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Was Axl a Poser during UYI Era?


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11 minutes ago, Tom-Ass said:

Axl had lost his mind during the UYI era.. He had became every thing he once stood and preached against. Not sure if I can blame him.. If you weren't there you may not realize how fucking huge these guys became. They were powerful and everybody handles power differently...

Well yeah... they all lost their mind in some way. Duff writes about this whole fame thing in his book eloquently. We can't even relate to that. Imagine going from this street bum, barely having any money, to suddenly being famous and getting tons of money and being recognised everywhere. That would mess with even a stable person's mind, let alone in Axl's case, dealing with that and his unresolved shitty childhood on top of it. 

 

Edited by EvanG
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2 hours ago, Billsfan said:

Fight, riot, whatever. Is accuracy or lack of accuracy really worth calling for Kurt's head? :P 

I wasn't calling for his head, but now that you give me the idea... off with his head! :angry:
I expect for your to compliance on completing this task to be swift and effective.

 

Really, though, I was just trying to determine where what he says fits into the other things I've learned and how much weight to give it when it goes up on the scale against other things I learn. Like I don't know that I'd give it any more weight than anyone else quoted during the time who didn't know Axl.

 

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This thread seems to have evolved into a few different arguments :shrugs:

back on the poser topic, Manson never even gave a proper argument for his poser comment. 

As someone else said, most celebrities are posers in the general term, but Manson obviously used the term in a negative way and then didn't really put forward an argument for it. 

I mean, singling Axl out is pretty fucking lame considering at that time there was a lot of people that he could have aimed that barb at? So why Axl? 

It's a bit like Patton randomly taking shots at Axl last year or Gene bringing Axl up randomly for no reason, it makes no sense, it's not like Axl is out there in the podcasts every Tuesday talking shit about these people? 

As I said, there's plenty of things you could aim at Axl, but poser or talking shit about doing an Axl Rose is pretty average, some celebrities seem quite butt hurt over Axl even to this day. 

These people talk a lot of shit based on what? One 10 minute interaction with the guy? 

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1 hour ago, Kris_1989 said:

Summed up your own post before you even got started, bravo!

Being a poser, by definition, is pretending to be something you're not. If Metallica decides to go put out a disco record tomorrow that doesn't make them posers. That just means they and their music taste has changed from when they were originally formed. Just because you don't care for the new direction doesn't make it wrong. That's 100% your issue and nothing to do with the band. People evolve as they age. That doesn't mean that they're putting on show or posing.

I'll never understand why so called "fans" try to limit the type of music that their favorite artists produce. Let them play around and make whatever the fuck they want. If you don't like it, skip that album and try again with the next one. Putting a cap on everything and saying "HARD ROCK OR NOTHING" is a sure fire way to kill a band fast.

------

But back to the actual topic, I don't think Axl was posing. I think he was just young and trying to figure out who he was still. Unfortunately he had to do that in the public eye.

 

No. Bullshit is saying Axl sounds bad during this tour. He doesn't. 

 

Or that  he was chasing trends just because he wanted to incorporate certain styles into his music. 

Or that Chinese Democraxy isn't Guns N' Roses.

Metallica had a wholesale image makeover and it was contrived as fuck. I like Load and Reload. Don't try to tell me that entire time period wasn't a concerted effort to stay relevant. It was. And it backfired. Suddenly all four of them wanted to cut their hair AND dress differently AND play the current musical trend. 

Edited by GnR Chris
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his act was a bit grandiose then but i think he was more of a poser during the freak show era.

wearing button up shirts with dragons on them, the huge jerseys, the braids and making songs like Oh My God was nothing more than a mid life crisis.

Edited by -W.A.R-
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5 minutes ago, -W.A.R- said:

his act was bit grandiose but i think he was more of a poser during the freak show era...wearing button up shirts with dragons on them, the huge jerseys, the braids and making songs like Oh My God.

THIS 

the UYI era was at least cool as his look evolved into a homie skater and grunge type of dude which back then was the way to be 

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3 hours ago, maynard said:

Dude, it was exceptional. He sounds really bad nowadays, especially compared to that era. Do you know why everyone loves 2010? Because Axl sounded like.... Axl Rose!

He wasn't out of breath at all compared to the current tour or post 2011 shows. I don't like that cicle because of DJ Ashba but Axl was great.

He sounds like shit nowadays with that awful clean and weak voice. It's a shame.

