Apollo Show - Izzy & Steven Not Playing - Argue About It HERE

[EvanG]

4 minutes ago, 2414225 said:

Steven is happy when he can just play 2 songs. As said before there is no excuse for not inviting him, Matt, etc. And as said many times before by other people: Axl is living in his own world. 

No one is happy playing just two songs... he accepted it because it was all they gave him and he wanted closure, but I don't think he was happy about it.

Edited July 21, 2017 by EvanG

[2414225]

Just now, EvanG said:

No one is happy playing just two songs... he accepted it because it was all they gave him and he wanted closure, but I don't think he was happy about it.

I am definitely not happy that Frank is playing more than 2 songs

[Blackstar]

I moved this post from the show thread, for not derailing it.

7 hours ago, RONIN said:

Agreed. But there are a fair amount of people on this forum itself who would not have gone to the Vegas gigs had they known Izzy and Steven wouldn't be there. Something GnR could easily have cleared up by announcing the final lineup.

The bait and switch type marketing is what is pissing people off. The NA arena tour hype being the prime example of this. If their marketing was clear and not so ambiguous - I don't think the backlash would be as heavy on this forum.

Remember that promo video before the "big announcement", the one that erased Izzy and Steven from history? It couldn't have been any more telling, yet there were people here still expecting that the announcement would have to do with the anniversary/AFD5 and then they were disappointed because it didn't.

Then that promo was forgotten and hopes got up again about the Apollo show almost out of nothing. Yes, I know, this time we had the billboards... but on the other hand, everything else was pointing to the opposite. And I'm sure that even without the billboards, people would have still expected something special.

I understand that this is a forum of die-hard fans who want and hope for more from their favourite band, but I think that some people choose to get delusional and then be let down. I'd like more too, but I see it as it is and don't expect much.

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Blackstar

[Ktex]

Just was listening to the encore on Sirius in my car and Axl sounds really good.

[Frey]

16 hours ago, thunderram said:

While I agree with both of you, as I am a BIG fan of ALL the original and even replacement members up until the band split, this person hating on IZZY is no different than the hate that is often spewed toward other band members and the collective band in general on a daily basis. There are lots of people that frequently post here that open profess to dislike the band and most it's music. So nothing surprises me anymore.

True.

While I personally can't understand hating Izzy and find it pretty baffling that anyone could, fact is that people here on this forum hate on Axl, Slash and even Duff every damn day.

So I really don't understand the outrage and shock on the rare occasions when Izzy does get the same treatment.

If the other guys are fair game for this type of thing, then so is Izzy.

 

10 hours ago, RONIN said:

Here's what you're missing - Izzy probably had no choice but to sell off his stake when he decided to quit the band. At that point, from what I understand, when a partner decides to quit or is fired, they are legally obligated/forced to sell their stake to the other partners who essentially will buy them out at for an agreed upon amount. This is what happened to Steven and Izzy. I imagine if they could have in any way retained their stake in GnR, they would have for obvious financial reasons.

Why didn't this happen to Duff and Slash? Because they didn't leave the original partnership. Axl did. Clearly he has legally amended the original partnership agreement in some way that blocked the other partners from buying him out - hence, the "new guns" contract which Slash and Duff were given to sign and which they ultimately refused to. Duff and Slash in essence lucked out into retaining their shares because Axl quit the original partnership and rendered it inert.

So when we look at hard facts, yes, Izzy and Steven forfeited their stake and sold it. Therefore, technically they aren't entitled to anything but the wages of hired help. When we look at this as decent human beings (which I'm assuming you are), it seems obvious that Izzy was not afforded the same luxury of retaining his stake in the band as the others. When you look at this as a fan and as a logical person - you would think -

"These guys are millionaires who are making 3 mil + / show - can't they carve out a decent sum to get Izzy on board - just for the fans? Is that a lot to ask for a reunion tour? Hey if they really want to bury the hatchet, no need to even offer to sell Izzy his stake in the band back, just write a new contract so that they can split the revenue equally like partners again. It would be a new beginning for the band after years of legal and ego motivated squabbling." Besides, it could only have helped their cause from a marketing, publicity and monetary standpoint.

