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Use your Illusion: Izzy Stradlin's Contributions


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30 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, I remember this quote. This means that Slash was more or less Axl's puppet? Or maybe Izzy believed, like Alan Niven, that Axl was using psychic energy :lol:

Ha - yeah who knows, could be a combination of both really. I think in all seriousness, Slash probably said whatever needed to be said in the press to keep a brave front and stay united as a band despite the foundations crumbling. It's only in '94 and '95 that he starts going rogue and talking about the issues in the band.

There's also this :

I love the guy dearly, so I don't want to belittle his character by saying anything about him. But he just got sick and tired of dealing with everything. I think more than anything he didn't want to do the amount of work that Guns N' Roses has to do to keep it together. [...]I totally sold my soul to this thing, but Izzy wasn't that way. He didn't want to do videos or spend all those hours in the studio, and slowly but surely he started to drop out. [...] In fact, I was really happy because I could never understand what was going on with him. Like even on stage, he would just sort of stand there--and that was the only time I'd see him on the road because he traveled separately. When he finally left, it was like a relief because there had been no communication at all. [Los Angeles Times, August 1992]

And we went out on tour, and he finally quit. And the time that he was on tour, right before he quit, I was just really pissed off. Because it seemed like he'd show up and he would stand on the stage, for the alotted two and a half, three hours. And then, you know, split. I felt for that whole period of time that he was on stage, he really didn't wanna be there [Civil War Single / Making Fuckin' Boxes, March 1993]

And even before Izzy quit, he was pretty much phased out - he's even phased out of his own band [Q Magazine, March 1994].

And this gem from around that time:

It was recorded the way I'd prefer to do any Guns N' Roses record. When we did Appetite and Use Your Illusion, I had to deal with Izzy. I never liked playing with Izzy the whole time I've been in this band. It was great not having to deal with him on this record. It sounds a lot tighter, or at least a little more cool than it sounded before. I always used to get bummed out about certain songs on Appetite that Izzy didn't play right. For this record, we took off all of Izzy's tracks and Gilby played them. I wasn't there when Gilby did it, but when I got the tapes back, it was a relief. It sounded perfect. - Slash

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/gwtrial92.htm

I look at a lot of these passive aggressive things Slash said at the time to be the difficulties incurred during the Illusions tour from Izzy leaving. I imagine it was tough to lose Izzy given that it was now up to Duff and Slash to deal with Axl and they probably resented him for it on some level. I know later on he has mentioned in the press how Izzy and him are great friends and play all the time together (which indirectly led to VR). 

Edited by RONIN
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Skid Row are the support group only because Axl is a personal friend of their lead singer Sebastian Bach. Several of the Gunners can't stomach them. Even the choice of music piped through the PA before the group hits the stage is dictated by Rose. 

Rose's craving for control reached its apparent zenith a month before this tour when he called for the resignation of Alan Niven, the group's New Zealand-born manager for the past five years, accusing him, from at least one stage on tour, of excessive greed. Several of the band won't be drawn into commenting on the break-up.

Neither will Niven.

Izzy Stradlin, however, "felt really bad about it, because I'm still friends with Alan. I felt I had to choose between him and the band. He was kinda like the sixth member of the group for a while. And he really helped put us where we are now. I still think he's a great manager.  "But Axl and he finally had too much of a clash of personalities. Alan has his way of doing things which is more like a military strategy. Axl wants to do stuff his way, at his pace, in his time." 

 Into Niven's place stepped his former partner Doug Goldstein, and amiable, compact figure who dresses like an aging surfer and who was the group's road manager for the last tour.

"Dougie's done a lot of stuff in the last couple of years," Stradlin avows, before chuckling darkly. "He's the guy who now gets to go over to Axl's at six in the morning when his piano's hanging out at the window of his house. All kind of shit like that. Now we get these fuckin' calls - 'You hear what happened?' No, what now? 'Axl just smashed his $50,000 grand piano out the fuckin' picture-window of his new house.' That's nice, Dougie. You just take care of it. Call me when it's all over." 

And I'm sitting there playing acoustic guitar with Keith Richards and I'm thinking 'This is sooo cool!' 'Cos we're playing it thru' and Charlie and Bill Wyman are sitting there, listening to it. And I'm just flipping out, thinking 'God, this is sooo wild!' Finally we finished the song. They all turned to me and said: 'So where's your singer?' And I didn't have an answer! Axl was late again. Real late." 

 The two groups had already performed together on the same bill in Los Angeles two months earlier.