He did sound like Axl (plenty of early 90s rasp), but he was gasping for air a lot of the time too. It's hard to have great pitch when you can't get your air. I watched a lot of performances of those shows where they'd be playing something and he'd be going for it, but you could tell he was straining and out of breath (A lot of the CD songs for example - If the world, Scraped, Twat, Shacklers).

He sounded 1000 times better than 2011-2014 though. My personal preference is 2006 Axl though, for me that was Axl at his absolute best.

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21 hours ago, RONIN said:

Was there any truth to James Hetfield's nickname for the redhead : Axl "Pose"?

I don't want this thread to derail so let me be more specific -- for anyone that was around during the UYI era, was Axl perceived as trying to be something he was not? I.e. Lacking authenticity/integrity?

An interesting quote from Marilyn Manson and his keyboardist re: the Charles Manson debacle:

What catapulted him to his current notoriety? Axl Rose?

Gacy - Every week for the last five years you can see Manson on the cover of Weekly World News or The Star. You can't help but see an article about him or his followers. His name is always in some weekly trash journal, or on Current Affair, or Inside Edition, or Hard Copy.

Manson - I went out to LA to talk to Trent about starting the record and we were backstage at a concert hanging out with Axl Rose. He was telling me about The Spaghetti Incident record and hadn't mentioned anything about Manson. I think it's a case of someone with no respect anymore trying to get some notoriety from the underground crowd. I think it was a shallow thing. It was even more shallow that he didn't back himself up on it. He cried to the press like a pussy. It was a publicity stunt that totally backfired.

Gacy - It's one thing to be an asshole or racist, it's another to be a hypocrite. You really like it and then as soon as you're confronted on it, you sit there and cop out because you're afraid of the heat you'll catch. People gave him more shit for Manson than all the stuff he'd said about hooray for tolerance!s and immigrants.

http://www.mansonwiki.com/wiki/Interview:Seconds_Magazine_Interviews_Marilyn_Manson_%26_Madonna_Wayne_Gacy

 

So according to Manson, Axl was perceived as having zero respect from his peers in 1993 and appeared to have little if any street cred.

I wouldn't bash Marilyn Manson just for saying negative things about Axl, but he was talking bullshit here. The fact that Axl didn't talk about Manson doesn't mean anything about his intentions. Also, when Axl "cried to the press" about it? He hardly did any interviews at that time; he didn't do more than 2-3 after the release of TSI and in none of them he "cried".

20 hours ago, RONIN said:

Well see, I don't fault him for liking NWA. I thought Axl had great taste in music for the most part and he chose some amazing bands to open for GnR during the UYI tour. The guy predicted the rise of NIN, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Soundgarden, etc. The unfortunate thing really was -- rather than finding a way to blend old guns with these influences, he wanted to abandon the entire sound of Guns for something new.

Considering how many fans had problems with Use Your Illusion and the Axl ballads, I can't imagine an album full of "Oh my God" going over well with the GnR fanbase of the mid 90's. Evolution is one thing but it seems to me he wanted to overhaul the sound entirely.

7 hours ago, Stoymatic said:

so, when axl decided he wanted to use guns as his solo record, he thought he could make the other guys in the band play the stuff he wanted them to play, correct? I have always been very interested in this topic. does axl just say" hey, here is how guns is going to sound from this point moving forward" and totally disregard any other band members imput? there has to be a topic somewhere in this forum covering this, does anyone have a link? 

We don't know for a fact that he wanted to abandon the sound of GnR. We know what Slash said (but then in his book he said he wouldn't mind doing something industrial based if everything else between him and Axl was good) and Gilby said something. But Axl talked only about 1-2 songs with Trent Reznor and David Navarro in the quote you posted, and in his later interviews he insisted that he didn't want to change the direction when Slash was still around, but just to incorporate some new elements. Also I don't think he was resentful about the Illusions then. And he was still (and always remained) into the ballads; he had TIL (and maybe some more), and Slash said "I'm not doing any more Stephanie Seymour ballads".

12 hours ago, Original said:

Why this didn't just happen we'll never know.  This is exactly what they shoulda done- Axl gotten this garbage out of his system, Duff sober up, Slash & Matt clean up/clear heads, Gilby coulda toured and worked as studio musician for others and/or even Axl and then regrouped in '96 (or even later) - all a bit older and wiser yet with great years ahead.

"And I was like, 'Cool! Do your thing. That way you'll get it out of your system, and when you get back we'll just be Guns N' Roses.'" (Slash, Metal Hammer, 11/95)

Pure speculation: probably the people he wanted to work with (Trent Reznor, Grohl, Navarro) weren't interested. Axl was considered "uncool" back then.

