Mr. Buckethead vs Bumblefoot on Chinese Democracy

[RONIN]

 

So as we know, Axl Rose has a habit of erasing prior musician contributions in favor of the current musician in his revolving lineup. This goes all the way back to Izzy's parts on TSI getting replaced with Gilby.

So the question is, did the quality of chinese democracy suffer by including Bumblefoot in the album? Was it a mistake to replace the genius known as Mr. Buckethead on various parts of CD songs with Bumble? Was the album sullied irreparably by sidelining the contributions of Colonel Sander's friend? There were rumors back in the day that Buckethead submitted a ton of riffs to Axl, many of which were never used or replaced on CD once he left the band.

In my humble opinion, Bumblefoot's playing just strips the magic of the Brian May guitar on the "Catcher in the Rye" demo. It goes from an Illusions worthy classic to a good if unremarkable rock song. If they had to dump the Brian May guitar, I'm sure Bucket would have killed it if given the chance.

Here's another thought -- should Axl have just made CD with Buckethead as his lead guitarist and no Robin Finck? 

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by RONIN

[Gordon Comstock]

I like Ron's parts on the album, I like the album the way it was released, but the album should've just had the '02 line-up on it and the supposed "next albums" should've/would've had Bumble and Frank on them. The demos, except maybe ITW and the '06 leaks of Better, all sound better than what ended up on the album.

 

As far as CITR, I like both solos for different reasons, but I don't really compare them. In general I think the '99 version is way better than the album version but I wish it would leak/get put on a boxset or something in good quality.

[Sosso]

I don't think that Bumblefoots input is that bad but just unnecessary. 

Buckethead and Finck should have been the only lead guitarists. I was only impressed by some of Rons ryhthm guitar parts songs like If The World, Sorry or I.R.S. But I don't really like the fact that he has replaced Bucket's Shackler's Revenge or Brian May's CITR solo.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Sosso

[BreakDown2014]

He's great on Shackler's Revenge, but completely ruins the rest. Finck/Buckethead are in a different league

[Lies They Tell]

I like Bumblefoot's contibutions, especially on Better. Because of him, the robot masturbation part got tuned down, thank god. It's a much better song because of him. I also prefer the CITR album version over the demo version. I didn't vote though, because there's no way I'm gonna say "I wouldn't have it any other way".  Slash on CD would have been the best. A Buckethead album would have been good too, but so was the final product that we got.

[auad]

Bucket. Always.

Most complete guitar player in GNR saga.

[Silent Jay]

This is all over the place. 

I guess people aren't much familiar with rhythmic guitars 'cause Bumblefoot was featured everywhere on ChDm.

• Bumblefoot : 14/14
• Finck 14/14
• Buckethead : 12/14 (Catcher/TIL)
• Tobias: 10/14
• Fortus: 5/14
• Axl: 2/14

His imputs were obviously necessary to the final sound, he brought a lot of dynamics with his riffs and contributions. It's funny because Richard Fortus contributed on only five songs.

The four guitar solos were hit-and-miss for some, I get that, but we can also blame Axl for the copy-paste job. Great job. Shackler and Catcher 2nd. solos absolutely rule, Scraped solo rules, Riad needed Buckethead all right.

 

 

 

[RONIN]

28 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

This is all over the place. 

I guess people aren't much familiar with rhythmic guitars 'cause Bumblefoot was featured everywhere on ChDm.

• Bumblefoot : 14/14
• Finck 14/14
• Buckethead : 12/14 (Catcher/TIL)
• Tobias: 10/14
• Fortus: 5/14
• Axl: 2/14

His imputs were obviously necessary to the final sound, he brought a lot of dynamics with his riffs and contributions. It's funny because Richard Fortus contributed on only five songs.

The four guitar solos were hit-and-miss for some, I get that, but we can also blame Axl for the copy-paste job. Great job. Shackler and Catcher 2nd. solos absolutely rule, Scraped solo rules, Riad needed Buckethead all right.

 

 

 

Did not know he was such a prominent contributor on the rhythm guitars. I guess the question would be then, did Ron improve the final product or did he bring down the quality with his contributions? 

