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GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2


alfierose

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@Frey I really can't remember very well, I  can't remember for sure who it was but I think it was probably the guy from LA Guns, because I remember GnR fans were hassling him over what he had said and he hit back at them. Either he posted here himself or the fans hassling him were getting his responses somewhere else and posting them here. 

I absolutely remember the exact words he used that were posted in that thread, he said "believe what you all want, the truth is Axl would open his asshole for anyone who would pay him." 

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34 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

I feel the same, it's like there's nothing to look forward to.

The Americans have the best times to look forward to with the Arena tour. I can't see us getting arenas, it's gonna have to be stadiums surely? Unless they do like 7 nights in England then 

a couple of nights for the Jocks n Paddies

I doubt we will get arenas too. The best I am hoping for is they come back and play the Etihad seeing as it is 20,000 less in capacity than Wembley or Olympic Stadium.. and if they can fit a gold circle in, it's really tiny. 

I would be shocked if they announced any arena shows. I can't believe how much money they made from those two London shows alone :shock: Most of the casuals I know who went said they'll go again, so yeah I think they can do the stadiums again :(  

What about Slash? Do you think he will leave at the end of this run? 

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1 minute ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

What about Slash? Do you think he will leave at the end of this run?

My honest thinking is when the USA tour finishes Axl will record AND tour with ACDC which leaves time for Slash to release SMKC 3 and tour.

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3 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I doubt we will get arenas too. The best I am hoping for is they come back and play the Etihad seeing as it is 20,000 less in capacity than Wembley or Olympic Stadium.. and if they can fit a gold circle in, it's really tiny. 

I would be shocked if they announced any arena shows. I can't believe how much money they made from those two London shows alone :shock: Most of the casuals I know who went said they'll go again, so yeah I think they can do the stadiums again :(  

What about Slash? Do you think he will leave at the end of this run? 

If I may ask why are you hoping for arenas, since every die-hard fan including you buys golden circle every time..

I personally prefer stadiums cause of a better atmosphere...:)

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8 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

What about Slash? Do you think he will leave at the end of this run? 

I think without Slash, GNR is dead...there is not doubt in my mind...the success of this tour is because Axl and Slash and in some extent Duff...if Slash is out...bye GNR

But I believe that Axl will do something with Angus, so that will give Slash the time to do something of his own

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What exactly is the difference between stadiums and arenas?

About the thing @Frey and @killuridols posted here and in the NY thread. I'm pretty sure we all discussed all of that in the WT. I never knew any of this until I registered for this forum so...

So I'm not really shocked by people prostituting (is that a word?) themselves. It's their choice. If all, especially if they're so young, being addicted or desperate for other reasons, it makes me feel sorry for them.

I'm only really shocked / concerned about "selling women", selling hard drugs, them having rape charges. sex with minors and beating women.

--

Whatever happens after the US tour... If Slash and Duff are out, GnR will be dead. Deader than dead because now fans will know what to miss even more. I can't see Izzy and Steven coming along and I don't see the Big Three in a studio together writing new music. Don't know why, maybe due to their age?

 

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4 minutes ago, scooby845 said:

If I may ask why are you hoping for arenas, since every die-hard fan including you buys golden circle every time..

I personally prefer stadiums cause of a better atmosphere...:)

The main thing is the sound quality in arenas is much better, so they would sound a lot better/louder. 

I hate the majority of the show being in sunlight, the whole thing is just much better when you can see the stage fully lit up and the band members in the spotlights.

The weather in England is shit. Either you are drenched in the pissing down rain or you will be burnt to hell by the sun at outdoor shows. 

I love the atmosphere in arena shows and the stage would be smaller so it might force the guys to interact more :P

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1 hour ago, Frey said:

I'm unclear about the dates here anyway (I'm not good with dates to begin with and not as knowledgable about early GNR history as I probably should be considering how much time I waste on this forum lol) - when were these 6 months Axl supposedly lived with Michael Jagosz' parents and took heroin? I'm assuming the "two weeks" Axl sang for L.A. Guns must have been around the same time as he was living with Jagosz' parents. Or maybe shortly after or before.

