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How do we think Axl feels about CD?


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6 hours ago, Jw224 said:

I've been wondering recently; how does Axl feel about CD? Do you think he has regrets and its something that bothers him, spending so much of his life on the one album (a great one, imo, but still). Or do you think he looks back and is proud of what he did and is glad that he has been able to put something that was, in a way, his, out into the world? I thought this would be an interesting discussion. 

thats a terrific question and it would be priceless to have axl say whatever it is that he believes and feels about that album

there is an interesting point in your question: Do you think he has regrets spending so much of his life on the one album

if I had to guess, id say that axl actually didnt spend all that effort and all those years on the album. he probably sat on it for most of the time without doing much -- or nothing at all. one day he woke up and noticed all those years (and all that money etc) had gone by...

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5 hours ago, TupacShakur said:

I think he regrets the vocals on the album he said in the china exchange interview that they didn't go over well with fans

thats one of the most unbelievable things about that album. i dont think i will ever understand how is that axl actually enjoyed his vocals. i mean, he must have liked how his (clear) voice sounded to record the vocals like that. how can somebody enjoy listening to those vocals is beyond me.

then again, i still remember people telling me in 1990 that axl sounded like a jackdaw (the bird) and i couldnt understand for the life of me how is that those people didnt enjoy axl's voice then, which was obviously the best voice in the planet at that time

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5 hours ago, mikeman5150 said:

he has to wonder if he would've put it out in 2004-2005 with slash and duff, how big it would've been. The general public was so hungry for a GNR reunion/album at that time

i am not sure about any of that.

there is not much slash and duff could have done to that album because -- this is very simple -- the songs arent there.

guns n roses became guns n roses because of the songs.

that album has weak songs and slash and duff are not exactly master songwriters much less song doctors to save those songs

of course if you add izzy in the mix than there is a huge chance that the songs would be changed/saved and then...

everything changes!

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4 hours ago, RONIN said:

It would have been a blockbuster album between 1999-2003 when GnR was transitioning to legendary status.

man, this is nonsense

guns n roses was "legendary" in 1991. they had gods-of-rock status when the illusions were released. that was BEFORE november rain, before the milion dollar videos and all the nonsense that followed.

from there (1991) to here (2017), guns n roses did nothing but LOSE the rock-gods aura that it once had.

it may be legendary to some people now (Axl! Slash! Yeah!) but any rock fan that actually cares about music and knows 2 or 3 things about what happened in that band (specially during the axl solo years) knows that "it became a joke"

4 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

No artist feels differently.

bullshit

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4 hours ago, Jw224 said:

I definitely think that he took too long, although I do sometimes wonder what the album would have been like had it released earlier.

from the reports it was more industrial in the late 90's  

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18 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

i am not sure about any of that.

there is not much slash and duff could have done to that album because -- this is very simple -- the songs arent there.

guns n roses became guns n roses because of the songs.

that album has weak songs and slash and duff are not exactly master songwriters much less song doctors to save those songs

of course if you add izzy in the mix than there is a huge chance that the songs would be changed/saved and then...

everything changes!

I guess it's all just a matter of opinion. I do know that velvet revolver went over rather well at the time and izzy wasn't in the band. I'd take Axl over Scott any day. More people would've been open to it if Slash was there

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3 minutes ago, mikeman5150 said:

I guess it's all just a matter of opinion. I do know that velvet revolver went over rather well at the time and izzy wasn't in the band. I'd take Axl over Scott any day. More people would've been open to it if Slash was there

VR's sound was much more in-line with Classic GNR than CD. 

I agree that people been more open to CD had Slash/Duff been on it but i also think it would be more Raw/Heavy. 

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ChiDem is Axl's baby, I'm sure he's proud of it but wishes he could have took all the time he desired to make it what he envisioned instead of taking all that Dr. Pepper pressure :P

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2 hours ago, mikeman5150 said:

I guess it's all just a matter of opinion. I do know that velvet revolver went over rather well at the time and izzy wasn't in the band. I'd take Axl over Scott any day. More people would've been open to it if Slash was there

i think VR went rather poorly given the "potential"

3 guys from guns n roses and the singer of stone temple pilots and there is not one single A+ top quality song in there?

