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Lies They Tell

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  1. That's what I said. Did you even read my whole post? I talked about how it probably didn't fit the theme of CD.
  2. Why wasn't it included on the album? Probably because of the same reason why The General, Seven, Soulmonster and other A-listed songs weren't included. Because they wanted to save some big guns for the later albums. It's a pretty common thing in music business actually. Bands don't just put all of their best songs on one album. Sometimes they save some of the better songs for future albums. Sometimes certain songs work with some songs thematically better than with some other songs. They probably wanted to include Scraped on CD because they wanted to have an uplifting song. Perhaps Checkmate/Jackie Chan just wasn't thematically the kind of a song that they wanted to include on the album. Normally albums aren't just compilations of the best songs available. Those kind of records are called best of albums. But normally bands have a certain vision of an album. For example AFD was supposed to be a raw in your face rock n' roll album. That's why they didn't include for example Don't Cry on that album even though most would agree that it's a better song than Anything Goes. But Don't Cry didn't fit AFD and they probably also wanted to save some big guns for later. Same thing with Checkmate, The General etc... Those songs didn't fit the theme of CD and they wanted to save some of the better songs for future albums.
  3. The guy who said that GNR had a song called Going Down, before anyone else knew about that song, also mentioned these songs. So could this be the tracklist of CD2? Atlas Cuban Skies Goin' Down Jackie Chan Light My Fire Monstrosity Silk Worms Soul Monster The General Thyme Tonto
  4. Cause CD didn't have enough ballads? I get your point, but I also understand why they wanted to include some faster tempo songs on the album.
  5. No more AXL/DC? Looks like AC/DC have reunited with Brian Johnson.

    This is of course good news for Brian AC/DC fans. Personally I have no interest in AC/DC if it's not Axl/DC. So if this is the end of Axl/DC, all I can say is hopefully that means we'll get a new GNR album sooner.
  6. Yeah, I get your point of view. Just wanted to make it clear why people who hope that it won't be released aren't necessarily selfish in their hopes. Personally I think GNR is currently a more respected band than it's been in ages. Sure, we hardcore fans laugh at the bands inability to release new music. The general public on the other hand sees the band as a great classic rock band that isn't even expected to release new material. So the way I see it, a weird remix album can only hurt the bands image, unless the final version is MUCH better than the leaked demos would suggest. CD2 with Slash' and Duff's input on the other hand would be a whole different story. Great music from a classic band that nobody expected to release any more music could be very well received. But yeah, in the end it's a question of what matters more, the bands legacy or some random fans who might enjoy the remix album.
  7. How is that a fact? If you hate rasp, those vocals are the worst vocals by Axl since the 90's. Rasp is not the same as good. Not everybody even likes rasp. I like Axl's raspy vocals personally, but I still prefer his original take on TIL, cause the original vocals have way more emotion IMO. I think that kind of thinking has a lot to do with not wanting your favorite band to become a laughing stock. I might enjoy the remix album as a curiosity myself, but I'm still not sure if I want them to release it. GNR has done a lot to gain it's reputation back, so I'm not sure if I want them to release something that would make them look ridiculous. So it's not purely selfish in my opinion. It's also something that you think would be the best for GNR and in that sense best for all the GNR fans. I think most GNR fans want the general public to view GNR as a cool band, even if some don't care about the reputation of GNR one bit. Now of course I might be exaggerating the consequences of releasing the remix album. It might not necessarily affect GNR's reputation in any way. But I guess that is what people still fear about the release of that album. That it would make GNR a laughing stock. Personally I like Silkworms, Going Down and the This I Love remix. If those would have been on the remix album, I guess it wouldn't have been all bad. But the rest of the remixes... they're super meh. But who knows what the finished product would have sounded like. So I'm not totally against releasing it, if they add more great remixes, like the TIL one. But if it's gonna be just a half-arsed release, I don't think it's a good idea to release it. I don't want half-arsed releases from GNR in general. We've waited for CD2 a decade. I have no problem waiting longer as long as the end product is good. Maybe if the remix album would be released in some kind of a package, kinda like the AFD package was, with a lot of other unreleased stuff too, that might work better. But if they just released a half-arsed Chinese Democracy remix album out of the blue and that's it. I don't think it would be a very good idea. But that's just me.
