http://ultimateclassicrock.com/underrated-rock-albums/ -Chinese Democracy in The list

[thunderram]

19 hours ago, The Holographic Universe said:

Your conversion to this album mirrors mine exactly. I'm assuming your two songs are Rhiad and Scraped? Or Rhiad and Prostitute? But, surely Rhiad. It's the only GNR song I feel zero connection to.

Scraped, yes. Riad, no. I actually have grown to like Riad quite a bit sans the beginning.

And I've loved Prostitute for a while now. It wasn't one of the 4 I liked 8 and 9 years ago, but it has become one of my favorite songs on the album.

 

[-W.A.R-]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

Like Bob Ezrin told Axl back in 2001, the songs sound like they've been painted over one too many times.

and that was in 2001...we're talking another 7 years of more paint.

Edited March 15, 2017 by -W.A.R-

[RONIN]

8 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

It was 2000.

The irony is that Ezrin's buddy Roy Thomas Baker was the one to blame for that and the Beavan album was quite stripped down. 

We know of the Beavan produced album (1998-2000), Roy Thomas Baker produced album (2000-2002), Andy Wallace mixed album (2006-2007), and Axl/Caram produced album (2007-2008).

We don't know much about the album's saga 2003-2008, actually, one wonders what was done.

Does he recognise some of the work he did on any of the leaked versions? “Some of it’s the same and some of it’s different. For instance I have heard a leaked version of Chinese Democracy that has some really weird keyboards in it and I don’t like the sound of that at all. The stuff that we worked on back in ’01 smoked its ass. " - Tom Zutaut

http://teamrock.com/feature/2016-11-23/guns-n-roses-the-making-of-chinese-democracy

RTB stripped out some of the industrial elements of the beavan sessions and gave the songs a more classic feel. It sounds like he didn't know what the fuck he was doing.

Edited March 15, 2017 by RONIN

[wasted]

3 hours ago, RONIN said:

You know, I listened to this album a few days back and I disagree. I don't think it's underrated or overrated - it is what it is.

Like Bob Ezrin told Axl back in 2001, the songs sound like they've been painted over one too many times. Whatever these songs once were, they've totally lost their spirit with the layers upon layers added over the years. The standout cuts for me are Sorry and If The World. TWAT and Prostitute are also highlights. Catcher in the Rye could have been but the studio version is ruined by Bumblefoot's tasteless playing. And that's the problem -- nearly every song made me think -- "that's cool...oh but that sucks...this would sound so much better with Slash". 

It's impossible to even view these objectively because the demos for many of these songs sound better than the final versions. That seems to be the general agreement of the cavalcade of producers/engineers that this project has had.

There is a potentially great, perhaps even classic, record in here...worthy of illusions. But they would need to go back to the raw demos and have Duff/Slash arrange them to get the best out of these songs. As it stands right now, CD is a strong, albeit highly flawed album that is hopelessly overproduced.

I'm kind of the other way, the songs are decent rock songs like much of UYI, but the sound and production and layers is what makes it more interesting. Hard rock/prog rock, Queen/Alt rock, these opposites just made it sound fresh. Nothing too weird, but like what? But it doesn't make sense really. We haven't been trained to listen to CD. 

It reminds me of Angel Dust/Faith No More in that it can't be digested on first listen. You have to listen a few times and then the songs emerge. And it also reminds me of Achtung Baby as in at first it's not sounding like U2 but in the end it does. 

[bucketfoot]

On 14/03/2017 at 8:35 AM, The Holographic Universe said:

Your conversion to this album mirrors mine exactly. I'm assuming your two songs are Rhiad and Scraped? Or Rhiad and Prostitute? But, surely Rhiad. It's the only GNR song I feel zero connection to.

Prostitute is one of the best songs on CD imo, so different from anything else they've done.

[wasted]

10 hours ago, -W.A.R- said:

and that was in 2001...we're talking another 7 years of more paint.

Slash and Duff are paint thinner. 

[auad]

Just now, bucketfoot said:

Prostitute is one of the best songs on CD imo, so different from anything else they've done.

...anything else "axl" done...

[bucketfoot]

7 minutes ago, auad said:

...anything else "axl" done...

Haha! Yeah, I see your point. You know what I mean though. It's so different from any other song GN'R have done, it's very experimental/progressive. I love the song.

