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GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2


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On 24.3.2017 at 2:58 PM, killuridols said:

...

I agree with your rather cynical view of academia and there being a lot of ego and drama involved, but a lot of the criticism against Myers-Briggs (and other tests along these lines) is perfectly justified as far as I'm concerned.

And the link I provided was intended as something more light-hearted, like I said, but some of the basic points the article makes are valid. But we're not going to agree on this, so let's agree to disagree.

 

On 24.3.2017 at 3:39 PM, killuridols said:

As for Axl case, IMO, he's not the best example we could use to describe the introvert type, if it really was the case that he is one. I believe that all these things that are said about him like being a recluse or private person are not related to introversion per se but to his status as a celebrity first and as someone who is dealing with a mental disease or disorder of some degree.

 

But he said he was already an introverted child iirc, so I don't think it just comes down to him being famous and so on.

 

On 23.3.2017 at 10:48 PM, stella said:

Yes - and to add to what @Blackstar said, from what Axl mentioned in that big Rolling Stone interview, he found out about his sister's abuse in 1990 or so, and it's pretty reasonable to think it may have contributed to the break. In the RS interview he mentions something about how it's important that his stepfather isn't around him or his sister anymore because he's dangerous.

You weren't here for that, but towards the end of the old thread we had some pretty heavy discussion about the stuff Tom Zutaut said in the BBC documentary (about Axl's stepfather sexually abusing Axl too), and some people came down on the side of believing that Zutaut was telling the truth. So assuming that what Zutaut said is indeed true, I can totally see why he'd say his stepfather is dangerous (if I remember correctly Axl actually called his step father "the most dangerous man I've ever met") and why he would do everything to keep him away from his sister and himself.

Here's some links to the discussion from the thread index (links to individual posts because the discussion is spread out over many pages) because I just indexed that part of the thread.

Spoiler

Tom Zutauts claims in the BBC documentary  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Frey said:

I agree with your rather cynical view of academia and there being a lot of ego and drama involved, but a lot of the criticism against Myers-Briggs (and other tests along these lines) is perfectly justified as far as I'm concerned.

And the link I provided was intended as something more light-hearted, like I said, but some of the basic points the article makes are valid. But we're not going to agree on this, so let's agree to disagree.

That's fine :thumbsup:

(train about this topic is long gone :ph34r:)

23 minutes ago, Frey said:

But he said he was already an introverted child iirc, so I don't think it just comes down to him being famous and so on.

He can say whatever he wants.... It doesn't make it necessarily true and remember, most people don't know themselves or don't analyze themselves for most part of their life, especially when they are young. By those years, he was looking for answers, always in the wrong places... He dismissed traditional medicine and went by charlatans like Yoda who would tell him who was right or wrong for him :facepalm:.

He believes in past lives and soul transferring. He paid thousands of bucks for exorcisms and told Erin that he was mean to her because she had killed their children in a past life :laugh:

Axl is unreliable, he lives in another dimension... He could believe he's an introverted alien from an undiscovered planet! 

Also, the alleged rape is not something we can confirm it is true either. He supposedly found out about this in regression therapy where he supposedly went back to his days in the womb :confused: and saw how unwanted he was and as a 2 years old child he could remember "the rape".

Then we have Tom Zutaut crazy stories about another rape scenario but we can't be sure about this either because Axl never told this story and Zutaut's reputation is as pure-white as for you it is Steven's mom :lol:

To make the story short, his so-called introversion derived from the inferences of him not being seen out and about or not leaving hotels in days, in my opinion, it is incorrect because like I said many times before, introversion is not a disease and what he does looks more like depression or social phobia or anxiety.

42 minutes ago, Frey said:

So assuming that what Zutaut said is indeed true, I can totally see why he'd say his stepfather is dangerous (if I remember correctly Axl actually called his step father "the most dangerous man I've ever met") and why he would do everything to keep him away from his sister and himself.

I'm sorry to butt in but I feel like :lol: at that Axl's statement...

His step-dad the most dangerous man he ever met? Yeah, that one is a whack job but what about himself? He's a wife beater and allegedly raped some girls (you said he raped the Sheila girl and for a while he was chased by the police for same allegations).

So wtf is he talking about? He's never guilty of anything and everybody else is a bigger asshole than him.

Ok, Axl, whatever...

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1 hour ago, killuridols said:

He can say whatever he wants.... It doesn't make it necessarily true and remember, most people don't know themselves or don't analyze themselves for most part of their life, especially when they are young. By those years, he was looking for answers, always in the wrong places... He dismissed traditional medicine and went by charlatans like Yoda who would tell him who was right or wrong for him :facepalm:.

 

He believes in past lives and soul transferring. He paid thousands of bucks for exorcisms and told Erin that he was mean to her because she had killed their children in a past life :laugh:

Axl is unreliable, he lives in another dimension... He could believe he's an introverted alien from an undiscovered planet! 

Also, the alleged rape is not something we can confirm it is true either. He supposedly found out about this in regression therapy where he supposedly went back to his days in the womb :confused: and saw how unwanted he was and as a 2 years old child he could remember "the rape".