I'm a little fuzzy on the details as well. From what I recall of reading Slash's autobiography and other miscellaneous biographies I've read, Axl might have been a part of L.A. Guns twice. Once apparently when L.A. Guns first formed in 1983, perhaps before or after Rapifire which was also active in 1983 (the details on this are really unclear as the timelines are subtly different depending on the source). He was also their vocalist for a few shows in October 1984 (this is a little better documented as there are recordings and pictures from this show). Now, considering the fact that Jagosz is on the Collector's Edition No. 1 EP which was apparently recorded in 1984, I would guess that the "two weeks" he's talking about is in reference to the shows in October 1984.

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13 hours ago, marlingrl03 said:

Nice shots of Axl from the latest European tour. Can't believe it is over....but now on to the US baby! :headbang:

Image may contain: 1 person, standing and hat

Image may contain: one or more people and hat

Image may contain: one or more people and people standing

Image may contain: 1 person

I took those pics:wub: At least the two first. I've been taking between 50-150 at each of the 6 shows I've attended, so it's hard to recognice them all. To many to put watermarks on them all :P

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46 minutes ago, marlingrl03 said:

The Alamodome is a covered stadium so that will be interesting. They should be able to make it dark for the whole show which will be awesome. I definitely like the shows more in the dark!

The Dome in St. Louis is also covered.  I'll be there, pit, Duff's side.  :D

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36 minutes ago, Hejanne said:

I took those pics:wub: At least the two first. I've been taking between 50-150 at each of the 6 shows I've attended, so it's hard to recognice them all. To many to put watermarks on them all :P

Oh....I almost put down your real name for a credit but not sure if you wanted that. Some people don't. But yeah I saw them on fb. You take excellent photos!!!!! Major props. Sorry for not crediting you. 

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3 minutes ago, triad said:

Yes, very lucky.  Thank you for your service, @Rocketqueen76.  It's appreciated beyond words, and I'm really sorry it's keeping you from STL that weekend.  It would have been fun to meet!

@triad it would have been an absolute blast to meet and rock out!  And thank you very much for your support. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Hershey show

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4 hours ago, Frey said:

Usually, I wouldn't take anyone who talks like that seriously anyway, but I just can't figure out why he hates Axl so much. It's not like Axl stole his place in L.A. Guns and then went on to become super successfull with them.

Is he just jealous because Axl made it big and he didn't? Or still mad about the time Axl lived with his family? It's strange to me that the guy could still be so bitter about Axl "sponging off of his family for six months" about three decades later (and why didn't they just kick him out if they didn't like having him around?).

Is he actually telling the truth or did he just try to come up with the most damaging thing he could say about another man in his mind (i.e. letting yourself get fucked by other guys for money)?

For what it's worth, @killuridols says she knows of another guy who knew Axl back then who apparently made the same claims about him. I don't know the details about that one though, maybe she can tell us if they match up with what Mr. Jagosz was claiming here.

Ok. I'm here to respond what I can respond without having to expose myself too much....

First of all, even though I do think the words of Jagosz are pretty harsh and gross, I have no reason to believe he's a douchebag/asshole/piece of shit and all the others name he's been called here JUST BECAUSE he dared to talk shit about almighty Axl. Come on.... aren't we all adults here? Reacting like fangirls will not lead us to the truth. But I understand how people get nervous about this topic and some reactions look to me like what happens when you don't want to accept something about your heroes or idols that is really ugly and there's no room in your head for them to be less than perfect.

Tough news, guys... Axl was an asshole (and probably still is to some extent) when he was young and he's mistreated A LOT of people.

You ask why people still hold grudges, 30 years after?

Well, because some of those people he's damaged to hell or treated them like a piece of shit. Some cannot get over it that easily and if the media asks them about him, they're gonna say the first impression they had of him. Many of these guys did not follow Axl like fangirls and got to analyze or cared to understand why he was such a looney. People who knew Axl in real life just knew him and moved on. He doesn't represent to them the things he represents to his fans and younger people like us.

That being said, I'd like to point out that this Jagosz quote is taken out of context. It is taken from an interview that I cannot find anywhere on the net because yes, it also rings a bell to me that he is so enraged and talks so harshly about Axl but I think that's coming from somewhere else.