[AlexC]

I'm sure there's probably at least one thread about this but does anyone know definitively when Axl actually tracked the vocals? To me he sounds remarkably consistent as if they were all done in one go. I know there were leaks over the years leading up to the album release so I'm sure he's probably recorded vocals multiple times over the 15 years it took to make it but did he re-do them all in '06/'07ish just before it was released?

[Słash]

5 minutes ago, AlexC said:

I'm sure there's probably at least one thread about this but does anyone know definitively when Axl actually tracked the vocals? To me he sounds remarkably consistent as if they were all done in one go. I know there were leaks over the years leading up to the album release so I'm sure he's probably recorded vocals multiple times over the 15 years it took to make it but did he re-do them all in '06/'07ish just before it was released?

 He did re re record vocals a couple of times for the same songs. I did read an article about it somewhere. 

He even recorded words one by one. 

I don't know which vocals of his were used on the record, lm sure the vocals in Madagascar in the final version is of him from the late 90's. He sounded the same on the leaked version too. 

[AlexC]

2 minutes ago, Słash said:

 He did re re record vocals a couple of times for the same songs. I did read an article about it somewhere. 

He even recorded words one by one. 

I don't know which vocals of his were used on the record, lm sure the vocals in Madagascar in the final version is of him from the late 90's. He sounded the same on the leaked version too. 

I suppose he could've recorded them sporadically over the years and kept them and used them on the final version. My logic behind saying he sounded consistent is just going off his live vocals from certain periods but I guess that's irrelevant as in the studio he can sound however he wants. Especially if he's as meticulous as he's rumoured to be.

[Słash]

7 minutes ago, AlexC said:

I suppose he could've recorded them sporadically over the years and kept them and used them on the final version. My logic behind saying he sounded consistent is just going off his live vocals from certain periods but I guess that's irrelevant as in the studio he can sound however he wants. Especially if he's as meticulous as he's rumoured to be.

It seems he re re re re recorded his vocals on all the songs in 2006/2007 also

Axl Rose arrived at the Palms Studio inside the resort and worked for 13 days in 2006 on his vocals for the finally released disc. Gray recalls a list of 14 songs (the same number as on the released version) many with working titles. Among those Rose worked on at Palms Studio he is sure are on the disc are 'Chinese Democracy,' 'Madagascar' and 'Prostitute.'" (LA Times, 11/25/08)

He proved a good guy to be around. We would start about 5 or 6 in the evening, hitting tape by 7. We worked five or six hours. These were great sessions." (Mark Gray, LA Times, 11/25/08)

As the album release required eight weeks of preparation with the label, this was the time when he would've had to turn the finished product in to meet the March 6th release date.

However, Axl then moved the base of operations to New York, compromising the tentative release date in favor of additional recording.

 

[bucketfoot]

On 15/03/2017 at 7:05 PM, AlexC said:

I'm sure there's probably at least one thread about this but does anyone know definitively when Axl actually tracked the vocals? To me he sounds remarkably consistent as if they were all done in one go. I know there were leaks over the years leading up to the album release so I'm sure he's probably recorded vocals multiple times over the 15 years it took to make it but did he re-do them all in '06/'07ish just before it was released?

I'm sure the majority of the vocals that appear on the final release were done during Sean Beavan's time on the album ('98-2000). Then the vocals for some of the later songs that were written would've been recorded after this, he probably added bits over the years as well, backing vocals etc.

Edited March 18, 2017 by bucketfoot

[AlexC]

17 minutes ago, Słash said:

It seems he re re re re recorded his vocals on all the songs in 2006/2007 also

Axl Rose arrived at the Palms Studio inside the resort and worked for 13 days in 2006 on his vocals for the finally released disc. Gray recalls a list of 14 songs (the same number as on the released version) many with working titles. Among those Rose worked on at Palms Studio he is sure are on the disc are 'Chinese Democracy,' 'Madagascar' and 'Prostitute.'" (LA Times, 11/25/08)

He proved a good guy to be around. We would start about 5 or 6 in the evening, hitting tape by 7. We worked five or six hours. These were great sessions." (Mark Gray, LA Times, 11/25/08)

As the album release required eight weeks of preparation with the label, this was the time when he would've had to turn the finished product in to meet the March 6th release date.

