the 2002 and 2006 Chinese delays

[Sprite]

At the end of the day I can only go with what I got. You cite numbers as if that adds credibility, and I say Shania Twain sold more records in the 90s than Metallica. We all have our faults.

The 2002 band was so odd it worked. Almost like the only way for you to do it is to do it well and leave something witchy. So they did. In spite of the criticism of that band and the oddity of it, I don't think it's nearly as successful had Axl gotten a bunch of Dave Mustaine looking fellows and just re released remakes of past styles.  He wanted a band.

So we move into the future on the spaceship known as 2002 GNR. Sure there are the doubters. It's a UFO. But looking at the product they delivered purely from an auditory perspective they hit the nail on the head. It was the next evolution of GNR. It's part of the reason this regrouping is even happening. It all had to be worked out to get here.

I think if you look and compare honestly, CD stands up quite well to UYI in terms of quality. CD is a fine wine. It's aging well because it never had an age to begin with. It was a Led Zeppelin influenced 80s band recording their post grunge, alternative rock, 90's follow up, not released till a black guy was president in 2008. Its always right now because it's brand new. 

But I can wait some more for the follow up. As Lennon said I'm just sitting here doing time anyway so what's the difference. Now they've abuducted Slash and Duff and that chick and dropped a few along the way. Its Axl's band like it not. I think the next album will still be the next evolution from CD. They need one more artistic statement till helter skelter. This tour has been the buffer needed to get to the next evolution where they can have one more statement with at least the 3 of them. When they are 60 they can go back to the top of the slide.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Sprite

[-W.A.R-]

nobody was checking for a GNR (read: Axl Rose solo) album in 2008. Im betting the label got on their knees and thanked the lord for the Best Buy deal as it allowed them to wipe their hands with the whole thing and get their money back. really it was a sweetheart deal as i don't believe it would have been anymore successful. most ppl that wanted new GNR likely got their craving satisfied with Contraband, which was more in line with what ppl wanted from a modern GNR album than CD anyway.

Edited March 9, 2017 by -W.A.R-

[wasted]

The BB deal allowed the label not to do their job. No videos, no singles to radio. That kind of thing, not for the sales, for the place in the sun. Plus you spin wheel and see if it sells. Once they got on tour it might have taken off. But they just decided to break even and try to get Slash back. Hopefully they promote the next record with Slash like a GNR album. 

[Sunset Gardner]

i think the delays are obvious, axl sabotaged his life and tried to recreate who and what gnr was.  it didn't work.  he hired musicians to come in and write with and for him and he learned the hard way that the magic  between the five real members of gnr is impossible to come by, you don't hire it, you don't curate it, it just somehow happens, it's lightening in a bottle.  axl was working against himself for years and it shows in the record.  the record is cold, there is no spirit, just layers upon layers of a man unable to admit how much he needed his band mates.  

the other thing was VR beat him to the punch, they came first and at the right time, their sound was right for the moment, where as CD sounded so out of touch.   i think VR's success threaded axl, to see they didn't need him the way he needed them.  

CD is a axl solo record that he wasted peak years making just to spite his real bandmates.  

with that said it's good they're back together, i could see fortus becoming a real member down the road if he writes with the band on a new record, he's got a nice ron wood vibe.  but if he doesn't write and record he will always just be an axl employee.  

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Sunset Gardner

[RONIN]

12 hours ago, Silent Jay said:

That record must have been was a total clusterfuck for the mainstream fans, I can't even imagine. Is that Slash in there? What is a Bumblefoot and a Buckethead? Chinese was too straight, Better was too weird and Street Of Dreams wasn't November Rain. No easy goin' hooks/no choruses.

Why should I bother listening to the rest of the album then? There are songs named Scraped, Riad N' The Bedouins and Shackler's Revenge. This might be about Shaquille O' Neal I don't know.

At least there was a song called Prostitute.