15 hours ago, RussTCB said:

 Do I think he was a person who wanted us expand out musical horizons? No. I'm not doubting that he was a fan of many different types of music, but the NWA & Nirvana gear comes off a little disingenuous to me when I look back at times.

Judging from interviews and things other people have said, I think that at least his interest in Nirvana was genuine.

9 hours ago, tremolo said:

Bowie did it himself, he killed and recreated himself over and over, and never went back. BUT Bowie wasn't trying to ride the trends of the time, he was just moving into something else just because his own creativity was taking him to different places. I think Axl just wanted to follow the trend to remain relevant.

Again, fuck the fans. I think if Axl had succeeded in changing styles, he would have found the right crowds, but it seems that the problems were:

- His motivations (remaining relevant by whoring himself out to the trends of the time)

- Him being part of a band, and the rest of the band not wanting to change styles, as opposed to Bowie who was a one-man show.

Which trend did he follow with November Rain, Estranged and Breakdown? They had no relevance to where the music was at (or was going) at the time. Axl just did what he wanted.

21 hours ago, RONIN said:

But on the other hand, he appears to be a very confused person throughout the UYI era and the mid to late 90's. Almost like the mixed reaction to UYI and the criticism from the press and Grunge/Alternative camp were making him doubt himself. Hence....Axl "Pose". Then there's the other stuff like the ridiculous cigarette holder he always carried around, his Axl converse shoes, etc -- just seemed like he was trying too hard.

In my opinion Axl's issue wasn't about following the trends, but that he wanted to reach a more sophisticated and intellectual audience beyond metalheads, Sunset Strip bands fans, middle Americans and kids; he wanted to be acknowledged as an artist, and this is the reason he cared so much about reviews. But he had that from the start, it wasn't a UYI or post-UYI era thing. I don't see it as posing.

I think the cigarette holder was a kind of special made filter to protect his voice.

-------

To answer the question: No, I don't think Axl was a poser. He can be accused for a lot of things, but not for this.

Edited by Blackstar
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of course CD isn't a guns record, and of course axl's solo band isn't gnr.  would you call a record with just mick a stones record?  would you call mick touring the world without keith, charlie, ronny, the stones?  absolutely not you wouldn't.  you'd say that's mick's lawyers getting him names rights, and his ego destroying his prime years with a bunch of hired employees.  

 

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19 hours ago, Gunner927 said:

I don't think they would've been able to put something new together by '93. They pretty much only put TSI out because it was fun for them after the undertaking that was UYI, and they recorded most of it on the road. It's clear things with Axl & Slash were deteriorating pretty rapidly, as evidenced by the debacle with Sympathy for the Devil. And their efforts to do something in '94 and '95 went nowhere.

It's likely that if they had tried to rush another new album or EP of material out, the implosion would've just came sooner.

I guess the hypothetical scenario is them getting off the road faster and putting out a record in '93 like Nirvana did w/ In Utero. It might have been a great way to take the spotlight off their antics/bad press and refocus the attention on the music. 

 

18 hours ago, Tadsy said:

Well said, this is pretty much my take on it too. 

No doubt what Slash was saying in those quotes above was true too. I very much believe what Slash was saying was true, but I don't believe Slash thought he was a poser, I think perhaps Axl was more aware that there might have been an expiry time frame on GNR being at the top and he thought that moving with the times was going to prolong the band where as what slash said was, I just don't fucking care, I want to rock out like I've always done. 

Its interesting to me because the way slash says it that if Axl had of just gone away for a year and done whatever the hell he wanted and then come back, then slash would have waited and been cool, as long as it wasn't with guns, and that's where it goes off the rails. 

One last point, it's easy for Manson and pricks like Kiss to come out and bag Axl, but what's the motive? There's always a motive. For what it's worth I don't see Axl giving interviews bagging people out to big himself up, these people calling Axl as poser are doing just that. 

I take that shit with a grain of salt. 

Axl was/is a fucking rock star, sure not everyone's cup of tea and yes he's out there to be criticised and quite rightly for some things, but calling him a poser sounds fucking bitchy And pretty shallow in itself. All Axl said was he'd like to work with those people? What's the problem? 

 

Recognizing the shifting tide of music is one thing but it seems like Axl just wanted to make an album with a potpourri of every hot trend there was at the time. A few NIN sounding tracks, a couple Pearl Jam-ish stuff, some Jane's Addiction here and there -- I don't think there was any cohesive vision in where he wanted to take the band and that really hasn't changed in 25 years since UYI came out. Chinese Democracy is disjointed with a bunch of different ideas going through it.