So to respond to your question about dates, Frey, I don't have exact dates with this thing but I can try to put some ideas together:

- Axl moved to L.A. in early 1982. I have no idea how or where he lived during that whole year but..... living with Jagosz parents might have occured sometime between late 1982 and early 1983.

- Axl replaced Jagoz in L.A. Guns during two weeks... the same two weeks Jagosz went to jail. But previous to him going to jail, Jagosz had recorded an EP with this band.

- I estimate this jail event might have happened sometime between January and March 1983.

What did my dead guy #2 say about this?

Something similar to what Jagosz said (maybe more concrete and specific) but in a pretty careful way with words like "i think he mentioned"... "I'm not 100% sure"..."I don't want to speculate or start a rumour".... because I'm sure my dead guy #2 didn't want to get in more trouble with Axl's lawyers or get sued by bullshit like this. They appear to be mainly gossips and no one really knows about it OR people were just scared to say stuff like that and get sued.

What is my opinion?

My opinion is that there are high chances that he did it. I can't tell if this happened all the time, if he made a living off it or it was more ocassional. Also, it looks to me that these events may have taken place during the first couple years after he arrived to L.A. and they did not extend longer than that.

 

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3 hours ago, Natty said:

(if I forgot somebody, please kick me with Axl's boot :nervous:)

Not sure it was a great review but I shared one. However, I don't feel like hitting you with Axl's boot at all :lol:

As for the Jagosz guy... well, sorry but it's such an outburst of hate that it doesn't make one word he says sound in any way credible. I'm not saying it's impossible he's right but this kind of statement doesn't add anything to the discussion, because it's more like a lithany of swear words than anything else. He could as well say Axl killed virgins and drank their blood.

What the truth is nobody knows. I said I don't think Axl would but I don't know. If you rememeber there's still this very weird interview with Alan Niven, where he questioned Axl's heterosexuality. Also the famous Axl-Slash relationship was without a doubt a very affectionate one at some point of their lives. I never thought of it and still don't as being sexual in the full sense of this word but certainly very emotional and affectionate also in the physical aspect (there were shows when these guys just couldn't keep their hands off the other). But as far as I'm concerned this affection or love could as well have nothing to do with sex and be totally innocent, which I find quite likely.

Another thing is the general way of conduct of rock musicians. Years after we usually learn that many musicians considered hetersexual and actually being heterosexual experimented with men, cause the times were as they were - the best example here would be Mick Jagger - all the gossips about his romantic affairs with men.

In the context of all the above, it already seems less shocking to think it would concern these guys as well but who knows? That for certain is something they will never openly admit to, so we are doomed to be lost in doubt forever ;)

 

 

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This Jagosz says "come to found out, he was a male prostitute at the time"

So, he found this out later from some else? 

He didn't notice at the very time he lived with in his house for six months? 

Just asking, not saying Axl wasn't/isn't an asshole or that he definitely didn't do it. 

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I just realised that I didn't really respond to your other points so here it is...

3 hours ago, Frey said:

The dates question is also relevant to this part of your comment - "And considering the company they kept (stripper and dealers) and living hand to mouth with little to no privacy, I am mildly perplexed that more accounts such as these haven't come forward since they became famous." - I think in Axl's early days in L.A. he wasn't really living with strippers and the other guys with no privacy, he was living with Izzy and Gina at times, and various people who would let him sleep on their couch/at their house, such as Slash's family, Chris Weber and Michael Jagosz' family apparently. It would have been much easier like that to engage in this kind of thing then later on when they were living cramped inside that garage/storage space for example.

Hmm... it kinda seems like Axl lived like a nomad at times (or perhaps a cat :lol:). Now that you've mentioned that, I recall accounts from others that stated that Axl would randomly disappear, sometimes for weeks, and people would assume that he'd found another place to crash at. This behaviour even continued when they were living at the "hell house". What did he do / where did he go during this time?

Another thing that comes to mind when thinking about this subject is the story Slash tells in his book about the time he was sent to county jail for an old jaywalking charge and he later found out that Axl came up with the money for his bail while the other guys apparently had no idea that Slash was even missing (I might be remembering this wrong so please feel free to correct me). How did Axl come up with the money? (not saying that he got it via prostitution but something about that story just doesn't add up to me...)