I'm sure that was probably a factor, but only to those who actually cared enough to pick this up aka the diehards.

GnR's fanbase has been drastically diminished due to absolute neglect from Axl and his handlers. He did nothing to keep or win back his fans and they deserted him.

Nobody cared about GnR or this album by 2008. Rock was passe by then and GnR was considered an oldies band. I was in college during the latter part of the CD saga and I remember friends of mine being completely apathetic to even hearing the music for free (offered to rip them the album). Same friends of mine who were interested in the band back in 2002. They missed their moment. Whatever momentum, mystique, intrigue, etc that GnR and Axl had was long gone by 2008. CD imho would have bombed post 2005. I think in it's current incarnation, it would have even tanked in 2004 had it gone head to head with Contraband which did a better job of appealing to the youth of the time.

And, as you mentioned, the album, like UYI, was a hodgepodge of songs -- except it didn't have the guiding hands of Izzy, Duff and Slash to reign in Axl's self indulgence. 

I think the only way this album would have been a success is if Axl released his industrial rock album in 2000 or 2001. He blew it.

On 3/7/2017 at 9:20 AM, Wagszilla said:

I don't think he did. 

I think he made some very stupid decisions that cost him the opportunity to do so.

Let's look at the chain of events:

1. Azoff brokers an amazing deal with Best Buy (2007-2008)
2. Robin Finck quits GN'R (April 2008)
3. CD gets released; bashed by critics (November 2008)
4. "Same bat time, same bat channel" (December 2008)
5. Chinese Democracy DLC in Rock Band (April 2009)
6. Azoff / Axl split (~May 2009)

I think Axl was up shit's creek when Robin quit. The two lead guitarists who made CD (and CD2/CD3) were gone and his only option was to re-unite with Slash if he wanted CD let alone CD2 to get attention. 

Azoff was making things happen for him (Rock Band, CD re-release in the works, media coverage) and probably laid the cards on the table. He reportedly wanted a bigger cut of touring profits (a good business move by him, especially if Slash were back) and Axl said get fucked. Who else is going to negotiate with the record company and/or media outlets? Doc McGee? Team Brazil? Good luck with that. So instead of more music, lawsuits happened, DJ Ashba happened, 5-6 years of touring a long outdated record happened. 

This is all ancient history anyway. We're in 2017 and GN'R is making money hand over fist. No excuses now. 

Nailed it. Isn't it amazing how many great producers and managers Axl went through? People who actually tried to help this band and make them relevant again. Azoff must be an amazing talent to be able to recoup the record company's investment in full with the Best Buy deal. How he managed to do that boggles the mind. But you can't turn around the Titanic.

Axl seems to love enablers which is why instead of capable guidance from Merck or Azoff, he chose to destroy his band with the help of Doug Goldstein and Beta. 

And the tragic waste of Buckethead -- unforgivable really imho. He's way too much of a talent to even be working with the likes of Axl. For the redhead to squander the opportunity of working with Bucket is just pathetic really. 

And look at the massive downgrades the band lineups suffered through the years. I guess putting Tobias into the lineup was proof early on how little Axl cared about actually bringing in the right people for the job. I cringed back in the day when I read that Bumblefoot and Ferrer were added to the album -- christ, what a bad decision. He cut his nose to spite his face with Chinese Democracy. 

 

10 hours ago, -W.A.R- said:

nobody was checking for a GNR (read: Axl Rose solo) album in 2008. Im betting the label got on their knees and thanked the lord for the Best Buy deal as it allowed them to wipe their hands with the whole thing and get their money back. really it was a sweetheart deal as i don't believe it would have been anymore successful. most ppl that wanted new GNR likely got their craving satisfied with Contraband, which was more in line with what ppl wanted from a modern GNR album than CD anyway.

Exactly. Azoff pulled off a miracle. By 2008, nearly everyone knew Axl's album was going to be an epic flop. Best Buy probably sacked the executives who made that deal with Azoff.

