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Euchre

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  1. The only credible story I’ve heard (at least with regards to the original band as I know nothing about the post UYI era), was that Tracii Guns had a handful of writing credits that he sold for a fixed sum in 86 or 87. I never knew if this is actually true though and don’t know the songs in question however I understand Don’t Cry was alluded to as one of them. The way they did the credits on UYI was also different to the way they did it on Appetite & Lies. It seems with Appetite/Lies it was more if you had a hand in getting the song to completion then you got the credit - hence the whole band credits - which is similar to what Axl would say introing songs live in that era. Eg “this song was started by so and so but then the rest of the band got a hold of it and changed it all around”. whereas UYI was really only the very originators of the song. An example of this was the recent interview with Duff on the Dean Delray podcast when he is talking about Pretty Tied Up where he seems to be saying it was more of an Izzy riff tape that Duff, Slash and Steven got a hold of and then turned the thing inside out. I’ve heard stories about the actual royalty payments for publishing on UYI being different to the credits in the album booklet as well, with the royalties being closer to the Appetite approach. I’m pretty sure someone on this forum had looked up the ASCAP payments for some songs (if that is the right terminology) and there were additional band members credited. Someone with more UYI knowledge than I would be better placed to expand on this though.
  2. I posted this in another thread but given the t-shirt comments thought I should post it here as well. In the early days every GNR shirt had all 5 members on it, aside from these white ones they brought out with Lies on the back, but a different shirt/song for each member on the front. You don't really see or hear about them anymore. But there was an official GNR shirt with Adler and only Adler on the front, and people knew who he was !! Because the dynamic has shifted so much over the last 28 years where it is so much about Axl and Slash, but back then all 5 members mattered pretty close to equally. The shot below is from the August 1990 edition of Hot Metal, the local metal mag in Oz, obviously the shirts I'm talking about are on the left. http://www.imagebam.com/image/883ddb963245404
  3. UYI box>AFD box

    I went back through a few old mags this morning and below are a couple of cool links relevant to this time period to illustrate some of the points I've been making. This one was from around Dec 88, the 1st Issue of Hot Metal had an interview with Slash about the upcoming Oz tour, and in it you can see they are still spelling out who each band member is, in this case Axl, since as I mentioned it hadn't become the Axl & Slash show yet at this point (or at least in Oz). http://www.imagebam.com/image/57a5bf963245354 This next one is from May 90 and is the first mention I recall of Adler being out. This and the next one shows this was followed pretty closely at the time as all the members were considered pretty important. The second link is from August 90, which shows it could often take a few months for info to filter through. You also see the sarcasm about the album in both the articles. Initially the follow up was due to be recorded in mid/late 88 but then the Japan / Oz tour kind of messed that up, then there was strong expectation of a recording/release around mid 89 and this one was quite strong. Once it came and went and things drifted into 90 with still no album in sight many were wondering if it would ever happen http://www.imagebam.com/image/52fc5f963247764 http://www.imagebam.com/image/da11a9963245414 Lastly, half of the t-shirt spread from the Aug 1990 edition. You can see the 'Stoned in L.A.' shirt here. I remember there was another shirt with a skull on it that had needles and other things sticking out from the skull. Every GNR shirt I can recall from 87-90 that had band members on the front had every band member - like I said they really were considered an equal team. The only exception to this is the white shirts you see down the left edge where one was made for each band member. You don't see/hear much about these anymore, but if I remember correctly these were available either very close to or right up to the UYI releases and then all these Appetite/Lies era shirts disappeared and were replaced by the UYI designs (ie you could still get the Adler / Izzy shirts well after they left the band). http://www.imagebam.com/image/883ddb963245404
  4. I was going through some old mags, and found the original article I remember seeing about Pete....some time later there was another article in a magazine saying both Pete and Mick were asked to join but I can't remember the mag or the year, if I ever come across it again I'll post it, but below is the first one I saw ever about Pete : http://www.imagebam.com/image/6637bf963245364
  5. UYI box>AFD box

    Thinking about it I’d say you are right on OIAM, whilst it wasn’t a big controversy here in Oz to the best of my recollection, it probably was a much bigger deal in the U.S. at the time given the different histories and demographics of the countries. As you rightly point out, at the time in Oz, similar to in Greece, you didn’t really get a good insight into how things looked in the rock world in other countries. We had the local metal mag (Hot Metal in 89 and beyond was the main one), and import mags were quite rare, would turn up months after released overseas and about triple the price. From my memory MTV really only did specials here - although we had l8mited channels at the time where I lived so this may have been different in the capital cities - and there and was maybe on for an hour or two at night. I remember they did show the Ritz show in about 1990. The main video show was Rage and it just showed the Top 50 videos, no news or commentary. The drugs were def a big issue here though, rightly or wrongly, they were all viewed as a bunch of heroin addicts, Axl and Duff included. From memory there was some issues after their 88 shows where they had to get out of the country quickly due to warrants being issued for promoting drug use from the stage. The story going round at the time was they were supposed to fly back to the US via Oz from NZ but had to change their flights to avoid being arrested at the stop over. Slash was definitely perceived as the worst junkie and also to be permanently drunk. I remember the jokes going around about how Slash never gets hungover as he just stays permanently drunk, and when he dies he’ll be preserved due to all the alcohol in his system !!
