Apollo Show - Izzy & Steven Not Playing - Argue About It HERE

[Blackstar]

2 hours ago, EvanG said:

I wouldn't agree that grunge was a fad that faded away quickly, we got so many grunge wannabe bands after 1994. I guess it's hard to pinpoint what grunge was anyway because even in 1992 all the bands that were labeled grunge didn't sound anything alike, they just looked the same more or less. But how many Cobain lookalikes didn't we see after 1994 getting popular? It wasn't until that terrible nu-metal became popular that it faded away a bit more.

Yeah, but how long was that? 3-4 years. Also, although those bands were popular, the "hottest" things during that period were Green Day and industrial rock. And, like you said, "grunge" was a very vague term anyway (I remember those bands suddenly being called grunge just because they were all from Seattle).

GnR had some influence for a short period, between 1988-91. There was a shift towards roots rock 'n' roll"; The Black Crowes, although different to GnR, can be considered part of that direction. Also, pre-existing bands gave up glam and tried to sound and look more "seriously" rock 'n' roll, and there was a bunch of new bands playing a mix of sleaze and roots rock and engaging respective looks. The problem was that most of those bands didn't have 1/3 of GnR's talent and weren't half as genuine as them.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Blackstar

[tsinindy]

20 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Not sure how much you know or understand about the music business but yes, AFD outsold Illusions overall as a single record but Illusions have sold about 15 million copies each....combined over 30 million....give or take...and that's about what AFD has sold.  Plus, Illusions also bolstered AFD sales....pretty sure AFD had nowhere near 30 million sales when Illusions came out.  And your opinion doesn't really count here.  Guns N' Roses sold more combined records after Illusions was released, than before....that includes AFD, Lies and both Illusions albums....so yes, absolutely, not even debatable....they were a much bigger and more popular band AFTER Illusions was released.  Not sure how old you are but I lived through it as a teenager.  I was there. 

This is 1000% accurate and I was 16 when AFD came out, 20 when I saw them at Deer Creek in 1991.  

[Tucknroll]

I saw them in Nashville and Richard was awesome and had his moments to shine but I'm just saying I can play izzys parts. I also think slash liled to drown izzy out and maybe he feels like Richard is stepping on his lead guitar toes. I just don't see how Richard doesn't get bored

[Tucknroll]

I don't get what's stupid about thinking a great guitarist would get bored playing rhythm.  I bet he knows slash will never play rhythm for him on a record.  He only did it for izzy maybe once on nightrain and we know the fit he threw when axl added his pal to sympathy for the devil

[EvanG]

22 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Of course grunge was a fad.  It was just about dead and done by 1996ish...by then, rock either was on the lighter side (Dave Mathews Band, Sublime, Barenaked Ladies,etc) or the heavier side (Rage Against the Machine, NIN, Tool, etc)  Pearl Jam was still somewhat popular but they were about the only band from the Grunge era that still was.

 

 

It was a fad, it wasn't even a music genre really, but it didn't quickly fade away, as you said in your previous post. In the mid tot late 90s you had many so-called alternative guitar bands having a lot of success that sounded and acted the part of a lot of early 90s bands that were considered ''grunge''. Bush, the Smashing Pumpkins, Weezer, Silverchair, Everclear, Live, Garbage, Matchbox 20, Creed, Goo Goo Dolls, Semisonic, Fuel, Nickelback, and many more, were all bands that more or less popped up after Nirvana. (well, some of those bands were already around but the grunge thing made it easier for them to get attention.)

 

27 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yeah, but how long was that? 3-4 years. Also, although those bands were popular, the "hottest" things during that period were Green Day and industrial rock.

You've always had bands like that, even after 2000, but like I said, most of the remaining years of the 90s it were the ''alternative'' rock bands (that I mention above) that were very successful.