"It was the biggest thrill I ever had working with this band, but it was also pretty nerve-wracking, 'cos - we did four gigs in LA, right? - at six the morning of the first one, Axl called me completely hammered, and told me 'I'm quitting'. I told the other guys 'It's gonna be a long four days, fellas'. Then he went on-stage that night and announced he was quitting in front of 80,000 fuckin' people. That's typical of Axl's style, though. Here's a guy who knows how to go the whole nine yards! 
 

"How we managed to get through those gigs, I'll never know. There was so much shit down on us. Axl's mood to quit, the drug problems, the Steven problem, the whole 'One In A Million' controversy - plus I had a court date the morning after the last Stones date, at eight in the morning, for pissing in a trash can on an airplane, and I was facing six months in jail because I had a prior arrest for drug possession (later dropped). So that was a fuckin' major psycho-time." 


 Stradlin's version of what happened on that fateful flight is as follows:

"I was on this plane going to LA to work on the never-ending albums, and I was drunk in the middle of this bunch of senior citizen types. I was smoking, and the stewardess came over. I told her to fuck herself. I was drinking so much I had to take a piss. The people in the bathroom… Man, it seemed like I waited an hour. So I pissed in the trashcan instead. And one stewardess saw me, right? Next thing I know we've landed, I'm walking out and I see ten policemen, and the other passengers are pointing at me, shouting 'He's the guy!' And I remember thinking: 'Uh-oh! I think I fucked up again'." 

   "Living with that 'One In A Million' fall-out was heavy shit. I don't know if Axl learned anything from the experience - I would hope he did. Actually, Slash said the best things about that in some interview he did when he said that Axl's free expression was all well and good but he'd hate to think what would happen to any of the band if they got thrown in jail and had to explain the lyrics to the other guys doing time. 'Cos during that period I ended up in jail in Phoenix for a day. I found out… It was pretty fucked up." 

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/vox91.htm

In May manager Alan Niven got his walking papers, reportedly because Axl refused to finish the albums until Doug Goldstein, the band's road manager, unseated him.

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/circus91.htm

As for Axl, well, there might be some solo work out one day...maybe...it depends what mood he's in 


'I want to do some stuff on my own, but not for my sense of identity.' The notorious frontman declared. 'I want to do some things like the song My World on Use Your Illusion II. I want to do a project like that with myself and a computer engineer with anyone who wants to be on it - raw expression.'

Ask him to elaborate on this one-off project, and Axl mentions that he'd like to create with Nine Inch Nails Trent Razor and former Janes' Addiction and current Red Hot Chilli Peppers guitarist Dave Navarro (who if you recall, was once rumored to place Izzy Stradlin when he quit GN'R)


'Those are the two people I want to work with more than anybody else.' admitted Axl. 'I've talked with Trent about doing this industrial synth thing and if we're able to work it out, we'll do a whole project or at least one song. And I definitely want to work with Dave on something. I've always been curious to see what it would sound like to have him and Slash on at least one song.'

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/hp94.htm

According to this source, there has always been an overweening ambition behind Rose's creative madness: "Axl used to sit around and talk about world domination. From the very beginning he has always gone for the big ring." 

Unfortunately for Axl, his talk of world denomination could well be a concept better suited to the past.

Malcolm Dome, editor of Kerrang! - a former bastion of Guns mania - sees the Axl-Slash split as "total bloody suicide. Axl's new band could very easily come out and die the death. From what I can tell you, from our readers' reaction, they just don't care that much about Axl anymore."

A promoter in France notes, "In 1992 Guns played to 30,000 people on Paris, in '93 to less than half that number. If Slash were still in the band, he'd book them into a 60,000 seater." 

"In his years away from the stage, Axl Rose's thunder has been stolen by younger performers," an American promoter points out. "If the kids want a bad-ass hellion to admire, Phil Anselmo of Pantera, Jonathan Davis of Korn, and the singer from Tool do the whole 'I'm a fucked-up child and now you're going to suffer' routine. And if you want the beer-swilling drug-taking hooligan with charisma who sometimes doesn't turn up to gigs - look no further that Oasis's Liam Gallagher

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/icon97.htm

Edited by RONIN
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2 hours ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

TOTALLY! That makes perfect sense dogging on an original founder and songwriting leader would make entire sense! 

yeah that wasn't another troll comment..

Who's dogging "an original founder and songwriting leader"?

 

lol what the fuck

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not even going to quote you, but you're essentially comparing izzy with dizzy which is an idiotic argument 

 

13 hours ago, RONIN said:

Skid Row are the support group only because Axl is a personal friend of their lead singer Sebastian Bach. Several of the Gunners can't stomach them. Even the choice of music piped through the PA before the group hits the stage is dictated by Rose. 

