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Use your Illusion: Izzy Stradlin's Contributions


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The article is great. Pretty accurate! I personally love Izzy's songs, they are simple and effective, and his lyrics are bitter and real. Dust and bones is my favorite song from UYI's, just a fucking rock n' roll masterpiece. :wub: I also love You could be mine, it's so AFD... and Pretty tied up is like the most underrated song ever. Well, yes, Izzy Stradlin's contributions to those albums were pretty impressive even though they buried him in the mix and you can barely hear him. So, until time proves me wrong (and it hadn't in 26 years): Guns n' roses cannot release a decent album without Izzy Stradlin, and that's just a fact so far. 

But, oh, who cares, he's got no stage presence. :facepalm:

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Great to see just how much Izzy contributed set out like this, 

"he gave the band their swing. With him, they weren’t just a “rock” band: they were rock and roll". 

love this quote, and couldn't agree more.

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The same thing again and again...

At first, the article lists the songs written or co-written by Izzy and then lists the songs that Izzy didn't contribute, and compares them.

So, the songs co-written by Izzy are Izzy songs.

Why don't they make a list with the songs written exclusively by Izzy and then a list with the songs that Axl wrote or co-wrote? And see then which album would be more 'solid'?

 

Dust N' Bones is a great song, but Civil War, November Rain, Estranged, Locomotive and Coma beat hands down anything Izzy wrote by himself (imo).

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10 minutes ago, WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself said:

The same thing again and again...

At first, the article lists the songs written or co-written by Izzy and then lists the songs that Izzy didn't contribute, and compares them.

So, the songs co-written by Izzy are Izzy songs.

Why don't they make a list with the songs written exclusively by Izzy and then a list with the songs that Axl wrote or co-wrote? And see then which album would be more 'solid'?

 

Dust N' Bones is a great song, but Civil War, November Rain, Estranged, Locomotive and Coma beat hands down anything Izzy wrote by himself (imo).

Yeah, that's exactly what they did! What's with people just twisting everything all the time? what a sad state of affairs.

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7 minutes ago, WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself said:

Dust N' Bones is a great song, but Civil War, November Rain, Estranged, Locomotive and Coma beat hands down anything Izzy wrote by himself (imo).

Of course it's a matter of taste. I'm a fan of simple things and I get tired easily of such long pompous songs. :ph34r: November rain especially, I only like the last part, I'd take Patience any day over it as the big GnR ballad.:wub:

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2 minutes ago, Darkenchantress said:

Of course it's a matter of taste. I'm a fan of simple things and I get tired easily of such long pompous songs. :ph34r: November rain especially, I only like the last part, I'd take Patience any day over it as the big GnR ballad.:wub:

It's a matter of taste indeed and I really like most of the 'simple' songs / rockers, however the others usually carry a lot more emotions, so they are actually deeper.

Patience was co-written by Izzy and Axl, so let's leave it out of the equation. Tell me an Izzy-exclusive song that can objectively face NR or Estranged in that aspect.

Regarding the lyrics, I don't think Izzy could write a Civil War or a Locomotive. You may prefer DTJ for example, but could you seriously claim that it has better lyrics than those two?

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25 minutes ago, WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself said:

The same thing again and again...

At first, the article lists the songs written or co-written by Izzy and then lists the songs that Izzy didn't contribute, and compares them.

So, the songs co-written by Izzy are Izzy songs.

Why don't they make a list with the songs written exclusively by Izzy and then a list with the songs that Axl wrote or co-wrote? And see then which album would be more 'solid'?

 

Dust N' Bones is a great song, but Civil War, November Rain, Estranged, Locomotive and Coma beat hands down anything Izzy wrote by himself (imo).

A band is a collaborative effort. Guns N' Roses used to be like that back in the day. 

They all probably contributed in their own small way to each song, but as Izzy has mentioned in the past, he would write a song and the band would proceed to add/subtract to it. But the substratum of the song is from Izzy. He's the foundation of a lot of GnR's songs.

Use your Illusion is a tricky affair because the song crediting system became notoriously complicated. Locomotive for example was written by Slash but we have no idea if Izzy contributed to it or not -- the song was written when Slash crashed at Izzy's house in 1990 iirc. There have been rumors that a lot of tracks had contributions from Duff and Steven which were not included in the final credit listing. Izzy as well. Whether this is true or not is anyone's guess.

To come back to the point, I'm assuming an "Izzy" song is one he wrote or co-wrote. If that's the definition we're going by, then Izzy contributing a little riff or flourish to Locomotive would not give him any writing credit for that song. As far as your argument that Dust N' Bones was weaker than the other efforts, that's all fine and dandy but all those songs are again, collaborative efforts. November Rain wouldn't be half the song it is without Slash. And yet, I can't really listen to Slash's solo albums much. Meh. 

Point being, what you're saying goes both ways. An Izzy solo song isn't all that great perhaps. But neither is an Axl solo song or a Slash solo song. Time and the critical/commercial consensus has proven that point. 