[Blackstar]

5 minutes ago, EvanG said:

It was a fad, it wasn't even a music genre really, but it didn't quickly fade away, as you said in your previous post. In the mid tot late 90s you had many so-called alternative guitar bands having a lot of success that sounded and acted the part of a lot of early 90s bands that were considered ''grunge''. Bush, the Smashing Pumpkins, Weezer, Silverchair, Everclear, Live, Garbage, Matchbox 20, Creed, Goo Goo Dolls, Semisonic, Fuel, Nickelback, and many more, were all bands that more or less popped up after Nirvana. (well, some of those bands were already around but the grunge thing made it easier for them to get attention.)

 

You've always had bands like that, even after 2000, but like I said, most of the remaining years of the 90s it were the ''alternative'' rock bands (that I mention above) that were very successful.

The only things all these bands had in common were that they were guitar based bands and they were all labelled "alternative", which was an even more vague and very problematic term (included almost everything, from the bands you mentioned to RATM, RHCP, Tool, etc).

[Ace Nova]

42 minutes ago, EvanG said:

It was a fad, it wasn't even a music genre really, but it didn't quickly fade away, as you said in your previous post. In the mid tot late 90s you had many so-called alternative guitar bands having a lot of success that sounded and acted the part of a lot of early 90s bands that were considered ''grunge''. Bush, the Smashing Pumpkins, Weezer, Silverchair, Everclear, Live, Garbage, Matchbox 20, Creed, Goo Goo Dolls, Semisonic, Fuel, Nickelback, and many more, were all bands that more or less popped up after Nirvana. (well, some of those bands were already around but the grunge thing made it easier for them to get attention.)

 

You've always had bands like that, even after 2000, but like I said, most of the remaining years of the 90s it were the ''alternative'' rock bands (that I mention above) that were very successful.

Yeah but none of those bands were considered grunge....not by my generation.  They were pop rock/alt rock bands....huge difference between that and grunge....grunge bands to us were Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Stone Temple Pilots and a handful of others.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Kasanova King

[DieselDaisy]

Grunge influenced everything, numetal (unfortunately), Britpop, punk revival and punkpop - most predominately 'alternative' which become a bit of a dumping ground for grunge and grunge influenced bands (and certain wack jobs who did not really fit anywhere). It even saw hitherto thrash metal and cheesy rock bands acclimatise their sound to try and keep up with the kids. It was really - that and Britpop on the other side of the pond - the last credible movement in rock music.

 

[killuridols]

The Smashing Pumpkins and Garbage "grunge"??

no way!

[marlingrl03]

50 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Yeah but none of those bands were considered grunge....not by my generation.  They were pop rock/alt rock bands....huge difference between that and grunge....grunge bands to us were Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Stone Temple Pilots and a handful of others.

100% agree! No other bands but those you mentioned are true grunge...I also was a teen when grunge was born!

[killuridols]

19 minutes ago, marlingrl03 said:

100% agree! No other bands but those you mentioned are true grunge...I also was a teen when grunge was born!

Me too, lol. Also grunge has an aesthetics that is pretty well known and it became a fashion style.

I think it started to disappear around 1995 and Kurt's death was probably the catalyst.

[tsinindy]

1 hour ago, Kasanova King said:

Yeah but none of those bands were considered grunge....not by my generation.  They were pop rock/alt rock bands....huge difference between that and grunge....grunge bands to us were Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Stone Temple Pilots and a handful of others.

Smashing Pumpkins are most definitely grumge....none of the others he mentioned were though.   Pumpkins on Singles Soundtrack pure grunge.  

[RONIN]

3 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

Not sure how much you know or understand about the music business but yes, AFD outsold Illusions overall as a single record but Illusions have sold about 15 million copies each....combined over 30 million....give or take...and that's about what AFD has sold.  Plus, Illusions also bolstered AFD sales....pretty sure AFD had nowhere near 30 million sales when Illusions came out.  And your opinion doesn't really count here.  Guns N' Roses sold more combined records after Illusions was released, than before....that includes AFD, Lies and both Illusions albums....so yes, absolutely, not even debatable....they were a much bigger and more popular band AFTER Illusions was released.  Not sure how old you are but I lived through it as a teenager.  I was there. 

