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the 2002 and 2006 Chinese delays


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4 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

I think Axl checked out by 2002.

He was tired of being dicked around by the record company about the album and then he was dicked around again for the tour.

Compare/contrast everything about Axl in 2001 and 2002. It's like two different people. 

 

I think the consensus is that the Antiquiet leaks are the Andy Wallace mixes. 

The timetable on the other leaks are a bit hazy but I would say that those date back to 2002 with Roy Thomas Baker.

I say that because Mike Piazza played stuff in 2003 when the band was pretty much inactive. Also, Tommy was referring to the older material as old songs / "stuff that has been around forever" in 2002 so you have to think not much was changed.

 

2002 always looked to me like his mid-life crisis tour :lol: But yea, you could tell he was tired of the shit he was getting by then.

I thought Mike Piazza only played the '99 demos but I don't know much about that event.

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35 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

The 2002 band could've worked long term, but Axl obviously wasn't in the right headspace for a comeback tour (the riots, late starts, general inconsistency). 2006 should've been the year though. The tour went well, Better and the '99 demos had a good reception, and I think Axl was still passionate about CD/new albums - he announced the March 7(?) date in late 2006 I think. I imagine most of 2007 and early 2008 was spent bickering with the label working out the Best Buy deal.

 

On a sidenote, I listened to the 2007 MSL leaks for the first time in years the other day and fuck they're awesome. The songs are so much better with less layers and Ron/Frank (CD especially suffers from the fretless). I've read that these demos were from around 2004, and the antiquiet demos from 2006. @Wagszilla know anything about that?

Agree on that 2006 should've been the year for CD! would have made more impact if it were released just in time when the tour started. Axl was really great in 2006-07. These were the only years i actually liked the "new Guns"

One would only dream if this semi-reunion had happened in 2006 :headbang:

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All these 90s bands like Metallica and Guns just were dicking around from 1998 to 2008. It was the last throw of the dice for the music industry. I mean Creed sold over 30M albums in the US with three albums during that time. A big what if.

All these 90s bands like Metallica and Guns just were dicking around from 1998 to 2008. It was the last throw of the dice for the music industry. I mean Creed sold over 30M albums in the US with three albums during that time. A big what if.

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7 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

2002 always looked to me like his mid-life crisis tour :lol: But yea, you could tell he was tired of the shit he was getting by then.

I thought Mike Piazza only played the '99 demos but I don't know much about that event.

IIRC Mike Piazza played the 2006 demo (meaning the "rerecorded version" as it appears on the 2006 leak). Which would make sense, because judging from the 2002 Boston promos (of CD, SOD, and Maddy), the songs already had Brain on them by 2002, and not Josh Freese who I assume to be on the 99 demos.

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2 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

No, Mike Piazza played "IRS" in 2003 which featured Buckethead.

We didn't get the 1999 tracks until 2006 which came from an ex-engineer and was the same source we got Catcher and Jackie Chan from.

If Azoff had is way, we would've had a reunion in 2010-2011 after 2 additional new albums were released.

This, all pissed away because of touring royalties.

Can you imagine? 3 fuckin' CDs and Axl's voice in 2010 shape with a reunited Guns.

The world is fucking bullshit man.  

That would've been something!! But noooo... Haha just got thinking about when i first got my hands of the first like 30 sec of Chinese Democracy leak.. That build up just before the intro guitar. So much exctement!! I was so happy just to hear a couple of seconds of a new song from the "mythical" Chinese Democracy. I hope we get some sort of music some day.. :)

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-label wanted a smash hit and the album didn't have one. (update: possible this wasn't the case according to a poster here who spoke with buckethead's team. possible Axl was just salty they told him the album sucked)

-instead of coming up with something else, Axl sat around adding overdubs at his own leisure.

-label added up the bill and realized they were wasting an obscene amount of money.

-by that point the interest in a GNR album had dried up and they looked for way to break even on their investment.

Edited by -W.A.R-
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50 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

No, Mike Piazza played "IRS" in 2003 which featured Buckethead.

We didn't get the 1999 tracks until 2006 which came from an ex-engineer and was the same source we got Catcher and Jackie Chan from.

 

I knew it was IRS but thought it was the '99 version for some reason. Like I said I don't know much about the event. There's no recording of the interview, right?

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5 hours ago, Silent Jay said:

I really think that it was a great thing to have Ron on the record, not on every song (he's even on this I love), but his fretless thing just rocks.

I thought they re-recorded it in 2004 for RTB? Then backing vocals and fretless guitars in 2006-7? Axl said in 2012 at the Philly show before You Could Be Mine that he got sued by corporate radios that were backing the tour. And then clear channel wanted to fuck this up.