  6. UYI box>AFD box

    There are a couple of good points in here and I do like your Sorum v Frank thread !!! I’m not denying that during the UYI tour there wasn’t much being said by the fans about Adler/Izzy. The point I keep trying to make/explain is that all the fans I knew of that original band had turned off GNR by that point. They were the ones that cared about Adler/Izzy and they no longer cared for GNR. The new batch of fans they picked up probably barely knew who Adler/Izzy were - by this stage it was the Axl and Slash show, but it never used to be. This is what I keep trying to say, it was a different crowd and a lot more fickle one - when GNR were out of fashion they moved on again - they were in it for the hype and the event, not for the music. I saw this again this time around, people I went to school with who were never fans of GNR for either the Appetite/Lies or the Illusion era were contacting me to go so NITL. I literally don’t know anyone who was a fan back in the day that went to these shows. I also agree that UYI wouldn’t have been materially different song wise had the band stayed together. I think this was the saving grace for those albums actually that the original band had developed them so far. Where they would have been different IMO was in production, artwork, song credits and song selection. I wouldn’t be surprised if the original idea of a series of EP’s materialised alongside a shorter album. It is hardly surprising that the ‘band’ has barely released anything outside of those songs that the original 5 worked on. You can look back at sales and tour figures and everything that gets written on the net now and try and form a picture but I can’t emphasis how much at the time this band was viewed as a tight knit group that just did whatever they wanted and didn’t compromise at all. They stood out massively in that regard. As I mentioned all the songs were written by ‘Guns N’ Roses’ in the interviews they’d say stuff like it could only ever have been us 5 in the band, equal billing in the videos, t-shirts and album sleeves, all band members would be interviewed from time to time in the mags, no power ballads on the album. They were different to other bands in this regard and all members had a solid fan base. When it emerged that Adler and Izzy were out and then all the subsequent things that went on with the album/tour that were so diametrically opposite to what they represented during the Appetite/Lies era, just turned so many of the original fans away - and those people did know and care about all 5. Even the band itself acknowledges that the original 5 are the real band, unfortunately money and ego gets in the way now. Don’t get me wrong, Adler certainly screwed it and people talk about him now as a hopeless addict, but at the time Slash was perceived as a much bigger junkie than Adler. Also, OIAM is a much bigger controversy today than it was back then, small waves at the time but more a storm in a tea cup, outside of the people I knew that liked the band, no one had even heard of the song - the drug use was a much bigger controversy at the time - for crying out loud they put out a shirt with all the band members on the front with the line ‘Stoned in LA’’. I also definitely agree that Axl turned a lot of people away - most thought he was a bit of a dick by the end of that tour - I’m not sure if I mentioned it before but those bike pants definitely alienated a lot of people !!! I remember years later hearing one of those 87 Pasadena shows as they came at as unofficial CD releases in Oz in the late 90s and Axl goes on this rant about musicians who think they are rock stars and how down to earth he is - which is exactly how he and the whole band came across in the 80s, but I was just thinking at the time how things have changed and what the hell happened to this guy ??
