Was Axl a Poser during UYI Era?

[RONIN]

31 minutes ago, GnR Chris said:

So in sum, you're cool with people here on a gnr site calling Axl a poseur, but I can't call other artists poseurs? 

There are actually a couple people who brought it up. And again, I was providing a counterpoint. Manson did rely on shock to sell his music. Metallica did specifically cater their image and sound and attitude toward alternative music. And I don't believe it was because they all just woke up one day and decided they loved alt rock. That's my definition of poseurs. But I still like Load and Reload like I already said. As for Cobain, calling him a poseur is more generous than calling him a fake. Cause that's how I view him. I was a huge Nirvana fan as a kid, but come on. He sold his brand of angst and anti-establishment rebellion and we ate it up. They weren't even the biggest band of their own genre (not that that dictates talent). 

I didn't question how people can be fans. 

All of these acts are hypocrites as you've rightfully pointed out, but Axl had a bigger target on his back as the biggest rockstar of his era. He also did not adapt well to the changing scene of the time. U2 did a much better job of transitioning through that era than Guns. I don't recall Cobain going after Hetfield or Bono like he did with Axl. 

[sanity_lost]

36 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Even if they had gotten over that hurdle and found a way to move the GnR sound forward, like you said, it seems like Axl had some serious hubris and wanted to prove he could do what his peers like Patton, Cobain, Reznor, etc were doing and way overreaching beyond his abilities. Maybe he wanted his indie cred back -- maybe he wanted to be accepted as an artist like the rest of these bands...who knows, but his direction for the band doesn't seem authentic to me in hindsight.

I don't think it was contrived. I think Axl was kind of like a collector. He heard bits and pieces in music he liked then immediately wanted to incorporated it into his sound.

 

Quote

It wouldn't have worked for the simple reason that Guns N Roses means different things to all the members of the band clearly. For Slash, GnR is defined by Paradise City. Doubt Axl or even Duff would agree with that, let alone Izzy. 

I agree with this. I was trying to find a specific Axl quote and listened to part of a phone interview from '87. My god Axl was dedicated to his art. In hindsight you could see why this was not going to work out in the long term. Axl was about no compromise. The only way I could possibly see the band not falling apart was if they had stayed close when they were touring Appetite and Axl didn't drift away from the rest of the band and started chasing rabbits while they drugged themselves stupid. Even then it is questionable, but at least they'd have a chance to influence him to look in a direction they found more palatable.

 

[ZoSoRose]

18 minutes ago, GnR Chris said:

Touche on your first point. 

I guess I'll say that was me more shocked at the vitriol from a fan site. But not trying to tell someone how to be a fan per se. 

 

And I agree with you. He didn't follow trends during the uyi era so much as march to the beat of his own drum. You'd have a better case calling them poseurs for modeling their looks after Hanoi Rocks in the early years, but they never hid their influences anyhow. 

The easier thing to do would been to make another AfD. Or Slash-inspired Snakepit style record. Or to not to continue gnr without Slash and Duff.

Also agree with you that wanting Grohl-sounding drums or to write with Reznor was more about Axl exploring other styles  he was into. Just because there were all these people saying he was into NIN or Nirvana doesn't mean he intended to release a record that was a radical departure from AfD or UYI. And Chinese really wasn't. But stuff like Silkworms and OMG is.

The early Chinese Democracy demo, to me, that sounds like a gnr version of "grunge" music and it's badass. And as someone posted here a couple weeks ago, that could have and probably did start as a Slash intro riff to Jungle. Pretty cool. 

I don't even think this place is really negative. I've been posting here almost a decade now, and think this place is the most positive its been GNR-wise. You have a ton of different posters with all sorts of silly threads like this one, so lots of different opinions come up. Axl in particular is a controversial figure, so its bound to happen you know? That's what makes this place fun, though. 

