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the 2002 and 2006 Chinese delays


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Enjoying this thread, reading back through the old stories us fanatics collectively pieced together with little information.

Wanted to bring up another piece of that puzzle - remember during the '02 tour, Finck would post funny/weird/strange pics after each gig on his site.

There was the one w/ a KFC bucket on a bear statue, which there was speculation he and Bucket had a quiet feud.

Then after the Philly riot, he posted an abstract piece of art w/ an upside-down crown and "AXL" written somewhere near it. (I think that's right - it's been a while and I haven't seen the pic since then) - Then he deleted it the next day. Always was curious what happened there, or what that meaning was.

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2002 was an implosion year.

The tour implosion coincided with Roy Thomas Baker being fired and Tom Zutaut being fired. I'm sure the confidence was pretty eroded at the point. The confidence of the record company, the confidence of the GN'R team. The notion that Axl was ready to take it out when he had these numerous lawsuits stemming from the tour and a team of people who were dismissed who were creatively trying to steer the ship, was pretty preposterous. 

There was obviously a moment there where they thought they had momentum, lost it, spectacularly, and ran for cover. When they regrouped, for whatever reason Caram Costanzo was now tinkering with the album and the rest they say, is history. 

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8 hours ago, wasted said:

The 2004 bail has no real reason.

The others there's some kind of explanation. 

VR or maybe just label demands? 

 

I could see Axl not wanting to go head to head with VR. Spending 6 or 7 years working on his album only to have it outperformed by Slash/Duff's new band could have driven him over the edge.

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5 hours ago, Modano09 said:

I could see Axl not wanting to go head to head with VR. Spending 6 or 7 years working on his album only to have it outperformed by Slash/Duff's new band could have driven him over the edge.

Without Contraband, CD probably would have sold 4 mil. But the media would have destroyed CD and Axl in this head to head. In the end GH created another old Guns moment and VR were like the GNR reunion record.

Potentially though CD could have sold 4 mil in 2004. But after that it probably wasn't going to hence the BB bail out. 

The only way to change the GNR expectations would be to release the 99 album and build off it. But the label paid for a GNR album and Axl seemed to want to live up to the name. 

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I'm envious of those who were on the forum during those years before the release of CD.  So much intrigue.  All these bits of info that are still being pieced together.  But that must sound masochistic to those who lived through it?

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2 hours ago, soon said:

I'm envious of those who were on the forum during those years before the release of CD.  So much intrigue.  All these bits of info that are still being pieced together.  But that must sound masochistic to those who lived through it?

You know there are some sick freaks who will pay for that very pleasure. I see it more as teaching me to be thankful for what I have. To say it feels like a missed opputunity is an understatement. But sometimes the lesson you don't want is the best kind of teacher.

Id love to one day get a box set release of CD. I want to hear the 99 CD mix because of the "earthy" sound for lack of a better word. Like that IRS demo from 99 sounds like GNR covering something off Tiny Music from STP.

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My take on the making of CD is that the recording company and Axl didn't see eye to eye on the material being presented. Axl had one vision and the record company had another, and this is primarily why it took so long to be released. I actually think Axl was satisfied with the record in 2002 but the record co wanted to milk it for all they could, hence the CD tour for like 5 years. 

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I do not claim to be a GN'R "insider," but I've talked to many people in the Buckethead camp (I have loved Buckethead since the mid 1990s and been to dozens of shows) and once had the pleasure of speaking with an A&R guy for Geffen who worked with GN'R from 1992-2000 (and still stays in touch with many people involved in the band). I do not know many specifics, but have pieced at least this together:

-2002: The label was never thrilled with the album, but as other mentioned, there was hype about Axl returning to the public and a sense still existed that Axl could at least pull off something interesting with a newer GN'R lineup. Furthermore, this was still the era of "blockbuster" albums from big names selling based purely on hype. Even if the label did not like it, they figured if they got it out in 2002, it would sell on the brand alone and they could wash their hands of the whole thing. Honestly, they would have released just about anything Axl turned in. As a matter of fact, I have been told that this rumor about an "early" version of the album being turned down is simply untrue. The label may have given some optional feedback, but if Axl had turned it down, they would have released it as is. Apparently, when the 2002 North America got aborted, the album really was 85-90% done. Unfortunately, when Clear Channel pulled the plug, Axl went completely incommunicado and Buckethead left a few months later. 

 

-2006: This time, it really was much more of the label's fault. By 2006, it was crystal clear that Duff and Slash would be open to rejoining GN'R, and the label thought they could hold out until it happened. Hell, if what Scott Weiland said was true, some preliminary talks may have even begun. From what I've been told, although Axl missed the original March 6, 2007 deadline, he had the album turned into the label by mid-2007. The problem was, quite simply, the label did not know what the hell to do with it. At that point, revenue from recorded music had started declining in a major way, and there seemed to be no reasonable way to release the album. As previous posted mentioned, we had a perfect storm of a powerful manager, leaks which received a lot of attention, the popularity of Guitar hero and Rockband, and the beginning of record being exclusive to a certain store. 