  7. UYI box>AFD box

    Out of everything I said in the prior post, the thing you choose to comment on is the NR single - and even then try and put words into my mouth. If you can find anywhere that I claim the Illusion about, tour or NR were not big then quote me direct, and I’ll stand corrected. My point the whole time is that they picked up a different fan base, alienated a lot of fans of the original line up and still used the original band to push things along (although far less so than they do today). If you were a pretty casual fan that liked NR but didn’t own Appetite and Lies (remember no internet to stream or download, no greatest hits at the time), so if you wanted the big 3 GNR softer songs you either bought 3 albums that would have been $60 - $90 at the time (in Oz) or you bought that single that was $5 to $7 from memory. A lot bought the single because of this. So I’m not claiming that NR was a success because of this, but I’m certainly claiming it helped sales along. You seem hell bent on this revisionist line even though you have basically said you weren’t there to experience it first hand, and everyone else that has commented that was, and also your sister more or less are confirming what I’m saying to some degree. Your position is akin to looking back in 20 years and saying NITL was a success so anyone who claims a lot of fans didn’t like it at the time is a revisionist. There are plenty of people expressing their displeasure or dislike and the where’s Adler/Izzy comments are rife, but it doesn’t mean the shows aren’t selling a lot. The thing with UYI and I expect the same will happen with NITL is that at the time everyone was caught up in the hype and euphoria as it was massive. People went along because it was a huge event. However once all that emotion died down and people looked back, it pretty quickly turned into well actually it wasn’t really that great - if that is what you mean by revisionist then you are correct in that regard, but that didn’t mean a lot of people weren’t also saying it at the time.The band is the same - at the time you can’t find any interviews where they are critical of the Illusions or the tour, but it didn’t take long for them to start saying they hated it and it was one of the worst periods of their life. At the Oz shows the comment immediately after the shows was pretty much universally GNR were ok, but Skid Row blew them away - very quickly after that tour GNR completely faded from prominence. The Adler/Izzy stuff has been going since 91. It’s not going to go away. As I mentioned before I remember the Adler v Sorum debates back in the mid 90s on the Boerio forums. Now it’s Adler v Frank. I doubt anyone genuinely believed at the time Matt was a preferable drummer for GNR they were just arguing for who was in the band at the time. And it’s the same now for Frank. And it will be the same in 5 & 10 years from now - just as you don’t see Sorum v Frank debates, you won’t see Frank v whoever is drumming then, it will be Adler v whoever. The 5 was the way the band was defined and the group that made the best albums and delivered the best performances. The things that have happened subsequently were predominantly around control, money and ego - and whilst there has been periods of success the reality is the band hasn’t delivered anywhere near the potential it could have and ironically, hasn’t had as much regular or on going success as it could have. Anyone who thinks the current tour is about some sort of artistic statement or integrity is crazy. It is 100% about $$. It is no surprise that the 3 original members involved, no more, no less are the 3 that have voting stake in the sales and marketing of the name or back catalogue. Everything is designed to maximise the $$ for those 3, and I doubt the band are really int9 it. Post tour I expect we’ll start seeing similar statements emerge to post UYI. Funny how they still look back on Appetite era with fondness though. I’ve seen plenty of wealthy people fall into this trap where, even though they have the financial means to do whatever they what, they choose decisions to unnecessarily try and maximise their bank accounts rather than their happiness.
  8. UYI box>AFD box

    There are a few different threads at the moment covering the same theme, so I’m bringing a few things together in this post. What often get forgotten today, is that there is way more info on Guns and even the early days of Guns now than there was in 1990. Back then there was no internet, there was I think 2 books out and other than that all you had was an interview you might have got in that months magazine. Hence things may only come out much later if at all and it was only the big stuff that really came out. Hence, the main thing the average music buyer saw was the albums, the videos and the t-shirts. So if you want to get a feel for how the band was perceived back then go and look at those and you’ll notice all 5 members pretty much had equal billing. Albums were equal. Videos, Axl had a bit more prominence in Jungle, but all 5 members featured in the off stage scenes, same with Patience and Sweet Child and in Paradise City, Izzy and Axl were missing from the NY shots, so if anything Slash, Adler and Duff had more priminance in that video. T shirts were the same - every shirt was either a logo or if it was a photo it was all 5. Right near the end just before Steven was fired they bought out these Lies shirts that had individual members on the front with a song lyric - but that was 5 different shirt designs one for each member - again all equal. There were virtually no shows in 89/90 and GNR was blowing up ever bigger, particularly in 89 and all the public saw at that time was all 5 members with similar prominence and that is how the band got defined in a lot of people’s minds. Actually the other thing that you could see from time to time was the Ritz show - and again guys like Adler were just as prominent in that as Axl was. Guns was one the last bands where the buying public knew every members name. It was only after UYI came out that it really became the Axl & Slash show but more on the later. Add to