The rumor from GnR "insiders" is that Izzy was offered an insulting sum of money on par with the hired help - which as a co-founder of the band, he naturally said fuck off to. Whether this rumor is true or not, who knows. Izzy doesn't seem to have diva tendencies so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt with this whole thing compared to the redhead and sellouts like Duff and Slash.

 “This is right before I left - demoting me to some lower position. They were gonna cut my percentage of royalties down. I was like ‘Fuck you! I’ve been there from day one, why should I do that? Fuck you, I’ll go play the Whiskey’. That’s what happened. It was insane.”

http://teamrock.com/feature/2016-11-07/izzy-stradlin-in-too-deep

Seems pretty clear that Axl and Slash were legally maneuvering Izzy to hired help prior to his quitting. That was the final straw before he decided to quit. Who can blame the guy?  He was going to be legally demoted whether he liked it or not and Axl was even going as far as releasing press releases to MTV stating that Dave Navarro was being considered as a replacement for Izzy....unless he gave in and signed the contract. This is what these clowns were trying to do to the co-founder and one of the main songwriters of the band. No wonder he told them to fuck off.

Also mostly true.

Given that Slash and Duff only are in a better legal position than Izzy due to sheer luck for the most part (because they certainly weren't very smart either when it came to making business decisions back then) and that Izzy was given a pretty shitty deal by Axl and Slash*, one would think they'd at least consider paying him an adequate amount of money to make up for past injustices.

 

*Obviously, Axl and Slash would probably feel very differently about this. These two used to complain a lot about Izzy not "putting in the work", not taking things seriously enough etc. Which I also can understand to a certain extent. For a workaholic like Slash, who according to various people got up in the morning and was already doing business on the phone for hours  before lunch time even when he was a junkie, seeing one guy in the band not take part in band business and instead driving his bike around in the desert was probably severely vexing. Still, trying to demote your friend, band co-founder and one of the main song writers with some lame ass contract is a pretty messed up thing to do. The solution would have been to sit down and have a heart to heart with everyone involved and I'm sure they could have worked something out. But they've always been morons who failed at communication, all of them.

 

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

I moved this post from the show thread, for not derailing it.

Remember that promo video before the "big announcement", the one that erased Izzy and Steven from history? It couldn't have been any more telling, yet there were people here still expecting that the announcement would have to do with the anniversary/AFD5 and then they were disappointed because it didn't.

Then that promo was forgotten and hopes got up again about the Apollo show almost out of nothing. Yes, I know, this time we had the billboards... but on the other hand, everything else was pointing to the opposite. And I'm sure that even without the billboards, people would have still expected something special.

I understand that this is a forum of die-hard fans who want and hope for more from their favourite band, but I think that some people choose to get delusional and then be let down. I'd like more too, but I see it as it is and don't expect much.

Exactly. I never believed for one second anything of importance was going to happen for this show and as a result I also don't feel angry or let down by it.

I didn't even listen to it, to be honest. At this point, I just don't really care about what they're doing anymore as long as everything stays the same.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Frey

[Cruel Intentions]

Steven burned his bridges after airing all the dirty laundry after his last appearance on the tour, unfortunately, otherwise I'm almost positive he would've been there last night. Izzy, I never expected. The fact that Axl didn't even once reference the 30th anniversary of Appetite last night was very disappointing, but also very telling as far as where he sees the band is right now. I, of course, held out hope that at midnight they would have done something special, but it was just the same old business as usual. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Cruel Intentions

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

Just now, Cruel Intentions said:

Steven burned his bridges after airing all the dirty laundry after his last appearance on the tour, unfortunately, otherwise I'm almost positive he would've been there last night. Izzy, I never expected. The fact that Axl didn't even once reference the 30th anniversary of Appetite last night was very disappointing, but also very telling as far as where he sees the band is right now. 

Agreed.  Much as I love Steven and think he's the best-fit drummer for this band (as far as groove goes, who knows what the cold hard truth is of having to to actually work with the guy long term?), he has absolutely no filter and no restraint and that does him no favours with getting back on board.  He's way, way too indiscreet for someone like Axl who CAN rely on Slash and Duff to keep their mouths shut.  Push Frank down the stairs?  Get Steven Tyler in as singer?  Come on.  We know he's joking, but you keep that shit to yourself.  You don't blurt it out over the radio.  Slash used to be be pretty free and easy with his words in interviews too, but that was a long time ago, and I think he's learned his lesson there.  Steven is never gonna learn, bless him.  I feel sorry for him though.  I wish there was some way they could work it out.