Edited by themadcaplaughs
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On 2/25/2017 at 3:03 PM, Stress Fracture said:

They need to give up on the idea of ever releasing another album. Just put out songs as and when they come along and stick 'em on a soundtrack or something like Sympathy for the Devil and Oh My God.

That's probably what Axl should have done with CD, too, given how the leakers ended up doing exactly that for him.

Agreed. He needs to be forced to release stuff. Put him on a schedule, like a soundtrack release. He was forced to release Oh my God as a demo to make the deadline for End of Days. The irony is that OMG ended up being better than 90% of Chinese Democracy even in its demo form.

On 2/28/2017 at 0:50 PM, soon said:

I'm envious of those who were on the forum during those years before the release of CD.  So much intrigue.  All these bits of info that are still being pieced together.  But that must sound masochistic to those who lived through it?

Honestly -- it was sort of interesting between 2002-2003, but quickly became irritating. I became a fan in late '02 and was on this forum back then. There was a sense from even many old fans that Axl might have a few aces up his sleeves. His track record was great so there was no reason to doubt him. The band lineup was also promising at that time. Once the tour imploded and Buckethead left, interest was waning fast. I would say by 2006, it started to become anticlimactic -- the leaked demos and the Hammerstein shows were a brief uptick in interest/hype, but again, with no album -- interest started to fizzle again. I was definitely over the whole thing by the end of '06. So much had changed by then in the music world -- I felt like Nu Guns had missed their moment. 

The real intrigue probably was from '94-01, truly the lost years. The buildup to the christmas shows around New Years eve 2000 in Vegas probably would have been cool to experience on GnR forums.

On 2/26/2017 at 8:35 AM, appetite4illusions said:

2002 was an implosion year.

The tour implosion coincided with Roy Thomas Baker being fired and Tom Zutaut being fired. I'm sure the confidence was pretty eroded at the point. The confidence of the record company, the confidence of the GN'R team. The notion that Axl was ready to take it out when he had these numerous lawsuits stemming from the tour and a team of people who were dismissed who were creatively trying to steer the ship, was pretty preposterous. 

There was obviously a moment there where they thought they had momentum, lost it, spectacularly, and ran for cover. When they regrouped, for whatever reason Caram Costanzo was now tinkering with the album and the rest they say, is history. 

Yeah -- nailed it. I think the commercial prospects for GnR were never better than from '99-'02. They just blew it by missing that window. There was a brief interest in retro bands around that time and GnR had been gone long enough to have a mystique about them. Nu-metal bands were on the way out around then as well. By 2003, the momentum was shifting. Velvet Revolver sort of caught the last wave before rock music began to wane as a viable genre.

2 hours ago, themadcaplaughs said:

I do not claim to be a GN'R "insider," but I've talked to many people in the Buckethead camp (I have loved Buckethead since the mid 1990s and been to dozens of shows) and once had the pleasure of speaking with an A&R guy for Geffen who worked with GN'R from 1992-2000 (and still stays in touch with many people involved in the band). I do not know many specifics, but have pieced at least this together:

-2002: The label was never thrilled with the album, but as other mentioned, there was hype about Axl returning to the public and a sense still existed that Axl could at least pull off something interesting with a newer GN'R lineup. Furthermore, this was still the era of "blockbuster" albums from big names selling based purely on hype. Even if the label did not like it, they figured if they got it out in 2002, it would sell on the brand alone and they could wash their hands of the whole thing. Honestly, they would have released just about anything Axl turned in. As a matter of fact, I have been told that this rumor about an "early" version of the album being turned down is simply untrue. The label may have given some optional feedback, but if Axl had turned it down, they would have released it as is. Apparently, when the 2002 North America got aborted, the album really was 85-90% done. Unfortunately, when Clear Channel pulled the plug, Axl went completely incommunicado and Buckethead left a few months later. 

 

-2006: This time, it really was much more of the label's fault. By 2006, it was crystal clear that Duff and Slash would be open to rejoining GN'R, and the label thought they could hold out until it happened. Hell, if what Scott Weiland said was true, some preliminary talks may have even begun. From what I've been told, although Axl missed the original March 6, 2007 deadline, he had the album turned into the label by mid-2007. The problem was, quite simply, the label did not know what the hell to do with it. At that point, revenue from recorded music had started declining in a major way, and there seemed to be no reasonable way to release the album. As previous posted mentioned, we had a perfect storm of a powerful manager, leaks which received a lot of attention, the popularity of Guitar hero and Rockband, and the beginning of record being exclusive to a certain store. 

