the 2002 and 2006 Chinese delays

[Sprite]

Neil Pitman is a legend. I appreciate his work on Chinese. The only synthesizer that can slap the bass without skipping a beat.

You could almost tell when he grabbed that towel and left his keyboard during You're Crazy at Bridge School that things were changing. He danced the dance of a keyboardist who ran out of fucks to give. Like how every drummer wants to be the frontman, Chris seized the opportunity. So much so he got a mention on Kimmel the next week by Axl. I hope things work out for him.

[ZoSoRose]

Fucking Neil Pitman

[AxlsFavoriteRose]

On 2/24/2017 at 5:12 AM, Słash said:

The only person to be blamed for the delay of Chinese Democracy is AXL ROSE. 

but can't that be just because he wanted it perfect? i mean to me it was his STATEMENT album to prove that he was just as good...no probably that he was better without Slash and company?

[Apollo]

On 2/24/2017 at 8:29 PM, Wagszilla said:

No, Mike Piazza played "IRS" in 2003 which featured Buckethead.

We didn't get the 1999 tracks until 2006 which came from an ex-engineer and was the same source we got Catcher and Jackie Chan from.

If Azoff had is way, we would've had a reunion in 2010-2011 after 2 additional new albums were released.

This, all pissed away because of touring royalties. Well that and Axl eventually smelling a rat about the reunion.

Can you imagine? 3 fuckin' CDs and Axl's voice in 2010 shape with a reunited Guns. 

The world is fucking bullshit man.  

That actually makes me tear up to think about. 

In terms of "hard rock music tragedy" - I put Randy dying as #1 and #2 being Axl's unwillingness to share his music with his fans. 

Axl threw away and wasted the prime years of his career. 

Sad. 

[Apollo]

On 2/25/2017 at 8:05 AM, whatashame said:

not to forget

- according to Merck Mercuraidis, ex manager, Axl rarely ever felt inspired to work on the album. And he only wanted these vocals on the album that were recorded during the days when he was inspired and driven. Kinda like - Axl never went to work, only waited to be possessed. Or whatever, however you wanna put it. Which was 2-3 days of work every couple of months.

- in 2002 and 2006 they said the albums were all done only to cheat promoters to even consider booking tours for GNR. In fact, the album was nowhere near done and the band had to tour to raise more funds to finish it (read: pay for studio on the days when Axl doesn't show up)

- when the album was done, they couldn't just release it. They had to find someone who would buy it off of the record label, which, at that time, had no more hopes of earning any money off of. They wanted to wait for anyone to sell it to in order to do some kind of damage control.

- in the end nobody wanted to buy the rights for the album from the record label, and thus relieve them from it. So they wanted for a good moment to release it. Not a good moment in sense of "when Axl feels like it", but more like that Wal Mart / Best Buy exclusive offert, combined with free-Dr-Pepper-for-everybody, the Antiquiet leaks (free publicity) and the Rockstar game.

- and what the fakk was Tommy saying when he said he and Axl are dissapointed with the album bikoz the record label basically STOLE it from Axl and released it when it was still UNFINISHED (??? dude, lay off the crack)

 

Nailed it. Nicely done. 

[Apollo]

On 3/1/2017 at 9:11 PM, themadcaplaughs said:

I do not claim to be a GN'R "insider," but I've talked to many people in the Buckethead camp (I have loved Buckethead since the mid 1990s and been to dozens of shows) and once had the pleasure of speaking with an A&R guy for Geffen who worked with GN'R from 1992-2000 (and still stays in touch with many people involved in the band). I do not know many specifics, but have pieced at least this together:

-2002: The label was never thrilled with the album, but as other mentioned, there was hype about Axl returning to the public and a sense still existed that Axl could at least pull off something interesting with a newer GN'R lineup. Furthermore, this was still the era of "blockbuster" albums from big names selling based purely on hype. Even if the label did not like it, they figured if they got it out in 2002, it would sell on the brand alone and they could wash their hands of the whole thing. Honestly, they would have released just about anything Axl turned in. As a matter of fact, I have been told that this rumor about an "early" version of the album being turned down is simply untrue. The label may have given some optional feedback, but if Axl had turned it down, they would have released it as is. Apparently, when the 2002 North America got aborted, the album really was 85-90% done. Unfortunately, when Clear Channel pulled the plug, Axl went completely incommunicado and Buckethead left a few months later. 