the above they came across as a really tight knit group. Knowing what we know now from the Net we know that wasn’t really the case, but at the time the perception was they were almost a gang who really had each other’s back - it is really hard to find any interviews from that ere where they talk any shit about each other. They were also perceived very much so as a drug orientated band. So when it started coming out that Steven was fired and fired for drugs it was very much a WTF moment and alienated a lot of fans. (Again remember sometimes it would take months for interviews to be published - so there was a large cross over period where Adler was out but interviews, pics etc coming out were still from when he was in and people didn’t really know what has going on until the YCBM vid came out - not every interview was in every mag, and you couldn’t get every mag anyway so you’re only getting snippets). Those band member shirts were still out right up to the UYI designs came in, so well after Steven was fired you could still get the Guns Steven Adler shirt with Anything Goes/Lies on it. Subsequenlty you start getting pics coming out with Axl bearded up and in bike shorts and it is increasingly like WTF and then more and more of the stupid antics,changing clothes, disappearing off stage, shows go on for ever and lose their intensity. Izzy disappears adds to it all, there’s a keyboardist in there, then another. The albums are completely different to Appetite, there are the back up singers, the ridiculous videos. They go from basically being lights and bands show - famously in Oz not even a drum riser then they play the Entertianment Centre - to the very thing the claimed to hate a few years before on the Maiden tour this big stage show with inflatables and pyro and these huge banners on the side of the stage. People were legitimately going this is a completely different band in terms of outlook and sound to the one I loved so much a couple of years back. The other thing that gets forgotten now days is that the UYI singles didn’t go that great at first, it was Nov Rain that really took off and if you look at that single it has Sweet Child and Patience on the b-side. In fact pretty much every UYI single has the original band on it which is pretty ironic as no one in the band was saying anything nice about Adler or even Izzy at this point. It was only late 90s/early 2000’s that started to change. The other thing is during this period between when Apetite/Lies era ends and UYI come out there are 4 major personnel changes - and in hindsight they are critical. And even though spaced out in most of the public’s eye they pretty much come at the same time. Adler/Izzy/Niven out, Reed in. The first 3 are critical to the balance within the band as these were the 3 most likely to call Axl out. With them gone, Axl goes more down the Axl path. Similarly with Izzy gone Slash exerts more control, although to be fair this was already happening prior as Izzy was heavil sidelined in the UYI albums. Also, suddenly songs aren’t written by Guns N Roses anymore, they are written by individuals the gang mentality is fracturing, So much gets talked about Adler and Civil War but most forget that Izzy doesn’t even appear on the track. Both Adler and Izzy had very unique styles that brought a lot to the Guns sound. Steven aside from the unique parts would vary his timing with the emotion of the song which caused it to soar when it needed to and bring it back down when it needed to. Izzy brought a very down to earth element to the band. Slash has said he hates Izzy’s parts in Jungle, but they add so much to the song but if it was on UYI you would hear Izzy’s guitar and the song would be inferior IMO, which is part of what affected the other songs on UYI. Beat in mind as well that Guns started out Axl/Izzy on one side, Slash/Steven on the other and Duff in the middle, so Adler going initially certainly tipped a voting balance in the band. Niven was also key, up until he was fired the guy was heavily praised for what he achieved with Guns. He was really in it for all 5 and wasn’t afraid to call Axl out. I think Axl did the no show on the first gig Niven was manager and he made the rest of the band go on without Axl. I don’t think he did it again. This was much better way to deal with late starts than accomodating it the way it was during UYI, I’m not sure how often Axl would show up late if by the time he walked on stage the band was already half way through the set. Anyway without Niven handling this, it was the sort of stuff that happened. Dizzy I don’t think had much influence on the actual band other than they felt the need to cram keyboards into every song now he was a member, it certainly at the time keyboards weren’t viewed as that cool in the metal world, so it was a bit of a WTF and certainly added to this is a whole different band now vibe. i think the saving grace for the UYI was that they were developed so much by the original band, it was really only right at the end that the personnel changes happened. The notorious Chicago trip where the went to focus on that material was mid 89 for instance, and as we know now many of the tunes pre dated Appetite. One of the best indicators for me is Back of Bitch as it allows you to compare UYI to Appetite via the Sound City demos. The Appetite turns on Sound City are inferior to the album, but Back off Bitch IMO is superior. How an 86 demo sounds better than this hugely expensive album speaks volumes, but also indicates how much better UYI could be. The other thing that bothers me with those albums, is that they get talked about today like they are these atypical albums, but at the time Appetite and Lies were much more atypical. Every band from Metallica to Poison to pick any were doing power ballads. Motley had the big hit with Home Sweet Home which combined the piano. Appetite had none of that and it made it stand out. With Lies it seemed you had to go back to the early 70’s to get that style. Remember this was years before MTV Unplugg took off with Clapton. UYI however just seemed to go with the formula that everyone else was using - more blah IMO.
