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Use your Illusion: Izzy Stradlin's Contributions


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14 hours ago, soon said:

Pretty Tied Up is not a dud!  It's fantastic!  Other than that, great article.  Thanks for posting.

I was going to say! If Izzy's only contribution to UYI was Pretty Tied Up, I'd still love his contribution!

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Izzy brought an element to the songwriting process that cannot be summed up in a simple or tidy fashion.

A groove, a spark, a swing, a feel.  

Magic, perhaps.

But its fairly plain to see that the songwriting after he left was never the same.

And neither was the success.

 

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I'm always amazed at how people speculate without really knowing much about it. Dust N Bones is considered an Izzy song because he sings lead vocal on it, but who is even to say that he wrote the lyrics? Isn't there a demo out there with Duff singing it? And Duff's also credited the same way Izzy and Slash are for that song. I'm not saying Duff wrote the lyrics, I'm saying we can't know who did. (although the line ''sometimes these women are so easy'' is basically what the whole song "It's so Easy" is about which Duff wrote) Same goes for all the other songs Izzy is co-credited for. Maybe he did have the biggest hand in those songs, and maybe only a few of them. We simply don't know.

Edited by EvanG
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This was one of the best articles written to showcase Izzy's unsung hero talents. In the last year or so it's become apparent that izzy's true force and songwriting prowess is what made GNR as big as it is. Axl will surely smell the roses soon and find a way to get him back. Their current set list is very tired. Could you imagine if they included 14 years, Pretty Tied up and Dust N Bones + think about you to the mix. Jesus, it would be off the charts HUGE... 

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13 hours ago, RONIN said:

And that's just like, your opinion man. I actually think his lyrics are very rock n' roll and lacking any of the heavy handed pretensions of some of Axl's stuff. Civil War's lyrics to me are a bit sophomoric and heavy handed.

We don't need to diminish one person's contributions to make the other look better. I think Izzy and Axl are overall great songwriters. Yes, I even like what Axl did with Chinese Democracy (for the most part). They both complement each other well which is what the author of the article brings attention to. They balance each other out.

Also - here's the other thing, every member brings their influence to the songs. An Izzy song, by itself, would sound like a stones song. Slash's stuff would go more in an Aerosmith or metal direction. Duff brings his punk influences to the equation. That's what Guns is. You can't remove one of these elements out and expect the final result to "sound" like Guns N' Roses.

That's why the idea of having Fortus on an album or Gilby was and is preposterous. And to make matters worse, Izzy was Axl's main songwriting partner in the band. You're missing one half of the team essentially and that's really the point of this article.

So, Civil War has sophomoric lyrics but Pretty Tied Up (which I listen to all the time btw) is a masterpiece with cohesive lyrics.

Anyway, of course Izzy was a vital part in Guns and is (was) a super songwriter. I love most of his songs.

My point was that the other 3 are fully capable of writing great songs as well.

I don't need to wait to see what they are able to to do without Izzy.

I've seen it on the UYIs, so no, it's not a fact that they cannot release a decent album without Izzy as @Darkenchantress said.

And it would be amazing if they could make a new album with songs like Coma, Locomotive and the others.

After all, I became a fan after hearing Estranged... the second that the Slash's first solo kicked in I was a fan.

 

(It would be even more amazing if they had Izzy with them of course. I didn't say anything about Fortus or Gilby. They can't replace Izzy in the songwriting part.)

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1 minute ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

This was one of the best articles written to showcase Izzy's unsung hero talents. In the last year or so it's become apparent that izzy's true force and songwriting prowess is what made GNR as big as it is. Axl will surely smell the roses soon and find a way to get him back. Their current set list is very tired. Could you imagine if they included 14 years, Pretty Tied up and Dust N Bones + think about you to the mix. Jesus, it would be off the charts HUGE... 

What made them as big as they were is a combination of a lot of different things... not just Izzy's songwriting talent.

I'm not downplaying Izzy's part in GnR, everyone knows he was really important, but I'm tired of people thinking it was all about him. That's just stupid.

