Jump to content

Mr. Buckethead vs Bumblefoot on Chinese Democracy


Bumblefoot - Yay or Nay?  

166 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

On 4/10/2017 at 10:39 PM, Mendez said:

Well we don't really know that. (Unless you know something we don't)

If you look back at my post history, I've posted a lot about GN'R and Buckethead. I've never met the Bucket himself, but I have been a fan of his since 1992 and know a lot of people who have been a part of his "crew" for years, so I've heard my fair share of stories I'd be willing to believe. When Buckethead started playing with GN'R, it was one of those "worlds colliding moments" for me. 

Like every member who has been in Guns N' Roses from 1998 on, Buckethead got carte blanch to record whatever he wanted and show it to Axl and other band members to possible incorporate into new songs. That being said, by the time Buckethead joined the band, the "foundation" of Chinese Democracy had been recorded. So while "Sorry" and "Shackler's Revenge" made their way onto the album, the majority of Buckethead's contributions to Chinese Democracy were recording solos and leads to existing songs (which he did an A+ job of doing) or contributing ideas to existing songs. There may very well be a handful of alternate takes of guitar solos recorded by Buckethead that got cut (we've seen that from "Riad") but I would assume that the vast majority, if not all, the riffs of Buckethead's that we have not heard were meant for future albums and songs. In terms of Bucket's work on Chinese songs, we've heard most of it. Apparently, some of the other band members got mad that Buckethead ended up on so much of the album when he had so little to do with writing and forming the songs. 

As for Axl keeping the riffs and songs Buckethead may have contributed, it's unfortunate we may never hear them, but these types of deals are not uncommon with big name bands, particularly when their members are hired as employees like later day GN'R members. I used to hold out hope that we'd still hear a lot of this stuff, with Ron and DJ's parts added, on a new album, but I sincerely believe we'll never hear any of this stuff. I would be surprised if we ever get a brand new Guns N' Roses album. 

Edited by themadcaplaughs
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Kudos to everyone who knows who is playing what on Chinese Democracy. I really enjoy CD and listen to it fairly frequently and I typically have no idea who is playing what. 

But to me, too many cooks in the kitchen. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5.4.2017 at 11:33 PM, RONIN said:

bumblefoot+and+buckethead+guns+n%27+roses+guitarrist.jpg?token=GPdOjMUCJxYjuE%2BprxqSKEwTJJQ%3D

 

So as we know, Axl Rose has a habit of erasing prior musician contributions in favor of the current musician in his revolving lineup. This goes all the way back to Izzy's parts on TSI getting replaced with Gilby.

So the question is, did the quality of chinese democracy suffer by including Bumblefoot in the album? Was it a mistake to replace the genius known as Mr. Buckethead on various parts of CD songs with Bumble? Was the album sullied irreparably by sidelining the contributions of Colonel Sander's friend? There were rumors back in the day that Buckethead submitted a ton of riffs to Axl, many of which were never used or replaced on CD once he left the band.

In my humble opinion, Bumblefoot's playing just strips the magic of the Brian May guitar on the "Catcher in the Rye" demo. It goes from an Illusions worthy classic to a good if unremarkable rock song. If they had to dump the Brian May guitar, I'm sure Bucket would have killed it if given the chance.

Here's another thought -- should Axl have just made CD with Buckethead as his lead guitarist and no Robin Finck? 

 

No! Robins and Bucketheads contributions were equally important for CD. But I wouldn't miss Bumble's or Richard's input

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/5/2017 at 7:25 PM, Silent Jay said:

Then you will have to listen to the Antiquiet demos. It's clearly stripped down and less sophisticated, but that is not what ChDm is.

Well how do you know if the material with Buckethead would have been better? We only had to hear his version on Riad and it still sucked.

where can i find each specific leak online? i have had trouble finding them together all together. i find a 1999 leak here a 2006 leak there, but never all of them at once or from one source. any ideas where i can find all of the 1999 leaks, msl leaks, or antiquiet leaks?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like both guitarists work on Chinese Democracy.

Buckethead's leads on the record, especially TWAT, are amazing. I wish there were more Axl/Bucket recordings.

As for Bumble, I like what he brought too. The "sleazy" guitar on Chinese was a great addition and makes the track rock more.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, F*ck Fear said:

I like both guitarists work on Chinese Democracy.

Buckethead's leads on the record, especially TWAT, are amazing. I wish there were more Axl/Bucket recordings.

As for Bumble, I like what he brought too. The "sleazy" guitar on Chinese was a great addition and makes the track rock more.