 

-2006: This time, it really was much more of the label's fault. By 2006, it was crystal clear that Duff and Slash would be open to rejoining GN'R, and the label thought they could hold out until it happened. Hell, if what Scott Weiland said was true, some preliminary talks may have even begun. From what I've been told, although Axl missed the original March 6, 2007 deadline, he had the album turned into the label by mid-2007. The problem was, quite simply, the label did not know what the hell to do with it. At that point, revenue from recorded music had started declining in a major way, and there seemed to be no reasonable way to release the album. As previous posted mentioned, we had a perfect storm of a powerful manager, leaks which received a lot of attention, the popularity of Guitar hero and Rockband, and the beginning of record being exclusive to a certain store. 

Great post!!!!

The next question would be - why did Axl decide to shitcan the release of Cd2 and CD3?

[wasted]

My guess is the Best Buy deal/Azzof just wanted 1 cd (and wanted Slash on CD 2) Tommy seemed to say that whoever took the material and just put out the 1 cd kind of made Axl shutdown. Axl was still saying CD II is done, there's the remix. But the mechanism to release it wasn't there. Everyone wanted a reunion. I wonder what CD II is like, whether CD is the most GNR stuff, anything extra violent or weird is on CD II. Slash and Duff seem to like some of Axl's stuff so maybe it's not that crazy. 

[Słash]

On March 3, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Wagszilla said:

 

@Gackt your solos are pretty good man 

[themadcaplaughs]

11 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

What about the 2000 album? 

 

This is what I was referring to. The label may have given Axl suggestions or constructive criticism, but if Axl had put his foot down and refused to take any of the label's advice, they still would have released the record as is. At that point, the label was so desperate to release the record and move on that they would have released anything Axl turned in. More likely, Axl took the suggestions personally and re-started the recording process. 

[Apollo]

1 hour ago, Wagszilla said:

I'm generally open-minded. I can see it going a lot of different ways.

I just find it odd they were working on artwork in 2001, that the songs didn't really change much from 2002-2006, and 2003-2004 is a big mystery. 

The investigative journalist in me wants more facts even if my opinion tips a certain way. 

 

 

Why do you think Axl changed his mind on releasing CD2 and 3?

[-W.A.R-]

On 3/1/2017 at 10:11 PM, themadcaplaughs said:

I do not claim to be a GN'R "insider," but I've talked to many people in the Buckethead camp (I have loved Buckethead since the mid 1990s and been to dozens of shows) and once had the pleasure of speaking with an A&R guy for Geffen who worked with GN'R from 1992-2000 (and still stays in touch with many people involved in the band). I do not know many specifics, but have pieced at least this together:

-2002: The label was never thrilled with the album, but as other mentioned, there was hype about Axl returning to the public and a sense still existed that Axl could at least pull off something interesting with a newer GN'R lineup. Furthermore, this was still the era of "blockbuster" albums from big names selling based purely on hype. Even if the label did not like it, they figured if they got it out in 2002, it would sell on the brand alone and they could wash their hands of the whole thing. Honestly, they would have released just about anything Axl turned in. As a matter of fact, I have been told that this rumor about an "early" version of the album being turned down is simply untrue. The label may have given some optional feedback, but if Axl had turned it down, they would have released it as is. Apparently, when the 2002 North America got aborted, the album really was 85-90% done. Unfortunately, when Clear Channel pulled the plug, Axl went completely incommunicado and Buckethead left a few months later. 