Great post -- thanks for sharing.

Losing Bucket was a body blow for this band. They never recovered. He was the only guy in that band who could help make up for the loss of Slash and with him leaving, the credibility of the band was gone.

What a shame that Axl didn't reunite the band in 2006. They could have had one last stab at mainstream relevance. The guys were still young enough to reclaim their crown.

Edited by RONIN
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2 hours ago, RONIN said:

Agreed. He needs to be forced to release stuff. Put him on a schedule, like a soundtrack release. He was forced to release Oh my God as a demo to make the deadline for End of Days.

Hopeless. That won't work. You don't force such things on someone like Axl. I believe to him it's like his thing to take every Guns album very seriously. His art.

Only way to make him work quickly is on other people's music, someone like Angus where Axl must be just a part of the process. Besides, the way he seems to put music together, albums, is a process I think you can't rush or it won't be what the artist intended it to be.

And no one forced Axl to release Oh My God. Since it does sound like a demo, and had a lot of potential, perhaps it would have been better if it was worked on some more, got updated to fit in Chinese, and released in 2008 as a part of the album.

It's like Slash saying My World was perfect or Robin convincing Axl to release This I Love. Iovine probably convinced Axl Oh My God was good enough to be released as a soundtrack and my guess is at the time Axl was excited about writing the song. A good way back then to test the waters too, see if people liked the song and Iovine maybe just wanted Axl to put something out, the label thinking the release was close and it was party time.

Edited by Rovim
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I've still never been one who thought the record company was behind the delay, at the end of the day if a record company had a record in hand to release they would do it.

 

Ive always thought axl was the main reason for the delays which is why you saw so many members leave around the late 90s to mid 2000s, they knew the album was done but wasn't being given to the record company to release and they (former members) got frustrated because they gave their maximum effort and axl basically said "not good enough" by refusing to release it so, they (former members) said screw it and left, and formed a perfect circle and various other solo/group projects.

 

I can't say what axl heard that didn't meet his standards, as all we have truly heard outside of the actual album are low quality leaks. So maybe he held it back for good reason, I personally loved CD. 

 

But, at the end of the day axl is the guy driving the gnr truck which is why we have no idea what happens behind the scenes other than rumors. It would be so interesting to hear what happened from 1994 to 2015, the closets thing is probably "Chinese whispers"

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26 minutes ago, cqleonardo said:

two question that are on and off topic....

The MSL leaks are the 2006 leaks? 

The Antiquiet.com leaks are the songs before Bumble and Frank played on them?

MSL leaks were in 2007, first time we heard full studio versions of CD, Madagascar and The Blues. MSL also may or may not have secured the "Chicken Dinner" leak, which turned out to be Shacklers. The 2006 leaks were posted on this site by @wes and @saint_seiya and basically rejuvenated the restless fan base and was the anchor behind those early MSG shows/Euro tour.

I can't recall whether the Antiquiet leaks were the songs before Ron and Frank contributed but I do remember Axl or the record company actually sending the FBI after Skwerl for that. The album was so close to actual release at that point.

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31 minutes ago, GNR 1991 said:

MSL leaks were in 2007, first time we heard full studio versions of CD, Madagascar and The Blues. MSL also may or may not have secured the "Chicken Dinner" leak, which turned out to be Shacklers. The 2006 leaks were posted on this site by @wes and @saint_seiya and basically rejuvenated the restless fan base and was the anchor behind those early MSG shows/Euro tour.

I can't recall whether the Antiquiet leaks were the songs before Ron and Frank contributed but I do remember Axl or the record company actually sending the FBI after Skwerl for that. The album was so close to actual release at that point.

west and saint seiya leaked Chinese and Mad, right?

I remember the day Chicken Dinner was leaked, I was so hyped by a new song but at first I hated 

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On 2/27/2017 at 9:57 AM, Modano09 said:

I could see Axl not wanting to go head to head with VR. Spending 6 or 7 years working on his album only to have it outperformed by Slash/Duff's new band could have driven him over the edge.

But that's essentially what happened in a round about way with VR beating Axl to the punch and releasing a (let's be honest here) mediocre hard rock album. Contraband just seemed to connect with the mainstream audience who were starved for good rock -- even The Darkness were popular around that time. Axl blew it really. Should have dropped that album in '02. The "2000 intentions" album with Sean Beaven would have done even better if you ask me if they had kept the original release date back in 2000.

16 hours ago, Rovim said:

Hopeless. That won't work. You don't force such things on someone like Axl. I believe to him it's like his thing to take every Guns album very seriously. His art.