Slash wanted to do his cock rock thing. I think on his end, he probably felt he made so many compromises to get UYI done that he wanted to get some of his decision making power back in the band. Once you cede power though, you usually can't get it back.

I don't see any motive for Manson to bash Axl. He's a fan of Axl and guns, but like many fans of that time, he was disappointed with AR. The interviewer is asking him about whether AR brought back the interest in Manson so he answers the question.  

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3 hours ago, GnR Chris said:

 

No. Bullshit is saying Axl sounds bad during this tour. He doesn't. 

 

Or that  he was chasing trends just because he wanted to incorporate certain styles into his music. 

Or that Chinese Democraxy isn't Guns N' Roses.

Metallica had a wholesale image makeover and it was contrived as fuck. I like Load and Reload. Don't try to tell me that entire time period wasn't a concerted effort to stay relevant. It was. And it backfired. Suddenly all four of them wanted to cut their hair AND dress differently AND play the current musical trend. 

Dude. The chinese democracy arguments been done to death. To some people it isnt gnr. Who cares?

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9 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Dude. The chinese democracy arguments been done to death. To some people it isnt gnr. Who cares?

It's  not an opinion. It's a fact. It's gnr. I brought it up in response to others in this thread. 

 

You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. 

 

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1 minute ago, GnR Chris said:

It's  not an opinion. It's a fact. It's gnr. 

 

You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. 

 

Lol copying quotes from certain banned members are we?

I consider it a GNR album (with an asterisk), some people dont though and you know exactly why. Who gives a fuck? Leave it be.You came here to start shit because you saw something you didnt like. That is perfectly cool, but dont spam the board with the same redundant arguments that have been done literally thousands of times.

 

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12 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Lol copying quotes from certain banned members are we?

I consider it a GNR album (with an asterisk), some people dont though and you know exactly why. Who gives a fuck? Leave it be.You came here to start shit because you saw something you didnt like. That is perfectly cool, but dont spam the board with the same redundant arguments that have been done literally thousands of times.

 

I was paraphrasing Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who I'm sure wasn't the first person to say it anyway. 

How am I spamming a board by directly responding to others who brought up Axl and the record? 

I don't care if people like Chinese. And I don't care what they consider to be a real gnr record. It's Guns N' Roses whether people want it to be or not. And it's also not a solo record considering the writing credits. So the person who said that here are also wrong about that. 

 

"the only time axl was ever a poser was when he was playing in his solo band and was calling it gnr.  or that time he made a solo record and called it chinese democracy, he was posing then too."

And

"of course CD isn't a guns record, and of course axl's solo band isn't gnr.  would you call a record with just mick a stones record?  would you call mick touring the world without keith, charlie, ronny, the stones?  absolutely not you wouldn't.  you'd say that's mick's lawyers getting him names rights, and his ego destroying his prime years with a bunch of hired employees."

 

Edited by GnR Chris
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Just now, GnR Chris said:

I was paraphrasing Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who I'm sure wasn't the first person to say it anyway. 

How am I spamming a board by directly responding to others who brought up Axl and the record? 

I don't care if people like Chinese. And I don't care what they consider to be a real gnr record. It's Guns N' Roses whether people want it to be or not. And it's also not a solo record considering the writing credits. So people who said that here are also wrong about that. 

 

 

You saw a thread with people saying things about Axl you don't like. Great, that's cool. You can respond however you want... but you come out questioning how people can be fans, then proceed to insult other artists. Do you not see why that is hypocritical and why that may ruffle a few feathers?

Again, we don't need the "IS CHINESE DEMOCRACY A TRUE GNR ALBUM?" talk. You've been around a while. It doesn't matter what it "factually" is or if you or if someone else here doesn't view it as a GNR album. I am saying, who cares anymore? It is exhausting rereading the same argument over and over again. One poster (who appears to be a noob account, anyways) brought it up, why respond to everyone who claims it isn't a GNR album?

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16 hours ago, EvanG said:

I don't think he was pretending to be someone he was not. He was true to himself in that sense.

I do think he was a diva and his ego got out of control and that definitely hurt his street cred in the early 90s.

Especially with the change in the music industry and a lot of alternative and garage bands that got exposure looked like how the kids looked, there wasn't a lot of difference between the guys on stage and the kids in the crowd. It became very anti-rockstar after the Nirvana's and Pearl Jam's got big, and especially Axl looked and acted like a rockstar. Although he got in on the flannel and early 90's fashion, he still acted like a diva. Kurt Cobain was vomiting blood and OD'ing half hour before the show and still made it on time for the show, while Axl already cancelled if his throat hurt. That's not good for your street cred.