Then we have Tom Zutaut crazy stories about another rape scenario but we can't be sure about this either because Axl never told this story and Zutaut's reputation is as pure-white as for you it is Steven's mom :lol:

To make the story short, his so-called introversion derived from the inferences of him not being seen out and about or not leaving hotels in days, in my opinion, it is incorrect because like I said many times before, introversion is not a disease and what he does looks more like depression or social phobia or anxiety.

Yeah, Axl is a bit of an unreliable source if you want sane and reasonable beliefs and decisions and he has/had some very whacky ideas, but I disagree that most people don't know themselves to the extent you're implying here. Most people do know themselves well enough to tell you about their basic character traits and if Axl thinks he's introverted then I see no reason to immediately doubt him. And I don't see how Axl having crazy ideas about certain areas in life would necessarily mean he doesn't know himself.

I never said anything about any of the alleged rapes being confirmed, but those are at least possible, so I'm not going to count them in among the crazy shit Axl believes category. I also never called introversion a disease (I'm an introvert myself and certainly don't feel like I have a disease). Also how, does him having depression/social phobia/anxiety/or something else along these lines (which I think is probably true) exclude the possibility of him being an introvert? It's perfectly possible he's both an introvert and also suffers from depression for example.

I don't necessarily base my opinion about him being an introvert on the fact that he likes to lock himself away in hotel rooms (which I agree sounds more like depression or anxiety), but about things Axl has said about himself and other people have said about him and by the way he acts. He's referred to himself as introverted and other people have done the same about him and like I said, I don't immediately disregard that because I disagree with you in that I don't think that other people don't know themselves or don't know what they're talking about. Axl has also done and said a lot of things that appear to be introvert behavior- for example his quote about "needing his space" when someone asked him about being bipolar in the forum chats. That's what I often say as well and what I mean by that is "I need to get away from people/be on my own to re-charge my batteries" and so on. Axl probably meant it the same way.

 

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

I'm sorry to butt in but I feel like :lol: at that Axl's statement...

His step-dad the most dangerous man he ever met? Yeah, that one is a whack job but what about himself? He's a wife beater and allegedly raped some girls (you said he raped the Sheila girl and for a while he was chased by the police for same allegations).

So wtf is he talking about? He's never guilty of anything and everybody else is a bigger asshole than him.

Ok, Axl, whatever...

Why are you trying to make this into an "Axl is never to blame for anything" issue? While taking blame is certainly something he seems to struggle with at times, this has nothing to do with his quote. Axl said "My step father is the most dangerous man I've ever met." That's literally just him saying he's never met anyone that seemed more dangerous and terrifying to him than his stepfather. Which is a perfectly understandable thing to feel and say in his position. How fucked up or dangerous he himself is (or was) to other people doesn't matter in this context (he can hardly meet himself now, can he?). 

And apart from that I'd argue that yes, the step father appears to be a much worse person than Axl ever was. You can't sink much lower than child abuse and as far as we know, Axl's step father has never made any attempts to change or repent either (if such a thing is even possible), going by how agitated/upset Amy recently was again because of him.

 

 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Frey said:

Most people do know themselves well enough to tell you about their basic character traits and if Axl thinks he's introverted then I see no reason to immediately doubt him. And I don't see how Axl having crazy ideas about certain areas in life would necessarily mean he doesn't know himself.

Regardless of his crazy beliefs, he's always come across to me as a delusional person when he's given certain answers to certain hot controversial topics of his career or his life. So I don't know if I can trust him with some things he says about himself or the perception he has of himself.... But, of course, that's just my stupid opinion :shrugs:

Btw, I don't remember him talking about being introverted. Can you point out where or when he said this?

1 hour ago, Frey said:

I never said anything about any of the alleged rapes being confirmed, but those are at least possible, so I'm not going to count them in among the crazy shit Axl believes category. I also never called introversion a disease (I'm an introvert myself and certainly don't feel like I have a disease). Also how, does him having depression/social phobia/anxiety/or something else along these lines (which I think is probably true) exclude the possibility of him being an introvert? It's perfectly

I know you didn't say anything about that. I brought it up myself and I probably made a mess in how I expressed myself. What I meant is that this subject is also something that raises a bit of doubt in me when it comes to evaluate his sense of reality and perception because the case is presented under proof that is questionable (the regression therapy revealing a memory buried deep in the mind of a 2 years old child).

Also, I never said that he can't be an introvert and have (or not have) depression or some other thing. I said some people infer that he is an introvert because he is called reclusive or doesn't seem to socialize much. Not saying that you, particularly, think or believe this.

Needing space is not something exclusive of introverts, though. That's why I think there's a general misunderstanding of the concept.

1 hour ago, Frey said:

Why are you trying to make this into an "Axl is never to blame for anything" issue? While taking blame is certainly something he seems to struggle with at times, this has nothing to do with his quote. Axl said "My step father is the most dangerous man I've ever met." That's literally just him saying he's never met anyone that seemed more dangerous and terrifying to him than his stepfather. Which is a perfectly understandable thing to feel and say in his position. How fucked up or dangerous he himself is (or was) to other people doesn't matter in this context (he can hardly meet himself now, can he?). 