So is there any truth to GnR becoming massively uncool by 1993 with teens when grunge was at it's peak in the US? I've had friends in the UK mention that GnR's fall from grace there was sudden - they became an uncool band soon after grunge hit there.

1 hour ago, Kasanova King said:

Yeah but none of those bands were considered grunge....not by my generation.  They were pop rock/alt rock bands....huge difference between that and grunge....grunge bands to us were Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Stone Temple Pilots and a handful of others.

Post-grunge and alt rock were a subset of Grunge though - a lot of those bands mentioned were influenced either partially or completely by the Seattle movement. They're even sort of grouped together by streaming sites like Spotify. 

GnR on the other hand are grouped with a lot of the shitty hair-metal acts of the day on Spotify which makes me wonder if their algorithm is weighted heavily on Appetite and less on Illusions. 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by RONIN

[Ace Nova]

4 minutes ago, tsinindy said:

Smashing Pumpkins are most definitely grumge....none of the others he mentioned were though.   Pumpkins on Singles Soundtrack pure grunge.  

Smashing Pumpkins were "sort of" grunge, had a few "grunge" sounding songs and became popular during that era but they were closer to alt  ....or at least evolved to alt rock....I mean, some of their music is full of synths, layers...even orchestras....etc....

 

[DieselDaisy]

16 minutes ago, RONIN said:

So is there any truth to GnR becoming massively uncool by 1993 with teens when grunge was at it's peak in the US? I've had friends in the UK mention that GnR's fall from grace there was sudden - they became an uncool band soon after grunge hit there.

Very unpopular here - especially when Britpop emerged which was c. 1994. Being a GN'R fan was something you rather hid or face ridicule.

[Sydney Fan]

20 minutes ago, RONIN said:

So is there any truth to GnR becoming massively uncool by 1993 with teens when grunge was at it's peak in the US? I've had friends in the UK mention that GnR's fall from grace there was sudden - they became an uncool band soon after grunge hit there.

Post-grunge and alt rock were a subset of Grunge though - a lot of those bands mentioned were influenced either partially or completely by the Seattle movement. They're even sort of grouped together by streaming sites like Spotify. 

GnR on the other hand are grouped with a lot of the shitty hair-metal acts of the day on Spotify which makes me wonder if their algorithm is weighted heavily on Appetite and less on Illusions. 

 

 

As a teenager during this time period, I think by 94 is when people lost interest., the same would be said for metallica as well. In 93 the band where still on their Illusions tour so they still had a lot of interest. In 94 you had a lot of other grunge bands really making an impact, and other alt bands such as danzig, faith no more, heavier music by pantera/prong making an impact as well. I think Pantera were a lot in music magazines at that stage. So from memory between 94-96 grunge/alt rock was still making an impact. I think people lost interest in guns as by 93 they were well known for coming on late, riots and I think grunge/alt rock bands tended to treat the fans better. Such as coming on stage ontime and doing record store signings. Then you had other major artists like jeff bucklley as well. Brit-pop was big in Australia but that didn't start until 95 and Oasis was the leader of the pack.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Sydney Fan

[RONIN]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Very unpopular here - especially when Britpop emerged which was c. 1994. Being a GN'R fan was something you rather hid or face ridicule.

Do you have any guesses as to why the perception of Guns had shifted so much in the UK? I thought they might have been more forgiving to the "pompousness" of GnR's image and music (especially with the stylistic changes towards balladry and prog-ish elements on UYI).

[Ace Nova]

11 minutes ago, RONIN said:

So is there any truth to GnR becoming massively uncool by 1993 with teens when grunge was at it's peak in the US? I've had friends in the UK mention that GnR's fall from grace there was sudden - they became an uncool band soon after grunge hit there.