Great point. Even the rockstars of that era were still getting to the gigs and doing the shows properly. 

Mike Patton gets a phone call in his Kensington hotel room telling him tonight's show in Manchester has been canceled. Axl Rose is suffering from exhaustion. Patton, looking a bit like an auto mechanic no one would trust, howls like it's the funniest thing he's ever heard. Downstairs an unshaven, dispirited bass player sits in the lobby. Unlike Patton, Billy Gould says he was looking forward to tonight's concert, if only because it would give him something to do. "But I can understand how Axl would be kind of exhausted, with this rigorous schedule of ours," he deadpans. 

So far, the Guns N' Roses European tour is averaging two concers per week. FNM are used to gigging six nights out of seven. 
But FNM don't share a common musical goal so much as a collective loathing for good taste. The whole stadium-tour circus bugs them. 

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=26724.0;wap2

16 hours ago, maynard said:

I'm all for bands changing their sound and one of the reasons I really liked GNR was because the UYI albums sound very different from AFD. But there's evolution and there's appelaing to the masses and selling out.

U2 have always changed their sound and they were always a pop band. None of their reinventions sound forced. They were natural. The band members agreed on follow a certain directions.

Axl wanted to force Slash, Duff, Gilby, etc. to do something they never wanted. He saw GNR as his solo project. He destroyed the band by doing that.

That's why CD is not the lol natural evolution to the UYI/GNR sound. It's a messy Axl solo project, never a GNR record. It's Axl impressed by new music and thinking 'I can do that too'. How wrong he is/was.

Axl wanted to look cool to the 90s kids. By doing that, he destroyed a great hard rock band.

Exactly -- this is pretty much where I stand as well. The UYI albums made me a fan -- I don't think I'd have been a fan had they just cranked out a bunch of AFD sounding albums. 

What Axl was attempting to do was chase his own muse at the expense of the rest of the band. I think Duff very much wanted to evolve the band with Axl but even he had his limits (finding OMG to be an awful track). They would have still had issues with Izzy and Slash who were more interested in simply staying in their lane as a traditional hard rock band. 

Even if they had gotten over that hurdle and found a way to move the GnR sound forward, like you said, it seems like Axl had some serious hubris and wanted to prove he could do what his peers like Patton, Cobain, Reznor, etc were doing and way overreaching beyond his abilities. Maybe he wanted his indie cred back -- maybe he wanted to be accepted as an artist like the rest of these bands...who knows, but his direction for the band doesn't seem authentic to me in hindsight.

16 hours ago, EvanG said:

I commend him for trying something new, at least he's not the Foo Fighters or Aerosmith, both great bands, but they've never changed their sound and keep making the same albums. But I agree that he shouldn't have used the GnR name, that was really his biggest mistake. Whether CD is any good or not is purely subjective.

 

Or advance the sound but do it in a way that feels organic and real. Some people feel they overreached with UYI, but had they perhaps held off on November Rain and the other "epics" for a future release -- that may have been a smoother transition.

I'm glad Axl and Duff wanted to do something different from the "southern rock" album that Slash wanted, but why not just go more in a Pearl Jam and Soundgarden direction than just doing a 180 and trying to be Trent Reznor? That's where he lost Duff. Oh my God is a quantum leap away from what Guns was. I love that song but it should have either been an Axl solo song or 2 albums post-UYI2. 

15 hours ago, Original said:

Why this didn't just happen we'll never know.  This is exactly what they shoulda done- Axl gotten this garbage out of his system, Duff sober up, Slash & Matt clean up/clear heads, Gilby coulda toured and worked as studio musician for others and/or even Axl and then regrouped in '96 (or even later) - all a bit older and wiser yet with great years ahead.

"And I was like, 'Cool! Do your thing. That way you'll get it out of your system, and when you get back we'll just be Guns N' Roses.'" (Slash, Metal Hammer, 11/95)

It wouldn't have worked for the simple reason that Guns N Roses means different things to all the members of the band clearly. For Slash, GnR is defined by Paradise City. Doubt Axl or even Duff would agree with that, let alone Izzy. 

It seems to me like a straightforward follow-up to UYI 2 would have been impossible for this band in the mid 90's. From what we know, it seems like Slash wanted to take them back in time. The snakepit record disappeared without a trace. I was 12 in '95 - my classmates in school were into Pearl Jam and The Smashing Pumpkins. There were still plenty of fans of Metallica and Nirvana among my friends. Nobody was into GnR in my circle back then.

They definitely had to do something different but it's hard to say what they could have done. 