That's not what I was trying to say... Basically, I think he's a hypocrite when he points the finger at other people. He's doing that with Trump lately...

I know that nothing Axl does or did invalidates the wrong and bad his step-father or Trump could have done (or do) but that's another thing I perceive from him that, in my eyes, makes his judgement about himself or others unreliable.

Lol, he can't meet himself but he can know himself, right? You said so before, so he can compare himself to his step-father and see that he's not (or was not) that far from being a dangerous man himself, with the things he's done. I also know that people around him were terrified of him as well... That's the irony I wanted to remark from his statement, not analyzing the literal aspect of his words.

1 hour ago, Frey said:

And apart from that I'd argue that yes, the step father appears to be a much worse person than Axl ever was. You can't sink much lower than child abuse and as far as we know, Axl's step father has never made any attempts to change or repent either (if such a thing is even possible), going by how agitated/upset Amy recently was again because of him.

The child abuse allegations against his step-father are on the same boat as Axl's rape allegations, don't you think? So far we have no info on any of them.

I couldn't say if child abuse sinks lower than domestic violence. I tend to avoid putting that kind of suffering in a hierarchy, even though I think rape must be the worst to happen to anyone, being beat up (to death sometimes) just for being a woman seems pretty fucked up to me too.

I don't know if Axl's step father has made any attempt to change or repent... How would we know? 

Have we ever heard of Axl apologizing to Erin, Stephanie, Sheila, etc.? Did he ever show any repentance for singing inmigrants and fa****? Calling others the N word? Never heard either....so who knows...

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2 hours ago, Axl`s BFF said:

he can`t be that boring  if you follow him so closely he`s allowed an opinion just like you or me  

Who said he can't have an opinion? :shrugs:

I say he's a bore because he's monothematic and this is just my opinion so I suppose I'm allowed to have it, according to you.

I follow him for the same reasons I follow Duff, Slash and a lot of other people related to GNR in some shape or form. What's your point?

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On 23/03/2017 at 6:14 PM, Andy14 said:

Sorry to interrupt your conversation, just ignore me :ph34r:. But I have something for @Lumikki

HknL93.jpg

Great job, but the name is wrong, she isn't only @Lumikki, she is Princess Lumikki :P
 

On 23/03/2017 at 6:19 PM, killuridols said:

loooooooool.... omg and I still owe you the portrait of @dgnr so you can make her a card too :smiley-confused2:

Oh am I really getting a card and a portrait? This is too good :wub:
 

1 hour ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

I can tell you, that the worst thing my family/friends could have told me in that situation was that they didn't believe me.

Really sorry to hear about that :cry::hug:

-------
And OMG what did she do??? :thumbsdown: I'm not ready to say goodbye to our favorite smurfette, I just can't! Go back to the blue :max:
 

 

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6 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

 

Anyone else read it like franks left GnR? 

Didn't even think about that until you said something. I failed to read the hashtags but the "I wish you nothing but the best" made me think.

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8 hours ago, stella said:

But that's still inferring things without any backup. Here's what we know about what Axl does offstage: that Beta, Sasha, Andrei, etc. are among the people he hangs out with. We don't know antything more than that. We don't know if that's the only group he hangs with. We don't know about his personal life when he's not on tour. And we can't infer that from information that *isn't* there. I've never seen a photo of Axl brushing his teeth, either. Does that mean he doesn't do it, because we don't see it?
 

I don't think I can follow your point here, I'm afraid. What things from my previous posts do you think I'm inferring without any backup? You are actually inferring many of the same things I did.  :shrugs:

Also, my inferrences were about Axl's social life. Axl's personal life or his teeth brushing habits were not part of the discussion, so I don't see how that is relevant. :shrugs:

8 hours ago, stella said:

A photo or story of him and random people means he was hanging out with them or encountered then on that particular night. It doesn't mean anything more than that and it doesn't say anything about who else he is or isn't associating with offstage. As far as Duff and Slash are concerned...he has known Slash and Duff for 30+ years. Do you really think they need to document it for posterity every time they get together for lunch or whatever?

The Dubai thing, as well as the photo posted earlier, are both from tours - that is a bit different than when he's off-tour.
 

Right. That's my point (the bolded). I never said it meant anything more, so I guess we agree there. I also said earlier that I think he probably hangs with Sluff and they don't post pictures of those encounters, but you see, unless you or someone you know have witnessed those, here both you and I are inferring this without any real backup.

8 hours ago, stella said:


The point I'm making about the celebs that take the subway, NAMM etc. is that we can't assume anyone would say anything at all if they saw him out and about. Because that's not what happens in LA and NYC. He's not the biggest star in the world. If people like Johnny Depp and Leonardo DiCaprio and plenty of other "big" rockstars, like Steven Tyler, etc. can go about their business without constantly being photographed, so can Axl, and he does.
 

Well, I never said that Axl is the biggest star in the world or that he gets constantly photographed, but he is famous and people upload pictures of him from time to time, and that's a fact.