Rose's craving for control reached its apparent zenith a month before this tour when he called for the resignation of Alan Niven, the group's New Zealand-born manager for the past five years, accusing him, from at least one stage on tour, of excessive greed. Several of the band won't be drawn into commenting on the break-up.

Neither will Niven.

Izzy Stradlin, however, "felt really bad about it, because I'm still friends with Alan. I felt I had to choose between him and the band. He was kinda like the sixth member of the group for a while. And he really helped put us where we are now. I still think he's a great manager.  "But Axl and he finally had too much of a clash of personalities. Alan has his way of doing things which is more like a military strategy. Axl wants to do stuff his way, at his pace, in his time." 

 Into Niven's place stepped his former partner Doug Goldstein, and amiable, compact figure who dresses like an aging surfer and who was the group's road manager for the last tour.

"Dougie's done a lot of stuff in the last couple of years," Stradlin avows, before chuckling darkly. "He's the guy who now gets to go over to Axl's at six in the morning when his piano's hanging out at the window of his house. All kind of shit like that. Now we get these fuckin' calls - 'You hear what happened?' No, what now? 'Axl just smashed his $50,000 grand piano out the fuckin' picture-window of his new house.' That's nice, Dougie. You just take care of it. Call me when it's all over." 

And I'm sitting there playing acoustic guitar with Keith Richards and I'm thinking 'This is sooo cool!' 'Cos we're playing it thru' and Charlie and Bill Wyman are sitting there, listening to it. And I'm just flipping out, thinking 'God, this is sooo wild!' Finally we finished the song. They all turned to me and said: 'So where's your singer?' And I didn't have an answer! Axl was late again. Real late." 

 The two groups had already performed together on the same bill in Los Angeles two months earlier.

"It was the biggest thrill I ever had working with this band, but it was also pretty nerve-wracking, 'cos - we did four gigs in LA, right? - at six the morning of the first one, Axl called me completely hammered, and told me 'I'm quitting'. I told the other guys 'It's gonna be a long four days, fellas'. Then he went on-stage that night and announced he was quitting in front of 80,000 fuckin' people. That's typical of Axl's style, though. Here's a guy who knows how to go the whole nine yards! 
 

"How we managed to get through those gigs, I'll never know. There was so much shit down on us. Axl's mood to quit, the drug problems, the Steven problem, the whole 'One In A Million' controversy - plus I had a court date the morning after the last Stones date, at eight in the morning, for pissing in a trash can on an airplane, and I was facing six months in jail because I had a prior arrest for drug possession (later dropped). So that was a fuckin' major psycho-time." 


 Stradlin's version of what happened on that fateful flight is as follows:

"I was on this plane going to LA to work on the never-ending albums, and I was drunk in the middle of this bunch of senior citizen types. I was smoking, and the stewardess came over. I told her to fuck herself. I was drinking so much I had to take a piss. The people in the bathroom… Man, it seemed like I waited an hour. So I pissed in the trashcan instead. And one stewardess saw me, right? Next thing I know we've landed, I'm walking out and I see ten policemen, and the other passengers are pointing at me, shouting 'He's the guy!' And I remember thinking: 'Uh-oh! I think I fucked up again'." 

   "Living with that 'One In A Million' fall-out was heavy shit. I don't know if Axl learned anything from the experience - I would hope he did. Actually, Slash said the best things about that in some interview he did when he said that Axl's free expression was all well and good but he'd hate to think what would happen to any of the band if they got thrown in jail and had to explain the lyrics to the other guys doing time. 'Cos during that period I ended up in jail in Phoenix for a day. I found out… It was pretty fucked up." 

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/vox91.htm

In May manager Alan Niven got his walking papers, reportedly because Axl refused to finish the albums until Doug Goldstein, the band's road manager, unseated him.

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/circus91.htm

As for Axl, well, there might be some solo work out one day...maybe...it depends what mood he's in 


'I want to do some stuff on my own, but not for my sense of identity.' The notorious frontman declared. 'I want to do some things like the song My World on Use Your Illusion II. I want to do a project like that with myself and a computer engineer with anyone who wants to be on it - raw expression.'

Ask him to elaborate on this one-off project, and Axl mentions that he'd like to create with Nine Inch Nails Trent Razor and former Janes' Addiction and current Red Hot Chilli Peppers guitarist Dave Navarro (who if you recall, was once rumored to place Izzy Stradlin when he quit GN'R)


'Those are the two people I want to work with more than anybody else.' admitted Axl. 'I've talked with Trent about doing this industrial synth thing and if we're able to work it out, we'll do a whole project or at least one song. And I definitely want to work with Dave on something. I've always been curious to see what it would sound like to have him and Slash on at least one song.'