 I respect Axl for wanting to branch out, and personally, I adore Chinese Democracy, but I do understand why the record and the path to get to it brings out a lot of negativity in the fan base. Axl wanted to branch out into further strange territory after UYI. I don't think that is a secret. Again, I don't think that makes him a "poser", its just what he was into. However, being in a band is all about compromising. It sucks Axl and Slash in particular couldn't find a middle ground during the making of that scrapped record. I do believe Axl was a control freak... almost everyone that works with him seems to give this impression. Its why his bands post-breakup all seemed to be more like revolving doors of backing musicians as opposed to a "living, breathing" band. Slash also seemed to have trouble compromising, and seemed stubborn and disinterested in what was going on. I don't blame him, I don't know what it was like behind the scenes or what really went down. I do know that being in a band means you HAVE to compromise with one another. You can't go off in crazy directions if the others aren't on board and vice versa. It just sucks they all couldn't stay together and get past the bullshit they were creating. We lost a lot of good years.

As with Chinese, I actually disagree and think it is a huge departure from AfD and UYI. There are a few songs I could see sort of being on a UYI style album in ballad form (like Street of Dreams, TiL, and Catcher) but the rest is very far removed from what AfD, Lies, and UYI were. GNR was mainly a riffy hard rock band. With the exception of the title track on Chinese (as you mentioned, I could see Slash coming up with that and he sort of inadvertently did it seems), none of the songs really rely on a hook or a riff. The guitar work is still great, but it is a huge departure from the classic stuff. I don't think an album like that would have ever really formed coherently with both Axl and Slash making it from scratch. To bring it back on topic, I don't think it being so different makes Axl a "poser", it didn't really follow any trends. I guess some of the rockers on it like Shackler's were idustrialy, but that seems like it is because Axl was legit into that sort of thing at the time and took subtle elements from those genres.

Edited March 14, 2017 by ZoSoRose

[RONIN]

4 hours ago, Tadsy said:

This thread seems to have evolved into a few different arguments 

back on the poser topic, Manson never even gave a proper argument for his poser comment. 

As someone else said, most celebrities are posers in the general term, but Manson obviously used the term in a negative way and then didn't really put forward an argument for it. 

I mean, singling Axl out is pretty fucking lame considering at that time there was a lot of people that he could have aimed that barb at? So why Axl? 

It's a bit like Patton randomly taking shots at Axl last year or Gene bringing Axl up randomly for no reason, it makes no sense, it's not like Axl is out there in the podcasts every Tuesday talking shit about these people? 

As I said, there's plenty of things you could aim at Axl, but poser or talking shit about doing an Axl Rose is pretty average, some celebrities seem quite butt hurt over Axl even to this day. 

These people talk a lot of shit based on what? One 10 minute interaction with the guy? 

Well Manson's argument is simply that AR did not have the conviction to stand by his beliefs, whatever they may be.  That and, in his opinion, the Charles Manson thing is basically Axl's way of staying relevant and edgy in a time when he's increasingly seen as someone lacking authenticity and street cred.

Someone here previously said that it could be just a lot of these acts being jealous of the insane success of Guns and Axl, acts who might have viewed Guns as lacking the artistic cred they had. Certainly in Cobain's case, that seems like a plausible argument...but James Hetfield? That's a harder sell.

 

[Underhardy]

21 hours ago, DR DOOM said:

Well, he did seem to be very interested in "keeping up with the Jones" so to speak- he wanted Guns N Roses to become Nine Inch Nails, and then possibly Limp Bizkit as well.

I dunno, watch the video clip to Estranged and ask yourself if Axl is a poser

All that his said was "Limp Bizkit is cool/fun" jokingly. Far from going in that direction 

[RONIN]

1 hour ago, GnR Chris said:

Touche on your first point. 

I guess I'll say that was me more shocked at the vitriol from a fan site. But not trying to tell someone how to be a fan per se. 

 

And I agree with you. He didn't follow trends during the uyi era so much as march to the beat of his own drum. You'd have a better case calling them poseurs for modeling their looks after Hanoi Rocks in the early years, but they never hid their influences anyhow. 