 

-2006: This time, it really was much more of the label's fault. By 2006, it was crystal clear that Duff and Slash would be open to rejoining GN'R, and the label thought they could hold out until it happened. Hell, if what Scott Weiland said was true, some preliminary talks may have even begun. From what I've been told, although Axl missed the original March 6, 2007 deadline, he had the album turned into the label by mid-2007. The problem was, quite simply, the label did not know what the hell to do with it. At that point, revenue from recorded music had started declining in a major way, and there seemed to be no reasonable way to release the album. As previous posted mentioned, we had a perfect storm of a powerful manager, leaks which received a lot of attention, the popularity of Guitar hero and Rockband, and the beginning of record being exclusive to a certain store. 

interesting

Chinese Whispers gave the impression that the label thought the album sucked and they weren't gonna put it out until they were satisfied (aka he had good hit single), but yeah it probably could have sold off the hype alone.

Edited March 7, 2017 by -W.A.R-

[-W.A.R-]

27 minutes ago, Apollo said:

Why do you think Axl changed his mind on releasing CD2 and 3?

 i don't think Axl changed his mind but rather that the label wouldn't back them/put them out. i think they pretty much wiped their hands with him after CD.

[wasted]

Rumor is Azoff fired Finck to make way for Slash. His departure seems to coincide with the Azoff Best Buy deal and his reunion idea. I doubt that's how Axl wanted to tour/promote CD or do the reunion. 

 

[wasted]

13 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

Doubtful.

More like Robin saw the writing on the wall and left a sinking ship for a creatively relevant venture.

So instead of wasting more years in litigation and album delays he hopped onstage with Trent and The Slip was released shortly thereafter.

Easy call.

I could see that..but was it sinking if Azoff nego the Best Buy deal? It didn't sink, maybe Robin saw bad situations ahead though. Axl was still pretty unpredictable back then. 

Either way Axl was paddling against the current the whole way. And some say what was he doing anyway, everyone just wants a reunion. But I guess from his pov it meant more than that. 

In hindsight maybe he was just holding his position. Throwing in the towel on the release seems too much to take, it's almost disrespectful. Axl would never recover. I don't think a destroyed and humiliated Axl doing a reunion tour with Slash in 2009 would have been as cool as we think. Axl would have no control, just begging them to save his career. Maybe that's why some industry people saw Axl going broke. They just couldnt see him playing ball after all that time. 

Azoff ripping them off, probably not even the AFD line up. So I guess they offered him this deal to keep him on board. But in the end he completed the CD mission on his terms and from that they could do a reunion clear of all that. Maybe that was the plan all along. Seems better overall. 

[wasted]

31 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

Yes.

It's a sure thing against a long shot maybe that has a track record of not happening. 

Robin officially rejoined NIN in April 2008 which was before the Antiquiet leaks in June 2008 which likely helped close/solidify the Best Buy deal.

I'm guessing it was at a stand-still and he was over it. 6 years is forever and you haven't grown up yet!

If Slash's book hadn't come out in 2007 I think it probably would've happened. I can't remember the status of their feud at that point but that probably re-invigorated it.

I'm not talking a reunion tour and I don't think Azoff was either.

I think he wanted to get Slash back in the fold to tour upon CD and eventually play CD II live. 

Axl tried to soldier on with a new guitarist (bad decision) and tried to tour on CD more (bad decision) a year after it came out (WTF!!!).

It just took a divorce, Duff's diplomacy, and Axl running GNR into the ground to finally get what should've happened in 2008. Huzzah! 

Slash in 2008 would have just been like Slash in 2016. From a business point of view Slash touring CD is better. 

But artistically for Axl it doesn't look good. That's what Axl said, it was always possible but didn't feel right. So he wanted to tour CD properly. 

And given the business stuff attached to Azoff and HOF, it worked out better for them in full control of the reunion. 

But maybe it was closer than we think. Axl came back in 09 with dreads gone, dressing a lot more rock star. Maybe Slash was an option they just weren't ready to deal with Axl keeping the name or no formal contracts. Axl seems to be on time now. Not the case on the CD tour. He was still stopping the shows in the first song. 

So they just werent ready to compromise. 