(except a few great or really good tracks -- like come on come in and get out the door -- but then again none of these songs had any real musical impact like so many songs from their previous bands GNR and STP)

please dont tell me fall to pieces or slither are remotely close to being A+ songs or to have worldwide impact like a GNR song or (to a lesser degree) a STP song

they didnt write anything remotely as good as any GNR or STP track

the audience, hungry for their music, reacted accordingly. people went to their shows, buy a few million records, and forgot them pretty fast

or am i mistaken?

 

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15 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

i think VR went rather poorly given the "potential"

3 guys from guns n roses and the singer of stone temple pilots and there is not one single A+ top quality song in there?

(except a few great or really good tracks -- like come on come in and get out the door -- but then again none of these songs had any real musical impact like so many songs from their previous bands GNR and STP)

please dont tell me fall to pieces or slither are remotely close to being A+ songs or to have worldwide impact like a GNR song or (to a lesser degree) a STP song

they didnt write anything remotely as good as any GNR or STP track

the audience, hungry for their music, reacted accordingly. people went to their shows, buy a few million records, and forgot them pretty fast

or am i mistaken?

 

I agree with you for the most part. For the time VR was good, but you're right, not in the same league as GNR. I'm just sayin that I think Axl probably has some regret about not involving slash and co because it could've been so much bigger. Like W-A-R said in this thread, it would've had a more raw sound. Concert tickets would've been selling better than they are now and it could've started a whole other chapter in the GNR storybook. They were still in their 40's then, much like Aerosmith did in the mid 90's I think guns could've regained their crown. Obviously people are still stoked about this reunion, I know I am, but I still believe they waited way too long to do it.

I like to think if the reunion and an Axl + Slash Chinese democracy happened in 05', we'd be talking about guns new tour featuring tracks off their 10th album. Ok that last part is just my own personal happy ending. I need to go to bed because I'm sounding like a crazy person. Peace!

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I'm sure he's mostly happy with the album. In the end, he didn't spend all the time just on that one album. He's got loads of other songs written from that period that he can use on future albums. We know that CD songs are his favorite songs to perform live, at least according to himself. But of course they play more AFD songs because fans want to hear those and also because surely Slash and Duff prefer playing songs that they've created.

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I hope he's happy with the album. It's a great record.

These days I actually like the lyrics of ChiDem (and UYI's) more than I like the lyrics of AFD. I can relate to them more. They tell more interesting stories than just boozing and fucking around. (AFD is still my favorite Guns-album, though. Not trying to piss on it or anything. Instrumental-wise it's an absolute masterpiece.) I think it's a good thing that Axl prefers to sing ChiDem songs live over the older songs. Means the he isn't stuck in the past. That's my view on it anyways. It would be nice to know why likes singing those songs more, is it the lyrics or are the vocals/melodies easier for him to sing?

Edited by jekylhyde
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I think he's said he's proud and happy with it, but also wishes he could have got more material out, through self releasing. He said such a loss of time at some point. I think there is some regret. 

The way things are so hunky dory now, they must think what were we thinking all those years? I feel that about carbs. I could have saved myself a lot of hassle. 

But there's something about a break-up and reunion in rock. It's not the worst career move ever. 

I find it difficult to believe they didnt plan it. I just think they wanted to convince everyone it would never happen before they did it. And that took longer than they thought. 

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9 hours ago, Jw224 said:

That's interesting, I wonder how much it actually changed from its initial conception. I would love to hear the earliest makings of the album and find out if it was so drastically different to how it eventually became. I can't really imagine any of those songs sounding anything like Oh My God haha. Although I did enjoy that song personally. It was an interesting step for Axl, anyway. I agree it happened the only way it could've. It seems Axl was determined to release something he was totally satisfied with. 