The easier thing to do would have been to make another AfD. Or Slash-inspired Snakepit style record. Or to not continue gnr without Slash and Duff.

Also agree with you that wanting Grohl-sounding drums or to write with Reznor was more about Axl exploring other styles  he was into. Just because there were all these people saying he was into NIN or Nirvana doesn't mean he intended to release a record that was a radical departure from AfD or UYI. And Chinese really wasn't. But stuff like Silkworms and OMG is. GNR were always prolific writers. Shit, "Back off Bitch" I think dates back to the mid 80s. Same with "Don't Cry."

The early "Chinese Democracy" demo, to me, that sounds like a gnr version of "grunge" music and it's badass. And as someone posted here a couple weeks ago, that could have and probably did start as a Slash intro riff to Jungle. Pretty cool. 

I intended this thread more as a way of understanding the perception of Axl by GnR fans who were around during the UYI period. Good or bad.

Being into something is one thing, following trends is another thing entirely. You have people in the band like Gilby saying Axl wanted to overhaul the sound of the band significantly - their next release was OMG, which was a radical departure from UYI. Duff and Matt refused to work on Oh My God even though Duff supported Axl in rejecting the snakepit stuff. Clearly he went way further than Duff felt comfortable with.

Had he cut a full industrial solo album, that would have been the most obvious way of doing his thing without sabotaging the band and remaining true to himself. There were also other things going on at the time - Axl was deeply into technology (pro-tools) and wanted to get deeper into layering his music and tinkering about in the studio...things that nobody else in the band aside from Matt were into. That was another major issue. Duff and Slash fought him on the synth stuff in UYI -- no way would pro-tooling the shit out of the next record have been an easy sell to these guys.

The comparisons a few others have drawn between Bowie and Axl are right on the money here imho. There is also this:

"The perception I have of what Axl's doing at the moment is that he's basically making a solo album but retaining the GN'R name so that he can get at the major contractual advance that's waiting at Geffen for a new Guns N' Roses-titled record. I can't give you the exact figure but I will tell you it's in the multi-million-dollar range. This renegotiation was effected just before I was fired." (Alan Niven, Icon Magazine, 10/97)

"GN'R began work on a new album of original material, drawing from a Geffen advance thought to be around $10 million - Madonna kind of money." (Rolling Stone, 05/11/00)

Axl: "The heart and commitment these guys play the material with is much more than the others were prepared to give pursuing their own interests for a very long time. The music changed after Slash and I parted so the direction was where I took GUNS not where I had intended or tried to go previously. It had a lot to do with not finding or knowing a more blues based player that I found inspiring and I was really knocked down and beat up. Slash, Duff and Matt's [Sorum] decisions had as much to do with kicking a guy when he's down or abandoning ship at the time as anything else. Other things were going on with music as well, we were basically dead at Geffen. I liked other things as well so I wanted to explore, be legitimate and survive. I wasn't doing what was written so often about chasing fads etc. Jesus, I wouldn't have agreed for Zakk [Wylde] to come down if any of Slash's or the media's nonsense were real. And that could've worked on some level but like GUNS it would've been up to those two and their relationship. They talk nice but it wasn't pretty… but it was pretty awesome!!"
 

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/axl-rose-why-i-am-continung-to-use-name-guns-n-roses/#jhJGSgLwEWoRgp1M.99

Edited March 14, 2017 by RONIN

[GnR Chris]

@ZoSoRose, I feel ya on CD lacking the more blues-enthused style Izzy and Slash brought, so I should say CD isn't a radical departure when looked at as "steps" or an evolution or however you want to phrase it. AfD is way different than CD but Illusions are kinda like the link that bridges them. Or if you look at gnr as a sum of its parts, CD sounds justifiably Finck/Bucket whereas anything with Slash retains the blues Stones or Aerosmith style riffing. 

But for me CD still retained the gnr-style ballads and rockers.

Still featured great and memorable guitar solos (twat),  vintage Axl screams (better, twat), and wonderful codas (sod, catcher, twat, cd). 