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by wasted

[wasted]

11 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

He also wanted Slash to play 3 songs on CD until Slash burned his bridge. There's easily a scenario where Slash coming back makes CD look better, i.e.: "I like these songs. They're pretty cool!"

I do agree with business stuff so he could've said get fucked to Azoff and called Slash anyway. It's not a good business move/creative move/getting music released move to do what Axl did - sue Azoff, play a string of private gigs to keep the band afloat, fire managers, etc.

Could've seen it coming for so long but Axl wanted to call the President, private eye, IRS, and FBI. 

Slash coming in instead of Ron is probably what Axl wanted. Not specifically but that kind of scenario. 

It all seems to be on principles and how it looks. Like if Slash comes back it's going to look like what he's saying about the break up is true. 

And that's the first thing Axl addressed when he talked to Slash. 

I think they just saw the bigger picture. Who gives a shit if Axl owns the name or if Slash doesn't apologize publicly. 

In 2008 I doubt the reunion would be as successful as it is now. It would be more muddled. 

If Axl wasn't Axl he'd have done the Snakepit record as Guns. Or just been on time and professional on the UYI tour but then they wouldn't have that dangerous edge on AFD. So it's hard to know.

All's well that ends...well?!

Edited March 8, 2017 by wasted

[ShadowOfTheWave]

At the end of the day all we really know is it was everyone but Axl's fault. Nothing is ever Axl's fault, you see.

[wasted]

Axl thought he was doing the right thing. 

[mr-fukaji]

On 02/03/2017 at 5:32 AM, RONIN said:

Honestly -- it was sort of interesting between 2002-2003, but quickly became irritating. I became a fan in late '02 and was on this forum back then. There was a sense from even many old fans that Axl might have a few aces up his sleeves. His track record was great so there was no reason to doubt him. The band lineup was also promising at that time. Once the tour imploded and Buckethead left, interest was waning fast. I would say by 2006, it started to become anticlimactic -- the leaked demos and the Hammerstein shows were a brief uptick in interest/hype, but again, with no album -- interest started to fizzle again. I was definitely over the whole thing by the end of '06. So much had changed by then in the music world -- I felt like Nu Guns had missed their moment. 

Losing Bucket was a body blow for this band. They never recovered. He was the only guy in that band who could help make up for the loss of Slash and with him leaving, the credibility of the band was gone.

 

Agreed with Ronin on this. At the time it was absolute agony waiting for any kind of news once the tour folded, and it was that which led me to the forum. The IRS discovery was via this forum, and I forget his or her username, but that was about as exciting as it got until Axl turned up at the Papa Roach release party at the start of 2006. The horseshit with Rio 2004 and all the nonsense about who was in or out, people emailing Robin Finck, people updating every time the official website changed even slightly, people emailing Sanctuary over and over again, people going to Tommy's solo tour to ask what was going on - madness.

2002 should have been that line up's year. Love it or hate it, and I can understand both sides, but that line up was such a bizarre and unique one and especially for it to be Guns N' Roses in name. That they basically lasted two years with fuck all to show for it is absolutely painful as a fan and the time I put into hoping they could get it back together is time I wish I had back. They never recovered from Buckethead bailing and as great as the 2006 and 2010 shows were it just didn't feel like any of it lived up to what they could have achieved. or should have. That 2002 line up is just one of those bands i'll always love for better or worse and i'll still throw on the MSG, Boston or Pukkelpop shows to remind myself. We should have had Axl with his head straight and about three albums worth of material by now, but instead we got one weird patchwork that apparently wasn't even finished and the band themselves didn't promote.

[RichardNixon]

12 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

I don't think he did. 

I think he made some very stupid decisions that cost him the opportunity to do so.

Let's look at the chain of events:

1. Azoff brokers an amazing deal with Best Buy (2007-2008)
2. Robin Finck quits GN'R (April 2008)
3. CD gets released; bashed by critics (November 2008)
4. "Same bat time, same bat channel" (December 2008)
5. Chinese Democracy DLC in Rock Band (April 2009)
6. Azoff / Axl split (~May 2009)

I think Axl was up shit's creek when Robin quit. The two lead guitarists who made CD (and CD2/CD3) were gone and his only option was to re-unite with Slash if he wanted CD let alone CD2 to get attention. 