Post-grunge and alt rock were a subset of Grunge though - they were influenced either partially or completely by the Seattle movement. They're even sort of grouped together by streaming sites like Spotify. 

GnR on the other hand are grouped with a lot of the shitty hair-metal acts of the day on Spotify which makes me wonder if their algorithm is weighted heavily on Appetite and less on Illusions. 

 

 

The entire "GN'R became uncool when Nirvana hit the scene" rumor is way over blown.  There was a pretty big feud between the bands at the time...that part is true...and Nirvana tried to portray themselves as being "cool" and tried to portray GN'R as being corporate sellouts....but that only went so far with true fans.  GN'R were still selling out stadiums/arenas with zero difficulty right up until they themselves decided to stop touring.  And although sad but true, the entire feud, etc pretty much ended after Kurt Cobain killed himself. 

As far as grouping GN'R, that's somewhat difficult because they started out as "sleaze rock, glam for a short while....then quickly (in a matter of months) separated themselves from that scene and became a rather unique band at the time....pretty straightforward rock n' roll band, with a (real) in your face attitude....and that's what makes them probably the most important band from that era....they were pretty much the last real, straightforward hard rock/classic rock n' roll band.

 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, RONIN said:

Do you have any guesses as to why the perception of Guns had shifted so much in the UK? I thought they might have been more forgiving to the "pompousness" of GnR's image and music (especially with the stylistic changes towards balladry and prog-ish elements on UYI).

They just looked like a lot of egotistical wankers and people hated Axl really - similar view as in America with the grunge movements.

I will say one thing which might be pertinent. Britpop was a rejection of 'Americaness' (and this included grunge as well as Guns). Bands like Pulp, Oasis and Blur spoke about British themes and dressed like British ''mods'' so people could relate to them. Slash looking like a swaggery rock dinosaur and Axl with his multiple costume changes and big budget videos and teeth implants - well, how were the British people supposed to relate to this any longer? 

 

[Blackstar]

In the 80s we used "alternative" as a synonym to "independent music scene"/"indie" (the latter was most commonly used - in some cases, we also used the term "new/modern rock" ) and didn't represent a specific genre, but acts who 1) were recording in small/independent labels mainly because --> 2) they played music that was either "alternative" to what was mainstream then or too artsy/avand-gard to become mainstream; this included not only rock in its narrow sense, but also pioneering industrial/electronica bands, guitar based British pop, dark wave/goth etc, and 3) were not metal or classic rock (or at least incorporated other elements besides these).

When Nirvana and Mudhoney emerged in the late 80s, we knew them as the main bands of the Seattle indie scene; we didn't use the term grunge yet (I've read it pre-existed and used by Mudhoney, but it wasn't broadly known then). And when Nirvana became successful, it was an indie/alternative band that made it into the mainstream like R.E.M. had before them. Then the other Seattle bands came, and, because they also had the hard/heavy sound in common (although everything else different), the critics popularized and used the term "grunge" for all of them to describe an "alternative" movement that became mainstream, even though Pearl Jam and AIC didn't originate from the indie/alternative circuit.

So "grunge" came from alternative, not the other way around. Then alternative was used as an umbrella for everything that emerged simultaneously with Nirvana and after them, but in fact it meant nothing, because it wasn't alternative to anything.

[RONIN]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

They just looked like a lot of egotistical wankers and people hated Axl really - similar view as in America with the grunge movements.

I will say one thing which might be pertinent. Britpop was a rejection of 'Americaness' (and this included grunge as well as Guns). Bands like Pulp, Oasis and Blur spoke about British themes and dressed like British ''mods'' so people could relate to them. Slash looking like a swaggery rock dinosaur and Axl with his multiple costume changes and big budget videos and teeth implants - well, how were the British people supposed to relate to this any longer? 