To be fair to Ron, he's mentioned before that he didn't have any time to really dig into the material and come up with anything interesting -- in a way, the GnR camp set him up to fail a bit with his contributions. That being said -- as talented as Bumble is, I just don't see his work as being in the same league as Bucket given what I heard on Chinese Democracy. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by RONIN

[Silent Jay]

9 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Did not know he was such a prominent contributor on the rhythm guitars. I guess the question would be then, did Ron improve the final product or did he bring down the quality with his contributions? 

To be fair to Ron, he's mentioned before that he didn't have any time to really dig into the material and come up with anything interesting -- in a way, the GnR camp set him up to fail a bit with his contributions. That being said -- as talented as Bumble is, I just don't see his work as being in the same league as Bucket given what I heard on Chinese Democracy. 

Then you will have to listen to the Antiquiet demos. It's clearly stripped down and less sophisticated, but that is not what ChDm is.

Well how do you know if the material with Buckethead would have been better? We only had to hear his version on Riad and it still sucked.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Silent Jay

[BorderlineCrazy]

I think Bumblefoot shouldn't have been in the album at all. I like him but I consider Buckethead to be way better than him and when it comes to rhythm guitar, I think Fortus style fit Axl's band better than anybody else's, so he should have taken care of that.

About Robin, I'm glad he was on the album. In my opinion he did a subpar job (at best) playing Slash's material live but he came up with great solos for CD. I'm sure Bucket would have been able to come up with brilliant solos for the whole album by himself but I like what Robin did so I'm glad he was part of CD.

And about that last option in the poll (the 'where's Slash?' one), I think the idea of a GNR album not featuring Slash is beyond ridiculous but I don't think Slash should have been part of it, I think it shouldn't have been released as GNR as the album doesn't sound like GNR AT ALL and not even Slash would be able to change that.

[RONIN]

9 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

Then you will have to listen to the Antiquiet demos. It's clearly stripped down and less sophisticated, but that is not what ChDm is.

Well how do you know if the material with Buckethead would have been better? We only had to hear his version on Riad and it sucked.

I prefer Bucket's feel to GnR material compared to Bumble. The only thing from Bumblefoot that I really enjoyed during his time with GnR was his interpretation of Don't Cry, particularly the instrumental versions he used to do during his solo spot. 

I suppose I'd have to listen to the rhythm guitar layers on CD to assess Bumble's contributions on a whole, but his lead guitar solos didn't do much for me.

Are you team bumble or bucket?

Chinese Democracy is pretty much a cut/paste job from Axl - I've learned to accept that. To my untrained ears, it feels like Bumble was just pasted on top as another layer on the music rather than really integrating him into the songs. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that funding was cut for the project from Interscope and therefore they couldn't use the fancy recording studios anymore for further work...

Edited April 5, 2017 by RONIN

[Silent Jay]

3 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Are you team bumble or bucket?

I like them both. Both are highly qualified for the job. You don't need more further proof of what Bumble brought to the table after the title track ChDm and Revenge. Fretless guitars and shit.

[themadcaplaughs]

I do not think it ended up being as much a "Bumblefoot vs. Buckethead" thing as the original poster makes it out. Outside of "Riad n' the Bedouins," which we do know Bumblefoot replaced, did he really replace anything else? I would not be surprised if Buckethead never got around to recording a proper solo for "Shackelr's Revenge." Bumblefoot's stuff really seemed to be more about adding to the sound. To Ron's credit, I love his solo on "Shackler's Revenge," and actually find that his fretless fill on the title track really fleshed out the song. As for the "Catcher in the Rye" solo, I agree with @Gordon Comstock that the Brain /may and Bumbelfoot solos in "Catcher in the Rye" are too different to compare. From the chats, it was clear Axl perceived that people were not "into" May's solo as much was he would have wanted, so it was going to be replaced no matter what. If it had to be replaced, I think Bumblefoot did a fine job. 