  8. No, you're the one who was concerned about Axl trying to replicate Björk, NIN or Nirvana. Here's a reminder of what you said: "The problem is that he cant replicate the phenomena of Björk, NIN, Nirvana, etc... He never had it in him and he tried to force it with CD but it came out awful and too late. Björk is great but her time has passed too. I dont know what music Axl is currently into, but if it's stuff from the 90s that he is just catching up with now, he is wasting his time with that." I don't know if Björk has influenced or if it ever will influence Axl's songwriting. But neither am I concerned about that, cause I like all the Nirvana and NIN influences on CD. I'm sure that if Björk ever influences Axl's songwriting, it will be in a good way. I'm not calling fans idiots. It's a whole different thing to be a fan and to be someone who puts lunatic expectations on something. I believed in Axl's project too and I still love Chinese Democracy. Why? Because I didn't expect it to revolutionize music or anything. I just wanted great music and I got what I wanted. What's this weird shit about fair weather fans? I was there during the so called dark times too. I know what it was like. I downloaded most of the leaks too, except for a couple cause I didn't want to spoil the whole album. I had faith that the album will come out, so I didn't want to spoil the whole album before it's release. The problem with you is that you seem to think that everyone who was there during the so called dark times thinks the way you do and if they think differently then that must mean that they weren't there. I remember very well how some people thought that CD will never come out and that's how they justified listening to the leaks. Personally I never doubted that the album will be released at some point, just like I've never doubted that The General and other CD2 songs will be released. You see, we're all different. Most people around here seem to think that Axl's done and GNR will never release music again. I don't think so. I believe that GNR will release new music again at some point, just like I believed back then that CD will be released. I did listen to the leaks back then. Not because I didn't have faith in CD being released, but because I wanted to listen to them. But I decided not to listen to the TIL leak, Scraped leak, Sorry leak and the Chinese Democracy song leak cause I wanted to save those until the record is actually released so that there will be something that sounds new on the record. If the leaks spoiled the album for you, you don't have anyone else to blame but yourself. Nobody forced you to listen to them. Okay let's put it this way. You're here on these message boards talking about how the band shouldn't be inspired by artists from the nineties. Some crazy GNR fan might read your messages and start thinking that you know what you're talking about. He/she might start thinking that if GNR followed your advice they might become the biggest band in the world again. Then that crazy fan might start thinking that you're going to save GNR and then he/she starts to expect miracles from you. Then GNR releases their album and it's a well received record but it doesn't revolutionize anything. The crazy fan starts calling you a failure cause you didn't make GNR the biggest band in the world, even though you never said that you would. But that crazy fan thought that because of your posts on these GNR message boards, Guns N' Roses would reunite with Izzy and Steven and revolutionize music. This is exactly the same as putting megalomaniac expectations on some album and then calling it a failure cause it didn't meet those expectations. You're saying that there were plenty of clues and facts that Chinese Democracy was an actual album. Yes there was, but Axl never said that the album is going to revolutionize music. You keep talking about the evidence that we had about the existence of Chinese Democracy. That has nothing to do with anything. Nobody was crazy for thinking that Axl was working on an album. We all knew that Chinese Democracy was in the making and it was real. I'm not calling anyone crazy who thought that it was real. I believed that it was real as well. And I hoped that it will be good. But I didn't expect it to revolutionize anything. And this is my point! Axl never said that it's going to revolutionize anything just like you haven't said that you're going to cure the cancer. Axl never said that CD is going to revolutionize anything, just like you've never said that GNR is going to reunite with Izzy and Steven because of your posts on this message board. That's my point with these analogies. If people build crazy expectations around you, you can't be called a failure if you've never claimed that you would meet those crazy expectations. Some crazy fan might say that we had plenty of clues, evidence and facts that demonstrated that killuridols knew what's best for Guns N' Roses, she talked a lot about those things on the message boards, so we know from the mouth of the horse that she could have made GNR the biggest band in the world, but she failed. Just like you're saying that we knew for a fact that CD was in the making. You might respond to that crazy fan and tell her that you never claimed that you would make GNR the biggest band in the world, so you're not a failure if that didn't happen. Likewise I'm saying to you that Axl never claimed that CD would revolutionize anything, so you can't call CD a failure if