I'm hoping the next record with Slash and Duff on it returns the blues-enthused unmistakable guitar tone and Duff's punk rock edge and backing vocals. 

I wonder which two or three CD songs Axl had in mind way back when, when he mentioned the possibility of Slash coming in and laying guitar down on. Now with the live shows you're seeing the influence Duff and Slash could have had. "Better" sounds different, right?

Edited March 14, 2017 by GnR Chris

[ZoSoRose]

Just now, GnR Chris said:

@ZoSoRose, I feel ya on CD lacking the more blues-enthused style Izzy and Slash brought, so I should say CD isn't a radical departure when looked at as "steps" or an evolution or however you want to phrase it. AfD is way different than CD but Illusions are kinda like the link that bridges them. Or if you look at gnr as a sum of its parts, CD sounds justifiably Finck/Bucket whereas anything with Slash retains the blues Stones or Aerosmith style riffing. 

But for me CD still retained the gnr-style ballads and rockers.

Still featured great and memorable guitar solos (twat),  vintage Axl screams (better, twat), and wonderful codas (sod, catcher, twat, cd). 

I'm hoping the next record with Slash and Duff on it returns the blues-enthused unmistakable guitar tone and Duff's punk rock edge and backing vocals. 

I guess aside from a few of the more ballad line songs, I don't see it as an evolution of GNR music. Doesn't make me like the music less, its just too different for me to put it in a similar mental category as UYI

I still really want to hear the CD leftovers in some form. I dont care if the Bucket/Finck versions leak or if they are officially released with Slash and Duff on them, I just want to hear them. Take the best of those and a few Slashy bluesy hard rocky tunes and I'd be a happy camper. Being posers or trend setters be dammed, I just hope they put something out

[Apollo]

It's funny how some people forget where Axl came from. And who he was. A high school dropout, who did lots of drugs and drinking, got in lots of fights, and was a criminal who was always in trouble with the police.....having a hit rock album doesn't magically change that person into Rhodes Scholar or Mensa member. 

Axl is who he is. And who he has always been. Poser - doubtful. 

*****

And lol that Metallica are posers for cutting their hair and buying nice clothes. Meanwhile, Axl has cut his hair and literally hired a personal fashion consultant who picks his wardrobe for him......the way some posters hold other artists to different standards than they do Axl is funny. And a bit odd. 

[wasted]

I think though what people were calling Axl a poser for was changing from the guy who did drugs/drinking and fighting to a guy who wanted control over the business side, who was in therapy, making these big statements, stopping shows, doing big arty pretentious videos, dating supermodels.  Their hero had gone and this new genius type of guy making millions was in his place. So maybe that Axl struggled to live up to this new sophisticated image he presented is why people called him a poser? 

Or did he pull it off and people were just jealous. They don't want Axl to be talented or smart enough to be able to write or make music in various genres. How dare you leave our club to make Elton John songs or Industrial rock. 

To me he wasn't on the street anymore so couldn't write dirty rock n roll songs anymore. There was a lyrical progression even story to flows through UYI to CD. 

I don't get the poser thing really. It just seems a negative trap to fall into which ultimately limits you. If you don't conform you're a poser. 

[Tadsy]

6 hours ago, GnR Chris said:

It's  not an opinion. It's a fact. It's gnr. I brought it up in response to others in this thread. 

 

You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. 

 

GNR truth might be a better board for you mate ? kidding

edit, great thread ronin, some interesting quotes posted and everyone here has made some valid points no matter which side of the argument/topic you sit on. 

As with everything GNR, nothing is ever straight forward and easy to decipher. 

The topic itself highlights what we know of Axl, and that is he was/is a complex person and a deep thinker. 

And I think at a basic level his intentions were probably the right ones, but maybe with hindsight not to be taken as far left of field as he wanted??? Or perhaps both sides could have compromised? Unfortunately that didn't happen. 

One last thought? And I'm sure some will disagree, but every quote I've ever seen when Mike Patton is talking about Axl or GNR he comes across as a severe butt hurt little bitch. 