 

15 hours ago, maynard said:

I'd commed him if it was a case of him truly getting to understand how noise, experimental, EDM, industrial, alternative rock or even nu metal work. CD is the sound of a fish out of water, IMO. It's too pretentious for me to respect it. Axl is a singer and piano player, not Trent Reznor.

Aerosmith changed their sound in the 90s and became a good pop rock band IMO. They moved to a new direction as a band. (They sold out a bit but fuck, 'Pink' and 'Miss a Thing' are damn good songs). Axl wanted to force GNR to become something else by himself. I can't commend that either.

Agreed on using the GNR name being a mistake.

I'll always think about an angry Axl solo record with 12 Oh My Gods. Produced by Sean Beaven. Axl singing like a demon (and not assuming production duties). Guitars by Robin and BH.

 

A man can dream.

 

 

 

 

We'll never know if he could have done these things properly because he was saddled with the GnR name and therefore couldn't go all the way and actually do a real Axl/Reznor collaboration. 

I would have been down for a record of 12 OMG in the late 90's from Axl but not under the GnR name. I would have considered them posers if they had done that. 

That being said, the only Nu Guns album I wanted was the album you mentioned, the "2000 Intentions" record he did with Sean Beavan.

15 hours ago, maynard said:

Sure. But Aerosmith is more of a fair comparsion. Axl is many leagues below Bowie and Radiohead. Although his pretentiousness is much higher than theirs.

I don't think CD is really what he wanted. He kept adding stuff as new musicians were hired. I think the closest we will hear from Axl's original vision (I hate this word, in this context) are the Rio 3 versions.

Exactly -- he's sort of circled back and added in a Use Your Illusion 3 element to Chinese Democracy. CD has probably morphed several times over since the late 90's.

14 hours ago, Gibson_Guy87 said:

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Honestly, he could've done like one or two experimental songs in '94/'95 and just let Slash/Duff/Matt handle the rest of the album. 

Yeah, he just overreached big time. Didn't Duff mention once what a fickle guy Axl is? I can imagine him going to a Chili Peppers show and then saying the next day that they should try to bring in Flea for a song. 

Edited by RONIN
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1 minute ago, ZoSoRose said:

You saw a thread with people saying things about Axl you don't like. Great, that's cool. You can respond however you want... but you come out questioning how people can be fans, then proceed to insult other artists. Do you not see why that is hypocritical and why that may ruffle a few feathers?

Again, we don't need the "IS CHINESE DEMOCRACY A TRUE GNR ALBUM?" talk. You've been around a while. It doesn't matter what it "factually" is or if you or if someone else here doesn't view it as a GNR album. I am saying, who cares anymore? It is exhausting rereading the same argument over and over again. One poster (who appears to be a noob account, anyways) brought it up, why respond to everyone who claims it isn't a GNR album?

So in sum, you're cool with people here on a gnr site calling Axl a poseur, but I can't call other artists poseurs? 

There are actually a couple people who brought it up. And again, I was providing a counterpoint. Manson did rely on shock to sell his music. Metallica did specifically cater their image and sound and attitude toward alternative music. And I don't believe it was because they all just woke up one day and decided they loved alt rock. That's my definition of poseurs. But I still like Load and Reload like I already said. As for Cobain, calling him a poseur is more generous than calling him a fake. Cause that's how I view him. I was a huge Nirvana fan as a kid, but come on. He sold his brand of angst and anti-establishment rebellion and we ate it up. They weren't even the biggest band of their own genre (not that that dictates talent). 

I didn't question how people can be fans. 

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1 minute ago, GnR Chris said:

So in sum, you're cool with people here on a gnr site calling Axl a poseur, but I can't call other artists poseurs? 

There are actually a couple people who brought it up. And again, I was providing a counterpoint. Manson did rely on shock to sell his music. Metallica did specifically cater their image and sound and attitude toward alternative music. And I don't believe it was because they all just woke up one day and decided they loved alt rock. That's my definition of poseurs. But I still like Load and Reload like I already said. As for Cobain, calling him a poseur is more generous than calling him a fake. Cause that's how I view him. I was a huge Nirvana fan as a kid, but come on. He sold his brand of angst and anti-establishment rebellion and we ate it up. They weren't even the biggest band of their own genre (not that that dictates talent). 

I didn't question how people can be fans. 

You did actually question how certain people could be fans- "Wow. I can't believe some of you claim to be fans of the band." You came out guns swinging with that statement and proceeded to trash other artists while defending Axl. You have every right to do so, but don't expect everyone to be on board with that.