As for Robin, I'm biased as I love Robin in Nine Inch Nails and Guns N' Roses, but I actually liked having him in the band alongside Buckethead. Obviously, the Buckethead and Robin guitar tones were very different than Izzy and Slash, but like Izzy and Slash, they had two very different styles going that somehow work in the context of the album. Buckethead (with the notable exception of his solo in "Sorry"), provides a very "inhuman" and "machine" aspect to the songs (in the best possible way) while Robin provides a very warm and melodic style. Robin is a very different guitar player than Slash, but his solos play the same role Slash's solos did in previous albums (if that makes sense). A perfect example: "Better." Buckethead plays those crazy leads which really propel the song forward and build energy, but Robin's final solo really gives some release. Regardless of one's opinion on how Chinese Democracy sounded "overproduced," it cannot be denied that Axl possesses a great ear for guitarists that play well off each other. (Although I suppose everyone makes mistakes, and Axl's would be DJ Ashba). 

Also, despite what someone else said, Buckethead did not play on every song. He does not appear on "Catcher in the Rye" or "This I Love." 

Edited April 6, 2017 by themadcaplaughs

[cqleonardo]

I'll go with Bucket because he wrote one of the most beautiful pieces of music in the world to me, the TWAT solo, after all these years I still get goosebumps everytime I listen to it, is like the first time over and over again

I would give two fingers to hear the 2002 version of the whole thing, man, I believe that sounds great

[Towelie]

Ron's contributions on the album is the most interesting thing on the record. His crazy tapping and solo on Shacklers MAKES the song for me. I also love his solo on Catcher, especially on the outro verse. That's really beautiful stuff.

Ron is a really unique player. I can always pick him out and identify his tone and style, even when he's playing amongst several different guitarists. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Towelie

[wasted]

I like what Bumble did and I haven't heard the Bucket only versions. But Bucket has more writing credits.

I think Finck seems more vital to the whole album. As in he was involved with Chi dem, Better, SOD, Twat, TIL. Bucket is more Shacklers, Scraped, Sorry, If the World. 

You've also got Tobias credits IRS, Catcher, Twat, Prostitute. 

Maybe the album is almost like an Izzy/Slash split between Finck/Bucket writing wise. 

Ron seemed like a team player and involved in the final version of the album. In a way Bumble v Bucket is like Slash v Zakk which couldve happened. 

It's hard to say when to stop. I'd love to hear the Finck/Beavan record. Then the Bucket/RTB and we got the Bumble/Costanzo version. 

[Italian girl]

the trashiest of the trash vs a ridiculous cartoon.

where the hell was slash?

[DR DOOM]

Ron (and Frank) only made the songs worse, to my ears.

The skwerl leaks (and earlier) sound way better.

For example, Ron just clogged IRS up with directionless noodling, those spaces were one of the great things about that song and I fucking hate the album version.

I hate what they did to the title track too, and that horrible solo on Rhiad.

 

[Słash]

I would be pretty interested in an album by Axl with Bucket and Josh Freese only. 

Over the years Bucket and Josh have done some amazing work.

Some of the bucket songs are really melodious and some of his songs do need a singer and it would take them to another level. 

Robin did a fine job on Axl's album, but I never liked his playing live and even in General, I dont like NIN. 

Ron is a great guitar player, I have enjoyed his solo material and his stuff with AOA, but he is not a type of a guitarist who was fit for Axl's band. 

[Gackt]

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Gackt

[Mendez]

I like Buckethead as a soloer more than Ron, just because if TWAT and Sorry. Those were great. But Ron has an good solo on his song "Don't Know Who to Pray to Anymore". So Im still leaning more Buckethead. I also thought Buckets solos on I.R.S on Prostitute were great as well

Edited April 6, 2017 by Mendez

[soon]

Im really interested in this.  I wasn't around during the leaks and haven't even heard most of them from what I can gather.  I would love too!

And also a question:  Is there a way to know who is playing what, beyond tone and style?  Like a basic rhythm guitar thats 6th in the mix seems like it would be hard to i.d.  How do people do that?

Edited April 6, 2017 by soon

[cqleonardo]

I did a huuuuge compilation about CD, is sitting on my computer, has everything besides the official album version, all the leaks, all the 2013, various live versions of everything.... If anyone wants, hit me up

[Stoymatic]

Buckethead>All NuGnr players 

 

not even close what bucket brought to the table compared to any of them!

[BorderlineCrazy]

6 hours ago, Gackt said:

 

I love the If The World acoustic solos on the 2nd part. I find the song to be a massive piece of shit but Bucket's solos are beyond beautiful.