it didn't meet those kind of crazy expectations. Yet, you're still the only one who's ignoring questions. I feel sorry for you. I'm not doubting that you're as old as most of us here are, but you're acting way more childish than anyone. You're constantly trying to either prove that you've been a fan since the early nineties or you're reminding everyone that you were there during the "dark times" and you're constantly acting like nobody else knows what it was like during those times. I've honestly never met someone over 30 years old, who'd act so childishly. But if you want to look at the facts, well I've been a member of mygnr longer than you have. I've been a member since 2013 and you joined in 2016. Before I joined mygnr I used to be a member of chinesedemocracy.com, and I'm sure that some people remember me from that forum. Axl answered one of my questions when he was visiting these forums. I remember all the details from the so called dark times. I remember when Slash visited Axl's house, I remember when Velvet Revolver dressed up as nugnr in Halloween, I remember the VMA's, I remember the first crappy I.R.S leak etc... I don't know what you're trying to achieve with those "you were not there" comments, but you're only making yourself look bad. Bye bye!
  9. Yes inspiration can work in many different ways. If Axl's inspired by artists from the nineties, then nobody should be telling him that he shouldn't be. But of course GNR is a team effort. I'm not saying that only Axl's inspirations should be taken into consideration. But they all have their own influences and nobody should be telling them what they can use as inspiration and what they can't. Well you said this: "More than a decade working on something that didn't do anything for the music scene. Many people may like CD but it cannot be considered the best GNR album or revolutionary in any shape or form. CD didn't contribute anything significant for a new generation or for a new genre." That was part of your explanation for why you consider CD a failure. It didn't live up to those megalomaniac expectations that some idiots developed around it. I might as well create some expectations around you. I'm expecting you to come up with a cure for cancer, if you don't succeed in that then you are a failure. See how stupid that sounds? You never claimed that you could cure the cancer so how can you be a failure if you don't meet the expectations that some idiots created around you? This is exactly what I mean. You don't seem to be able to talk about CD from a musical point of view. You know people talk about the evolution of rock music for example. Do you understand what that means? It doesn't mean the evolution of just one persons guitar playing skills. It means the change that has happened to the rock music genre throughout the years. Yes, David Bowie is obviously not Chuck Berry, just like Buckethead isn't Slash. But we're talking from a musical point of view here. Of course it's different and of course it's something new, but it can also be described as evolution. But if you'e not capable of talking about these subjects, that's fine by me. Like I said, we both have better things to do than argue about this anyway. So can we agree to disagree? I feel like this conversation isn't really going anywhere anymore.
  10. Well I guess we both have better things to do than to argue about these things, so let's try to wrap this up now. I really wanted to understand your point of view and although I understand you better now there's still many things about your point of view that sound weird to me. But that's life. We can always respectfully disagree. For example the whole "looking up to other artists and drawing inspiration from them" I guess we fundamentally disagree on that part. You think artists should be inspired by other artists around them only when the're young. I think ideal would be to continue being inspired by other artists around you throughout your whole life. I asked you in what way you consider Chinese Democracy to be a failure. You answered and I thank you for that. I still think that it's a bit unfair to say that it's a failure cause it didn't revolutionize anything, when it was never even supposed to. I'm also sorry that the leaks ruined CD for you. Earlier I wanted to talk about CD from a strictly musical point of view. I was thinking that CD sounded in many ways like what you were hoping that the next GNR album will sound like. Only you of course want Slash's and Duff's input on it and you want less industrial influences. But like I said CD is in many ways an evolution of the UYI sound. At this point you answered "no it's not cause there's no Slash, Duff etc..." Maybe I would have liked to talk about it from a musical point of view, but oh well. What ever. I think it's funny how even in the dark times people complained that Axl didn't give any news concerning CD and even today people are angry cause the band is so silent. At the same time you're saying that Axl ruined CD back in the day cause he talked too much about it. And you're one of the few people who hopes that Axl stays silent concerning the state of the next GNR album as well. All I can say is, it aint easy being a front man of a band like GNR. What ever you do, you're always doing it wrong according to some people. You can never please everyone, but that's just life I guess. Anyway, thanks for this discussion. It's been a long time since I've had these kind of arguments, so it was fun.