 He did a better job on rhythm guitar than Richard.

On 16.6.2017 at 7:51 PM, moreblack said:

He releases that kind of thing on his own every month it seems

I wish that Slash would do something similar. Half hour long albums with different styles 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Sosso said:

 He did a better job on rhythm guitar than Richard.

I don't really think that's a fair statement. Honestly I don't even know what Richard's tone on the album is. I couldn't pick him out from the rest of the other 4 guitars tracks playing the same thing. I could easily pick out Bumblefoot just because his tone is more muted/mid-ey; more recognisable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mendez said:

I don't really think that's a fair statement. Honestly I don't even know what Richard's tone on the album is. I couldn't pick him out from the rest of the other 4 guitars tracks playing the same thing. I could easily pick out Bumblefoot just because his tone is more muted/mid-ey; more recognisable.

Richard was only featured on five tracks whereas Bumblefoot played rhythm guitar the whole album.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

Richard was only featured on five tracks whereas Bumblefoot played rhythm guitar the whole album.

What I mean is their rhythm tones aren't recognizable enough IMO when 5 rhythm guitars are laid over each other to accurately assess their playing. Bumblefoot is the easiest to hear because 1.) his tone is very mid-ey and 2.) he is much louder than any one elses rhythm track. Not talking about leads, only rhythms. I mean on I.R.S. there are 3 unique rhythm guitar parts, one of those is the original more "alternative" rock style of playing, which was then doubled on the other side of the stereo track. Then with the antiquiet/MSL leak, we got a more "rock n roll" and percussive (and dare I say "Izzy"-esque) track. This track is practically in audible on the album version. Then with the album we got Bumblefoot's obvious guitar track, which is significantly louder than all the other tracks. What I'm saying is theres no telling who is playing the two "alternative" tracks, and whos playing the more "rock n roll" track. But it is very obvious which track is Bumblefoots because of his tone. Not counting Buckethead's variation of the main riff using his killswitch.

 

With guitar lead overdubs, like on Prostitute, it is obvious to hear who plays what (Most likely Robin being hard panned right, and Buckethead being hard panned left)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Mendez said:

What I mean is their rhythm tones aren't recognizable enough IMO when 5 rhythm guitars are laid over each other to accurately assess their playing. Bumblefoot is the easiest to hear because 1.) his tone is very mid-ey and 2.) he is much louder than any one elses rhythm track. Not talking about leads, only rhythms. I mean on I.R.S. there are 3 unique rhythm guitar parts, one of those is the original more "alternative" rock style of playing, which was then doubled on the other side of the stereo track. Then with the antiquiet/MSL leak, we got a more "rock n roll" and percussive (and dare I say "Izzy"-esque) track. This track is practically in audible on the album version. Then with the album we got Bumblefoot's obvious guitar track, which is significantly louder than all the other tracks. What I'm saying is theres no telling who is playing the two "alternative" tracks, and whos playing the more "rock n roll" track. But it is very obvious which track is Bumblefoots because of his tone. Not counting Buckethead's variation of the main riff using his killswitch.

 

With guitar lead overdubs, like on Prostitute, it is obvious to hear who plays what (Most likely Robin being hard panned right, and Buckethead being hard panned left)

Wasn't that the whole plan for Chinese Democracy? Axl said a wall of guitars. Axl worked that way. 

Prostitute features five guitarists: Bucket, Robin, BBF, Paul, 4tus. But that doesn't mean they're all cracking up one riff at the same time, most of the time it's bumble and bucket or Robin. They all have a pretty distinctive sound, style and place. And the rest has more to do with little arrangements, little riffs, and there a lot of them underneath (clean, less distorted riffs). The antiquiet files are just bumble/frank-less files, not pitch harmonics and stuff so consequently, more stripped down, but lot less heavier. The whole plan wasn't for you to know where is Paul or Richard. It's like you don't know who play the two acoustic tracks on I.R.S. but you probably know it's Bucket and Robin. You won't be able to hear Axl play guitar on TWAT and Madagascar until you know what he's playing. Nothing has been really buried. The rock band files definitely help.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

Wasn't that the whole plan for Chinese Democracy? Axl said a wall of guitars. Axl worked that way. 

