axl isn't right about certain things, but now I know he's not 100% right about her and that she didn't deserve to be called 'c---'

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Not saying that Axl isn't right about certain things, but now I know he's not 100% right about her and that she didn't deserve to be called 'c---'

These are Izzy's lyrics.

[stella]

3 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Some more information from the local newspaper's archive:

- Axl's father was 2 years older than his mother (and the stepfather 2 years younger, as we know already)

- There were two children at the time of the parents' divorce.

- Reports about the father being arrested with various charges.

- Pictures of Axl's uncle Jerry (his mom's brother) - he doesn't look like any of the men on the blurry pics.

- The grandparents were divorced early.

There's such a resemblance between Axl and his mother in that photo, and this is great information.

Also that newspaper clip mentions they were married in a Lutheran church, and Lutherans are, AFAIK, a relatively laid back denomination - so the strict, very religious Pentecostal stuff must have come in with the stepfather.

It's also really interesting that all of this was apparently kept from Axl and his siblings - since he said he didn't know about his biological father until he was a teenager. In today's world this stuff would all be on the Internet and one Google search would bring it up, probably. Even back then, though...there's so much gossip in small towns. For Axl and his siblings not to know this, it seems like a lot of people would have needed to resolve not to talk about it. And it makes even more sense as to why there would have been anger when the truth did come out - it must have been such a huge thing for Axl to find out that everyone had kept this secret from him.

Edited April 20, 2017 by stella

[Blackstar]

31 minutes ago, stella said:

Also that newspaper clip mentions they were married in a Lutheran church, and Lutherans are, AFAIK, a relatively laid back denomination - so the strict, very religious Pentecostal stuff must have come in with the stepfather.

Yes, the Lintner family was religious (Axl's grandmother was an active member of the Lutheran church, and from a report I read it seems that his mother was also involved in this church's activities as a young girl), but no way the kind that his stepfather was.

31 minutes ago, stella said:

It's also really interesting that all of this was apparently kept from Axl and his siblings - since he said he didn't know about his biological father until he was a teenager. In today's world this stuff would all be on the Internet and one Google search would bring it up, probably. Even back then, though...there's so much gossip in small towns. For Axl and his siblings not to know this, it seems like a lot of people would have needed to resolve not to talk about it.

Yes, this too. And all the social life of the town (marriages, divorces, court cases etc.) was in the local newspaper, so many people knew. I've been also thinking that some of the people in the local police dept. were likely old enough to know whose son Axl's was and this probably, considering the small town mentality (combined with the police mentality, at least back then), played a role on how he was treated by the police there.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Blackstar

[stella]

4 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, the Lintner family was religious (Axl's grandmother was an active member of the Lutheran church, and from a report I read it seems that his mother was also involved in this church's activities as a young girl), but no way the kind that his stepfather was.

Yes, this too. And all the social life of the town (marriages, divorces, court cases etc.) was in the local newspaper, so many people knew. I've been also thinking that some of the people in the local police dept. were likely old enough to know whose son Axl's was and this probably, considering the small town mentality, played a role on how he was treated by the police there.

That makes a lot of sense, re: the churches. Lutherans definitely aren't fire-and-brimstone types, so even if she was there a lot, I would guess it must have been a much less extreme environment.

And that is such a good point regarding the police department. It would have been less than 20 years later...it would have been recent enough for many of the police officers to remember the father. I would guess that their attitude toward Axl might have been influenced really heavily due to that. The same might have been true with teachers in the local schools. If Axl thought they were coming down on him especially harshly and were out to get him - well, that might have been true and it might have had nothing at all to do with him.

[SerenityScorp]

Not too different 

3 hours ago, SerenityScorp said:

Female Izzy is so beautiful 

Meanwhile Izzy

[Alja]

5 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, this too. And all the social life of the town (marriages, divorces, court cases etc.) was in the local newspaper, so many people knew. I've been also thinking that some of the people in the local police dept. were likely old enough to know whose son Axl's was and this probably, considering the small town mentality (combined with the police mentality, at least back then), played a role on how he was treated by the police there.