  11. I guess I was one of the people who had high hopes for Chinese Democracy and it didn't disappoint. Was it exactly what I had imagined in my head? Of course not! But it was a great album. What else could you ask for? Well, apparently you could ask for some kind of a musical revolution, but that will only lead to disappointment. Why did Axl spend millions of dollars on one album? Because he wanted to make an album that's in his and his bands opinion and in the record companies opinion worthy of the GNR name. He wasn't trying to make a musical revolution. He was trying to keep GNR alive. Now you can obviously disagree on all those things. You can say that the album wasn't worthy of the GNR name. You can say that he didn't keep GNR alive. You can even blame him for killing GNR in the first place. I'm just trying to explain his point of view here. All these things that I say are based on things that Axl's said in different interviews. In his point of view Slash and Duff left GNR and he wanted to keep the band alive for the fans. He was totally aware of how difficult it would be to recreate the magic of the old band with a new lineup. He couldn't find a blues based guitarist who could have properly replaced Slash, so he chose a different kind of guitarist instead. But he had an idea in his head about what the essence of GNR is. Axl has never described in detail, what GNR consists of in his opinion, but clearly he saw GNR as a guitar driven hard rock band, and a melting pot of different kinds of music styles that inspires the band members. But to get a more precise idea of what GNR is in his opinion, you'd have to ask him. Even though he was the only original member left, he never saw GNR as a solo project. According to him, a solo project of his would sound very different and it would be much more instrumental. Personally I bet it would sound a lot like a movie score. But in Axl's point of view GNR is something else and that's why the making of CD took such a long time and so much money, cause he was trying to create something that he thought was worthy of the GNR name. Well obviously that's not the only reason. There was all kinds of obstacles behind the scenes. Legal issues, problems with the label, band members quitting etc... But there's really no evidence at all suggesting that Axl would have tried to revolutionize music in some way. I have no doubt that Axl was sincere when he said "it's just an album". He did his best to create something that would have lived up to the GNR name, but he was fully aware that in the end it's still nothing more than just an album. I understand very well, that some people don't consider Chinese Democracy a GNR album cause there's no Slash, Duff or Izzy. You don't think everybody understands that point of view? That's why it's so boring when people keep repeating that, cause we already know why you don't consider it a GNR album. It's just weird that it seems so difficult for people like you to talk about that album from a strictly musical point of view. Personally I'm always more interested about the art itself than the creators of the art. I know what it was like over here, during the so called dark times. There was a lot of mystery surrounding Chinese Democracy and there's no way it could have ever lived up to the expectations that some people had. But it's still a great album if you ask me. I don't personally rate albums based on how well they live up to some kind of hype. In my opinion that's unfair towards super hyped albums like CD cause there's no way they could lived up to the expectations. I'm sure that once GNR announce a new album, the hype train will start to roll again like crazy. So I guess the next album will be a failure too according to you. But yeah, I agree with you on how teamwork should work.