Prostitute features five guitarists: Bucket, Robin, BBF, Paul, 4tus. But that doesn't mean they're all cracking up one riff at the same time, most of the time it's bumble and bucket or Robin. They all have a pretty distinctive sound, style and place. And the rest has more to do with little arrangements, little riffs, and there a lot of them underneath (clean, less distorted riffs). The antiquiet files are just bumble/frank-less files, not pitch harmonics and stuff so consequently, more stripped down, but lot less heavier. The whole plan wasn't for you to know where is Paul or Richard. It's like you don't know who play the two acoustic tracks on I.R.S. but you probably know it's Bucket and Robin. You won't be able to hear Axl play guitar on TWAT and Madagascar until you know what he's playing. Nothing has been really buried. The rock band files definitely help.

 

Thats my point. It can't be said that Bumblefoot was a better rhythm player than Fortus if you don't know what Fortus is playing in the first place. And yeah, I've listen to the rock band files tons. (Used them to recreate nearly every guitar part for Prostitute in Garageband, as well as everything else)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mendez said:

Thats my point. It can't be said that Bumblefoot was a better rhythm player than Fortus if you don't know what Fortus is playing in the first place. And yeah, I've listen to the rock band files tons. (Used them to recreate nearly every guitar part for Prostitute in Garageband, as well as everything else)

Awesome.

Bumblefoot is indeed a better rhythm player than Fortus. Miles better. You don't have to look at the cd album to know that.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

Awesome.

Bumblefoot is indeed a better rhythm player than Fortus. Miles better. You don't have to look at the cd album to know that.

I'm not saying he isn't. What I'm saying is CD is probably the only real thing to compare them as rhythm players (meaning playing rhythm to someone elses riffs). And its not even a good source for comparison when you can't pick anything out that Fortus is playing (or which rhythm part is which), while Bumblefoot is completely audible and louder than the other guitars.

(Where as on Bumblefoot's solo work, he isn't playing rhythm to someone's riffs, he plays the same thing on either side as far as rhythm goes, with the exception of Abnormal, where hes only has two guitar tracks panned either side, alternating between playing lead and rhythm. In Art of Anarchy Bumblefoot sorta plays rhythm, but if it isn't a lead, he's playing the same thing as Jon Votta. And with Fortus on Love Split Love, he wasn't playing rhythm either, he was the only guitarist.)

Edited by Mendez
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bumblefoots rhythm guitar on If the World and This I Love is another good example. His guitar tone gives the songs a very deep sound. Especially to the chorus on If the World.

Edited by Sosso
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Sosso said:

Bumblefoots rhythm guitar on If the World and This I Love is another good example. His guitar tone gives the songs a very deep sound. Especially to the chorus on If the World.

For if the world, hes mostly playing the little solo riffs. If you're talking about the Drop C riff, thats most likely Buckethead (its his tone).

I personally don't think TIL is a good example of playing rhythm. Hes just doubling Robins guitar which, is just the sustained chord progression. I think CD and I.R.S. are better examples of BBF's rhythm style, because hes doing variation of the main riffs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mendez said:

I'm not saying he isn't. What I'm saying is CD is probably the only real thing to compare them as rhythm players (meaning playing rhythm to someone elses riffs). And its not even a good source for comparison when you can't pick anything out that Fortus is playing (or which rhythm part is which), while Bumblefoot is completely audible and louder than the other guitars.

(Where as on Bumblefoot's solo work, he isn't playing rhythm to someone's riffs, he plays the same thing on either side as far as rhythm goes, with the exception of Abnormal, where hes only has two guitar tracks panned either side, alternating between playing lead and rhythm. In Art of Anarchy Bumblefoot sorta plays rhythm, but if it isn't a lead, he's playing the same thing as Jon Votta. And with Fortus on Love Split Love, he wasn't playing rhythm either, he was the only guitarist.)

No no I get it. Listen, with Guns N' Roses Richard is probably a better fit right now with Slash, because he's a vintage Rolling Stones guy and he looks like Izzy. Bumblefoot was the new Buckethead, so we've got two very different style of players. If you compare them right because of Chinese, that's clearly stupid since Axl made the album. You can compare them wherever you like, if it's on record, live or in a guitar workshop and stuff. Bumblefoot is just a superior guitarist in any form, he's in the same league as Vai or Govan, his talent is so much wider than Guns N' Roses, as a matter of fact, I worked with someone who's teacher was Cristophe Godin, and one of the first thing he said on Bumblefoot was about his technicity as a rhythm player. While Richard is a decent player, but very limited, the same way Izzy and Gilby were.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Towelie said:

I really think some fans don't realise quite how good a player Ron Thal was/is. They just decided they didn't care for him, cuz he didn't wear a top-hat or a KFC bucket on his face.

No one misses his shitty tone. He was better then Dj but that's not saying much

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...