Again, I don't think we can compare Axl to the other people you mention. Granted, I don't really know much about their social lives, but what I do know is that when Steven Tyler was in BA last year for example, he was out and about, whereas Axl stayed in his hotel room most of the time, so that would show from starters a different behavoural pattern.

8 hours ago, stella said:


I don't think I am going to convince anyone who hasn't already made up their mind, but I do have to say that it is frustrating to see completely unfounded assumptions like this being made.

I'm sorry you get frustrated. I see that unfortunately it is a common thing in this forum. -_-

 

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6 hours ago, killuridols said:

I go by number 1 all the way but I can attempt to answer...

2) He controls when a picture of him with the original GNR members can be publicly seen. For example, the only picture of him, Duff and Slash from their visit to London with AC/DC is an official one taken "professionally" by Kat. All the other times they need approval and this would be very tiring for all of them, so no pics please.

I have two theories about this: a) he doesn't want to have his pic taken by a person who's not from his trust circle, for fear of looking like shit (the pics with fans are always taken by either Fernando or Vanessa) or b) he doesn't want people and press to read too much into these hang-outs and assume that he's back full time with the old gunners, hence he's gonna make an album with them and continue GNR were they left in 1996. Maybe, deep inside, he knows this won't happen... :unsure:

3) This doesn't need much explanation... Again related to control of some type, either because he wants to decide for how long and in what moment his photos go online or because he's terrified of having a bad picture taken so that it becomes an Internet meme. Probably feels he doesn't have much trust to ask either Susan or Meegan to photoshop his pics or "fix" them before they go live. We know Kat photoshops ALL the photos that are sent to the media or uploaded to the official website.

As for your last question, yes, it looked like one of the airport buses thing or some other kind of transportation for excursion? :shrugs:

lol I guess anything is possible in Axl's world.

Now if he thinks Fernando or Vanessa can stop him from "looking like shit" in fans' pictures, then I think he should think again. :P

All the things you mention could be possible but I still fail to see how he will let the freak show post pictures of him if he supposedly wants to have so much control. Do you think he could have them ask him for permission, or photoshop them?

Another possiblity could be that he has expressed to his closed ones his stance against the public media (assuming he actually has a problem with it) and then some of them respect it and others don't. :shrugs:

About Susan's camera roll picture, I guess it just shows that Axl was sharing an airport (?) bus ride with them, but I don't think there was much more to it than than.

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48 minutes ago, solstar said:

lol I guess anything is possible in Axl's world.

Now if he thinks Fernando or Vanessa can stop him from "looking like shit" in fans' pictures, then I think he should think again. :P

All the things you mention could be possible but I still fail to see how he will let the freak show post pictures of him if he supposedly wants to have so much control. Do you think he could have them ask him for permission, or photoshop them?

Another possiblity could be that he has expressed to his closed ones his stance against the public media (assuming he actually has a problem with it) and then some of them respect it and others don't. :shrugs:

About Susan's camera roll picture, I guess it just shows that Axl was sharing an airport (?) bus ride with them, but I don't think there was much more to it than than.

Haha... well... They do the best they can but I know most fan pictures are taken by one of them, unless you are quick enough to steal a selfie from him :P

Also, all of them follow the rule of "arm shot" or blurred Axl in the background or a shot from behind. Sometimes I wonder if he is aware of these pictures being taken or are they TB's shenanigans :shrugs:

To be honest, some of the pictures that were posted here come from dubious sources, meaning that when you trace them back its hard to find who posted which picture. For example, that one pic that terrifies @MillionsOfSpiders so much :lol:, I could never found the source or the person that posted it first, because I follow each member of the freak show that appears in that picture and I can confirm none of them posted it... So how did it make it online? It's a mistery to me.... Does Axl even know there's this picture of him on the Interwebs?

The one that was recently posted here, looks like Christmas time at Axl's home and everybody wearing shoes and putting their feet in the sofa :lol:, I have no idea where it originally comes from.... I've never seen it posted by neither of them, however, it is out in the open now.... And it's an old picture because he's wearing those loose jeans and the horrible mustache, so probably from 2012 or 2013... There's obviously someone in his inner circle that once in a while leaks a picture but how do we know this is with the consent of Axl or not?

Since there is a pattern with the pictures TB takes and uploads of him, I can conclude that some rules are applied to them. Now, the rest of pictures where he's shown in full body and appear to be taken in private context (like inside his house), look like something that doesn't have his approval.

No, I didn't mean to say there's something extra to the picture of him from Susan's camera roll but I was trying to explain the third theory of mine in which I think he may allow people around him take pics of him but could have warned them about needing permission to publish them in social media. There's a reason why we can see the picture in her roll but she never made it public, it was a mistake that her roll appeared in a video.

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3 hours ago, solstar said:

I don't think I can follow your point here, I'm afraid. What things from my previous posts do you think I'm inferring without any backup? You are actually inferring many of the same things I did.  :shrugs:

Also, my inferrences were about Axl's social life. Axl's personal life or his teeth brushing habits were not part of the discussion, so I don't see how that is relevant. :shrugs:

Right. That's my point (the bolded). I never said it meant anything more, so I guess we agree there. I also said earlier that I think he probably hangs with Sluff and they don't post pictures of those encounters, but you see, unless you or someone you know have witnessed those, here both you and I are inferring this without any real backup.