Azoff was making things happen for him (Rock Band, CD re-release in the works, media coverage) and probably laid the cards on the table. He reportedly wanted a bigger cut of touring profits (a good business move by him, especially if Slash were back) and Axl said get fucked. Who else is going to negotiate with the record company and/or media outlets? Doc McGee? Team Brazil? Good luck with that. So instead of more music, lawsuits happened, DJ Ashba happened, 5-6 years of touring a long outdated record happened. 

This is all ancient history anyway. We're in 2017 and GN'R is making money hand over fist. No excuses now. 

Chinese Democracy was not "bashed by critics," it received a 4/5 star review from Rolling Stone and the All Music Guide, two of the most prestigious cites/magazines for reviews. But you can cite Krang or whatwhatever.

[wasted]

Best Buy wasn't an amazing deal either. In fact they may have sold more with just a regular release being seen in more shops than BB. 

Letting Best buy do promo also wasn't great. Just putting out the Better video might have helped. BB deal just let the label off the hook and gave Azoff the leeway to try to set up a reunion instead of doing promo. And then when he didnt get the reunion he fails to book a tour. 

With label support, Finck and a Better video, CD could've been okay. 

[RichardNixon]

Just now, wasted said:

Best Buy wasn't an amazing deal either. In fact they may have sold more with just a regular release being seen in more shops than BB. 

Letting Best buy do promo also wasn't great. Just putting out the Better video might have helped. BB deal just let the label off the hook and gave Azoff the leeway to try to set up a reunion instead of doing promo. And then when he didnt get the reunion he fails to book a tour. 

With label support, Finck and a Better video, CD could've been okay. 

How many albums were Springsteen, Aerosmith, Foo Fighters or Pearl Jam selling in 2008? Those acts were only getting Gold albums at that point too. 600k stateside and 2-3 million WW in 2008, from an established  rock act is respectable.

[wasted]

4 minutes ago, RichardNixon said:

How many albums were Springsteen, Aerosmith, Foo Fighters or Pearl Jam selling in 2008? Those acts were only getting Gold albums at that point too. 600k stateside and 2-3 million WW in 2008, from an established  rock act is respectable.

I think so. But that was with the BB deal in the US. It could have been more. Just saying BB wasn't that great. It was safe a solid 1.3 mil shipped. I think DC or U2 more like 5 mil? 

But I guess there was no stable line up, Axl had missed the 2004 deadline. So I can see why they sold CD off to break even. 

[Silent Jay]

20 minutes ago, RichardNixon said:

How many albums were Springsteen, Aerosmith, Foo Fighters or Pearl Jam selling in 2008? Those acts were only getting Gold albums at that point too. 600k stateside and 2-3 million WW in 2008, from an established  rock act is respectable.

Chinese Democracy was the most anticipated record of all time.

Best Buy or not, Black Ice and Death Magnetic would have still kicked Chinese ass. The only thing I can give credit for, is that it was against Kanye West's 808s & Heartbreak that sold 2M copies in the US, and a strong third week for Taylor Swift's Fearless (7M copies US). That's why GnR only peaked at #3.

I mean literally chinese got raped, even Nickelback that released Dark Horse one week before still managed to sell more than 3M copies in the US and 5M worldwide.

[Silent Jay]

That record must have been was a total clusterfuck for the mainstream fans, I can't even imagine. Is that Slash in there? What is a Bumblefoot and a Buckethead? Chinese was too straight, Better was too weird and Street Of Dreams wasn't November Rain. No easy goin' hooks/no choruses.

Why should I bother listening to the rest of the album then? There are songs named Scraped, Riad N' The Bedouins and Shackler's Revenge. This might be about Shaquille O' Neal I don't know.

At least there was a song called Prostitute.