  9. UYI box>AFD box

    Nothing revisionist about it at all - those that lived through the Illusion era would recall how polarising they were at the time amongst fans and also that within a year of that tour GNR were pretty much considered a joke. I can assure you I didn’t think much of them at the time and if anything like them a little better now, but still don’t think they are anything on Appetite or Lies. Didn’t regard them as real GNR at the time, still don’t now and doubt I ever will. All the 80s GNR fans I knew had moved onto Metallica and then Pantera during that era. A lot gets talked about Nirvana killing this scene, but Pantera did way more damage IMO. GNR on the local metal show just sounded weak alongside Mouth For War. I remember photos of Slash’s Snakepit playing Donnington and it was just sad the way they looked compared to the other bands. ill tell you who they did pick up as fans though due to the NR videos and the like - the pop fans - and there were a lot of them. My neighbour went from Kylie Minogue to UYI era GNR !!! Completely different fan base to prior. I also remember the Adler v Matt debates on the Boerio fan site and that was well before Slash left the band. I had to chuckle when the Adler v Frank debates come up now. Time will do to the Frank fans what it did to the Sorum fans. It is Appetite that has and will stand the test of time, the UYI just don’t cut it. Lastly it’s pretty clear the band knows this as well. This last tour has pretty much been an repeat of th Illusion tours however all the imagery is Appetite. Now I wonder why that is ?
  10. I guess it’s a question of perception as to what GNR is. Some people take the view the name is what makes GNR others take the view its the substance. In your Beatles example, the same 4 guys played on the all those albums so I agree with you in that it’s undisputably the same band. With GNR there was 5 guys on LLAS, AFD & Lies. Different people on UYI - is the same band ? some say yes, some say no. Personally I think it was an inferior band, I think the balance in the band shifted and hence 2 members had greater influence before which affected the material to a degree and affected the production and make up a whole lot. Given the original band did so much prep work and writing for it I would love to hear how it would have come out of those things didn’t transpire.
  11. Didn’t buy it, still won’t buy it. i think there were 4 new songs or versions of songs I hadn’t heard before, so that was cool and I listened to those. Listened to some of Sound City stuff and it was the best quality which was great. But I find it totally bizarre that you would go to so much effort and leave things out (eg I think there were a couple of Sound City tunes missing, they had Mystic but only used it as a cassette in the big box, plus other things mentioned in this thread) and instead choose to put on b-sides that are jus a album versions of the songs that are elsewhere in the box set anyway. So basically seems like an extensive yet incomplete set which is a shame. Plus a whole heap of nonsense that I have no interest in (eg rings and lithos). Overall had potential but could have been so much better and the final result ends up just reeking of a half arsed effort/cash grab.
  12. UYI box>AFD box

    I've thought about this before as well.....pick the dozen songs that the band like the best, strip them back, have Adler re-record the drums and Izzy record rhythm where he was cut out, mix it afresh in a rawer way and have it sound like it should have if all the drama didn't happen (ie a genuine GNR effort). Axl takes the remainders and modernise and package them however he likes. EP of all the ballads would work for some for example - and a series of EP's was one of the bands original intents. Package it up with the original re-mastered or whatever so you aren't trying to erase history (as much as I personally don't care for Sorum/Reed, I think it would be silly to try and pretend they didn't exist or contribute - and the piano does work on some songs) and you've got the beginnings of an interesting anniversary box set - and will settle a lot of stuff once and for all.
  13. Ideal world is AFD5 putting out 1 tune that they all had input into....
  14. Yeah I don’t know the reasons, I’m only speculating, but it is definitely what happened. As I said it was widely reported in the Oz rock press at the time, the interviewer above mentioned it, Mark Evans who was close with both Pete and Mick confirmed it, I spoke with Pete’s niece who confirmed it and told me the reasons why he turned it down. So it may seem odd, but it is what it is.
  15. It does seem strange, but I assume they were thinking of a 3rd guitarist. Pete Wells played slide guitar in Rose Tattoo, so certainly could have brought a different dynamic to GNR. Pete also played bass in Buffalo prior to the Tatts, so would have been quite versatile as well. As to why - maybe it wasn’t thought through to well - they were massive Rose Tattoo fans and Pete was the driving force behind Rose Tattoo originally so maybe the saw he wasn’t doing much and threw it out there on the spur of the moment. That tour was Dec 88 and I think it was the first time they met he guys from the Tatts. You’ve got to remember at that stage Lies was perhaps only out for a week or so if it was even available in Oz at that point. so that whole GNR/Rose Tattoo connection wasn’t so strong. What I mean by this I was talking to the Geordie Leach bass player from Rose Tattoo a few months back about GNR and he wasn’t aware of Live Like A Suicide, let alone that Nice Boys was on there - the first he knew that they did it was after Lies came out. No that is Rob Riley he replaced Mick Cocks for the 3rd album. Mick went onto play guitar in a band called Heaven and then was replaced in Heaven by Mark Evans...
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