[thunderram]

9 minutes ago, Cruel Intentions said:

but it was just the same old business as usual. 

 

Not completely. They did play a FREE show to 'around' 1500 people that was live streamed to any fan that wanted to hear it, right? That's certainly not BAU.

[EvanG]

2 hours ago, Cruel Intentions said:

Steven burned his bridges after airing all the dirty laundry after his last appearance on the tour

If this is true then these guys are fucking losers because Steven didn't say anything offensive in any way after his last appearance, at least not publicly as far as I know of. I've had this discussion before on here, the guy was merely honest without insulting or badmouthing anyone. In fact, he commended everyone in GnR.

[Natty]

today is my birthday. just came home from dinner with friends. 

Afd and me are both born on 21 st july  what a fuckin joke this apollo show was. they shouldnt have done anything if steven and izzy were not meant to be there. who cares about an appetite show with only 3 members??? 

they should have left it out. better than what they did now. Hard to understand what the matter is between big 3 and izzy. and for the f*cks sake please fire frank. he is just not 1% GNR like. stevie can handle the show or share duties with sorum. 

[Tom-Ass]

20 minutes ago, Natty said:

today is my birthday. just came home from dinner with friends. 

Afd and me are both born on 21 st july  what a fuckin joke this apollo show was. they shouldnt have done anything if steven and izzy were not meant to be there. who cares about an appetite show with only 3 members??? 

they should have left it out. better than what they did now. Hard to understand what the matter is between big 3 and izzy. and for the f*cks sake please fire frank. he is just not 1% GNR like. stevie can handle the show or share duties with sorum. 

#FireFrank  Add it to your signature

[DieselDaisy]

For the Axl diehards, Izzy and Adler have assumed the role Slash and Duff used to have c. 1996 - 2015. They are not liked by Axl so they cannot be liked by Axl's fans. - ironic perhaps considering Izzy was the first to play in Axl's new bands.

[jettesnel]

24 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

For the Axl diehards, Izzy and Adler have assumed the role Slash and Duff used to have c. 1996 - 2015. They are not liked by Axl so they cannot be liked by Axl's fans. - ironic perhaps considering Izzy was the first to play in Axl's new bands.

Not sure what a Axl diehard is, but based on the posts written on this forum,  Izzy and Steven are very liked by axl's fans...

[Fourteenbeers]

8 minutes ago, jettesnel said:

Not sure what a Axl diehard is, but based on the posts written on this forum,  Izzy and Steven are very liked by axl's fans...

The correct term is nutswinger. Izzy and Steven are not liked by Axl's  nutswingers. Axl's fans can like them (and many of them do) 

[DieselDaisy]

I think also there is more of an element of beating Stradlin/Adler over the head to legitimise/justify the 'reunion', i.e. ''Adler is a drug addict'', ''Stradlin's guitar was turned off' (to justify their absence). It was like this when Slash was absent and balmy nugnr/Axl fans would decimate his guitar/songwriting skills. I wonder where all those people are now haha? Like people who voted for Nixon post-Watergate I suppose?

[Blackstar]

I don't know what was happening here before the reunion and how many people/Axl fans were diminishing Slash's importance, but now I don't see the description of an "Axl nutswinger"(in regards to Izzy) applying to more than five forum members. There is a bigger number of people bashing Steven, but they're not all Axl fans.

There's one (1) Fortus fan (who may be a troll or not) who says how much Fortus is better than Izzy etc and 2-3 others saying Izzy couldn't play guitar, his guitar was turned off etc; and people react like it's an army of "Axl nutswingers".  Sometimes I think that people like to have ghosts to fight against...

There are also some who try to justify Izzy's absence by playing the "he quit the partnership" and "he doesn't like to tour" cards, but without disregarding Izzy's contributions. Some more are happy with the current lineup and don't care about Izzy not being there, but they don't talk negatively about him at all. And many others who like Izzy.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Blackstar

[Modano09]

46 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I don't know what was happening here before the reunion and how many people/Axl fans were diminishing Slash's importance, but now I don't see the description of an "Axl nutswinger"(in regards to Izzy) applying to more than five forum members. There is a bigger number of people bashing Steven, but they're not all Axl fans.