3 hours ago, Frey said:

About Alan Niven... are you suggesting Alan Niven might know about Axl selling himself to other dudes too? I always interpreted his comments as just him being a douchebag and trying to get some (rather dumb and ignorant) digs in at Axl based on his clothing choices. But now that you put it that way, it actually makes sense on whole different level, especially the "Who is the Rocket Queen really?" part :confused:

Here is my interpretation of that part of the interview:-

When Niven said that it was originally as a response to whether misogynistic lyrics (and general shock factor) was the secret ingredient that made Gn'R more successful than other bands at the time. Niven starts of the answer by focusing on Axl alone, saying that Axl is driven on conflict and hate but "genderwise he is an equal opportunity junkyard dog". This might imply that Niven is defending Axl against accusations of misogyny and he further backs this by bringing up Sweet Child and Rocket Queen as lyrical moments showing "Axl as an angel". Then he takes a bit of a left turn and starts contemplating Axl's bisexuality, using his onstage costume and performance as supposed evidence. As you said, this could be (and probably is) Niven just being a dick but considering the fact that he also seems to be defending the sincerity of Axl's lyrics at the same time kinda leaves things up for interpretation imo.

Honestly, I only brought it up as it is one of the few instances I can recall off the top of my head where someone has outright called Axl's sexuality into question and was also closely associated with the band. For argument's sake, lets assume that this means that Niven did know about alleged prostitution, also assuming that it stopped well before Gn'R got signed, how would he have found out? Was it common knowledge around the strip? Perhaps, but like I said before common knowledge like that doesn't stay hidden for so long. So... did someone tell him? Did others in the band know?

 

W.r.t to the timeline @killuridols has proposed, perhaps the living situation with Jagosz and replacing him in the band happened at two different times. I'm pretty sure that Collector's Edition No. 1 was recorded in 1984 and that Axl did front the band briefly during October of the same year. The living situation might have happened in 1982/83. :shrugs:

 

Edited by KiraMPD
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4 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

This Jagosz says "come to found out, he was a male prostitute at the time"

So, he found this out later from some else? 

He didn't notice at the very time he lived with in his house for six months? 

Just asking, not saying Axl wasn't/isn't an asshole or that he definitely didn't do it. 

Why would he notice?

If Axl did those things I don't think he would take the "men" to Jagosz house :suspicious:

Besides, Jagosz a bit younger than Axl, I think..... He could have been pretty naive to those things happening.

Remember we are talking about people barely in their twenties, not adults that would pay attention to lots of things and "warnings" and "alerts".

Also, people like Axl, Jagosz and the rest did not care a lot about the others, what they did, where they stayed, etc... It is assumed that everybody's ok, doing their thing, being free.... Also, it was a time of no cellphones, whatsapp and shit like that. People would be way more free to do whatever they wanted without having others constantly checking on them.

:shrugs:

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54 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Ok. I'm here to respond what I can respond without having to expose myself too much....

First of all, even though I do think the words of Jagosz are pretty harsh and gross, I have no reason to believe he's a douchebag/asshole/piece of shit and all the others name he's been called here JUST BECAUSE he dared to talk shit about almighty Axl. Come on.... aren't we all adults here? Reacting like fangirls will not lead us to the truth. But I understand how people get nervous about this topic and some reactions look to me like what happens when you don't want to accept something about your heroes or idols that is really ugly and there's no room in your head for them to be less than perfect.

Tough news, guys... Axl was an asshole (and probably still is to some extent) when he was young and he's mistreated A LOT of people.

You ask why people still hold grudges, 30 years after?

Well, because some of those people he's damaged to hell or treated them like a piece of shit. Some cannot get over it that easily and if the media asks them about him, they're gonna say the first impression they had of him. Many of these guys did not follow Axl like fangirls and got to analyze or cared to understand why he was such a looney. People who knew Axl in real life just knew him and moved on. He doesn't represent to them the things he represents to his fans and younger people like us.

That being said, I'd like to point out that this Jagosz quote is taken out of context. It is taken from an interview that I cannot find anywhere on the net because yes, it also rings a bell to me that he is so enraged and talks so harshly about Axl but I think that's coming from somewhere else.