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1 hour ago, soon said:

Pretty Tied Up is not a dud!  It's fantastic!  Other than that, great article.  Thanks for posting.

Yeah -- not sure what the author was thinking there. Arguably the best Izzy contribution along with YCBM and Don't Cry on Illusions.

Pretty Tied Up, Locomotive and Breakdown are the highlights for me on UYI 2.

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19 minutes ago, WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself said:

It's a matter of taste indeed and I really like most of the 'simple' songs / rockers, however the others usually carry a lot more emotions, so they are actually deeper.

Patience was co-written by Izzy and Axl, so let's leave it out of the equation. Tell me an Izzy-exclusive song that can objectively face NR or Estranged in that aspect.

Regarding the lyrics, I don't think Izzy could write a Civil War or a Locomotive. You may prefer DTJ for example, but could you seriously claim that it has better lyrics than those two?

I don't know if the lyrics are better I know that those songs make me feel more so I like them more. I find Dust and bones and Pretty tied up lyrics brilliant though, classic Stradlin.  And I didn't say Patience cause it was written by Izzy (as far as I know Izzy wrote it for Angela Nicoletti, she even has a tape with the original version he gave to her, then Axl probably added something so it's credited to both of them), it's my favorite GnR song and if it had been written by Axl alone it would still be my favorite. Whatever, I personally find November Rain lyrics pretty lame, what really makes the song more bearable for me is Slash's guitar most of the time.

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16 minutes ago, WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself said:

It's a matter of taste indeed and I really like most of the 'simple' songs / rockers, however the others usually carry a lot more emotions, so they are actually deeper.

Patience was co-written by Izzy and Axl, so let's leave it out of the equation. Tell me an Izzy-exclusive song that can objectively face NR or Estranged in that aspect.

Regarding the lyrics, I don't think Izzy could write a Civil War or a Locomotive. You may prefer DTJ for example, but could you seriously claim that it has better lyrics than those two?

And that's just like, your opinion man. I actually think his lyrics are very rock n' roll and lacking any of the heavy handed pretensions of some of Axl's stuff. Civil War's lyrics to me are a bit sophomoric and heavy handed.

We don't need to diminish one person's contributions to make the other look better. I think Izzy and Axl are overall great songwriters. Yes, I even like what Axl did with Chinese Democracy (for the most part). They both complement each other well which is what the author of the article brings attention to. They balance each other out.

Also - here's the other thing, every member brings their influence to the songs. An Izzy song, by itself, would sound like a stones song. Slash's stuff would go more in an Aerosmith or metal direction. Duff brings his punk influences to the equation. That's what Guns is. You can't remove one of these elements out and expect the final result to "sound" like Guns N' Roses.

That's why the idea of having Fortus on an album or Gilby was and is preposterous. And to make matters worse, Izzy was Axl's main songwriting partner in the band. You're missing one half of the team essentially and that's really the point of this article.

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5 minutes ago, MADDOGJONES said:

I haven't been fighting with anyone and I haven't cried in over a year. What issue do you have with talking facts? Why are you making things up? 

What opinion do I have that I am trying to get other people to embrace?

when they don't embrace this opinion what do I do to annoy them? Do I name call them names and accuse them of crying? 

Talking facts? I'm still waiting for you to come up with some proof about your comments that Izzy rejected a full time offer and then another one to do guest spots. Or some proof that Duff is making way less money than Axl and Slash. You talk out of your ass and call it facts and then accuse people of being unable to differentiate opinions from facts.

You want people to embrace your idea that the band is perfect as it is, that nothing can't be criticized (you jumped at someone for not liking Frank as a drummer!!) and that if Izzy and Steven are not involved it's their fault. YOUR OPINION.

What do you do to annoy people? Hmm, you just come up with stupid comments like this: "Yeah, right. 14 years would have blown everyone's minds. Izzy is a plant pot on stage."

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1 hour ago, MADDOGJONES said:

Yeah, right. 14 years would have blown everyone's minds. Izzy is a plant pot on stage. 

And Fortus looks like he's having a stroke/orgasm onstage. Different strokes and all that.

53 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

You again? Put it to rest, you already earned the "fan of the month" spot on Axl's wall, you can stop crying now.

The band sounded better when Izzy was a part of it, regardless of what songs they were playing.

Bingo. Moving past all the other drama, the band just sounds better with him. 

It makes you wonder what Axl was thinking when he brought in Zakk Wylde as a possible replacement. Jesus. 

Even now, GnR has two lead guitarists in the band.

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42 minutes ago, RONIN said:

A band is a collaborative effort. Guns N' Roses used to be like that back in the day. 

They all probably contributed in their own small way to each song, but as Izzy has mentioned in the past, he would write a song and the band would proceed to add/subtract to it. But the substratum of the song is from Izzy. He's the foundation of a lot of GnR's songs.