3 hours ago, stella said:

That makes a lot of sense, re: the churches. Lutherans definitely aren't fire-and-brimstone types, so even if she was there a lot, I would guess it must have been a much less extreme environment.

And that is such a good point regarding the police department. It would have been less than 20 years later...it would have been recent enough for many of the police officers to remember the father. I would guess that their attitude toward Axl might have been influenced really heavily due to that. The same might have been true with teachers in the local schools. If Axl thought they were coming down on him especially harshly and were out to get him - well, that might have been true and it might have had nothing at all to do with him.

Still thinking of how they could manage kids not to know, even if Axl had some early memories which did not fit. 

Thinking of this: A first in a small town with strong religious background, he had bad reputation even before he was born. He was conceived outside marriage. Here even it`s 21st century some strictly religious parents encourage their kids not to play with the ones who are conceived or born outside marriage or their parents are divorced. Bullying is overlooked (or even encouraged), because these kids are hopeless bad apples anyway. Maybe this also added to fact he almost ended up life-sentence as "habitual criminal", child of sinner and local criminal.

There was an interview with his former teachers and neighbors in Lafayette. Sincerely, until that I was thinking that the style of bullying and teachers doing nothing in american movies and so is plain hyperbole. Holy sh*t, I was wrong. High School Coach (paraphrasing): "Yeah, I don't know what this kid's problem is. I mean the other kids only taped his mouth shut and shoved him in a locker and--- what was that? What did I do to stop them? Oh, nothing!"

In religious community a person like Mr.Bailey can be taken as a savior of fallen woman and her bastard kids. These kids are rotten anyway because of the way they came to this world, so abusive behavior can be interchanged with raising bad apples to god`s glory and obedience.

If you are talented they will hate you, if you "waste" it and not use the way they want. Or plainly hate you because you got what they didn`t.

I would take the fact of him being bastard child as a strong influence in behavior of teachers and policemen towards him (policemen and teachers lower than college are often people with extreme sense for "what is right" and restless effort to make others appropriate. Other thing is that is often not difficult to outsmart them. When you are smart kid, in like 15 years you definitely find out that most people you meet are less smart than you, which adds to your lacking of respect towards authority, `cause smart kid with attitude  ).

It`s late 60s or 70s, anti-establishment movements and protests are raging, what seemed to be stable world order at least for century, under one god, is shaking in its foundations, post-WWII generation grew adult, people are openly asking if god is necessary, all that hippie free love and later disillusion, eastern religion stuff, plain fear of atheism-communism of cold war, new media, wild, filthy music - it all crashed in and the authorities in a small town are into, is to defend their diminishing world against it. 

Bold, provocative, impulsive teenager fed up with hypocrisy and who couldn`t fit in any box. Of course he drove them nuts more than anyone else around (they smell who is after all inoffensive dumbass and who has real attitude).

(Interview, 1991) Nearby, Rose stepped back from the sunlight and paused in the hotel room.

"You know, it's strange," he says. "In some ways I hate the way I was raised . . . the lack of support for anything I was into or good at. But in some ways I can't hate it because it gave me this sense of drive . . . this mission to do something with my life."

[killuridols]

46 minutes ago, Alja said:

When you are smart kid, in like 15 years you definitely find out that most people you meet are less smart than you, which adds to your lacking of respect towards authority, `cause smart kid with attitude  ).

Smart kid realizes they are smarter than the rest at young age.

Disrespecting authority has nothing to do with being smart.

[stella]

1 hour ago, Alja said:

Still thinking of how they could manage kids not to know, even if Axl had some early memories which did not fit. 