Its almost obsessive, OTT, and comes across as a massive try hard douche. 

Just my 2cents of course. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Tadsy

[BOSSY78]

I don't see him as a poser. In fact rather many like it or not or disagree many of the ballads or UYI songs are some of the most popular songs. 

As far as how he dressed I see him as following his own style just as he still does today. It's actually why I get a good laugh at all the threads discussing his wardrobe. It's funny to me that we try to instill into our children etc or we try to express ourselves yet some still bash peoples clothing choices. I have no issue if someone doesn't like his choice of clothing because he may not like theirs either, it's what makes us human and individuals. I just don't comment too much in the Axl's hats thread. There are many who like his clothing choices as well. I personally don't care if he walks out naked lol, I've always loved his sense of style even if it is his own lol. To each their own though for those who don't.

As far as Manson's comments I believe he said them because he was going to cover their song. To me it was like he wanted to act like he was only covering it so he can show Axl how to own it but I feel he really liked it and was making an excuse to avoid backlash.

I don't think his UYI recordings made him a poser. Those CDs are just as much GnR as AFD. 

Ironically Slash never liked many of the songs that became popular like SCOM yet take a listen to Fall To Pieces, we could have a poser conversation about that before we could Axl being one.

I'm not saying Slash is a poser just saying more evidence there than Axl.

To me Axl is the music genius. His ballads were always GnR just as much as Slash's riffs. 

To those who hated CD before but like it now just because Slash is on it lol. I mean I get it but so many claimed it was nowhere near a GnR record yet it is. What an unfair shake many gave Axl on CD too. Some genuinely don't like it and that's fine too, to each their own

Edited March 14, 2017 by BOSSY78
Added

[Blackstar]

5 hours ago, sanity_lost said:

I don't think it was contrived. I think Axl was kind of like a collector. He heard bits and pieces in music he liked then immediately wanted to incorporated it into his sound.

 

I agree with this. I was trying to find a specific Axl quote and listened to part of a phone interview from '87. My god Axl was dedicated to his art. In hindsight you could see why this was not going to work out in the long term. Axl was about no compromise. The only way I could possibly see the band not falling apart was if they had stayed close when they were touring Appetite and Axl didn't drift away from the rest of the band and started chasing rabbits while they drugged themselves stupid. Even then it is questionable, but at least they'd have a chance to influence him to look in a direction they found more palatable.

 

Yes, I had in mind this exact 1987 interview when I said that it was important to him to be acknowledged as an artist all along. He even had predicted his future in a way in that interview.

[PatrickS77]

1 hour ago, Tadsy said:

One last thought? And I'm sure some will disagree, but every quote I've ever seen when Mike Patton is talking about Axl or GNR he comes across as a severe butt hurt little bitch. 

Its almost obsessive, OTT, and comes across as a massive try hard douche. 

No. You're not the only one. Had the same thought. I agree. And it's not just him, also the others in the band. And I'm a FNM fan, became one during that '92 tour. If they really thought that Axl was such a silly person, they should have just declined touring with him, instead of riding his coattail, while bitching about him, fantasizing on shitting on his stuff (how juvenile do you have to get?). Lost a bit of respect for them.

[maynard]

12 hours ago, GnR Chris said:

Wow. I can't believe some of you claim to be fans of the band. 

There's objectivity and there's complete bullshit. 

Axl has sounded good during this tour. Chinese Democracy is a Guns N' Roses record. And following your own vision rather than selling out or doing what's safe isn't being a poseur. Being a poseur is Metallica cutting their hair and wearing suits and making an alternative record. Being a poseur is a guy naming himself Marilyn Manson and using shock to sell his music. Being a poseur is talking shit about  the biggest band in the world, calling them corporate rock while you write pop songs and pose for corporate rock magazines, all while playing acoustic shows for MTV and granting interviews to any media personnel who will listen to you complain about how much you don't want to be a rock star.