Use your Illusion is a tricky affair because the song crediting system became notoriously complicated. Locomotive for example was written by Slash but we have no idea if Izzy contributed to it or not -- the song was written when Slash crashed at Izzy's house in 1990 iirc. There have been rumors that a lot of tracks had contributions from Duff and Steven which were not included in the final credit listing. Izzy as well. Whether this is true or not is anyone's guess.

To come back to the point, I'm assuming an "Izzy" song is one he wrote or co-wrote. If that's the definition we're going by, then Izzy contributing a little riff or flourish to Locomotive would not give him any writing credit for that song. As far as your argument that Dust N' Bones was weaker than the other efforts, that's all fine and dandy but all those songs are again, collaborative efforts. November Rain wouldn't be half the song it is without Slash. And yet, I can't really listen to Slash's solo albums much. Meh. 

Point being, what you're saying goes both ways. An Izzy solo song isn't all that great perhaps. But neither is an Axl solo song or a Slash solo song. Time and the critical/commercial consensus has proven that point. 

I would say that an Izzy song is a song that Izzy wrote by himself or at least the other members' input was minimal.

The same goes with the Axl songs. All the other songs are a joint effort. Neither Izzy's nor Axl's solely.

I don't disagree that Izzy wrote the skeleton of a big portion of the GNR catalogue,

but on the other hand, one could say that the additions made by the others were very significant, since Izzy wrote rather simple stuff.

Even Slash has said that Axl always knew how to take a simple Izzy structure and convert it into a great song.

And also imo the lyrics and the melody of a song are as important as the music.

So I consider Coma and Locomotive Slash and Axl songs for example, even though they originated from Slash.

The solo is also very important as you said, but that goes for the Izzy songs as well. For example, DTJ is an Izzy-Slash song for me. I don't go by the credits.

 

Izzy had one of the most basic parts in the songwriting, but even without him they wrote great songs.

Axl was a better lyricist and wrote far more musically versatile and deeper songs.

 

We aren't talking about Axl or Slash or Duff solo albums, since they are together the 3 of them now.

I think that they were (are?) fully capable of making a great album without Izzy, considering all the non-Izzy songs on the Illusions.

Edited by WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself
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2 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Talking facts? I'm still waiting for you to come up with some proof about your comments that Izzy rejected a full time offer and then another one to do guest spots. Or some proof that Duff is making way less money than Axl and Slash. You talk out of your ass and call it facts and then accuse people of being unable to differentiate opinions from facts.

You want people to embrace your idea that the band is perfect as it is, that nothing can't be criticized (you jumped at someone for not liking Frank as a drummer!!) and that if Izzy and Steven are not involved it's their fault. YOUR OPINION.

What do you do to annoy people? Hmm, you just come up with stupid comments like this: "Yeah, right. 14 years would have blown everyone's minds. Izzy is a plant pot on stage."

I never stated duff is making "way less money". Not sure why you have to change what i wrote? If you are going to argue against something I said at least get what I said right. I stated that he was not making an equal amount to Slash and Axl. The partnership agreement is in the public domain, it has been for maybe 10 years now, it was released as part of a law suit. Go and find it and read it or don't go and find it and don't read it. I don't care what you do. But I'm talking out of my ass because you don't know something? Right? You are not educated on a certain matter so anyone who states something you don't know is full of shit? Mmmm... nice logic.

i don't want people to embrace the band as being perfect as it is. Again, never said that, not ever. If you don't like the band as it is, great, I don't give a fuck about it. Criticize what you want, just don't make things up and slander people because you aren't getting things your way, the treatment of Axl, Slash and duff lately is ridiculous.

oh sorry, mate, did that statement annoy you? Am i not allowed to critique something? Pot meet kettle.

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11 minutes ago, MADDOGJONES said:

I never stated duff is making "way less money". Not sure why you have to change what i wrote? If you are going to argue against something I said at least get what I said right. I stated that he was not making an equal amount to Slash and Axl. The partnership agreement is in the public domain, it has been for maybe 10 years now, it was released as part of a law suit. Go and find it and read it or don't go and find it and don't read it. I don't care what you do. But I'm talking out of my ass because you don't know something? Right? You are not educated on a certain matter so anyone who states something you don't know is full of shit? Mmmm... nice logic.

i don't want people to embrace the band as being perfect as it is. Again, never said that, not ever. If you don't like the band as it is, great, I don't give a fuck about it. Criticize what you want, just don't make things up and slander people because you aren't getting things your way, the treatment of Axl, Slash and duff lately is ridiculous.

oh sorry, mate, did that statement annoy you? Am i not allowed to critique something? Pot meet kettle.

So you just assume they're splitting the money according to the old partnership agreement based on...? Yeah, just guessing.

The treatment of Axl, Slash and Duff lately is ridiculous? You must live in an alternative world. Criticizing something they've done is not the same as hating them. I don't like how they handled things with Steven at all (and you won't change that) but I still love them as much as it's actually possible. If you even doubt for a second how much they mean to me, then you're just guessing and talking out of your ass once again.

No, that statement in particular didn't annoy me at all. I do find it annoying that all you do is fighting everyone. I'm still waiting to see a positive comment from you about something.

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