I'm not necessarily cool with people calling Axl a poser, I just don't really care. Personally, I don't think he was a poser during the UYI era, his weird outfits and musical direction at the time weren't really following trends. For better or worse, he seemed like he wanted to do his own thing. Even when he seemed to want to do the whole NIN style thing, it seemed to be because he liked that and not because it would sell more records. If anything, I think he was more of a "poser" (stupid term, anyways) when he went in autopilot mode and relied on nostalgia to tour even without most of the original lineup in 2011-2014 (For the record, I still enjoyed the shows during that time).

 

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17 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

You did actually question how certain people could be fans- "Wow. I can't believe some of you claim to be fans of the band." You came out guns swinging with that statement and proceeded to trash other artists while defending Axl. You have every right to do so, but don't expect everyone to be on board with that.

I'm not necessarily cool with people calling Axl a poser, I just don't really care. Personally, I don't think he was a poser during the UYI era, his weird outfits and musical direction at the time weren't really following trends. For better or worse, he seemed like he wanted to do his own thing. Even when he seemed to want to do the whole NIN style thing, it seemed to be because he liked that and not because it would sell more records. If anything, I think he was more of a "poser" (stupid term, anyways) when he went in autopilot mode and relied on nostalgia to tour even without most of the original lineup in 2011-2014 (For the record, I still enjoyed the shows during that time).

 

Touche on your first point. 

I guess I'll say that was me more shocked at the vitriol from a fan site. But not trying to tell someone how to be a fan per se. 

 

And I agree with you. He didn't follow trends during the uyi era so much as march to the beat of his own drum. You'd have a better case calling them poseurs for modeling their looks after Hanoi Rocks in the early years, but they never hid their influences anyhow. 

The easier thing to do would have been to make another AfD. Or Slash-inspired Snakepit style record. Or to not continue gnr without Slash and Duff.

Also agree with you that wanting Grohl-sounding drums or to write with Reznor was more about Axl exploring other styles  he was into. Just because there were all these people saying he was into NIN or Nirvana doesn't mean he intended to release a record that was a radical departure from AfD or UYI. And Chinese really wasn't. But stuff like Silkworms and OMG is. GNR were always prolific writers. Shit, "Back off Bitch" I think dates back to the mid 80s. Same with "Don't Cry."

The early "Chinese Democracy" demo, to me, that sounds like a gnr version of "grunge" music and it's badass. And as someone posted here a couple weeks ago, that could have and probably did start as a Slash intro riff to Jungle. Pretty cool. 

Edited by GnR Chris
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12 hours ago, tremolo said:

I say fuck the fans.

Art is by essence pure self-indulgence.

Bowie did it himself, he killed and recreated himself over and over, and never went back. BUT Bowie wasn't trying to ride the trends of the time, he was just moving into something else just because his own creativity was taking him to different places. I think Axl just wanted to follow the trend to remain relevant.

Again, fuck the fans. I think if Axl had succeeded in changing styles, he would have found the right crowds, but it seems that the problems were:

- His motivations (remaining relevant by whoring himself out to the trends of the time)

- Him being part of a band, and the rest of the band not wanting to change styles, as opposed to Bowie who was a one-man show.


I think it was a mix of both things that fucked it all up in terms of musical direction.

 

I still think an Axl album with Dave Navarro produced by Trent Reznor would have been absolutely incredible, and it could have attracted a new breed of fans.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About Manson, I have to agree with him. If you're gonna talk shit, be a fucking man and stand by your own words and fight the fight; or acknowledge your fuck up and be a man. Axl didn't do either, he did something controversial and then he looked like a pussy trying to justify himself, blaming everyone who misunderstood what he meant. I don't think he was a pussy and that his crazy behaviour was just a pose. I think he was just too crazy and volatile to make sense to anyone.

 

Everything else (the videos, the late starts, the AXL Converse, etc) was just a big ego ride, and virtually every fucking famous musician has done it, so I don't think it's relevant at all.

 

Nailed it. I never understood the need from some GnR critics/casual fans to trash UYI because they didn't get a carbon copy of Appetite for the next album. Sure, giving the fans what they want is an admirable thing, but how long can you keep rehashing yourself before it gets old? It seems to me like Slash and Izzy were fine with that for the most part but not Axl and Duff. All of these guys have to chase their muse and as fans, we either go along for the ride or jump ship (as many fans did with UYI).

The Bowie comparison you and Wagzilla made is right on the money. Exactly. Unlike Bowie though, he seemed to be very much concerned with the increasing irrelevance of GnR at the time and the trends of the day. To be fair though, I'm sure the commercial considerations were weighing heavily on him from the record company execs whispering in his ear constantly.