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/hp94.htm

According to this source, there has always been an overweening ambition behind Rose's creative madness: "Axl used to sit around and talk about world domination. From the very beginning he has always gone for the big ring." 

Unfortunately for Axl, his talk of world denomination could well be a concept better suited to the past.

Malcolm Dome, editor of Kerrang! - a former bastion of Guns mania - sees the Axl-Slash split as "total bloody suicide. Axl's new band could very easily come out and die the death. From what I can tell you, from our readers' reaction, they just don't care that much about Axl anymore."

A promoter in France notes, "In 1992 Guns played to 30,000 people on Paris, in '93 to less than half that number. If Slash were still in the band, he'd book them into a 60,000 seater." 

"In his years away from the stage, Axl Rose's thunder has been stolen by younger performers," an American promoter points out. "If the kids want a bad-ass hellion to admire, Phil Anselmo of Pantera, Jonathan Davis of Korn, and the singer from Tool do the whole 'I'm a fucked-up child and now you're going to suffer' routine. And if you want the beer-swilling drug-taking hooligan with charisma who sometimes doesn't turn up to gigs - look no further that Oasis's Liam Gallagher

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/icon97.htm

how much of a role did Niven leaving have to do with Izzy leaving? Seems like that's what broke the camels back 

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42 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

not even going to quote you, but you're essentially comparing izzy with dizzy which is an idiotic argument 

 

how much of a role did Niven leaving have to do with Izzy leaving? Seems like that's what broke the camels back 

I would say Izzy probably saw Niven as an ally and a friend,  taken away it  just emphasised  how much he didnt feel able to cope with what was going on around him.

Alan would go on to manage Izzy and the JuJu hounds, so Izzy obviously held him in high regard.

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On 16/03/2017 at 8:02 PM, RONIN said:

Dude, with all due respect, you can be such a drag sometimes. I don't know if you're trolling or just deliberately being obtuse.

“And I never saw it coming. I mean, this is my side of it, he'd probably say I'm completely fucking crazy, but I think he went power mad. Suddenly he was trying to control everything. Did you ever see those fucked up contracts for the journalists to sign?” he asks, referring to the notorious ‘consent forms’ that Axl foolishly tried to foist on the media in 1991. “The control issues just became worse and worse and eventually it filtered down to the band. He was trying to draw up contracts for everybody! And this guy, he’s not a Harvard graduate, Axl. He’s just a guy, just a little guy, who sings, is talented. But man, he turned into this fucking maniac.

When Axl finally sent his old school friend a contract to sign, it was the final straw. “This is right before I left - demoting me to some lower position. They were gonna cut my percentage of royalties down. I was like ‘Fuck you! I’ve been there from day one, why should I do that? Fuck you, I’ll go play the Whiskey’. That’s what happened. It was insane.”

http://teamrock.com/feature/2016-11-07/izzy-stradlin-in-too-deep

  Push finally came to shove in the fall after GN' R completed the first European leg of the tour. Stradlin says he confronted Rose and the band with some changes he felt had to be made "for the sake of the livelihood of the band." One of them was ending the chronic lateness of the shows. Stradlin even went so far as to propose that the responsible party should be fined. That was the last straw. 


      "It was really fucked that it even had to come into play, to base something like that on money," Stradlin grumbles. "But the reality was that it was bumming me out, to be waiting there because someone else is late. It's just not fair to the audience, to the other band members. And the crew! When you go on three hours late, that's three hours less sleep they get." 
      "I expressed my feeling to Axl," he continues, "and the very next night on MTV I saw that I was going to be replaced by the guy in Jane's Addiction. So I took that as an indication that I'd really pissed him off." 
      Stradlin insists that he never wanted to quit GN' R and pursue a solo career. "But Axl made it clear that he was going to do things his way, and there was no space for debate," he says. "So I had to make it clear to everybody that that was the end of the line for me."
 

Two days before Thanksgiving, Guns N' Roses officially announced that Izzy Stradlin had left the group. 