Thinking of this: A first in a small town with strong religious background, he had bad reputation even before he was born. He was conceived outside marriage. Here even it`s 21st century some strictly religious parents encourage their kids not to play with the ones who are conceived or born outside marriage or their parents are divorced. Bullying is overlooked (or even encouraged), because these kids are hopeless bad apples anyway. Maybe this also added to fact he almost ended up life-sentence as "habitual criminal", child of sinner and local criminal.

There was an interview with his former teachers and neighbors in Lafayette. Sincerely, until that I was thinking that the style of bullying and teachers doing nothing in american movies and so is plain hyperbole. Holy sh*t, I was wrong. High School Coach (paraphrasing): "Yeah, I don't know what this kid's problem is. I mean the other kids only taped his mouth shut and shoved him in a locker and--- what was that? What did I do to stop them? Oh, nothing!"

In religious community a person like Mr.Bailey can be taken as a savior of fallen woman and her bastard kids. These kids are rotten anyway because of the way they came to this world, so abusive behavior can be interchanged with raising bad apples to god`s glory and obedience.

If you are talented they will hate you, if you "waste" it and not use the way they want. Or plainly hate you because you got what they didn`t.

I would take the fact of him being bastard child as a strong influence in behavior of teachers and policemen towards him (policemen and teachers lower than college are often people with extreme sense for "what is right" and restless effort to make others appropriate. Other thing is that is often not difficult to outsmart them. When you are smart kid, in like 15 years you definitely find out that most people you meet are less smart than you, which adds to your lacking of respect towards authority, `cause smart kid with attitude  ).

It`s late 60s or 70s, anti-establishment movements and protests are raging, what seemed to be stable world order at least for century, under one god, is shaking in its foundations, post-WWII generation grew adult, people are openly asking if god is necessary, all that hippie free love and later disillusion, eastern religion stuff, plain fear of atheism-communism of cold war, new media, wild, filthy music - it all crashed in and the authorities in a small town are into, is to defend their diminishing world against it. 

Bold, provocative, impulsive teenager fed up with hypocrisy and who couldn`t fit in any box. Of course he drove them nuts more than anyone else around (they smell who is after all inoffensive dumbass and who has real attitude).

(Interview, 1991) Nearby, Rose stepped back from the sunlight and paused in the hotel room.

"You know, it's strange," he says. "In some ways I hate the way I was raised . . . the lack of support for anything I was into or good at. But in some ways I can't hate it because it gave me this sense of drive . . . this mission to do something with my life."

I think this is a pretty spot on assessment. I don't know that Axl would have been considered to be a "bastard" or born out of wedlock because he wasn't - obviously anyone could have done the math from the marriage to birth, but he still was born with all the legal standing as any other kid. But I do think that whatever judgment or poor opinions people in his town had about his parents probably really trailed after him and contributed a lot to the way he was targeted.

They wanted to charge Axl with being a habitual criminal, and there's more than one person who has mentioned that the police unfairly picked on him...and by all accounts the crimes he was committing were things like fighting and disturbing the peace, which are pretty minor in the scheme of things. There definitely seems like there was a huge vendetta there.

Bullying here really isn't exaggerated or a joke at all, no...there are kids who are physically assaulted and emotionally tortured to the point where they kill themselves, end up with a lifetime of trauma, or snap and kill others. And even though there's supposed to be more awareness for it now, it still comes down to the fact that a lot of the time, teachers do absolutely fucking nothing to stop it, or they actually encourage it. Plenty of the teachers are bullies too. When I was in school the teachers shrugged if a kid got beaten up or harassed, even if the parents complained. And I very much remember having teachers who targeted certain kids in their classes and picked on them mercilessly. One year I was the target of my teacher; another year there was another girl who was literally driven from the school because the teacher was so savage to her.

I remember that my friends and I were told by our parents that if another kid hit us, we needed to hit them back. We all knew going to the teachers would do nothing, and the only way to stop being attacked was to let the other kid know that you could and would defend yourself.

So it's not a surprise that Axl's teachers and coaches did nothing about the bullying and don't see a problem with doing nothing.