UYI is a much more authentic Axl album imho -- he chased his muse of doing Queen/Elton John, hardly what was trendy or popular at the time. 

Remember this gem? I can imagine Axl having a huge chip on his shoulder from not getting any respect from his peers at the time.

One of Axl's minders has told Patton that Axl really likes Mr. Bungle. The minder says Axl wants to get into something heavier, more industrial. "Industrial," laughs Patton maniacally, banging the table. "That's sick!" 

They have sampled Axl's voice and used it a few times in their stage act, but no one seems to notice. GNR don't watch their shows. Patton thinks they may sometimes watch them over the monitors from their backstage area, but he's not sure. "I think watching us might get in the way of snorting coke from some strippers snatch," Pattons says laughing....

In the restaurant, Patton shares a secret. Axl has TV screens on stage that display the song words in case he forgets them. On the last night of the tour, Mike Patton tells me he wants "to take a shit right on top of those TV screens, in front of tens of thousands of people." 

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=26724.0;wap2

10 hours ago, Stoymatic said:

so, when axl decided he wanted to use guns as his solo record, he thought he could make the other guys in the band play the stuff he wanted them to play, correct? I have always been very interested in this topic. does axl just say" hey, here is how guns is going to sound from this point moving forward" and totally disregard any other band members imput? there has to be a topic somewhere in this forum covering this, does anyone have a link? 

Chinese Whispers documents this in bits and pieces, but yeah essentially, it does seem like Axl laid out his plans for the next record and Slash drew a line in the sand that he wanted the band to go back to their AFD roots. Duff took Axl's side and Slash decided to form Snakepit. I think Snakepit actually drove the first major wedge into the band because Slash basically called Axl's bluff and went solo.

By the time he got back, Doug Goldstein had filled Axl's head with nonsense about forming a new partnership and demoting the rest of the band to employees. So from there, Axl was delaying the record until everybody signed on to the new Guns N Roses contract which Slash ultimately chose not to do. Axl briefly mentions this as the 2 year "trial" period in those Dexter chats. 

They may have gotten through it had Slash not left to do Snakepit and Axl had not made the tragic mistake of trying to demote the band members to employees in his new band. I think for all intents and purposes though, the band broke up in '95. It also seems that somewhere in the midst of all this chaos, Izzy nearly made it back into the band lineup. How differently things could have turned out, had that happened.

 

"[Izzy]'s been writing; he wrote some stuff with Duff. He wants to write songs, but he doesn't wanna deal with the whole thing... He's so laid back. He doesn't want to deal any pressure... Izzy's Izzy." (Slash, Metal Hammer, 11/95)

"Izzy agrees with writing stuff but he's not interested in touring... He doesn't want to deal with Axl." (Slash, Sao Paulo Journal, 07/21/95)

9 hours ago, maynard said:

He doesn't give a shit about who he is but has a thin skin? That doesn't make sense!

He gives a lot of shit about what people are thinking IMO. He has a thin skin IMO.

And that sucks because he's talented and should release more music but he's afraid of people's reaction. And his music shouldn't use layers and layers to hide his insecurity.

Exactly. Why else would he have disappeared for half a decade without any music? He blames Slash, Duff and Stephanie Seymour for that but I think the rejection from his peers like Cobain, Reznor, Patton -- people he admired - stung a lot deeper.

8 hours ago, coolranchdressing! said:

exactly, M Manson is "shtick"...a characature/an act...could that be a phony/poser?...

Axl was real...flawed...yes he wasn't certain in his convictions...he said what he meant at the time (e.g. OIM) and then maybe regretted it/didn't want to be seen as a bad guy/handlers told him to make nice.

Why did he include Manson's song at the end of TSI?...sure he wanted to raise controversy...just like most pop figures back then (Madonna, Prince, hell even Nirvana who were anti-establishment...their videos/album covers were controversial at the time)...

That would be the definition of what a poser is. Drumming up fake controversy to be relevant or edgy and that's what Manson is pointing out. Rose did not have the conviction of defending his decisions and standing by them but blamed others for misunderstanding him or walking back his original thoughts. I think he thought Manson was cool and that's the reason he wore those stupid Charlie don't surf shirts on the UYI tour. He should have owned it rather than claiming that he didn't know "look at your game girl" was a Manson song. 

AR prior to this didn't need to do this kind of shit to be edgy. Appetite Axl seems to be a way more confident and self assured guy than Illusions Axl.

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