My guess is that it would be more the song selection. Like you mentioned Oh my god, I would guess that Silkworms would have been on the Beavan record. The General and Atlas Shrugged, Oklahoma may have been on it. Songs like Shacklers, Better, If the World, Sorry, Scraped didn't come to fruition until later. So I think it's more nu metal rockers and no Buckethead. The Blues and Catcher/Twat demos might hint it was more like UYI. Less layers and less guitarists. Tommy said the label didn't like the "raw sounds". At the time it was probably the next step on from UYI. But CD has like 2 more evolutions from UYI. 

 

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Axl should be proud of it. It's unique. It's madness. You have Buckethead, Robin Finck and Bumblefoot. The coolest guitarists of the 21st century.

Sure it would have been cool to have all the artworks on paper, but people live in a world of streaming services and M&M's stores.

 

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Sure he is proud of it, but I do feel that in his mind (and mine) it's not fully complete or fully a guns album. I think that's part of the reason he likes playing the CD songs so much now, because they sound more like guns than they ever have. So in my mind (and in Axl's imo) the songs they currently play live are finally sounding like he envisioned. 

Let's be honest here; Ashba, BBF, and arguably Buckethead and Finck were only there because Slash wasnt. So the sound Axl wanted was ALWAYS Slash, he just wanted to take THAT sound in a slightly different direction. Out of all of those guys, Finck was the only one that might have played with Slash. So his impact on CD I DO feel "belongs" because if Slash hadn't quit, than it would have been Slash and Finck writing what became CD. I know many people LOVE Buckethead (and I agree he is a great guitarist) but he would NOT of been in gnr had Slash stayed, so all things considered Finck does rank higher in terms of gnr. Ashba and BBF were always just replacement members, so there importance has ALWAYS been minimal imo. Fortus (as of now) is separate from the others (because he is the rhythm guy). So as of now he is in the same boat as Gilby imo, important to gnr legacy, both played on a gnr album. But neither are Izzy. 

So what I'm really saying here is, YES the personnel that were used to make CD I DO feel weighs on Axl's mind, just like it does on ours (fans). So even though Axl clearly LOVES some of the songs from CD, he knows they didn't quite sound like Guns on the actual album. He has said that he does feel it's a Guns n Roses album, it just took a lot of work in order to try and make that happen, and even then it still feels like it's missing something (Slash). So he probably does feel that with Slash playing those songs now, they sound like he originally intended them to sound. It's also worth noting that the songs that they ARE playing on THIS tour are the more Finck influenced ones. Yes Buckethead had his hands on Sorry and TWAT, but the songs that Buckethead helped write (shackles, etc) I bet we never hear live again. So again it does beg the question that Finck DOES indeed out rank Buckethead in terms of gnr. Finck just couldn't play the classics for his life imo, but if Slash had stayed that wouldn't of been a problem. Buckethead, BBF, and Ashba are the odd men out now. That's their order of importance to gnr history as well.

Edited by Iron MikeyJ
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8 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

We could play what if's and grab ass all day but it comes down to the fact that what happened was always going to happen.

The only plausible scenario is if Slash accepted Axl's offer in 2001 to play on CD. That could've set off a domino effect.

Instead 2002 happened, Axl went into hiding, Bucket left, VR was successful, and the only thing that got Axl out of hiding was Slash coming to his house drunk talking shit telling Axl he was right all along. You fucking right I was, says the Big Ging. 2006 was always going to be Axl showing everyone who the fuck he is then he ran into a legal wall. The rest was history. They both acted like children, dummies, whatever, and it cost 'em both. Pride will burn ya kids, better invest your chips elsewhere! 

In the words of the great MikeMan... peace!