 

I do remember the brit pop movement making its way to MTV in the US. I was an Oasis fan in the 90's 

Essentially from what you're saying, their drama/image had begun to overshadow the music in the minds of young people in the UK. Therefore, even if they had released an Appetite style record, GnR would still have been perceived as "out of touch" and rejected for all their rock star trappings. 

 

 

[RONIN]

8 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

In the 80s we used "alternative" as a synonym to "independent music scene"/"indie" (the latter was most commonly used - in some cases, we also used the term "new/modern rock" ) and didn't represent a specific genre, but acts who 1) were recording in small/independent labels mainly because --> 2) they played music that was either "alternative" to what was mainstream then or too artsy/avand-gard to become mainstream; this included not only rock in its narrow sense, but also pioneering industrial/electronica bands, guitar based British pop, dark wave/goth etc, and 3) were not metal or classic rock (or at least incorporated other elements besides these).

When Nirvana and Mudhoney emerged in the late 80s, we knew them as the main bands of the Seattle indie scene; we didn't use the term grunge yet (I've read it pre-existed and used by Mudhoney, but it wasn't broadly known then). And when Nirvana became successful, it was an indie/alternative band that made it into the mainstream like R.E.M. had before them. Then the other Seattle bands came, and, because they also had the hard/heavy sound in common (although everything else different), the critics popularized and used the term "grunge" for all of them to describe an "alternative" movement that became mainstream, even though Pearl Jam and AIC didn't originate from the indie/alternative circuit.

So "grunge" came from alternative, not the other way around. Then alternative was used as an umbrella for everything that emerged simultaneously with Nirvana and after them, but in fact it meant nothing, because it wasn't alternative to anything.

Interesting insight. 

Couldn't pre-AFD GnR be considered an indie/alternative band since their sound was underground at the time? They were coming up the ranks with bands like Jane's Addiction (which is still considered an indie/alt rock band) - Guns just broke into the mainstream while Jane's Addiction remained a lower profile band with a cult following. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, RONIN said:

I do remember the brit pop movement making its way to MTV in the US. I was an Oasis fan in the 90's 

Essentially from what you're saying, their drama/image had begun to overshadow the music in the minds of young people in the UK. Therefore, even if they had released an Appetite style record, GnR would still have been perceived as "out of touch" and rejected for all their rock star trappings. 

 

 

The only thing I could see them doing to stay relevant is if they let the Izzy influence run amok and become a Black Crowes type band - the Lies style you might say.

[Ace Nova]

1 minute ago, RONIN said:

I do remember the brit pop movement making its way to MTV in the US. I was an Oasis fan in the 90's 

Essentially from what you're saying, their drama/image had begun to overshadow the music in the minds of young people in the UK. Therefore, even if they had released an Appetite style record, GnR would still have been perceived as "out of touch" and rejected for all their rock star trappings. 

 

 

I can't speak for the UK but in the U.S. and Italy (where I spent my summers during the 90's) people were going crazy waiting on a new record from GN'R.  Every couple of weeks a new rumor would surface on a radio station, etc. about the band's whereabouts, possibility of new music, etc.  It wasn't until several years later when people realized that Slash and the rest of the band were no longer in GN'R that most of the public gave up on them.  And the icing on the cake was when Axl released Oh My God....that song was not well received at all by the general public. 

[willl]

19 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I will say one thing which might be pertinent. Britpop was a rejection of 'Americaness' (and this included grunge as well as Guns). Bands like Pulp, Oasis and Blur spoke about British themes and dressed like British ''mods'' so people could relate to them. Slash looking like a swaggery rock dinosaur and Axl with his multiple costume changes and big budget videos and teeth implants - well, how were the British people supposed to relate to this any longer?

Interesting opinion, but I think you may be downplaying just how great those British bands were The majority of those albums have stood the test of time just like Appetite has. Others like Stone Roses and Ocean Colour Scene had some fantastic singles/albums too which are remembered to this day. & just because you mentioned them I'm gonna drop this in here....

Still awesome