Well, I never said that Axl is the biggest star in the world or that he gets constantly photographed, but he is famous and people upload pictures of him from time to time, and that's a fact.

Again, I don't think we can compare Axl to the other people you mention. Granted, I don't really know much about their social lives, but what I do know is that when Steven Tyler was in BA last year for example, he was out and about, whereas Axl stayed in his hotel room most of the time, so that would show from starters a different behavoural pattern.

I'm sorry you get frustrated. I see that unfortunately it is a common thing in this forum. -_-

 

I want to say that I really appreciate that we have been able to have a polite and interesting conversation about this! Thank you. :) Not everyone can do that - there are a few people around the forum I have on ignore because they'd just get hostile.

We do seem to agree on some points, yes!


But the point I've been seeing over and over again in this discussion is that "There are no photos of Axl (with friends) (in social occasions) (with Duff and Slash). Ergo, he isn't spending time with them." The other point seems to be, "there are a lot of photos of him with these random people. Therefore, those must be his only friends." My point, that might be getting lost, is that we can't infer that. We can't pretend we know all about his social life or that the lack of public photos means anything other than "there's nothing public." The "pics or it didn't happen" maxim really doesn't apply.

 

Steven Tyler is extroverted to the extreme, from what I have heard - but I am really talking about them in civilian life, not on tour - and the point that celebs can and do dissolve into the crowds without getting a lot of photo documentation. I keep mentioning Johnny Depp because everyone knows where one of his apartments is, and it's in a fairly busy section of the city, and there are no public photos of him, ever. Steven Tyler lives in, IIRC, Hawaii now. When he's home, there aren't any photos of him out and about in Hawaii. When he lived in Boston, he was also out and about a lot - in one of his books he mentions going running every morning; he went to sports matches, and he's super introverted. But there were rarely, if ever, photos. Both Boston and Hawaii are huge places with a lot of tourists and people who might get starstruck...and yet, the photo documentation of people running into him or seeing him at events is very low.

Another example I heard - George Michael apparently spent a lot of time, before he died, volunteering at a shelter for either homeless people or domestic violence, I can't remember which. In London. With a lot of people around him. And nobody mentioned it, it was never in the press, nothing. Nobody said anything about it until he had passed away.

 

So I think it goes back to the point that "pics or it didn't happen" isn't accurate, not even a little.

 

 

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3 hours ago, killuridols said:

@MillionsOfSpidersH

The one that was recently posted here, looks like Christmas time at Axl's home and everybody wearing shoes and putting their feet in the sofa :lol:, I have no idea where it originally comes from.... I've never seen it posted by neither of them, however, it is out in the open now.... And it's an old picture because he's wearing those loose jeans and the horrible mustache, so probably from 2012 or 2013... There's obviously someone in his inner circle that once in a while leaks a picture but how do we know this is with the consent of Axl or not?

 

I read somewhere 21.12.2011 ;)

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9 hours ago, killuridols said:

Regardless of his crazy beliefs, he's always come across to me as a delusional person when he's given certain answers to certain hot controversial topics of his career or his life. So I don't know if I can trust him with some things he says about himself or the perception he has of himself.... But, of course, that's just my stupid opinion :shrugs:

Btw, I don't remember him talking about being introverted. Can you point out where or when he said this?

I know you didn't say anything about that. I brought it up myself and I probably made a mess in how I expressed myself. What I meant is that this subject is also something that raises a bit of doubt in me when it comes to evaluate his sense of reality and perception because the case is presented under proof that is questionable (the regression therapy revealing a memory buried deep in the mind of a 2 years old child).

Also, I never said that he can't be an introvert and have (or not have) depression or some other thing. I said some people infer that he is an introvert because he is called reclusive or doesn't seem to socialize much. Not saying that you, particularly, think or believe this.

Needing space is not something exclusive of introverts, though. That's why I think there's a general misunderstanding of the concept.

 

Yeah, I'll try to find the quote I had in mind.

And yeah, needing space sometimes is not exclusive to introverts, but they tend to need a lot more of it to re-charge their batteries and Axl seems like a person who needs a lot of space and time to-recharge too.

9 hours ago, killuridols said:

That's not what I was trying to say... Basically, I think he's a hypocrite when he points the finger at other people. He's doing that with Trump lately...

I know that nothing Axl does or did invalidates the wrong and bad his step-father or Trump could have done (or do) but that's another thing I perceive from him that, in my eyes, makes his judgement about himself or others unreliable.

Lol, he can't meet himself but he can know himself, right? You said so before, so he can compare himself to his step-father and see that he's not (or was not) that far from being a dangerous man himself, with the things he's done. I also know that people around him were terrified of him as well... That's the irony I wanted to remark from his statement, not analyzing the literal aspect of his words.

Yeah but so what? Most of us are hypocrites on some level and have donge things we're not proud of (maybe not the degree Axl has, but still). By that logic, a majority of the population shouldn't be pointing fingers or criticizing anything.