The best I heard yet. The break up was always going to happen. No ifs or buts about that. It's wasn't anyone members fault. And best case scenario was the offer made by Axl to Slash in 2001, which has never been confirmed. That could just be Marc Canters interpretation of some long-winded Axl conversation. I'm skeptical Axl made such an offer to Slash at that especially considering his freakout to Slash attending a 2001 concert, which Slash would have to be super high to think he could stand in the back of a GNR concert and go unnoticed and not be anything but a fucking distraction. Could you imagine at that 2001 show, seeing Slash in the general audience.

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20 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

I don't entirely disagree even if my position is that Chinese Democracy is a masterpiece.

Axl made a fine art rock record. The thing about fine art is it has a very select audience and all it takes is one person to pay millions for your painting. 

For sure - I could get behind that. Would stop short of calling it a masterpiece for the simple reason that we have existing demos that were better than the final versions on the album. The inclusion of Frank and Bumble are a negative mark on the quality of the album (imho). Mixing is another issue - Axl has struggled with this since AFD. I realize this isn't really a riff/guitar driven album but I would have liked more Buckethead. His contributions definitely leave you wanting more which I suppose is the best outcome one can ask for. 

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When I listen to the album instrumentally, I think it's an amazing and abstract musical journey. When I listen to the regular album I think it has a bad mix and too many layers.

It didn't get it's proper credit, for the guitar work alone, but it will never be given a fair shake.

 

100% with you here. I was actually listening to This I Love without the vocal and guitar layers recently. Stunned by the beauty of the composition. Finck's guitar work (which I like on that song) unfortunately masks some of this and gets in the way imho. Ditto w/ Madagascar - remove the guitar layer and MLK quotes - it's a great piece Axl has put together. CD has garnered a cult fanbase in the years since its release. I think appreciation for it has grown among music fans. I imagine as Axl and Guns continue to rehab their brand, CD will get a reappraisal eventually.

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Invincible? It's a good album but too long.  

Really? I'll have to spin that one again. Felt like it was inconsistent with a few strong singles.

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19 hours ago, ludurigan said:

man, this is nonsense

guns n roses was "legendary" in 1991. they had gods-of-rock status when the illusions were released. that was BEFORE november rain, before the milion dollar videos and all the nonsense that followed.

I was a child in '91 so I can't really confirm/deny this - I'll take your word for it. Although I will say, American fans are not in awe of Guns N' Roses anywhere near the same extent that non-american fans are (especially south american and european fans).

November Rain brought them a huge mainstream audience. It's the most watched rock video on youtube and possibly the most watched song on youtube pre-2000. That's a huge accomplishment and testament to the popularity of those infamous ballads. Point taken though - the videos were pretty terrible although I do get a kick out of November Rain, especially the "live" portions and Slash playing air-guitar in the desert.

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from there (1991) to here (2017), guns n roses did nothing but LOSE the rock-gods aura that it once had.

it may be legendary to some people now (Axl! Slash! Yeah!) but any rock fan that actually cares about music and knows 2 or 3 things about what happened in that band (specially during the axl solo years) knows that "it became a joke"

 

Well - hard to disagree there. Axl and GnR have been hemorrhaging fans since 1991. 

Speaking as an American who was a teenager during the mid-late 90's and went to school during those years - from my earliest recollection, nobody really listened to Guns that were my age. They were considered almost "uncool". Metallica and grunge bands like Nirvana were still considered cool but most teens of that era were listening to watered down punk bands or acts like NIN, Marilyn Manson, Green Day, Limp Bizkit, Korn, Linkin Park, etc. Boybands and the EDM/hip hop scenes were also strong then. Remember how popular Moby and Paul Oakenfold used to be? That's all I remember from MTV in the late 90's. For the most part, the music of that era was perhaps among the worst in history with few exceptions. In any case, the band's legacy during that time was in poor shape. People did not appreciate or want to recognize what an influential force they were (at least in the media).