Still the 2006 tour was a success with more than one million tickets sold, Avenged Sevenfold, Bullet For My Valentine, Sebastian Bach, Korn, Eagles Of Death Metal supporting the tour along with the fact that walmart started things rolling with Black Ice in 2008.

They re-recorded with RTB in 2000. By 2001 Ezrin had said it wasnt ready to mix so it wasnt. So they go on tour. I guess it was a tour for the release. Then it gets cancelled. Then Costanzo comes in and they started re-recording parts of it, some of it was more like remixing/digital editing, some like the session in 2004 of Shacklers, If the world, Scraped, Sorry seemed like re-recording or adding parts. 

The big question is why it didnt come out in 2004. The two main things are the label ordered an ultimatum to release it or they would put out the GH. And VR were coming out. 

Maybe Axl just wanted to dodge a head on with VR. The record didnt change much from 2004 to 2008? I know Ron added parts, possible vocals on TIL and Sorry. Franks drums. But if they went in 2004 with Bucket and Brain who knows by 2008 we have got CD II. 

There's no really right answer because CD was probably improved by what happened. 

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5 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

No, Mike Piazza played "IRS" in 2003 which featured Buckethead.

We didn't get the 1999 tracks until 2006 which came from an ex-engineer and was the same source we got Catcher and Jackie Chan from.

If Azoff had is way, we would've had a reunion in 2010-2011 after 2 additional new albums were released.

This, all pissed away because of touring royalties. Well that and Axl eventually smelling a rat about the reunion.

Can you imagine? 3 fuckin' CDs and Axl's voice in 2010 shape with a reunited Guns. 

The world is fucking bullshit man.  

You're saying that it's because Axl fell out with Azoff over the release and touring that we didn't get CD II in 2010 like Axl suggested. 

I think I read somewhere Azoff wanted Slash to tour CD then be on the follow up. Axl said recently it was always possible but he didn't feel it was right. Like he wanted CD to stand alone. 

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1 minute ago, Wagszilla said:

I'll have to look-up the exact quotes again but Azoff's plan was to empty the vault.

It would've helped Axl achieve his vision and it would've paved the way for the reunion. Azoff would've been making NITL money off that tour.

Axl wanted or hinted at CD II being out November 2009 "same bat time, same bat channel" so 2009 (CD2) and 2010 (CD3). 

You're probably right regarding Axl wanting CD to stand alone without Slash after the bad blood was reinvigorated but the possibility existed for Slash to play on it a couple of years prior. 

Instead, Axl wanted nothing to do with Slash and wanted to hammer CD for another 5 years. He fired Azoff, sued Azoff, and we had to suffer through DJ Ashba being lead guitarist in a cover band of a cover band.

Dark times. 

Strange because it ended in 2011 really. The CD tour. 

Slash said that Axl's response to him going up to his house was about promoting CD. Almost like there is no real beef but Axl wanted to make his statement without Slash attached. 

I guess Axl wanted to stir clear of the he needs Slash thing. Maybe Slash didn't even really want to be part of it. But now he's playing some of those songs live so it was all a bit of a folly. 

There was a rumor of a record getting rejected in 2010. So that explains that. It was more planned and didnt happen rather than flat rejected. 

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33 minutes ago, wasted said:

They re-recorded with RTB in 2000. By 2001 Ezrin had said it wasnt ready to mix so it wasnt. So they go on tour. I guess it was a tour for the release. Then it gets cancelled. Then Costanzo comes in and they started re-recording parts of it, some of it was more like remixing/digital editing, some like the session in 2004 of Shacklers, If the world, Scraped, Sorry seemed like re-recording or adding parts. 

The big question is why it didnt come out in 2004. The two main things are the label ordered an ultimatum to release it or they would put out the GH. And VR were coming out. 

Maybe Axl just wanted to dodge a head on with VR. The record didnt change much from 2004 to 2008? I know Ron added parts, possible vocals on TIL and Sorry. Franks drums. But if they went in 2004 with Bucket and Brain who knows by 2008 we have got CD II. 

There's no really right answer because CD was probably improved by what happened. 

In a rock battle between Contraband and Chinese Democracy which side do you stand on? People would have gone crazy over this. Ax vs. Scott, BH vs. Slash. Free press, everyones suing everyone. Then when it's time to do a rematch, CDII would have kicked Libertad ass.

In all fairness, GH was a great idea, it sold like four time CD's figures. I'm sure Adler and Stradlin enjoyed the mooneye.