And yeah, especially in that era, in that part of the USA (which is still pretty religious and conservative even now), someone who got pregnant would had have really no viable choice but to either get married or leave town. There definitely would have been people who would have vilified any girl who had sex outside of marriage, even if she got married later, and considered them "bad" or "damaged goods." Getting divorced in the early 60s was pretty scandalous too, even in major cities. Husband who keeps getting arrested? That would reflect back on the wife and kids, too. And of course in that era if there were any sort of domestic abuse or child abuse going on, it was totally ignored.

So there would have been a ton of judgment heaped on Axl's mom, which must have been absolutely horrible for her.

Going toward a super-religious community may have seemed like a refuge - there's the idea in many evangelical Christian communities that if you come to God, all your sins are forgiven. But meanwhile they will also be held over your head and you are shamed relentlessly for them, and it's supposed to be your duty to repent for them. Some of those communities openly believe that beating your kids is somehow "Biblical" and that the male head of the household has the right to run it however harshly he pleases.

It sounds like a horrible situation to grow up in.

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by stella

[Alja]

2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Smart kid realizes they are smarter than the rest at young age.

Disrespecting authority has nothing to do with being smart.

You were born prodigy (at local terms, at least). You are extra in arts or science or whatever if you compare yourself with other kids, you pass with little or no effort. You are little gem wining prizes. 

At around 14-15 you are definitively out of childhood in two things: you have to proof your talent (arts, science, whatever) outside "little league", among adults, or leave it. You are not little gem wining prizes anymore.  Second thing is that when you are a kid, you know that adults know more than you. They have all the answers. Mostly it is given by their longer experience with things. But in like this age you find out that most of them have no clue and live in... autopilot? mode. They don`t think anymore, don`t question, and most of all they insist on "knowing things" and "doing the right things" even if you proof them wrong (just get irritated). They can`t say "I don`t know" and they don`t have answers. They just set rules or mostly follow existing rules without asking them. These smart kids often do have problem with authorities just because of that, that`s the driving power. They can proof you dumb in public with enjoyment as n extra. That`s provoking authorities more than anything.

Every teenage has problems with authority, they will proof you. Dumb kids provoke dumb way (they have no cause and don`t think further). Soon they become as same as adults they were rebelling against.

[Alja]

10 minutes ago, stella said:

I think this is a pretty spot on assessment. I don't know that Axl would have been considered to be a "bastard" or born out of wedlock because he wasn't - obviously anyone could have done the math from the marriage to birth, but he still was born with all the legal standing as any other kid. But I do think that whatever judgment or poor opinions people in his town had about his parents probably really trailed after him and contributed a lot to the way he was targeted.

They wanted to charge Axl with being a habitual criminal, and there's more than one person who has mentioned that the police unfairly picked on him...and by all accounts the crimes he was committing were things like fighting and disturbing the peace, which are pretty minor in the scheme of things. There definitely seems like there was a huge vendetta there.

Bullying here really isn't exaggerated or a joke at all, no...there are kids who are physically assaulted and emotionally tortured to the point where they kill themselves, end up with a lifetime of trauma, or snap and kill others. And even though there's supposed to be more awareness for it now, it still comes down to the fact that a lot of the time, teachers do absolutely fucking nothing to stop it, or they actually encourage it. Plenty of the teachers are bullies too. When I was in school the teachers shrugged if a kid got beaten up or harassed, even if the parents complained. And I very much remember having teachers who targeted certain kids in their classes and picked on them mercilessly. One year I was the target of my teacher; another year there was another girl who was literally driven from the school because the teacher was so savage to her.

I remember that my friends and I were told by our parents that if another kid hit us, we needed to hit them back. We all knew going to the teachers would do nothing, and the only way to stop being attacked was to let the other kid know that you could and would defend yourself.

So it's not a surprise that Axl's teachers and coaches did nothing about the bullying and don't see a problem with doing nothing.