[moreblack]

On 2/25/2017 at 2:42 PM, Wagszilla said:

That said, Guns has always operated off a "when we feel like it, we'll record" philosophy. 

Seems it's more when Axl feels like it, everybody else is usually ready to go whenever.

[Modano09]

Was Slash re-joining in 2008 a possibility? Like were either Axl or Slash willing at that point? 

[Powerage5]

1 minute ago, Modano09 said:

Was Slash re-joining in 2008 a possibility? Like were either Axl or Slash willing at that point? 

Judging by the Axl chats on the forums in December 2008, I'd say no. Rarely mentioned Slash at all, and when he did the answers were pretty cold.

[Sosso]

On 8.3.2017 at 2:02 AM, Wagszilla said:

Doubtful.

More like Robin saw the writing on the wall and left a sinking ship for a creatively relevant venture.

So instead of wasting more years in litigation and album delays he hopped onstage with Trent and The Slip was released shortly thereafter.

Easy call.

He had more creative input on CD than The Slip and any other NIN album

Edited March 9, 2017 by Sosso

[ZoSoRose]

On 2/24/2017 at 6:48 PM, tkarmy said:

I think Axl went a bit nuts after the implosion of the 2002 tour and shut off his phone for months at a time. The Chinese whispers article is full of interesting info.

I think the reason Axl appears much more happy and content in life is because he got some meds sorted out to combat his volatile emotions.... I also think that's why he put on so much weight. Most anti-depressants cause weight gain.

 

But I agree it should have come out in 2001 or 2002 it would have sold much better. The worst thing was that they had the raw tracks and then Roy Thomas Baker or whatever his name is made them re-record everything. The stupidest thing was making Brain re-record Josh's tracks beat for beat. Giant waste of time and money. Chinese would have sold way way more if it had come out in 2002.

 

Just glad Axl seems in a good place but I think getting back with Slash is the worst thing that could happen if we want new music. As much as I love seeing them together its clearly a cash grab. Tickets are waaaaaaaay too much and I doubt that Axl and Slash (aside from being on stage) spent more than a total of 10 hours in the same room, let alone creating new music.

 

Axl's kinda bat shit but I can't help but love him.

Super late replying to this, but I liked your comment and just saw it.

I definitely he's on meds now or something. Yeah, there's the weight gain but he also seems way more subdued and relaxed from the little bit we see of him (the occasional interview), we also haven't gotten a single rant on stage since 2010, and he talks to the crowd WAY less than he used to. Hey, that's ok, I think its better if he is on medication to help him out.

I also don't think new music would ever come with the last lineup. Having Slash back helps chances imo, but I still think chances are slim

[RONIN]

34 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

It seems clear Axl was lazy/negligent but he seemed to get on with Sean Beavan.

If your house is on fire, you should probably run to the open door or listen to the guy telling you he knows the way out.

Yep, which is probably why he stuck around so long.

I'd bet he saw Buckethead leaving as him assuming his rightful place within the band.

But the red tape and snails pace were turn-offs and Azoff trying to get Slash back was probably the straw that broke the camel's back. 

I can go somewhere where I'm appreciated, where I record on albums that get released, and I can go tour. Oh, and money. Cool. I'll do that.

Do you remember what the official/alleged reason was for Beavan being booted off the project? From what I recall, "2000 intentions", the industrial rock album, was close to completion and would have made the late 2000 release date.

Was it the record company suggesting Roy Thomas Baker to touch up the record that cocked things up? This seems to be the version Tommy Stinson sells these days.

Another thing about this entire era that is often overlooked ( you may have brought this up previously) is the band's own internal politics -- Tommy Stinson and Del trying to protect their role in the band as the principal hangers-on for Axl by ousting anyone that got close to him like Bucket, Tobias, and Finck. It's interesting to ponder how Chinese Democracy would have panned out had Tommy been shitcanned first by Axl.