Only way to make him work quickly is on other people's music, someone like Angus where Axl must be just a part of the process. Besides, the way he seems to put music together, albums, is a process I think you can't rush or it won't be what the artist intended it to be.

And no one forced Axl to release Oh My God. Since it does sound like a demo, and had a lot of potential, perhaps it would have been better if it was worked on some more, got updated to fit in Chinese, and released in 2008 as a part of the album.

It's like Slash saying My World was perfect or Robin convincing Axl to release This I Love. Iovine probably convinced Axl Oh My God was good enough to be released as a soundtrack and my guess is at the time Axl was excited about writing the song. A good way back then to test the waters too, see if people liked the song and Iovine maybe just wanted Axl to put something out, the label thinking the release was close and it was party time.

Yeah -- it's wishful thinking, but something compelled him to drop that demo out there to test the water. Axl has said in those Dexter chats that his hand was forced and that Oh My God was unfinished and rushed to release. Might be his way of saving face since that song wasn't well received by the rock press at the time. I'm one of the few here who consider Oh My God to be a great track (in need of polishing, no doubt) - the response to that song probably was a huge influence on what ended up happening to those Sean Beavan songs. A shame. I bet those songs are stronger in their original form than what ended up on Chinese Democracy. And that's the thing (and where we probably disagree) -- more time is not necessarily making the music better. I think The Blues and Catcher actually turned out worse than their demo versions. Potential classics that were just butchered with overproduction and unnecessary re-recording. He just overthinks everything to the point of it becoming a detriment to the quality of his work. 

With regards to This I Love, who knows how many permutations that song probably went through. Maybe in its original form back in the mid 90's, with Slash and Izzy guiding it, TIL could have been a great ballad. 

There's so many what if's with this period in time, but truthfully it always seemed to me that Axl was in a creative rut -- like the man's head just wasn't in the game anymore...and it shows in the lyrics of Chinese Democracy, which in large part are a major step down from what he wrote on UYI. 

I think had the original band released that '96 record, it would have sidestepped a lot of this creative exhaustion - I think they still had one more great record in them. I don't think Axl ever trusted his band members enough afterwards or allowed them to truly collaborate with him like the way he did with Slash, Duff and Izzy. That lack of cohesiveness and chemistry shows in Chinese Democracy. 

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8 hours ago, lukepowell1988 said:

I feel a lot of the problem was simply Axl being scared of the album being rejected by fans the issue is the album suffered from death by its own hype.

 

 

I always got this impression as well.  Especially when you take into account how many versions these songs went through even just on the leaks we have alone - tons and tons of tiny tinkering that in a lot of cases barely really made a difference and was just a bit overdone.  

I am sure the record label didn't help either if they were trying to strong arm Axl into getting Slash back in the band, I bet he was feeling a ton of pressure between the hype and the record label bullshit.  Not to mention many people are on record discussing Axl's neurotic perfectionism which could have made all of that way worse lol

Not that I was there so this is just based on various interviews and whatnot, but Chinese Democracy in my opinion should have sounded more laid back and came out a lot earlier.  Those 1999 demos completely smoke the album versions IMO

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30 minutes ago, cqleonardo said:

another not so random question, Buckethead did what solos on Chinese? I know he didn't play anything on Catcher and This I Love, the last TWAT solo is his too, what else?

The second solo on Chinese (with the whammy pedal), Better (during the heavy riff), Prostitute, If The World, IRS, Sorry, and I could be wrong but I feel like its him on Scraped

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43 minutes ago, cqleonardo said:

another not so random question, Buckethead did what solos on Chinese? I know he didn't play anything on Catcher and This I Love, the last TWAT solo is his too, what else?

He did guitar solos on: Chinese Democracy, Better, Street of Dreams, If The World, There Was A Time, Scraped, Riad N' The Bedouins, Sorry, I.R.S., Madagascar and Prostitute. 

Edited by Sosso
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I was listening to 2007 Mexico show and when they closed the set with Nightrain and took a short break, the Chinese Democracy synth intro came up, and they played that as an encore.

 

It worked perfectly. But that's not what i wanted to say. I think it's kinda fukkin funny they postponed a record for like, two years or whatever, to come up with that cool synth intro to the song Chinese Democracy but in the end they won't even play it bikoz Pittman is out of the band now. Duh

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3 hours ago, whatashame said:

I was listening to 2007 Mexico show and when they closed the set with Nightrain and took a short break, the Chinese Democracy synth intro came up, and they played that as an encore.

 

It worked perfectly. But that's not what i wanted to say. I think it's kinda fukkin funny they postponed a record for like, two years or whatever, to come up with that cool synth intro to the song Chinese Democracy but in the end they won't even play it bikoz Pittman is out of the band now. Duh

Melissa could play that synth intro.

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