And everyone's got a sob story to tell and even people who have done fucked up things themselves usually have people that have hurt them or that they're scared of. That's all he was expressing and imo he wasn't trying to distract from himself or anything, just making a statement regarding how he feels about his step father. Which is perfectly legitimate in my eyes and I don't see a reason to turn that statement into more than it is or to necessarily interpret so much negativity or irony into it.

Also, who around him was terrified of him? Not asking to doubt your statement, but because I'm curious. Erin, yeah. And that Sheila chick mentioned being scared, but she wasn't around him more than a couple of hours. But you make it sound like multiple people. So who are the people (apart from Erin and maybe Gina) around him that were terrified of him?

 

9 hours ago, killuridols said:

The child abuse allegations against his step-father are on the same boat as Axl's rape allegations, don't you think? So far we have no info on any of them.

I couldn't say if child abuse sinks lower than domestic violence. I tend to avoid putting that kind of suffering in a hierarchy, even though I think rape must be the worst to happen to anyone, being beat up (to death sometimes) just for being a woman seems pretty fucked up to me too.

I don't know if Axl's step father has made any attempt to change or repent... How would we know? 

Have we ever heard of Axl apologizing to Erin, Stephanie, Sheila, etc.? Did he ever show any repentance for singing inmigrants and fa****? Calling others the N word? Never heard either....so who knows...

No, I don't think so. He was aware of and talking about his messed up childhood long before he did any regression therapy, so he consciously remembered at least all the physical abuse and the crazy shit his step father did and I really doubt he was making it all up. Also, I think it's significant that Axl's siblings have never disagreed with anything he claimed and stuck with Axl throughout their entire lives. They're both just as estranged from their biological family as he is and the few times they (or rather Amy, because the other one has never really talked in public) have commented on anything, it supported the things Axl has said.

And yeah, putting hierarchies on suffering is kind of pointless, but I know that my instinctual reaction to people harming children is by far the strongest and I know many other people feel the same. There's a reason why child abusers are treated as the lowest of the low in prison, even by other inmates.

As far as Axl's step father making any attempts to change or repent- the way I see it, he could leave his children the fuck alone at least, after all these years. That's the bare minimum he could do and it requires literally zero effort. But apparently he's not even capable of that, so I see no indication of the guy becoming a better person if he still manages to upset his children to this day. I don't know what he did, but Amy sounded seriously pissed off and upset when she called him a satanic piece of shit or something, so it probably was something bad.

And apart from all that, I agree with the point @Rocketqueen76 made: I'd rather not doubt people who claim to be survivors of various kinds of abuse too much, even if it turns out later I was wrong for believing them. Having been wrong doesn't hurt and affect me, but me doubting and questioning someone who was abused does hurt and affect that person.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Frey said:

Yeah, I'll try to find the quote I had in mind.

And yeah, needing space sometimes is not exclusive to introverts, but they tend to need a lot more of it to re-charge their batteries and Axl seems like a person who needs a lot of space and time to-recharge too.

All I could find are some quotes from the 2008 chats in this forum that could lead to believe he is an introvert. But nothing so accurate as to actually "quote" him he ever labeled himself as that.

Here is the first:

FAN QUESTION: I have cyclothemia and sometimes get this feeling that I cant be around people and need my own space and area, how do you find the bipolar effect you, if you dont mind me ask?

Axl's response: 

I've not been diagnosed as being bipolar though many misconstrue statements I made earlier as alluding to such and unfortunately there's been an abundance of misguided or unqualified speculation of various events but I definitely can relate to needing my own space. 

In my world all bi polar means (and not to offend or make light of those suffering from a genuine condition or involved with those who are) is that someone can try to take cheap uneducated shots or try to claim I'm bipolar thus justifying why they should get paid a financial settlement for whatever nonsense they're up to. Fortunately that hasn't proved successful.

Is that what people are using to infer he's an introvert? Pretty weak evidence I must say:shrugs:

Here's another...

FAN QUESTION: How do you feel about meeting your fans? What is the best way for a fan to meet you, if they happen to be a dude (since the stereotype is that rockers only wanna meet hot chicks). What do you think of fans who get GNR related tattoos?

Axl's response:

I like meeting all kinds of fans but after a show (I realize that's the only time some may feel they have an opportunity but w/the exception of close friends around...) not to be offensive but I'm generally not looking forward to walking off stage to hang with guys whether they're fans or not. I deal with Guns all day every day so coming off stage to talk about the band is just like more of the same. Unless there's pressing business I wanna forget that till it's time to go at it again the next day.

Nothing in this answer tells me he is an introvert. It is pretty normal that people want to wind down after work. This is a job for him so I perfectly understand what he's saying. Not exclusive of introverts at all.

I'm not sure how we could accurately know that he needs lots of time and space to "recharge" batteries... Do we know for how long he sleeps or stays away from people?

5 hours ago, Frey said:

Yeah but so what? Most of us are hypocrites on some level and have donge things we're not proud of (maybe not the degree Axl has, but still). By that logic, a majority of the population shouldn't be pointing fingers or criticizing anything.