This perception of GnR being uncool began to change among my friends and in the press around 1999-2000, just as that horrid nu-metal scene was on the wane. Guns came into mainstream consciousness again for teenagers through specials that used to run on channels like VH1 where AFD would get praised as one of the best hard rock albums ever - that eventually turned into popular musicians of that era like Dave Navarro saying something cool about Guns. The tide started to change there. As Wagzilla pointed out, there was a huge upswell of interest/nostalgia towards bands like GnR in the early 2000's. Why else would a mediocre band like VR get so much attention? They rode that wave of interest. If Axl had his shit together, CD would have been released around that time.

More importantly, the reunion should have happened when they released the Greatest Hits compilation. It would have been a much bigger and hyped event than NITL. Any Guns album at that time would have easily gone 3-5x platinum, especially if it was worthy of the previous albums.

 

Edited by RONIN
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7 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Sure he is proud of it, but I do feel that in his mind (and mine) it's not fully complete or fully a guns album. I think that's part of the reason he likes playing the CD songs so much now, because they sound more like guns than they ever have. So in my mind (and in Axl's imo) the songs they currently play live are finally sounding like he envisioned. 

Let's be honest here; Ashba, BBF, and arguably Buckethead and Finck were only there because Slash wasnt. So the sound Axl wanted was ALWAYS Slash, he just wanted to take THAT sound in a slightly different direction. Out of all of those guys, Finck was the only one that might have played with Slash. So his impact on CD I DO feel "belongs" because if Slash hadn't quit, than it would have been Slash and Finck writing what became CD. I know many people LOVE Buckethead (and I agree he is a great guitarist) but he would NOT of been in gnr had Slash stayed, so all things considered Finck does rank higher in terms of gnr. Ashba and BBF were always just replacement members, so there importance has ALWAYS been minimal imo. Fortus (as of now) is separate from the others (because he is the rhythm guy). So as of now he is in the same boat as Gilby imo, important to gnr legacy, both played on a gnr album. But neither are Izzy. 

So what I'm really saying here is, YES the personnel that were used to make CD I DO feel weighs on Axl's mind, just like it does on ours (fans). So even though Axl clearly LOVES some of the songs from CD, he knows they didn't quite sound like Guns on the actual album. He has said that he does feel it's a Guns n Roses album, it just took a lot of work in order to try and make that happen, and even then it still feels like it's missing something (Slash). So he probably does feel that with Slash playing those songs now, they sound like he originally intended them to sound. It's also worth noting that the songs that they ARE playing on THIS tour are the more Finck influenced ones. Yes Buckethead had his hands on Sorry and TWAT, but the songs that Buckethead helped write (shackles, etc) I bet we never hear live again. So again it does beg the question that Finck DOES indeed out rank Buckethead in terms of gnr. Finck just couldn't play the classics for his life imo, but if Slash had stayed that wouldn't of been a problem. Buckethead, BBF, and Ashba are the odd men out now. That's their order of importance to gnr history as well.

Finck was suggested by Matt Sorum as a replacement rhythm guitarist for Izzy/Paul Tobias. So you're right, conceivably he could have been roped in by Axl to play alongside Slash for the next record.

This only shows me how clueless Axl is about his guitarists. Finck is a lead guitarist. The previous guy they courted for the job was Dave Navarro, another lead player. The guy they have in the spot now, Fortus, is...you guessed it...a lead guitarist. A good rhythm guitarist like Izzy is supposed to lay down grooves and textures for the lead to riff and solo on. Whatever Axl was trying to do was mental and if we're being generous, unconventional at best.

Aside from one awesome solo (Better) and a couple good ones on TIL - I'm not really much of a fan. Piss poor live player. Good songwriter and a cool guy though. His value was definitely more as a studio musician. If Axl had jammed with Finck and Buckethead in studio and written songs together in a truly collaborative way, that could have been really special. All of those guys can write great stuff on their own. 

One other thing to add - I think Bucket became really important to Nu-Guns and Axl creatively with the departure of Finck when his contract was up. I believe there was some creative tension between Finck and Bucket - usually that type of chemistry can lead to great results in the studio.

The songs that Slash seems to really shine on from Chinese are Catcher, Sorry, and TIL imho. He's been killing it on Sorry lately. 

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