However, Axl then moved the base of operations to New York, compromising the tentative release date in favor of additional recording.

 

Ah so if that's true, then my initial instinct was actually correct. Although just because he did re-record all of the tracks in '06/'07 it doesn't mean they're the ones that were used on the album. But to me, like I said earlier, all of his vocals sound like they're from that period.

[Słash]

9 minutes ago, AlexC said:

Ah so if that's true, then my initial instinct was actually correct. Although just because he did re-record all of the tracks in '06/'07 it doesn't mean they're the ones that were used on the album. But to me, like I said earlier, all of his vocals sound like they're from that period.

So much re re re recording was a big waste of money and time, I really din't get the need of re re recording so much, like if he had already re re recorded it in 2006, he could have easily released the album by March 2007, but NO, he had to re re re re record again at a studio in NY. 

[AlexC]

6 minutes ago, Słash said:

So much re re re recording was a big waste of money and time, I really din't get the need of re re recording so much, like if he had already re re recorded it in 2006, he could have easily released the album by March 2007, but NO, he had to re re re re record again at a studio in NY. 

I think it's almost a certainty that Axl was the sole reason for it being delayed for over a decade. All these excuses of how it was the label's fault is just nonsense.

[Sunset Gardner]

axl's solo record is a testament the hell he must've been going through at the time.  it took forever because the songs were never right, they were never good enough, axl knew it, he knew he needed his real bandmates, he knew deep down he needed to heal those wounds, but his ego sabotaged his life and his prime and he chose to work with cartoon character employees he hired.  and so in the end you get wasted years, wasted talent, wasted potential, you a get desperate album like CD.   

CD will never be over rated.  it will always be a mess.  a man chasing his tail, wondering why he can't just easily replace his true bandmates with hired employees who obediently do as he says and know any wrong move could get them fired.  that's not a band.  that's commerce.  and commerce sounds cold and lost.  just like CD.  

[AlexC]

24 minutes ago, Sunset Gardner said:

axl's solo record is a testament the hell he must've been going through at the time.  it took forever because the songs were never right, they were never good enough, axl knew it, he knew he needed his real bandmates, he knew deep down he needed to heal those wounds, but his ego sabotaged his life and his prime and he chose to work with cartoon character employees he hired.  and so in the end you get wasted years, wasted talent, wasted potential, you a get desperate album like CD.   

CD will never be over rated.  it will always be a mess.  a man chasing his tail, wondering why he can't just easily replace his true bandmates with hired employees who obediently do as he says and know any wrong move could get them fired.  that's not a band.  that's commerce.  and commerce sounds cold and lost.  just like CD.  

It sounds the opposite of a mess to me. It's pretty much what obsessive attention to every conceivable millisecond of sound, sounds like.

[RONIN]

18 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

Zoot largely managed like he always did. Who knows what he means about the title track but the earliest leak we have is quite boring in comparison to 2001-2002 live performances. 

We don't know what RTB did exactly except micro-manage and have them re-record constantly. Yes he brought in a more classic style but he also drove the project into the ground. $50 it sounded as good as it was gonna sound in early 2001 after Buckethead added his stuff in.

I bet Beavan probably produced/mixed it something like Antichrist Superstar. Very sparse and "raw" as Tommy put it.

Yeah it seems like according to most involved with the production, the album should have come out in 2001. It was ready to go and sounded awesome. I think they probably could have even gotten it out in late 2000 if Axl was more motivated.

I'm sure Beavan would have done a great job with the rockers (OMG is kickass), but not sure on the ballads. Was the Brian May Catcher in the Rye leak the original raw demo from the Beavan sessions or was that what RTB had modified it to? Who knows...but if that was from the Beavan sessions, that album would have been really cool. Certainly much better than what we ended up with. That being said, Sorry and Prostitute (two of the strongest cuts) were not from the Sean Beavan sessions iirc.

Edited March 16, 2017 by RONIN

[RONIN]

4 hours ago, AlexC said:

I think it's almost a certainty that Axl was the sole reason for it being delayed for over a decade. All these excuses of how it was the label's fault is just nonsense.

Of course it is. That's why it's always hilarious to hear Tommy blame the record company, Buckethead, santa claus, etc. The truth is the dude was lazy and pissing millions away by never showing up to the studio. Buckethead quit out of frustration with the inactivity. Josh Freese and Billy Howerdel started up APC out of boredom in the studio waiting for Axl (!). 