So to respond to your question about dates, Frey, I don't have exact dates with this thing but I can try to put some ideas together:

- Axl moved to L.A. in early 1982. I have no idea how or where he lived during that whole year but..... living with Jagosz parents might have occured sometime between late 1982 and early 1983.

- Axl replaced Jagoz in L.A. Guns during two weeks... the same two weeks Jagosz went to jail. But previous to him going to jail, Jagosz had recorded an EP with this band.

- I estimate this jail event might have happened sometime between January and March 1983.

What did my dead guy #2 say about this?

Something similar to what Jagosz said (maybe more concrete and specific) but in a pretty careful way with words like "i think he mentioned"... "I'm not 100% sure"..."I don't want to speculate or start a rumour".... because I'm sure my dead guy #2 didn't want to get in more trouble with Axl's lawyers or get sued by bullshit like this. They appear to be mainly gossips and no one really knows about it OR people were just scared to say stuff like that and get sued.

What is my opinion?

My opinion is that there are high chances that he did it. I can't tell if this happened all the time, if he made a living off it or it was more ocassional. Also, it looks to me that these events may have taken place during the first couple years after he arrived to L.A. and they did not extend longer than that.

 

Hi I dont know anything at all and you seem to have some inside knowledge..however I personally dont steem Axl less if he did that. It has nothing to do with what we love, his voice his songwriting his stage presence , and so on.. this cannot be damaged in my opinion. 

I am sure he had his reasons if he did it. Not our business. 

I can think of worse than that to survive. 

If Axl was an asshole when he was younger..possible..but still I love him. 

He is such a unique person even if I dont know him personally..

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2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Why would he notice?

If Axl did those things I don't think he would take the "men" to Jagosz house :suspicious:

Besides, Jagosz a bit younger than Axl, I think..... He could have been pretty naive to those things happening.

Remember we are talking about people barely in their twenties, not adults that would pay attention to lots of things and "warnings" and "alerts".

Also, people like Axl, Jagosz and the rest did not care a lot about the others, what they did, where they stayed, etc... It is assumed that everybody's ok, doing their thing, being free.... Also, it was a time of no cellphones, whatsapp and shit like that. People would be way more free to do whatever they wanted without having others constantly checking on them.

:shrugs:

Well he seemed to notice what a subhuman piece of shit heroin user he was :shrugs:

I wonder where he got his information from then. 

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3 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

@Frey I really can't remember very well, I  can't remember for sure who it was but I think it was probably the guy from LA Guns, because I remember GnR fans were hassling him over what he had said and he hit back at them. Either he posted here himself or the fans hassling him were getting his responses somewhere else and posting them here. 

I absolutely remember the exact words he used that were posted in that thread, he said "believe what you all want, the truth is Axl would open his asshole for anyone who would pay him.

Pretty harsh.

Which makes it sound like Mr. Jagosz then :tongue2:  I get the impression this forum was a wild place in the past. I mean I lurked around sometimes, but I completely missed most dramatic shit like this.

3 hours ago, Tori72 said:

About the thing @Frey and @killuridols posted here and in the NY thread. I'm pretty sure we all discussed all of that in the WT. I never knew any of this until I registered for this forum so...

So I'm not really shocked by people prostituting (is that a word?) themselves. It's their choice. If all, especially if they're so young, being addicted or desperate for other reasons, it makes me feel sorry for them.

I'm only really shocked / concerned about "selling women", selling hard drugs, them having rape charges. sex with minors and beating women.

We might have touched on this during the course of other topics, but I don't think we've ever seriously talked about Axl doing this...

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Ok. I'm here to respond what I can respond without having to expose myself too much....

First of all, even though I do think the words of Jagosz are pretty harsh and gross, I have no reason to believe he's a douchebag/asshole/piece of shit and all the others name he's been called here JUST BECAUSE he dared to talk shit about almighty Axl. Come on.... aren't we all adults here? Reacting like fangirls will not lead us to the truth. But I understand how people get nervous about this topic and some reactions look to me like what happens when you don't want to accept something about your heroes or idols that is really ugly and there's no room in your head for them to be less than perfect.

Tough news, guys... Axl was an asshole (and probably still is to some extent) when he was young and he's mistreated A LOT of people.

You ask why people still hold grudges, 30 years after?