Someone here said Axl should have written a couple songs and let the rest of the band handle the rest. Duff and Axl were on the same side of the fence in that time period, both opposing the songs and sound Slash wrote with Clarke and Sorum. How the fuck do people consider Chinese a solo project but a record written by Slash, Sorum and Clarke would have been GNR?

They all had a hand in the disintigation of the AfD lineup/Illusions lineup. Adler was/is a fuckup. Izzy was disinterested. Duff was getting sober and starting a family. Slash and Axl were stuck in a power play over the direction of the band.

I am a fan.

Axl sounds like shit currently and has been sounding like shit since 2011. Chinese Democracy is a record done by Axl Rose and hired musicians. He decided to name it Guns n' Rose because he owns the name. Just like Trent Reznor calls his solo project NIN, Axl called his solo project GNR. Axl didn't really follow a vision. He wanted GNR to sound like PJ, Nirvana, NIN, Moby, all at the same time because he wanted to sound cool to the 90s kids. Nobody wanted a GNR record with only Slash songs, people wanted collaboration from all of them, like a real band. Not a dictatorship which was Axl's wish.

11 hours ago, GnR Chris said:

 

No. Bullshit is saying Axl sounds bad during this tour. He doesn't. 

 

Or that  he was chasing trends just because he wanted to incorporate certain styles into his music. 

Or that Chinese Democraxy isn't Guns N' Roses.

 

AXL SOUNDS BAD DURING THIS TOUR. HE HAS BEEN SOUNDING BAD SINCE 2011 WITH VERY VERY FEW MOMENTS OF VINTAGE AXL HERE AND THERE

HE WAS CHASING TRENDS IN THE 90s. HE WANTED GNR TO COMPLETELY ABANDON THEIR STYLE AND SOUND LIKE THE 90s BANDS

CHINESE DEMOCRACY IS NOT FROM THE BAND GUNS N ROSES. IT SAYS GUNS N ROSES IN THE COVER BECAUSE AXL OWNS THE NAME AND DECIDED TO USE IT FOR COMMERCIAL REASONS

[EvanG]

9 hours ago, RONIN said:

 

Or advance the sound but do it in a way that feels organic and real. Some people feel they overreached with UYI, but had they perhaps held off on November Rain and the other "epics" for a future release -- that may have been a smoother transition.

I'm glad Axl and Duff wanted to do something different from the "southern rock" album that Slash wanted, but why not just go more in a Pearl Jam and Soundgarden direction than just doing a 180 and trying to be Trent Reznor? That's where he lost Duff. Oh my God is a quantum leap away from what Guns was. I love that song but it should have either been an Axl solo song or 2 albums post-UYI2. 

 

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's up to artists to do whatevery they want. Even if that doesn't please their fanbase. It's better to follow your heart and be true to yourself as an artist, then only change a few things in your music just to please your fans and to not scare too many people away. Then you're just a phony.

There are bands and artists who changed completely in sound from one album to the other, to a point where I don't even like them anymore, but I still respect them for being true to themselves and not worrying about losing most of their fanbase with the new sound.

Edited March 14, 2017 by EvanG

[Derick]

12 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's up to artists to do whatevery they want. Even if that doesn't please their fanbase. It's better to follow your heart and be true to yourself as an artist, then only change a few things in your music just to please your fans and to not scare too many people away. Then you're just a phony.

There are bands and artists who changed completely in sound from one album to the other, to a point where I don't even like them anymore, but I still respect them for being true to themselves and not not worrying about losing most of their fanbase with the new sound.

I absolutely agree with you.

[EvanG]

1 hour ago, tremolo said:

 

I would set Cobain apart from that gang. Nirvana didn't move into the mainstream, they never made an album following a trend or tried to become a mainstream act; it was the mainstream that moved to Nirvana (Nevermind).

Cobain was a true complete artist, and that went way beyond his music. His paintings, collages and drawings portray his demons, the hell, depression and addiction he was going through, and I think the reason he focused more and more on painting instead of music was because it was still a creative outlet for him without any of the bullshit that came with the music industry.