He just didn't give a fuck -- that's what happens when you own the name to the brand and the record company keeps advancing you cash. They had no leverage over him and they made it worse by appeasing him with constant advances and giving him whatever he wanted. Should have put a boot up his ass and cut him off the tab which they finally did in 2004 but it was too little, too late. Atleast if Duff and Slash were co-owners of the brand, the record company could have applied pressure on them to speed up the process but Axl made sure to take care of that loose end.

I'm sure he was shocked by the apathy that greeted the release of CD. You can only cry wolf so many times before nobody cares anymore. That and the industry itself had changed -- which meant no more multi-million dollar deals for Chinese Democracy 2. Axl was SOL after the album came out. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by RONIN

[RONIN]

17 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

I'm probably going to have to work on an infographic so GN'R fans can keep this stuff straight. 

Prostitute was considered to be the standout track from the Beavan sessions but yes, you're right Sorry was a Buckethead invention. 

The track-listing was probably something along the lines as follows:

1. Chinese Democracy
2. Oh My God
3. Riad and the Bedouins
4. The Blues (Street of Dreams)
5. There Was A Time
6. I.R.S.
7. Oklahoma (Berlin)
8. Silkworms*
9. Catcher In The Rye
10. Madagascar **
11. Atlas Shrugged
12. If The World
13. Prostitute

* This is purely a guess, as it is the only track listed that doesn't have some known ties to the Beavan era.

** This was worked on by Youth who predates Beavan on the project. It's therefore plausible that Beavan continued to develop the song although he doesn't have a formal credit. 

I find this most interesting:

 

Love this. Looks about right to me. Track 14 could have been This I love, iirc, Axl was dusting that one off in 2000 as well. 

Silkworms on the tracklist could have been Axl's tip of the hat to My World 

[wasted]

If Slash was on board maybe they could have done more UYI type versions of SOD, Twat, Catcher, IRS, Madagascar, TIL, Prostitute. But he seemed mot to really want to at the time. Snakepit is kind of more what Slash wanted to do it seems, a rawer UYI. That might be cool now. Just get the songs and do them with minimal production. 

My dream has always been for a band to release a live album of new material. 

[bucketfoot]

38 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Of course it is. That's why it's always hilarious to hear Tommy blame the record company, Buckethead, santa claus, etc. The truth is the dude was lazy and pissing millions away by never showing up to the studio. Buckethead quit out of frustration with the inactivity. Josh Freese and Billy Howerdel started up APC out of boredom in the studio waiting for Axl (!). 

He just didn't give a fuck -- that's what happens when you own the name to the brand and the record company keeps advancing you cash. They had no leverage over him and they made it worse by appeasing him with constant advances and giving him whatever he wanted. Should have put a boot up his ass and cut him off the tab which they finally did in 2004 but it was too little, too late. Atleast if Duff and Slash were co-owners of the brand, the record company could have applied pressure on them to speed up the process but Axl made sure to take care of that loose end.

I'm sure he was shocked by the apathy that greeted the release of CD. You can only cry wolf so many times before nobody cares anymore. That and the industry itself had changed -- which meant no more multi-million dollar deals for Chinese Democracy 2. Axl was SOL after the album came out. 

This, he waited too long and in the end people had simply lost interest. If the record company had cut the supply off sooner, we would have probably seen the album a lot sooner but they indulged him far too much. It must have been so frustrating for Buckethead and Finck, who can blame them for fucking off and doing something else?

[IkaruFunk]

Love this thread. 

CD will never cease to fascinate me as an album, it truly is one of a kind, for better or worse. If we could only hear the rest of the recorded songs, even demos. So much wasted potential and talent.

I'm still hoping for a huge Chinese Leftovers boxset with all the different takes, masters and remixes, etc... The 10th anniversay is approaching  

Edit: That 2000 IRS demo someone posted here is brillliant. Dark and heavy as fuck. Were those the rumoured Beavan sessions?

Edited March 16, 2017 by IkaruFunk

[MYWIFEMYLIFE]

TSI is a wonderful album full of interesting covers and the sound quality is awesome.

Chin Dem is a masterpiece. It's the only GNR kinda record among all the member's solo albums.