  12. Finally we agree on something. I agree that on the next album, their music should reflect a combination of what all of them can offer to the music. That we agree on, but... that's about it then. Maybe I make assumptions of what you're trying to say. But I'm just trying to understand your logic. So if I understood you correctly, you're still trying to say that Chinese Democracy was a failure cause it didn't revolutionize anything? Am I correct? And you're saying that part of the problem was that Axl released it too late and if he had released it in 2001 or 2002 it's fate would have been different cause he and his fans were still young? So you actually believe that Chinese Democracy could have revolutionized music if it had been released in 2001? Is that what you're saying? Sorry, I don't want to make weird assumptions, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. So did you actually at some point believe that Axl could have revolutionized music and is that why you consider CD a failure cause it didn't revolutionize anything? Personally I never expected CD to revolutionize anything and I don't think Axl expected that either. Axl never said that Chinese Democracy is going to be a colossal album that will revolutionize music and prove once and for all that he alone is Guns N' Roses without Slash, Duff and co... Those were all your expectations, or... I don't know whose expectations those were, but you said that CD was supposed to do all that and I honestly don't know were you got those ideas from. Before CD was released Axl's own words about the album were: "In the end, it's just an album". That's it! He was fully aware that it's just an album. Nothing more, nothing less. So I don't know where you got these "it was supposed to be a colossal thing" ideas from. You didn't answer my question concerning the next GNR album. Do you think it will be a failure if it doesn't revolutionize music? The problem with people like you is that it's hard to talk with you about CD from a musical point of view. When you talk about CD you always point out that it's not GNR, it's just a freak show. That's all you usually say about it. But from a musical point of view CD is an evolution of the UYI sound. And lyrically it deals with subjects that older people can relate to better than AFD for example. So in many ways it is exactly what you said that you want from the next GNR album, except you obviously want to hear Slash's and Duff's contributions too and you want less industrial influences. But other than that CD doesn't seem to be all that far from what you're hoping that the next GNR album will sound like. I disagree completely with your point about how young artists are supposed to look up to other artists and be inspired by them but when they get older, they should stop looking up to other artists and stop being inspired by them. I mean I agree that when you're young it's good to look up to other artists and it's good to be influenced by them, but that applies to when you're older too, otherwise you run out of creativity. One of my favorite things about Axl is the fact that he hasn't lost his admiration towards other artists. That's healthy compared to some other artists, who start to think that they have nothing left to learn. In my opinion the worst thing that can happen to an artist is the moment when he defines who he is and what his style is. That's the moment when he imprisons his creativity and I'm glad that never happened to GNR. Imagine if Slash and Duff would have convinced Axl that November Rain should not be made cause it's too different compared to the GNR sound that they established with AFD. Luckily that didn't happen. And I hope that GNR keeps on pushing the boundaries of what a GNR song is supposed to sound like. I hope that they keep on being creative. I've spoken a lot about Axl's point of view, cause he's always been the main songwriter of GNR next to Izzy. And especially now that Izzy isn't there, his point of view is pretty important. It just sounded strange to me when you said that you want the next GNR album to be about something that the band believes in and at the same time you're saying that Axl should forget about his musical influences and forget everything that he believes in musically speaking. That just sounded pretty damn contradictory to me. You genuinely seemed to think that Axl only wanted to appeal to the youth masses when he made NIN inspired songs, when in fact he just wants to draw inspiration from all the music that he enjoys. Just like he did in the AFD days. But yeah, at least we agree on one thing. I also hope that the next album will be a band effort. Though I wouldn't mind if they included some CD2 songs like the General in there.