And everyone's got a sob story to tell and even people who have done fucked up things themselves usually have people that have hurt them or that they're scared of. That's all he was expressing and imo he wasn't trying to distract from himself or anything, just making a statement regarding how he feels about his step father. Which is perfectly legitimate in my eyes and I don't see a reason to turn that statement into more than it is or to necessarily interpret so much negativity or irony into it.

So what?

So what nothing. It was just an observation I made about something he said :shrugs: 

Do I need written or oral permission to comment on his public statements? Because all of us here are commenting on things he publicly says or said so I'm not doing any different.

Most of us are hypocrites on some level but not to this level. 

5 hours ago, Frey said:

No, I don't think so. He was aware of and talking about his messed up childhood long before he did any regression therapy, so he consciously remembered at least all the physical abuse and the crazy shit his step father did and I really doubt he was making it all up. Also, I think it's significant that Axl's siblings have never disagreed with anything he claimed and stuck with Axl throughout their entire lives. They're both just as estranged from their biological family as he is and the few times they (or rather Amy, because the other one has never really talked in public) have commented on anything, it supported the things Axl has said.

Lol, are you lumping all things together so you can give more weight to your argument?

I said nothing about the physical abuse, the strict upbringing and the other things he claims his step father has done to him. I believe all of that is highly possible.

My focus is on the abuse he mentions he found out with the help of regression therapy. I don't know if this is the only "evidence" he has or there are other things he could put together to build the puzzle, so when I say a little bit of doubt is raised in my mind, it is strictly related to that.

I found this article to be interesting because it was published in 1994 and it's pretty close in time to Axl's famous interview: 

Quote

THE idea that childhood memories of abuse could be uncovered through regression therapies was first suggested in the US; many of those who claimed to have done so were influenced by a book called The Courage To Heal, published in 1988, which suggests that one in three girls and one in seven boys have been sexually abused. The book recommends confronting abusers and publicising their supposed actions. A US backlash against recovered memories is already well under way; concerned psychiatrists and psychologists, along with accused families, responded by setting up the False Memory Syndrome Foundation.

Here's a link if you'd like to read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/the-dangers-of-memory-can-regression-therapy-by-hypnosis-produce-false-recollections-of-sexual-abuse-5431250.html

And here's another I found interesting as well: http://www.hypnocenter.com/articles/therapist-beware-of-false-memories

-----

There is no tangible evidence to say the siblings are both estranged from the biological family. In the case of Stuart, he doesn't seem to be close to Axl nowadays.   We have no idea who other relatives of Axl may still be in contact with any of them. There's no information about aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews, nieces....

5 hours ago, Frey said:

And apart from all that, I agree with the point @Rocketqueen76 made: I'd rather not doubt people who claim to be survivors of various kinds of abuse too much, even if it turns out later I was wrong for believing them. Having been wrong doesn't hurt and affect me, but me doubting and questioning someone who was abused does hurt and affect that person.

I'm not here to discuss the personal life of any forum member and I don't respond to passive agressive comments. Like I explained above (and this got to be the third time already) I am strictly talking about the case of Axl Rose and the specific claim he made based on the regression therapy technique.

In general and in first instance, I tend to not doubt the people who claim to be victims of abuse and also, in general, I assume this people have no significant reason to lie about it, but since I have some formation in law I also tend to be skeptical of some things and I don't think it harms anyone to have a different perspective of things, because there's always several sides to a single story and it is in my nature to ever look for more.

Making false claims and accusations also hurt innocent people. People who spend time in jail and later turn out to be innocent, there are many cases like that and their lives and their families have also been destroyed.

None of us have enough evidence to support this or that claim. I think we all can empathize with a story and analyze it from our own perspective without having to make it look like this is a competition of moral values and who's the forum's king or queen of compassion.

Edited by killuridols
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9 minutes ago, killuridols said:

...

No those are not the quotes I meant. I remember him specifically saying he was shy and introverted, and like I said, I'll look for the quote.

 

9 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Lol, are you lumping all things together so you can give more weight to your argument?

I said nothing about the physical abuse, the strict upbringing and the other things he claims his step father has done to him. I believe all of that is highly possible.

My focus is on the abuse he mentions he found out with the help of regression therapy. I don't know if this is the only "evidence" he has or there are other things he could put together to build the puzzle, so when I say a little bit of doubt is raised in my mind, it is strictly related to that.

I found this article to be interesting because it was published in 1994 and it's pretty close in time to Axl's famous interview: 

Here's a link if you'd like to read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/the-dangers-of-memory-can-regression-therapy-by-hypnosis-produce-false-recollections-of-sexual-abuse-5431250.html

And here's another I found interesting as well: http://www.hypnocenter.com/articles/therapist-beware-of-false-memories

 

What?

You said "the child abuse allegations against his step-father are on the same boat as Axl's rape allegations, don't you think?" which I interpreted as you saying that you think his claims about being (physically and mentally) abused as a child are equally as doubtful to you as the various rape allegations by Axl and other people. So I presented evidence why I don't think this is the case. If you meant something else, then I misunderstood.

And you don't need to convince me that regression therapy is bullshit, I'm perfectly aware of that and have never hidden my disdain for the whole thing and the frauds who pushed him into it.