Yeah, he signed to DGC, he probably even wanted to be famous, but he clearly didn't like what came with it and hated the whole rockstar crap. His success was reaching millions with his music (which wouldn't have happened –at least not in the same way) if he had remained in the indie scene. It's interesting to watch/read interviews of the time about not wanting to be a big band anymore, not being happy with the crowds they got and the fond memories of the old small punk rock shows they used to play.

I guess you need a big ego to ride the wave, and his ego wasn't big enough to buy into the whole superstar bullshit. Or maybe it just wasn't as big as his fears and demons.

 

Kurt Cobain was the most contradictive person you could imagine. Sometimes he contradicted himself in the same interview. His best friend once said that Kurt wanted to play for 100,000 people yet at the same time felt guilty for wanting that. I think that pat of him wanted to be a rockstar, but when he got what he wanted he didn't want it anymore.

In 1992 and early 1993 he was talking about alienating the audience with their next album, but when the album came out later in the year he did a lot of promotion for it, even going so far as to making a TV commercial for it. He was criticizing Pearl Jam for being sell outs, but Pearl Jam didn't even make a video for their album in 1993, and this in an era when MTV was very important and could make or break you as a band, and they hardly did any press to promote their new album because they were overwhelmed by the fame too just like Nirvana, but at the same time the Nirvana machine was promoting their new album like crazy instead of just taking a step back like Pearl Jam did. I don't know if he was just giving in to the record company or if he really wanted the album to sell well, but again he was contradicting himself.

Edited March 14, 2017 by EvanG

[ZoSoRose]

1 hour ago, maynard said:

I am a fan.

Axl sounds like shit currently and has been sounding like shit since 2011. Chinese Democracy is a record done by Axl Rose and hired musicians. He decided to name it Guns n' Rose because he owns the name. Just like Trent Reznor calls his solo project NIN, Axl called his solo project GNR. Axl didn't really follow a vision. He wanted GNR to sound like PJ, Nirvana, NIN, Moby, all at the same time because he wanted to sound cool to the 90s kids. Nobody wanted a GNR record with only Slash songs, people wanted collaboration from all of them, like a real band. Not a dictatorship which was Axl's wish.

AXL SOUNDS BAD DURING THIS TOUR. HE HAS BEEN SOUNDING BAD SINCE 2011 WITH VERY VERY FEW MOMENTS OF VINTAGE AXL HERE AND THERE

HE WAS CHASING TRENDS IN THE 90s. HE WANTED GNR TO COMPLETELY ABANDON THEIR STYLE AND SOUND LIKE THE 90s BANDS

CHINESE DEMOCRACY IS NOT FROM THE BAND GUNS N ROSES. IT SAYS GUNS N ROSES IN THE COVER BECAUSE AXL OWNS THE NAME AND DECIDED TO USE IT FOR COMMERCIAL REASONS

Nooooo Maynard. No more ChiDem arguments 

[Blackstar]

7 hours ago, tremolo said:

Cobain/Axl: Cobain hated heavy metal, hard rock and the whole macho/womanizer puerile joke (think Motley Crue) that came with it. At the time that was Axl Rose. Rose created a persona back circa AFD, he presented that to the press to create controversy and get some attention for the band. Funny thing is that it was unnecessary and it backfired on him. The stupid thing is that had he been his normal self, the way you see him doing some interviews, chill, laid-back, cool, fun and easy to talk to, people wouldn't have developed the antibodies and rejectiom towards his persona (the caricature he created).

Not sure it was a persona. I think it was a real aspect of him, given his background in Indiana and his days on the street in LA. He gradually changed his view and stance on some things to a degree; but at the same time, as he became rich and famous, his street rocker side (with its goods and its bads) faded  and couldn't or didn't want to fake it; and then maybe he saw being a rockstar as a "natural" development.

7 hours ago, EvanG said:

Kurt Cobain was the most contradictive person you could imagine. Sometimes he contradicted himself in the same interview. His best friends once said that Kurt wanted to play for 100,000 people yet at the same time felt guilty for wanting that. I think that pat of him wanted to be a rockstar, but when he got what he wanted he didn't want it anymore.