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20 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I'm always amazed at how people speculate without really knowing much about it. Dust N Bones is considered an Izzy song because he sings lead vocal on it, but who is even to say that he wrote the lyrics? Isn't there a demo out there with Duff singing it? And Duff's also credited the same way Izzy and Slash are for that song. I'm not saying Duff wrote the lyrics, I'm saying we can't know who did. (although the line ''sometimes these women are so easy'' is basically what the whole song "It's so Easy" is about which Duff wrote) Same goes for all the other songs Izzy is co-credited for. Maybe he did have the biggest hand in those songs, and maybe only a few of them. We simply don't know.

I agree that it's not possible for us to know everything about who wrote what and which part, but as far as Dust N' Bones goes, Axl had said that the lyrics were Izzy's:

I mean, before the first album, I think Izzy had written one song in his entire life, ya know? But they’re coming now... And Izzy has this, like, very wry sense of humour, man. He’s got this song about...(half-singing the lyrics) : « She lost her mind today, got splattered out on the highway, I say that’s OK... » (laughs) ! It’s called ‘Dust and bones’, I think, and it’s great. The rhythm reminds me of something like ‘Cherokee people’ by Paul Revere and the Raiders, only really weird and rocked out. It’s a weird song. But then it is by Izzy, what can I tell you?

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=4

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16 minutes ago, WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself said:

So, Civil War has sophomoric lyrics but Pretty Tied Up (which I listen to all the time btw) is a masterpiece with cohesive lyrics.

Anyway, of course Izzy was a vital part in Guns and is (was) a super songwriter. I love most of his songs.

My point was that the other 3 are fully capable of writing great songs as well.

I don't need to wait to see what they are able to to do without Izzy.

I've seen it on the UYIs, so no, it's not a fact that they cannot release a decent album without Izzy as @Darkenchantress said.

And it would be amazing if they could make a new album with songs like Coma, Locomotive and the others.

After all, I became a fan after hearing Estranged... the second that the Slash's first solo kicked in I was a fan.

 

(It would be even more amazing if they had Izzy with them of course. I didn't say anything about Fortus or Gilby. They can't replace Izzy in the songwriting part.)

Nop, sorry. Izzy was still in the UYI's, of course he didn't write every song but he was a part of the band that recorded the album and probably had a hand in every song anyway, so UYI's is a GnR album with Izzy. What happened after he left was a cover album and CD that is as GnR as Izzy and the Juju's or Velvet Revolver (well, actually VR was more GnR than those who released CD anyway. :lol:). So, as I said in my post "so far" they didn't prove they can make a decent album without him and believe me, I'd be happy if they proved me wrong.

And btw, Slash in his bio says that Locomotive was a song that he and Izzy started to write together. Maybe Slash's mind is messed, maybe the credits are messed too. We will never know.

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32 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I agree that it's not possible for us to know everything about who wrote what and which part, but as far as Dust N' Bones goes, Axl had said that the lyrics were Izzy's:

I mean, before the first album, I think Izzy had written one song in his entire life, ya know? But they’re coming now... And Izzy has this, like, very wry sense of humour, man. He’s got this song about...(half-singing the lyrics) : « She lost her mind today, got splattered out on the highway, I say that’s OK... » (laughs) ! It’s called ‘Dust and bones’, I think, and it’s great. The rhythm reminds me of something like ‘Cherokee people’ by Paul Revere and the Raiders, only really weird and rocked out. It’s a weird song. But then it is by Izzy, what can I tell you?

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=4

Ok, cool, still could be that they wrote the lyrics together, like with Paradise City, but maybe it's 100% coming from Izzy. 

I stick to the fact that we don't really know shit yet some people think they know exactly who did what. We don't know who came in with what, and who contributed what during rehearsal, etc. I'm sure they don't know themselves anymore. Duff has said before that he wrote way more for the UYI records than he got credited for, but you can question that too obviously. In the end... a lot of songs came together with input from most of them, so it's arrogant of us to say who was more important. (like some here try to do)

Edited by EvanG
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4 minutes ago, Darkenchantress said:

Nop, sorry. Izzy was still in the UYI's, of course he didn't write every song but he was a part of the band that recorded the album and probably had a hand in every song anyway, so UYI's is a GnR album with Izzy. What happened after he left was a cover album and CD that is as GnR as Izzy and the Juju's or Velvet Revolver (well, actually VR was more GnR than those who released CD anyway. :lol:). So, as I said in my post "so far" they didn't prove they can make a decent album without him and believe me, I'd be happy if they proved me wrong.