Well, because some of those people he's damaged to hell or treated them like a piece of shit. Some cannot get over it that easily and if the media asks them about him, they're gonna say the first impression they had of him. Many of these guys did not follow Axl like fangirls and got to analyze or cared to understand why he was such a looney. People who knew Axl in real life just knew him and moved on. He doesn't represent to them the things he represents to his fans and younger people like us.

You misunderstand. I did not call the guy an asshole or a douchebag or whatever because he was saying mean things about Axl, I was referring to the kind of rhetoric he used. Sub-human for example? That's Nazi rhetoric. You don't go around calling other people sub-human. "Male-fa**ot prostitute" is pretty distasteful as well. I don't like people who talk like that because only assholes talk like that. I assume most people here feel the same way and I saw no one get offended just because he said nasty things about Axl.

But anyway, the guy mentions nothing concrete that would explain his over-the-top anger at Axl. As it is, he comes across as rather pity over comparatively harmless stuff that happened decades ago. I'm the last person to shy away from wanting to hear all the awful shit Axl has done. Call it scientific curiosity or whatever you want, but I'd actually be very interested in hearing all the 'damaging' shit you think Axl might have done to him. Sadly, he's not there anymore to rant some more about it and shed some light on Axl's early years in L.A.

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

That being said, I'd like to point out that this Jagosz quote is taken out of context. It is taken from an interview that I cannot find anywhere on the net because yes, it also rings a bell to me that he is so enraged and talks so harshly about Axl but I think that's coming from somewhere else.

The only thing I could find while googling was the quote used in the article I posted, so yes, I assume the whole interview is gone. Do you still have the original interview somewhere?

It would be interesting to see the context of that quote and what else he had to say about Axl.

3 hours ago, KiraMPD said:

I'm a little fuzzy on the details as well. From what I recall of reading Slash's autobiography and other miscellaneous biographies I've read, Axl might have been a part of L.A. Guns twice. Once apparently when L.A. Guns first formed in 1983, perhaps before or after Rapifire which was also active in 1983 (the details on this are really unclear as the timelines are subtly different depending on the source). He was also their vocalist for a few shows in October 1984 (this is a little better documented as there are recordings and pictures from this show). Now, considering the fact that Jagosz is on the Collector's Edition No. 1 EP which was apparently recorded in 1984, I would guess that the "two weeks" he's talking about is in reference to the shows in October 1984.

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

So to respond to your question about dates, Frey, I don't have exact dates with this thing but I can try to put some ideas together:

- Axl moved to L.A. in early 1982. I have no idea how or where he lived during that whole year but..... living with Jagosz parents might have occured sometime between late 1982 and early 1983.

- Axl replaced Jagoz in L.A. Guns during two weeks... the same two weeks Jagosz went to jail. But previous to him going to jail, Jagosz had recorded an EP with this band.

- I estimate this jail event might have happened sometime between January and March 1983.

Okay, thank you both for your input.

So I guess it's safe to say if any of this is true, it was happening between 1982 and 1984.

Meaning Axl was 20-22 years at the time.

:wacko:

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

What did my dead guy #2 say about this?

 

Something similar to what Jagosz said (maybe more concrete and specific) but in a pretty careful way with words like "i think he mentioned"... "I'm not 100% sure"..."I don't want to speculate or start a rumour".... because I'm sure my dead guy #2 didn't want to get in more trouble with Axl's lawyers or get sued by bullshit like this. They appear to be mainly gossips and no one really knows about it OR people were just scared to say stuff like that and get sued.

What is my opinion?

My opinion is that there are high chances that he did it. I can't tell if this happened all the time, if he made a living off it or it was more ocassional. Also, it looks to me that these events may have taken place during the first couple years after he arrived to L.A. and they did not extend longer than that.

Dead Guy #2 sounds a bit friendlier towards Axl from the way you make it sound.

Did he have an axe to grind with Axl too or was he just talking about that in more neutral sort of way? Also, "I think he mentioned..."? "He" being Axl? Or someone else? Because it would surprise me if Axl had actually told someone about doing this (except someone he was really close to, like Izzy, Duff or Slash maybe).

 

@MillionsOfSpiders and @KiraMPD I'll reply to your posts too after I actually get around to reading them. You guys post too fast :tongue2:

 

 

 

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