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Scream of the Butterfly

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  1. He went around talking about it in the late 90s, which Axl wasn't too happy about: "I appreciate all the publicity he’s been giving us, but shut up already!"
  2. Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

    You would need to study a very large number of people to find out whether there is any significant correlation between sleeping habits and pedophilia, but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people who sleep in the same bed with children in their care are not pedophiles. If in your mind man+boy+bed=sex, then of course in your mind he's guilty. However, it's completely circular logic and doesn't contribute anything to the debate to argue that his defenders don't care about what truly happened because they think it was innocent. As long as it hasn't been established by both sides that each and every person who sleeps next to a child is a pedophile child abuser, there is nothing to prevent an honest person from believing it was an innocent practise. You are repeating the same points that were already addressed earlier in the thread. As was already pointed out, he wasn't an odd man but was considered a friend and part of the family. Jackson said he never invited children to sleep in his room and that it was the children who wanted to stay with him. As far as I know there is no evidence to the contrary. Then why was it so important to see and hear the accusers if not because of their appearance and speaking voices? Were you reading their auras? I can see how the documentary was emotionally appealing, but if you were previously convinced that Jackson was innocent or on the fence about it, the documentary didn't offer any rational basis for changing your mind.
  3. Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

    So if being a man with a beard was associated with being a pedophile, you would then conclude that all men with beards are pedophiles? As far as I know that person was never accused of sexual assault of any kind. Are we now going to assume that anybody who thinks Jackson was innocent must be a sexual offender themselves? I'm well capable of entertaining the idea that he's guilty and I just did in my previous post. I just don't see any evidence that would allow me to draw that conclusion. I'm sure if the accusers were ugly and had annoying speaking voices, not half as many people would believe them. But since they were reasonably good-looking and pleasant and were able to deliver their stories in a manner that kept viewers hooked for four hours, people want to support them.
  4. Unofficial GNR Social Media Update / Discussion

    I thought that was his official nickname that I never knew about.
  5. That's not what he wrote.
  6. Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

    Why wouldn't it be innocent? Unless you are already assuming that it involved sexual abuse, which is the very issue being debated. Not all people who defend Jackson are fans of his music. I remember discussing this issue with a classical violinist who didn't listen to any popular music around the time Bashir's documentary first aired. She was telling me about all the times she had herself slept in the same bed with friends' children and she thought it was plain stupid that anybody would attempt to sexualize such a thing. I would have more respect for people who have stopped playing or listening to him if they had done so in 1993 or whenever they first became aware of the accusations. To do so now is to jump on the bandwagon and I find it hard to see it as any kind of genuine statement for the victims. Of course people are free to not listen to whoever they like and it's their loss not mine. Myself, I would probably continue listening to him even if he was proven guilty, because why the hell not? It's not like he's going to molest more children because I'm listening to his music.
  7. Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

    I should add that I think Martin Bashir did a horribly bad job in Living With Michael Jackson. He seems baffled about everything as if it's the very first time he's ever had to come to terms with the fact that people are different and not everyone is following the same life script as he is. It's OK to be critical but he's critical and interrogating MJ in a manner that comes across as being completely closed-minded.
  8. Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

    No. He had a relationship with the gestational surrogate in the sense that they met and interacted and were part of each other's lives at least for the duration of the pregnancy. Whereas the egg donor was selected from a catalog without personal interaction. That is my understanding of it based on what I've seen and read, but I could be wrong. Do we know for certain that he lied about plastic surgery? Even if he did, it's not really something I would hold against him. It was nobody else's business how many surgeries he had. It would have been better to either tell the truth or refuse to comment at all, but it's nowhere in the same ballpark with lying about child sexual abuse.
  9. Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

    It certainly diverted attention away from Harvey Weinstein and the documentary Untouchable, which premiered the same day as LN. Apparently the gestational surrogate and the egg donor were two different people, so he's talking about two different mothers. I can see how it's confusing, especially since it appears that he's referring to the egg donor as "surrogate mother".
  10. Another wave of copyright strikes?

    I for one never bothered saving much anything because it was so much easier to just watch everything on YouTube. Plus, I don't think being a fan should be a constant struggle where you have to immediately save anything that you enjoy or else it's taken away from you. The whole thing is making me feel negatively about GNR to a point where I'm actually less likely to spend money on any official release. Without bootlegs and other unofficial material the whole fan experience is so much less fun.
  11. Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

    I'm sceptical of any attempt to determinate whether a person is lying based on non-verbal cues, but nonetheless found this video very interesting. For anybody who thinks Safechuck and Robson are such great actors to pull this off if they are lying, I'd suggest watching this.
  12. Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

    I disagree. As far as I know, MJ has never been accused of forcible rape or physical violence of any kind. Because of the amount of violence and sexual sadism, I think the things Axl was accused of were worse.
  13. Official GNR Social Media Update / Discussion

    When is Matt's book coming out? It's been over a year since he announced it.
  14. Leaving Neverland, Michael Jackson Documentary, HBO

    Oftentimes fans are just people with a great deal of knowledge about the artist in question. I would give more credit to a fan's well-educated opinion than the opinion of somebody who watched one totally onesided documentary and decided Jackson was guilty. As fans of GNR, many of us have no trouble believing Axl abused women or at least that it's possible that he did. We know first hand that being a fan doesn't mean that you have to blindly defend everything the artist ever did or refuse to believe anything bad about him. Why then would you assume that the fans of another artist are all incapable of critical thinking, or rabid dogs as somebody put it? From what I've seen, the fans, family members, and other defenders of MJ have been doing a pretty good job contradicting the accusations with facts. Thanks to their good work, I'm now increasingly convinced that both Robson and Safechuck are lying, and I've lost all respect for the director Dan Reed. It's still possible that either Robson or Safechuck or both were abused at some point in their lives by either Michael Jackson or somebody else. The problem is they had very little credibility to begin with and now it's gone. At this point, I wouldn't trust anything they say unless it can be independently verified.
  15. What's your unpopular GN'R opinion?

    To me, the lyrics of the song are enough evidence that at least for a moment there he was focused on happy childhood memories. But since you somehow interpret it to be about child abuse, you obviously don't agree.