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21 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

In a rock battle between Contraband and Chinese Democracy which side do you stand on? People would have gone crazy over this. Ax vs. Scott, BH vs. Slash. Free press, everyones suing everyone. Then when it's time to do a rematch, CDII would have kicked Libertad ass.

In all fairness, GH was a great idea, it sold like four time CD's figures. I'm sure Adler and Stradlin enjoyed the mooneye.

But both Axl and Slash and Duff opposed the GH based on the tracklisting? But nobody turned down the royalties. 

Contraband v CD would have crystslized the who is more GNR. Axl sidestepped by saying he didn't want to promote their stuff. He wanted his side of the story out, not just fuel the feud. This my intrepretation. 

I have thought that the post CD touring was just strengthening Axl's position for the reunion his way. He only went into it when everyone was kind of begging. Axl got some things like nu guns members and play CD songs. It wasn't a AFD reunion with him getting equal pay as Steven. A lot of scenarios worked out for Axl.  Without CD getting released and toured clear of everybody maybe he would have looked desperate. Then it might not happen. Axl ruined by CD disaster blames Slash etc. 

Edited by wasted
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I think some of the Chinese delays were caused by a lot of shit that went wrong for Axl. It sounds like an excuse, but he described the process as a nightmare and the release of it as a miracle.

The label, producers, lawsuits which delayed lyrics writing for example, managers, tours that Axl didn't want to do, band members quitting all probably had a lot to do with why it took so long and also why the final version sounds the way it does.

The tinkering was a part of it I believe, the insecurities, but you want to finish what you started, especially if it took you 10 years to get there. I think Axl just wanted it to have a chance of being it's own thing, Axl's musical triumph and then he needed to tour it and that was also delayed cause Azzof and his shenanigans.

A lot of it wasn't because Axl was lazy, but Richard, Brian May, Alice Cooper, and others have said Axl is a perfectionist so that does "delay" albums, but I believe he just wants to make a statement and only release a quality product. Probably takes it too far sometimes.

Edited by Rovim
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2 minutes ago, wasted said:

But both Axl and Slash and Duff opposed the GH based on the tracklisting? But nobody turned down the royalties. 

Contraband v CD would have crystslized the who is more GNR. Axl sidestepped by saying he didn't want to promote their stuff. He wanted his side of the story out, not just fuel the feud. 

I have thought that the post CD touring was just strengthening Axl's position for the reunion his way. He only went into it when everyone was kind of begging. Axl got some things like nu guns members and play CD songs. It wasn't a AFD reunion with him getting equal pay as Steven. A lot of scenarios worked out for Axl. 

Exactly like what Slash said before Libertad's debacle, Axl has proven himself 'the stronger.

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30 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I think some of the Chinese delays were caused by a lot of shit that went wrong for Axl. It sounds like an excuse, but he described the process as a nightmare and the release of it as a miracle.

The label, producers, lawsuits which delayed lyrics writing for example, managers, tours that Axl didn't want to do, band members quitting all probably had a lot to do with why it took so long and also why the final version sounds the way it does.

The tinkering was a part of it I believe, the insecurities, but you want to finish what you started, especially if it took you 10 years to get there. I think Axl just wanted it to have a chance of being it's own thing, Axl's musical triumph and then he needed to tour it and that was also delayed cause Azzof and his shenanigans.

A lot of it wasn't because Axl was lazy, but Richard, Brian May, Alice Cooper, and others have said Axl is a perfectionist so that does "delay" albums, but I believe he just wants to make a statement and only release a quality product. Probably takes it too far sometimes.

I noticed that if something went wrong it took about 3 years to correct. Bucket quit in 2004 but Ron didn't record until 2006? Also the approx 4 year release cycle means if not 2004 then the next real window is 2008. 

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Should've came out in 02. Axl was always gonna catch hell for keeping the Guns name and no Slash and all that, but I think that band at that time could've found a fan base. If the album was good of course. From what I've heard over time I think it would have been better personally.

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not to forget

- according to Merck Mercuraidis, ex manager, Axl rarely ever felt inspired to work on the album. And he only wanted these vocals on the album that were recorded during the days when he was inspired and driven. Kinda like - Axl never went to work, only waited to be possessed. Or whatever, however you wanna put it. Which was 2-3 days of work every couple of months.

- in 2002 and 2006 they said the albums were all done only to cheat promoters to even consider booking tours for GNR. In fact, the album was nowhere near done and the band had to tour to raise more funds to finish it (read: pay for studio on the days when Axl doesn't show up)

- when the album was done, they couldn't just release it. They had to find someone who would buy it off of the record label, which, at that time, had no more hopes of earning any money off of. They wanted to wait for anyone to sell it to in order to do some kind of damage control.