And yeah, especially in that era, in that part of the USA (which is still pretty religious and conservative even now), someone who got pregnant would had have really no viable choice but to either get married or leave town. There definitely would have been people who would have vilified any girl who had sex outside of marriage, even if she got married later, and considered them "bad" or "damaged goods." Getting divorced in the early 60s was pretty scandalous too, even in major cities. Husband who keeps getting arrested? That would reflect back on the wife and kids, too. And of course in that era if there were any sort of domestic abuse or child abuse going on, it was totally ignored.

So there would have been a ton of judgment heaped on Axl's mom, which must have been absolutely horrible for her.

Going toward a super-religious community may have seemed like a refuge - there's the idea in many evangelical Christian communities that if you come to God, all your sins are forgiven. But meanwhile they will also be held over your head and you are shamed relentlessly for them, and it's supposed to be your duty to repent for them. Some of those communities openly believe that beating your kids is somehow "Biblical" and that the male head of the household has the right to run it however harshly he pleases.

It sounds like a horrible situation to grow up in.

 

I don`t say there is no bullying here (I was favorite target, too, even adult. I also had to defend myself, although not physically), but this is quiet extreme what you write about. 

Other is religion thing, here it`s more with strict Catholics who insist others to live by their rules without looking at particular human being. And love juicy gossip about who is having sex with who with child as a definitive proof. They will count months. Sometimes I ask myself if they know any other sin than adultery to gossip (god forgives, they don`t) or as if they somehow wanted you to be a sinner to feel better themselves. They glorify women who let themselves and children be abused and don`t get divorced. 

[killuridols]

45 minutes ago, Alja said:

You were born prodigy (at local terms, at least). You are extra in arts or science or whatever if you compare yourself with other kids, you pass with little or no effort. You are little gem wining prizes. 

At around 14-15 you are definitively out of childhood in two things: you have to proof your talent (arts, science, whatever) outside "little league", among adults, or leave it. You are not little gem wining prizes anymore.  Second thing is that when you are a kid, you know that adults know more than you. They have all the answers. Mostly it is given by their longer experience with things. But in like this age you find out that most of them have no clue and live in... autopilot? mode. They don`t think anymore, don`t question, and most of all they insist on "knowing things" and "doing the right things" even if you proof them wrong (just get irritated). They can`t say "I don`t know" and they don`t have answers. They just set rules or mostly follow existing rules without asking them. These smart kids often do have problem with authorities just because of that, that`s the driving power. They can proof you dumb in public with enjoyment as n extra. That`s provoking authorities more than anything.

Every teenage has problems with authority, they will proof you. Dumb kids provoke dumb way (they have no cause and don`t think further). Soon they become as same as adults they were rebelling against.

I'm very sorry but really.... what a bunch of crap!

Not every adult person is dumb, stupid, limited, uneducated, lacks common sense or critical views in life. "Prodigies" are like 1% of the world wide population and not every smart or above average intelligence person is a "prodigy" either.

Defying authority and disrespecting people in general is far from being "smart". I'm not saying you have to accept everything someone with power says because they can be wrong too, but in general, trying to play smartass with an authority is as dumb as it can get and it will lead you to trouble. Smart people do not ruin their lives with stupid mistakes.

Not every teenager have a problem with authority. I never did, nor my friends and a big extended list of people that I know did ever got involved with the police, delinquency, or disrespected teachers, etc.

[Andy14]

So...just to lighten up this conversation a little (and make you analyze our guys even more )...We all know that Axl loves cats while Slash's a snake guy which says something about them:

@killuridols, @Lumikki, @Frey, @BorderlineCrazy, @MillionsOfSpiders, @Blackstar and others, feel free to discuss 

[dgnr]

1 minute ago, Andy14 said:

So...just to lighten up this conversation a little (and make you analyze our guys even more )...We all know that Axl loves cats while Slash's a snake guy which says something about them:

The snake...WTF?  Yep, Slash, we saw that coming 

The cat is very accurate too, I must say