There's one (1) Fortus fan (who may be a troll or not) who says how much Fortus is better than Izzy etc and 2-3 others saying Izzy couldn't play guitar, his guitar was turned off etc; and people react like it's an army of "Axl nutswingers".  Sometimes I think that people like to have ghosts to fight against...

There are also some who try to justify Izzy's absence by playing the "he quit the partnership" and "he doesn't like to tour" cards, but without disregarding Izzy's contributions. Some more are happy with the current lineup and don't care about Izzy not being there, but they don't talk negatively about him at all. And many others who like Izzy.

Do you think Izzy should have to pay back what he was paid for his share of the partnership if he wants it back?

[RONIN]

 

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

I don't know what was happening here before the reunion and how many people/Axl fans were diminishing Slash's importance, but now I don't see the description of an "Axl nutswinger"(in regards to Izzy) applying to more than five forum members. There is a bigger number of people bashing Steven, but they're not all Axl fans.

There's one (1) Fortus fan (who may be a troll or not) who says how much Fortus is better than Izzy etc and 2-3 others saying Izzy couldn't play guitar, his guitar was turned off etc; and people react like it's an army of "Axl nutswingers".  Sometimes I think that people like to have ghosts to fight against...

There are also some who try to justify Izzy's absence by playing the "he quit the partnership" and "he doesn't like to tour" cards, but without disregarding Izzy's contributions. Some more are happy with the current lineup and don't care about Izzy not being there, but they don't talk negatively about him at all. And many others who like Izzy.

Fair point. I'll admit, many of us have a bit of PTSD from the way these forums used to be 

 

[RONIN]

15 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

Do you think Izzy should have to pay back what he was paid for his share of the partnership if he wants it back?

I think he should be given the option to purchase it back. But that will never happen, because his stake in the band is too lucrative to sell back.

[willl]

4 minutes ago, Modano09 said:

Do you think Izzy should have to pay back what he was paid for his share of the partnership if he wants it back?

No. If Axl hadn't gone loco and tried demoting him, and if the others could have sobered up like Izzy did, then maybe Izzy wouldn't have wanted to quit this circus in the first place. Instead of us all enduring the never-ending Chinese Democracy world tour we could have had 10+ GNR albums by now, instead of 10+ Izzy Stradlin solo albums

I don't mean to downplay the importance of Axl, Slash or Duff.  They're equally important to Guns N Roses success as Izzy, but as a GNR fan I'm once again seeing the Axl diehards use technicalities to try and win arguments just like they did in the Chi Dem era.

"Technically the setlist is different, they changed one song"
"Technically they never called it a reunion"
"Technically they didn't advertise this as an Appetite For Destruction anniversary gig"

Whatever, we've had 20 years of this and some of us just see through it, or don't care enough to defend Axl quite so vehemently. I'm still a huge Axl fan and would love nothing more than a new record from him, or at least setlist overhauls beyond one or two alts, but realistically I know that it's very unlikely. I take whatever scraps I can get from GNR, and I enjoy the regular music from Izzy

I have my complaints about Izzy too, mainly just that he doesn't tour his solo material, ever.

[ludurigan]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

I don't know what was happening here before the reunion and how many people/Axl fans were diminishing Slash's importance, but now I don't see the description of an "Axl nutswinger"(in regards to Izzy) applying to more than five forum members. There is a bigger number of people bashing Steven, but they're not all Axl fans.

There's one (1) Fortus fan (who may be a troll or not) who says how much Fortus is better than Izzy etc and 2-3 others saying Izzy couldn't play guitar, his guitar was turned off etc; and people react like it's an army of "Axl nutswingers".  Sometimes I think that people like to have ghosts to fight against...