- in the end nobody wanted to buy the rights for the album from the record label, and thus relieve them from it. So they wanted for a good moment to release it. Not a good moment in sense of "when Axl feels like it", but more like that Wal Mart / Best Buy exclusive offert, combined with free-Dr-Pepper-for-everybody, the Antiquiet leaks (free publicity) and the Rockstar game.

- and what the fakk was Tommy saying when he said he and Axl are dissapointed with the album bikoz the record label basically STOLE it from Axl and released it when it was still UNFINISHED (??? dude, lay off the crack)

 

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They need to give up on the idea of ever releasing another album. Just put out songs as and when they come along and stick 'em on a soundtrack or something like Sympathy for the Devil and Oh My God.

That's probably what Axl should have done with CD, too, given how the leakers ended up doing exactly that for him.

Edited by Stress Fracture
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I would guess Axl's "unconventional work habits" meets legal disputes meets corporate meddling and financial pressure.

Not to bring this up again, but I bet we would've had it waaaaaaaaaay sooner (likely 02) if it were labelled as Axl solo. People would've also been less harsh and more open-minded about the album and the new band, especially the great, wondrous freak show era. 

It sucks too, because this is absolutely my favorite subject with Guns and we know next to nothing about it.  Table scraps of info. at best. 

Edited by BangoSkank
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30 minutes ago, Stress Fracture said:

They need to give up on the idea of ever releasing another album. Just put out songs as and when they come along and stick 'em on a soundtrack or something like Sympathy for the Devil and Oh My God.

That's probably what Axl should have done with CD, too, given how the leakers ended up doing exactly that for him.

Realistically I think the best we're gonna get is 3-4 new songs on another Greatest Hits release. But I agree with the singles idea if they won't do albums.

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On 25 February 2017 at 10:05 PM, whatashame said:

not to forget

- according to Merck Mercuraidis, ex manager, Axl rarely ever felt inspired to work on the album. And he only wanted these vocals on the album that were recorded during the days when he was inspired and driven. Kinda like - Axl never went to work, only waited to be possessed. Or whatever, however you wanna put it. Which was 2-3 days of work every couple of months.

- in 2002 and 2006 they said the albums were all done only to cheat promoters to even consider booking tours for GNR. In fact, the album was nowhere near done and the band had to tour to raise more funds to finish it (read: pay for studio on the days when Axl doesn't show up)

- when the album was done, they couldn't just release it. They had to find someone who would buy it off of the record label, which, at that time, had no more hopes of earning any money off of. They wanted to wait for anyone to sell it to in order to do some kind of damage control.

- in the end nobody wanted to buy the rights for the album from the record label, and thus relieve them from it. So they wanted for a good moment to release it. Not a good moment in sense of "when Axl feels like it", but more like that Wal Mart / Best Buy exclusive offert, combined with free-Dr-Pepper-for-everybody, the Antiquiet leaks (free publicity) and the Rockstar game.

- and what the fakk was Tommy saying when he said he and Axl are dissapointed with the album bikoz the record label basically STOLE it from Axl and released it when it was still UNFINISHED (??? dude, lay off the crack)

 

That sounds about right. The album was not finished by 2001 but they could tour. But why did they stop touring. Was it just the fur coat riot/ clear channel cancel tour? 

I feel like the album was done by 2006 but Axl wanted Ron and Frank on it. A version of the album was always done. 

I think Tommy is talking about the release of CD. The booklet, the 1 cd released instead of 2. If anything Azoff probably held back the follow up to have Slash on it. This is where the triangulation of conjecture is at this point. 

Mr X would say don't ask who but why. 

I would say not releasing the 99 Beavan record is the catalyst. Part of the reason why is the line up and hence sound of the record was not "GNR" enough. Re-recorded for grandness. 

In a way I see Axl's point he had 30 songs, 2 albums but no real support or way to be successful with it. When you look at what was happening with Geffen or Interscope and the landscape it wasn't that easy. I mean Slash and Duff didnt get it together until 2004 themselves with Contraband. 

Edited by wasted
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9 hours ago, Silent Jay said:

not sure Slash kept shouting some random inaudible drunk stuff.

True Axl never really had a public breakdown about the feud. He never caved and said I want you back, it's all my fault.

Even for the reunion he said the first thing he said was the stuff in Slash's book isn't real. 

It seems like a misunderstanding with Doug throwing smoke bombs which kept the show on the road. After it was over everyone was like what happened? You won! We did? 

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