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/izzyrstone92.htm

The same thing of course eventually happened to Duff and Slash in 1996:

"One time [Axl] called me for a private meeting at his favorite Italian restaurant in Brentwood. [...] As far as I can remember, the meeting was basically an attempt to coerce me into accepting the arrangement he and his lawyers were pushing, but in a lot less heavy-handed manner.' (Slash, Autobiography)

"We signed some document that we'd agree to have put in escrow for a certain amount of time to see if we could work things out. But if we didn't agree to put the terms into effect by certain point, the contract would be null and void, so I signed and let it go."I was forced into a secondary role, while Axl was now offically at the helm if I officially let the escrow contract become effective." (Slash, Autobiography)

“It wasn’t even me necessarily leaving the band,” Slash told Piers Morgan years later. “It was not continuing on with the new band that Axl put together, that he was now at the helm of. The new Guns N’ Roses. I was given a contract to basically join his new band, and it took about 24 hours before I decided this was the end of the line.”

"One particular evening, after they were done for the day, I went [...] to dinner at Chasen's [with Keith Richards.] [...] I'd been at the studio rehearsing all day, so when the conversation swung around to my band, I let it all out. Keith took it all in, and then looked me deep in the eye. 'Listen,' he said. 'There's one thing you never do - you never leave.' [...] Keith inspired me; I felt like I had to try harder. The next day I tried to refocus my outlook and I showed up at The Complex ready to make it work at all costs. [...] Axl never showed up to rehearse and the attorneys' negotiation of our 'employment contracts' had taken a really insulting turn." (Slash, autobiography)

"I went to dinner with Axl and his manager. He was a manager of GN'R and still Axl's. [...] Me and Axl were getting along well and we had very good conversation. [...] I said 'Axl, we had very [much] fun together, but it's your own band now. I'm not interested in you as a dictator. I didn't come here to talk about the money advanced for next record. You can have it.'" (Duff, Burrn Magazine, 12/99)

"I told them I had changed. I said if they needed help, they could just call me. I told Axl this was his band, he had ignored everyone and had hired [Paul Huge,] his best friend for the band. I couldn't play with [Paul]." (Duff, 2000)

 

D : Yes. I was always in the middle, the one both came to see, and I got the impression I arbitrated little kids’ quarrels. Matt was never a full member of the band, he was on an ejector seat and Axl said : « I’m gonna fire him. » I answered that this decision required more than one person to be taken since we were a band, that he alone didn’t own the majority. All of this because Matt told him he was wrong. The truth is, Matt was right, and Axl wrong indeed.

HF : Wrong about what?

D : About schedules and the way Axl was late for the next album. Susan, my girlfriend, was pregnant. We were going to have a baby, but this band was becoming a dictatorship, everything had to get done in Axl’s way or it wouldn’t get done at all. It wasn’t like that when we started out. At one point, we were offered a huge sum of money to play a concert in Germany. I thought : « I never played for money and I’m not gonna start now! ». I’ve got a house, I’m secure financially. Post-Neurotic was the worst moment of my career in Guns. I went out for dinner with Axl and I told him : « Enough is enough. This band is a dictatorship and I don’t see myself playing in those conditions. Find someone else. »

HF : Why did Axl become so egomaniac and arrogant?

D : Because many people around him maintain him in that state of mind. They kept telling him he was right. Some of them feared him cause they were scared they were gonna lose their job. It’s as simple as that. I don’t want to do anything that goes against what I am now. I’m honest with myself and with the people surrounding me. Had I stayed with Axl, I would have acted against my personality. And nothing worse could ever happen to me. In this story, the real losers are Guns N’ Roses fans, unfortunately.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=26

"Imagine you and I grow up together and you're my best friend. OK, I'm in Guns N' Roses and I tell the rest you're going to join the band. "OK, Slash, Axl, Matt, guys, this guy is in the band". "Duff, you got a minute?" "No, he's in the band" "Well, no. Everyone in the band has to vote it, Duff, so no way!" "Fuck you, this guy is in the band! I'm not doing anything unless this guy is in the band" "OK, you know what? We'll try and play with him, since you're that much interested in it. Hey Duff, the guy can't play" "I don't care" "Well that's not very reasonable." (Duff, Popular 1, 07/00)

Duff and Slash may have signed off on Izzy's demotion but it was Axl's idea as Izzy indicates. Duff and Slash also signed over the brand name to Axl. Given Paul Huge being hired and Matt being fired, Axl did not need their permission for anything anymore (since he left the GnR partnership in 1995). I'm sorry if this upsets you. Besides, this is Izzy Stradlin, his oldest friend in the band saying this. Pretty damning really. Whether you choose to accept it is really your call, but the evidence seems to support Izzy's side of the story.

With regards to Steven, I think considering what happened to him, it all evened out in the end. 

Huh? We are talking about Izzy, not Slash and Duff. You can't argue your point this way by just moving the goal posts.

Regarding Izzy being offered an employment contract, please explain how that would be possible without Slash and Duff in 1991.

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