 

18 minutes ago, killuridols said:

There is no tangible evidence to say the siblings are both estranged from the biological family. In the case of Stuart, he doesn't seem to be close to Axl nowadays.   We have no idea who other relatives of Axl may still be in contact with any of them. There's no information about aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews, nieces....

I'm not here to discuss the personal life of any forum member and I don't respond to passive agressive comments. Like I explained above (and this got to be the third time already) I am strictly talking about the case of Axl Rose and the specific claim he made based on the regression therapy technique.

...

Yes, there is some evidence. The times Amy talked about "found families" or something and the time she raged about her step father do paint that picture. So she's estranged from the only member of her immediate family that is still alive (apart from her siblings), as her mother, grandmother, and so on are all dead by now. I don't see how aunts, cousins, etc. play into this because they've never played a significant role in this drama anyway as far as we know. No one knows about Stuart, but going by the stuff coming from Amy again, I get the impression things are fine between all three of them (remember when she said she's thankful for her brothers Axl and Stuart on Thanksgiving?)

And I wasn't commenting about the personal life of any forum members either. What I said about rather believing someone than doubting them applies to Axl as well as any other person saying they suffered some kind of abuse, it was a general statement.

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I'm not here to discuss the personal life of any forum member and I don't respond to passive agressive comments. Like I explained above (and this got to be the third time already) I am strictly talking about the case of Axl Rose and the specific claim he made based on the regression therapy technique.

In general and in first instance, I tend to not doubt the people who claim to be victims of abuse and also, in general, I assume this people have no significant reason to lie about it, but since I have some formation in law I also tend to be skeptical of some things and I don't think it harms anyone to have a different perspective of things, because there's always several sides to a single story and it is in my nature to ever look for more.

Making false claims and accusations also hurt innocent people. People who spend time in jail and later turn out to be innocent, there are many cases like that and their lives and their families have also been destroyed.

None of us have enough evidence to support this or that claim. I think we all can empathize with a story and analyze it from our own perspective without having to make it look like this is a competition of moral values and who's the forum's king or queen of compassion.

yeah I agree with you on this. I have always been skeptical about the regression teraphy he went through and I am doubtful about the claim he made of having been raped by his biological father at age of 2 because I don''t trust people who were sourrounding him at that time and the methods they used to cure him.

Certainly I believe Axl when he talks about his family and the fact that he grew up in an abusive home, it's his life and he's able to recall his childhood and teenage years memories , but we can't be sure about everything we read about this kind of situation because the truth about personal traumas can be distorted without a proper cure.

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34 minutes ago, Frey said:

No those are not the quotes I meant. I remember him specifically saying he was shy and introverted, and like I said, I'll look for the quote.

 

At about three mins in he says he was introverted as a kid and still is. 

Edited by MillionsOfSpiders
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I'm not going to quote anyone here because it would be way too long, but my earlier comment regarding the current topic was in no means passive aggressive. It was not I repeat not aimed at anyone specific, I just added my opinion to the pot. With that being said, @killuridols I don't think that this is a pissing match to see who wears the crown for having the most compassion, just that this kind of topic can push certain buttons and cause people to react strongly. No offense is meant by this post.

Edited by Rocketqueen76
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12 hours ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

Disclaimer:

The words that follow are in now way meant to be offensive, or viewed as a personal attack. 

In regards to rape and abuse, I don't think it is some kind of mental delusion on Axl's part. Children who are abused either physically or verbally often wear those scars for life and the pain doesn't just fade away.  Unless you've experienced it for yourself, you can't begin to understand the huge toll something like that can have on someone, especially when it comes to personal relationships. I can tell you, that the worst thing my family/friends could have told me in that situation was that they didn't believe me.

As for the trump thing...yeah his ass needs to be called out continuously. There is no random finger pointing there, Axl and many other celebrities are just calling it like they see it.

 

Co-signing this. All of this. 10000%. They've done study after study after study on how trauma from childhood abuse can be carried for life and manifested later. It's real and it can't be discounted.

As far as Trump is concerned, what is happening with him and his entourage is not normal and not okay. Damn straight it needs to be called out, and I am glad that so many celebrities are using their voices to speak up.

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21 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

I'm not going to quote anyone here because it would be way too long, but my earlier comment regarding the current topic was in no means passive aggressive. It was not I repeat not aimed at anyone specific, I just added my opinion to the pot. With that being said, @killuridols I don't think that this is a pissing match to see who wears the crown for having the most compassion, just that this kind of topic can push certain buttons and cause people to react strongly. No offense is meant by this post.

I thought your post was brave and added a perspective that was simple and honest.

:)   

20 minutes ago, stella said:



As far as Trump is concerned, what is happening with him and his entourage is not normal and not okay. Damn straight it needs to be called out, and I am glad that so many celebrities are using their voices to speak up.

After elections, the conversations about politics tend to subside a bit. This time it's different, as is evident in the various protests etc  and I would much rather see the celebrities I follow discuss their opinions on things that are affecting large numbers of people rather than just pictures of their latest meal, their duck lips, their work outs or some other frivolous thing that is just  for self serving reasons.   

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