And btw, Slash in his bio says that Locomotive was a song that he and Izzy started to write together. Maybe Slash's mind is messed, maybe the credits are messed too. We will never know.

If you believe that Izzy helped in the creation of Coma, Estranged, Dead Horse, NR, Civil War etc as much as to be considered his songs as well,

then OK, but we'll have to accept that ALL of them had a hand in every song. So why do you call Patience an Izzy song for example?

If Patience is an Izzy song, then Civil War or NR are not. Sorry. You can't have it all. 

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2 minutes ago, WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself said:

If you believe that Izzy helped in the creation of Coma, Estranged, Dead Horse, NR, Civil War etc as much as to be considered his songs as well,

then OK, but we'll have to accept that ALL of them had a hand in every song. So why do you call Patience an Izzy song for example?

If Patience is an Izzy song, then Civil War or NR are not. Sorry. You can't have it all. 

Where did i call Patience an Izzy song? I put it as an example of a GnR ballad that I think is better than NR, I don't care who wrote it. I'd like it the same if it had been written by Axl alone (as long as it sounded the same, of course) But as I said, the same way Axl wrote SCOM for Erin, it is known Izzy wrote Patience for Angela, so is very likely he is the main songwriter of that particular song. Probably the whole band or at least, Izzy and Axl had a hand in both songs, which is only logical, but as SCOM is known as an Axl's song, the same could be said about Izzy and Patience.

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1 minute ago, Darkenchantress said:

Where did i call Patience an Izzy song? I put it as an example of a GnR ballad that I think is better than NR, I don't care who wrote it. I'd like it the same if it had been written by Axl alone (as long as it sounded the same, of course) But as I said, the same way Axl wrote SCOM for Erin, it is known Izzy wrote Patience for Angela, so is very likely he is the main songwriter of that particular song. Probably the whole band or at least, Izzy and Axl had a hand in both songs, which is only logical, but as SCOM is known as an Axl's song, the same could be said about Izzy and Patience.

Patience was an example of a song that is widely considered to be an Izzy song. I could have used PTU or DTJ instead.

My point remains: is Izzy the so called main songwriter of the band (he and Axl) or did they all had an input in everything?

Are there Izzy songs, Axl songs, Slash songs or there are all team songs?

If there are songs that we have to consider them as Izzy songs, then there are non-Izzy songs as well (I mentioned them before) and they would constitute a great album.

So the 3 can make a great album without Izzy.

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16 minutes ago, Darkenchantress said:

Where did i call Patience an Izzy song? I put it as an example of a GnR ballad that I think is better than NR, I don't care who wrote it. I'd like it the same if it had been written by Axl alone (as long as it sounded the same, of course) But as I said, the same way Axl wrote SCOM for Erin, it is known Izzy wrote Patience for Angela, so is very likely he is the main songwriter of that particular song. Probably the whole band or at least, Izzy and Axl had a hand in both songs, which is only logical, but as SCOM is known as an Axl's song, the same could be said about Izzy and Patience.

The only way SCOM is related to Axl are the lyrics and SCOM is way more than lyrics

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2 hours ago, EvanG said:

Ok, cool, still could be that they wrote the lyrics together, like with Paradise City, but maybe it's 100% coming from Izzy. 

I stick to the fact that we don't really know shit yet some people think they know exactly who did what. We don't know who came in with what, and who contributed what during rehearsal, etc. I'm sure they don't know themselves anymore. Duff has said before that he wrote way more for the UYI records than he got credited for, but you can question that too obviously. In the end... a lot of songs came together with input from most of them, so it's arrogant from us to say who was more important. (like some here try to do)

True. In some cases, they didn't know exactly even back then.

1 hour ago, Free Bird said:

The only way SCOM is related to Axl are the lyrics and SCOM is way more than lyrics

Not really. By all accounts SCOM wasn't a completed instrumental track that Axl put lyrics on. Apart from writing the lyrics and vocal melodies, Axl helped put the song together combining Slash's, Izzy's and his own ideas, and also, according to him, he gave it the southern rock feel.