In 1993 he was talking about alienating the audience with their new album, but at the same time he did a lot of promotion for the album even going so far as to making a TV commercial for it. He was criticizing Pearl Jam for being sell outs, but Pearl Jam didn't even make a video for their album in 1993 in an era when MTV was very important and they hardly did any press to promote their album while the Nirvana machine was promoting the new album like crazy. I don't know if he was just giving in to the record company or if he really wanted the album to sell well, but again he was contradicting himself.

I agree about Kurt Cobain. I think Axl was/is equally contradictive in his own way. For example, he cared about being an artist and being acknowledged as such, but then there was all that typical rockstar/diva behaviour, the trilogy videos etc.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Blackstar
added

[maynard]

24 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Nooooo Maynard. No more ChiDem arguments 

The poser thing is just as boring

I mean, all rock musicians are posers. And everyone past the age of 15 should NOT really care about who is a poser and what rock musicians say about each other.

This is not the case with Axl fans. They are at a 'Boyband fan girl' level of retardness.

It's just... How can anyone who has watched any video from 2010 say Axl sounds good in the current tour?

Or that an album recorded by Axl and a bunch of hired musicians is a Guns N' Roses album, like AFD and UYI were?

A NIN album has NINE INCH NAILS written in its cover but I am aware it's just Trent Reznor and additional musicians he invited/paid to help him to create his album.

CD has GUNS N ROSES written in its cover but I am aware it's just Axl Rose and additional musicians he paid to help him to create his album.

Is Trent a band? No.

Is Axl a band? Apparently it is.

Weird isn't it?

Edited March 14, 2017 by maynard

[ZoSoRose]

10 minutes ago, maynard said:

The poser thing is just as boring

I mean, all rock musicians are posers. And everyone past the age of 15 should NOT really care about who is a poser and what rock musicians say about each other.

This is not the case with Axl fans. They are at a 'Boyband fan girl' level of retardness.

It's just... How can anyone who has watched any video from 2010 say Axl sounds good in the current tour?

Or that an album recorded by Axl and a bunch of hired musicians is a Guns N' Roses album, like AFD and UYI were?

A NIN album has NINE INCH NAILS written in its cover but I am aware it's just Trent Reznor and additional musicians he invited/paid to help him to create his album.

CD has GUNS N ROSES written in its cover but I am aware it's just Axl Rose and additional musicians he paid to help him to create his album.

Is Trent a band? No.

Is Axl a band? Apparently it is.

Weird isn't it?

No one can credibly argue that AfD and CD were made by the same band. They literally share one musician in common. The name argument is a different beast though and one that weve all done a zillion times on here. Thats all Im saying

[GnR Chris]

Cobain will never get a chance at redemption in terms of his hypocritical nature when he was young. He'll always be remembered that way, a walking contradiction. He wanted the fame. He wanted the polished pop rock record in Nevermind. He only pretended to dislike it afterward because he felt guilty for it or because he wanted to maintain some sort of credibility. 

[Ace Nova]

Please.  Marilyn Manson calling anyone a poser is rich.  His entire on stage personality is 100% a front he does as a publicity stunt.  So him calling out anyone as a fraud is absolutely hysterical.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Kasanova King

[EvanG]

4 minutes ago, GnR Chris said:

Cobain will never get a chance at redemption in terms of his hypocritical nature when he was young. He'll always be remembered that way, a walking contradiction. He wanted the fame. He wanted the polished pop rock record in Nevermind. He only pretended to dislike it afterward because he felt guilty for it or because he wanted to maintain some sort of credibility. 

Yeah, and he made In Utero with Steve Albini to make sure it wouldn't sound as commercial as Nevermind, but then afterwards he started complaining about the sound and that he wanted certain songs on it to sound more like Nevermind. I don't care how contradictive he was, I guess my point is that no matter how many books are written about him, no one will ever really know what that guy was really about. Maybe he didn't even know himself.