There are also some who try to justify Izzy's absence by playing the "he quit the partnership" and "he doesn't like to tour" cards, but without disregarding Izzy's contributions. Some more are happy with the current lineup and don't care about Izzy not being there, but they don't talk negatively about him at all. And many others who like Izzy.

you forgot about the zillions of people who were not old enough pre-1992 and grew up watching and listening to the 1992-1993 tour/videos nonsense thinking that that was "GNR at the top", "GNR at their best" or whatever

these kids (now grown men and women) have very little idea of what GNR was before that circus illusion tour and before the circus million dollars videos and the axl piano ballads. very little idea.

there is also of course the zillions of kids who discovered GNR after 2001 via Axl solo band

I would say that a lot of these "kids" are happy ignoring izzy and steven (as they were ignoring duff and slash pre-guns n alien tour) because they fell in love with "GNR" with no izzy and steven (and no duff and slash) in sight.

 

Edited July 22, 2017 by ludurigan

[Natty]

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

I agree 100fucking%

P.S. Happy Birthday!

thank you 

[RONIN]

3 hours ago, ludurigan said:

you forgot about the zillions of people who were not old enough pre-1992 and grew up watching and listening to the 1992-1993 tour/videos nonsense thinking that that was "GNR at the top", "GNR at their best" or whatever

these kids (now grown men and women) have very little idea of what GNR was before that circus illusion tour and before the circus million dollars videos and the axl piano ballads. very little idea.

there is also of course the zillions of kids who discovered GNR after 2001 via Axl solo band

I would say that a lot of these "kids" are happy ignoring izzy and steven (as they were ignoring duff and slash pre-guns n alien tour) because they fell in love with "GNR" with no izzy and steven (and no duff and slash) in sight.

 

Do you even like Illusions? 

Personally I love GnR around "Lies" and the 1st leg of Illusions (1991). To me, that feels like peak GnR.

I guess GnR is like a sports team where every generation prefers a different lineup - whichever one they grew up on. 

Great post btw.

[Padme]

16 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I moved this post from the show thread, for not derailing it.

Remember that promo video before the "big announcement", the one that erased Izzy and Steven from history? It couldn't have been any more telling, yet there were people here still expecting that the announcement would have to do with the anniversary/AFD5 and then they were disappointed because it didn't.

Then that promo was forgotten and hopes got up again about the Apollo show almost out of nothing. Yes, I know, this time we had the billboards... but on the other hand, everything else was pointing to the opposite. And I'm sure that even without the billboards, people would have still expected something special.

I understand that this is a forum of die-hard fans who want and hope for more from their favourite band, but I think that some people choose to get delusional and then be let down. I'd like more too, but I see it as it is and don't expect much.

 

If the AFD5 will never happen, then they better stop milking AFD. That's the issue here. There shouldn't be any billboard not any mention of any kind about AFD. They should just stick with the bullet logo or some other logo. The advertising of this Apollo Theater show was misleading. Don't blame the fans!!!

We know that Beta confirmed that neither Izzy nor Adler were part of the show. Why was she asked about them? Because she started the whole thing when she posted about the AFD Anniversary and tag Izzy and Adler in her IG. The fans didn't ask Beta to post anything about AFD. As for people still thinking or hoping for the AFD5 reunion, well, there will always be fans hoping for that to happen at any given show. The same way fans hope for a new song or some UYI deep cut.

The US Tour starts July 27th. They could've scheduled this Apollo Theater show on July 23th (Slash birthday) or 24th. And just promote the upcoming US Tour. But They didn't do it that way.

[Fourteenbeers]

5 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I don't know what was happening here before the reunion and how many people/Axl fans were diminishing Slash's importance, but now I don't see the description of an "Axl nutswinger"(in regards to Izzy) applying to more than five forum members. There is a bigger number of people bashing Steven, but they're not all Axl fans.

There's one (1) Fortus fan (who may be a troll or not) who says how much Fortus is better than Izzy etc and 2-3 others saying Izzy couldn't play guitar, his guitar was turned off etc; and people react like it's an army of "Axl nutswingers".  Sometimes I think that people like to have ghosts to fight against...

There are also some who try to justify Izzy's absence by playing the "he quit the partnership" and "he doesn't like to tour" cards, but without disregarding Izzy's contributions. Some more are happy with the current lineup and don't care about Izzy not being there, but they don't talk negatively about him at all. And many others who like Izzy.

I have give you props for keeping it cool and objective, no matter what.  I wasn't trying to imply that there are armies of Axl's nutswingers (or Izzy-haters) in this forum, because obviously, there are not. I was trying to differentiate what is a fan and what is well....something else.