 

Edited by Blackstar
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2 hours ago, EvanG said:

What made them as big as they were is a combination of a lot of different things... not just Izzy's songwriting talent.

I'm not downplaying Izzy's part in GnR, everyone knows he was really important, but I'm tired of people thinking it was all about him. That's just stupid.

Its definetly a combination HOWEVER keep IZZY out and the rest can't do it together, you sort of need him - and theres the all 5 argument but i'd say the real magic of the band starts with Izzy and Axl then slash, duff, steven, matt 

 

I would've really liked izzy and axl to have collobarated on something low key and acoustic during the wildnerness years 

Edited by double talkin jive mfkr
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1 minute ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

Its definetly a combination HOWEVER keep IZZY out and the rest can't do it together, you sort of need him - and theres the all 5 argument but i'd say the real magic of the band starts with Izzy and Axl then slash, duff, steven, matt 

Well, they have apparently written songs together without Izzy that still pretty much rock in my book. It's not that the stuff from AFD or UYI that didn't have Izzy contributing as a songwriter is considered secondary. 

The combination of the 5 of them was pretty special, because they all brought something different to the table and that combined made for a first class rock 'n roll band.

Saying the real magic starts with Izzy and Axl is something I can't really comment on because that is sorta subjective. For a lot of people GnR is Slash's signature guitar sound and riffs. For others it's mainly Axl's rawness and vocals. And for some it might be most of all the stuff Izzy brought to the band. It's silly discussing that because it's different for everyone. 

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3 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Well, they have apparently written songs together without Izzy that still pretty much rock in my book. It's not that the stuff from AFD or UYI that didn't have Izzy contributing as a songwriter is considered secondary. 

The combination of the 5 of them was pretty special, because they all brought something different to the table and that combined made for a first class rock 'n roll band.

Saying the real magic starts with Izzy and Axl is something I can't really comment on because that is sorta subjective. For a lot of people GnR is Slash's signature guitar sound and riffs. For others it's mainly Axl's rawness and vocals. And for some it might be most of all the stuff Izzy brought to the band. It's silly discussing that because it's different for everyone. 

i agree with most of what you're saying but i think as others have said many times is that the soul of GNR is indeed what izzy brought to the table and not speaking individualistically more spiritually - the rock and roll spirit of GNR can't be outdone from izzy's overall insights and contributions to the band and the uncanny chemistry he must've had with axl - the 5 together created explosiveness - but the raw spirit of the band in my opinion is izzy and axl 

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1 minute ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

i agree with most of what you're saying but i think as others have said many times is that the soul of GNR is indeed what izzy brought to the table and not speaking individualistically more spiritually - the rock and roll spirit of GNR can't be outdone from izzy's overall insights and contributions to the band and the uncanny chemistry he must've had with axl - the 5 together created explosiveness - but the raw spirit of the band in my opinion is izzy and axl 

Most people that have been saying all that shit are fanboys on the internet who have never even seen the original band live. This whole ''Izzy is larger than life'' BS has almost become a myth on these forums. Come on...

Again, I don't want to take anything away from Izzy Stradlin, the guy has written some killer songs and riffs and he was very important for this band. But don't give me that iconic hero crap, we're talking about a rock band. If you've never seen the band or knew the band in person it's even impossible talking about ''overall insights'' and ''uncanny chemistry between him and Axl'' and whatever you've been saying in your post. 

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2 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Izzy contributed a ton to UYI. Not debatable. GNR hasnt released a mega hit without him

Maybe because they haven't released any albums since their last one with Izzy. Well, ok, Chinese Democracy, but that's Axl and friends, that's not exactly the GnR we are, usually, talking about here.

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45 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

True. In some cases, they didn't know exactly even back then.

Not really. By all accounts SCOM wasn't a completed instrumental track that Axl put lyrics on. Apart from writing the lyrics and vocal melodies, Axl helped put the song together combining Slash's, Izzy's and his own ideas, and also, according to him, he gave it the southern rock feel.

 

That doesn't make it an Axl song.

Like I said before, Guns songs are a band effort.

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