  13. Please don't do the "I've been a fan since the early 90s" thing. I bet most of us have been fans since the early 90s. It doesn't impress anyone here. When it comes to Chinese Democracy, nothing would have lived up to the expectations. All in all I think it's pretty impressive that even after a decade people are still talking about the album and finding new things that they enjoy about it. How many albums are still heavily discussed a decade after they've been released. Chinese Democracy is an album that you often see on lists about underrated albums. CD might not have revolutionized music, but it was never supposed to. Since when are albums supposed to revolutionize music in order to not be failures. 99,9% of records don't revolutionize music. Does that mean that they're all failures? You said yourself that young people do not identify with old people and therefore trying to make some kind of a revolution is useless. But you consider CD a failure cause it didn't revolutionize anything. In other words it's a failure cause it didn't do something that you admit is impossible. It was never meant to revolutionize anything. You're the only one that seems to expect that it should have even though you admit that it would have been impossible. So CD was a failure cause it didn't revolutionize anything. Does that mean that the next GNR album will also be a failure if it doesn't revolutionize anything? In your opinion it would be impossible to revolutionize anything anyway, so does that mean that you want GNR to release an album that you will consider a failure? In my opinion Chinese Democracy was a great album that not everybody obviously liked, but on the other hand some people loved it with passion. People are still hungry for new GNR music, which proves that it wasn't a terrible album. Otherwise people wouldn't care cause nobody would trust Axl's songwriting skills anymore. I think it's interesting that you want the next GNR album to be an evolution of the UYI sound and still stay in the rock genre... isn't that exactly what Chinese Democracy was. An evolution of the UYI sound that still stayed in the rock genre. But the most interesting part of your post was this: "IMO their music should represent who they are now, at this time and age, what they believe, their ideas and dreams of men hitting their 60s." Isn't that exactly what Axl did with Chinese Democracy? He wasn't singing about sex, drugs and rock n roll, but he was singing about breakups and stuff that he cold relate to at that point in life. He made the kind of music that he believed in. Took influences from all the music that he loved, just like he always did. Why do you consider it wrong to be inspired by Björk or NIN, but you don't consider it wrong to be inspired by Elvis, Elton John and Lynyrd Skynyrd? Axl has openly admitted being influenced by Lynyrd Skynyrd when he wrote SCOM. Why aren't you saying that Axl should have left Lynyrd Skynyrd alone because that was their thing not Guns thing. Why was it okay to be inspired by all the music that they loved, when they wrote AFD, but now it's suddenly wrong in your opinion to be inspired by everything? When you read Axl's interviews, it's easy to see that Axl's approach in making GNR music has always been the same. He has always been influenced by all the music around him. All the music that he loves and he has described GNR as a melting pot of all the music that inspires him. So if you want them to make music that represent the values that they believe in, shouldn't it be okay that they continue being inspired by all the artists that they enjoy? It's like you consider being influenced by everything post 80s to be an attempt to appeal to young masses. I don't think being inspired by NIN was ever an attempt by Axl to appeal to young masses. He just made the kind of music that he believed in. The kind of music that inspired him.
  14. I very much doubt Axl has ever had any interest in making music that sounds totally like Björk. It's a whole different thing to be inspired by something than to make music that sounds exactly like something. I don't think Björk influences would be a bad thing at all in GNR music. A song can be hard rock and still have influences from different things like for example Björk. And obviously Axl never wanted to be Reznor, but I suppose you mean he was inspired by NIN when he made CD. And he failed in what way? There's millions of people who love Chinese Democracy and the NIN influenced songs, so I'm not sure if you can call that a failure. I'm not sure if I understand what you want GNR to be. On one had you're saying that they shouldn't change much musically. I assume you mean that they should try to stick as close to their early sound as possible. But on the other hand you're constantly afraid that they'd sound dated. Don't you think they would sound dated if they'd make music that sounds exactly like AFD now? Heck you even admit that they already sounded dated in the 90s. So what do you want? Dated sounding GNR music or something else? Surely you're not implying that they should try to take influences only from the current music scene only so they would sound contemporary. I say, let them make music the way they always did. Let them be inspired and influenced by all the music that they enjoy. In my opinion creative freedom leads to best end results usually.
  15. Yeah, well I don't understand that kind of thinking. That's like saying Axl was too late when he took influences from 60s artists in the eighties cause a whole new generation of artists had already reinvented music with synthesizers etc... No it was definitely not too late to be inspired by 60s artists in the eighties and it's definitely not too late to be inspired by nineties artists now. And many artists have made their best songs when they were old. Axl has plenty of time to still revolutionize music. I'm obviously not expecting him to do so. I'm just saying that in theory he could.