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Euchre

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  1. I found the book it was Over The Top the True Story of Guns N Roses by Mark Putterford, page 108 for those that have it. The show he is referring to is the first show at Milton Keynes 29 May 03. He says he was backstage at both shows and on the first night they played One In A Million and replaced it with Used To Love Her on the second night. He runs through the set list each night and I took a look at GnrOnTour and the set lists are identical aside from this point (and one song he didn’t mention on one of the nights that GnrOnTour has). GNrOnTour says there is audio of the show so I assume someone out there has it and Used To Love her is correct and the author made a mistake, but it is certainly strange that someone so familiar with the band who was at the actual shows and writing a book would make such a mistake. Any chance the song was cut from the audio ?
  2. I do have a magazine article or book somewhere that talks about a series of shows during the Illusions tour where they would bring a couch on stage and do some songs acoustically. The article says they did One In A Million on the first night but then dropped it. I’m not so familiar with the UYI era so can’t really narrow down where that was, but some else may be able to. From memory I think it was one of the latter legs of the tour.
  3. Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

    The reasoning along the lines of ”Raz loves Trump, Duff disses Trump so therefore Raz accuses Axl of rape” - is exactly what I’m talking about when I refer to flawed logic. Does that really sound like reasonable rationale to anyone ? If Raz just wanted to go after Duff I’m sure he has heaps of ammo to do so, he doesn’t need to bring Axl into and burn those bridges & also need to pretend he made an error in his book (I mean if he is making it up now because mad about a Trump dis presumably you believe the original account in the book was the true one and he has pretended he made an error to make things fit). It seems quite some lengths to go to and a bit of self sabotage over someone dissing a politician. The far more logical explanation is the one he has put forward - that he became aware of new information about an incident he was on the fringes of and his conscious has gnawed at him and he has come out in support of someone he feels has been wronged - and done so at personal expense in terms of friendships, reputation and having to admit to errors in his book. That can’t have been an easy step and on the errors he went into detail in explaining how they came about and his reasoning sounds plausible to me. Back to my original post this is why I said Duff should look to the actions Raz has taken if he wants to learn how to be a man as it takes a huge amount of fortitude and humility to take the steps he has and at personal sacrifice.
  4. Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

    I feel there is some flawed logic going on in this thread or an desire by some to see through anything that could point to this being true - although given this is GNR forum I suppose it is hardly surprising that people don’t want an image they have built shattered. What I mean by this is : 1) Raz has confirmed this is the Michelle that was regularly hanging around the studio and a friend of the band - yet some seem to be directing questions at her suggesting she prove she even knew the band 2) Raz has also confirmed that this is the girl the incident happened to & that she was 15 at the time. At the very least all parties quoted ie Michelle, Raz and GNR members themselves have said that she ends up naked in the alley. By any sane measure a 15 year old girl having her clothes ripped off by adult men and being thrown into the street is pretty disturbing. It doesn’t matter what the reason was, or whatever the girl did or didn’t do - doing this to a 15 year old is a low act and I’d be surprised if that alone wasn’t criminal. There is no justification for that sort of behaviour or reaction. 3) I’m not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but there is definitely an Axl quote out there where he talks about ‘escorting people out of the Hell House and by escort I mean drag them down the alley naked’. I’m paraphrasing but someone I’m sure can find the exact quote. Up until now i had always assumed he was talking about grown men they beat up but now it takes on a really creepy tone and quite disturbing really. The quote makes it sound like he is bragging about it and he obviously neglects to mention that (if the allegations are true) he is referring to a 15 year old girl - so he is at least self aware enough to know how bad including that part would look. 4) Other girls have been mentioned in the thread with similar stories. Again I’m pretty sure there is an Erin Everly quote out from a court testimony there that sounds eerily similar about being tied up, assaulted and locked in a closet from memory. So the suggestions that this is out of character or a one off or an implausible story are really ignoring the similar stories that are out there - unless all these girls have banded together in some great conspiracy. Similarly the suggestions about motives - some have sought legal recourse some haven’t - so not all can be put down to a motive about money. So trying to assert that all these girls have made this up looking for a payday doesn’t hold. I’m well aware none of this proves Axl did anything, but all I’m saying is there are plenty of stories out there of him behaving in a pretty consistent manner so to make out this is completely implausable is to be wilfully ignoring other stories by unrelated people. There is the stairwell incident in Chicago as well that both Slash and Steve have confirmed as first hand witnesses. 5) The fact that Raz has come out with this also is reason to pause and consider. To use his own words after reading his book I thought the guy came off like an Axl kiss ass. He certainly doesn’t come across like he has an axe to grind. So for someone peripheral to the situation and at least impartial if not a GNR/Axl advocate to come out the way they have certainly must mean there is genuine belief in his mind that this is plausible. 6) All this talk of presumption of innocence as though it means Michelle can’t speak up. Correct me if I’m wrong - but is Axl in jail for this without trial ? If he isn’t then he is been granted the presumption of innocence & he is 100% entitled to it. It doesn’t extend to whether people can or can’t make allegations or whether people on a message board are free to form their own views as to the veracity of such claims. If it did no one could ever make an allegation and no one would be ever prosecuted for a crime. The evidentiary hurdle in a criminal trial is beyond reasonable doubt. In a civil trial it is balance of probabilities. Similarly presumption of innocence is in relation to criminal proceedings. 7) There seems to be a push by some to make Michelle seem like this crazy girl making up stories full of inconsistencies. I’m of the other view - she comes across quite rational and goes into great detail on things that I think would be hard to do if you weren’t actually there. (Ie describing layouts, people). I think it would be difficult to lie with that level of detail. 8) I wouldn’t expect other band members to speak up on it even if they did witness it. I’m pretty sure there is an Izzy quote where he talks about selling both drugs and girls and from memory Geffen made him break up with his underage girlfriend when they got signed. The point is more than likely a few of them would be in trouble is past actions started being brought up - and as much as they know about Axl, Axl would know about them. Let’s face it Slash and Duff are primarily motivated by money these days so they aren’t going to give up their golden goose. Same with Dizzy. 9) The last point I wanted to make is the same one I tried to make on my other post in this topic. No one can no for sure what happened in that room except for those that were there. I think most would agree that just the parts confirmed by all parties are pretty bad and would have caused huge emotional damage for Michelle. If the rest of it is true it is one of the worst possible crimes out there and would have been horrific for her. Now even if you think there is only a 1% chance of that part being true - do you want to run the risk of being the person ripping into someone that went through that. How are you going to feel if it turns out it’s true. Sure Michelle has come to a public forum, and a GNR one at that - but she clearly isn’t crazy and this can’t be immediately dismissed as the ravings of a deranged individual - so sure ask questions but I’d think for your own sake let alone hers to do it in a pretty respectful and balanced way.
  5. Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

    The Slash quotes from earlier in the thread sound like a different incident. He talks about going up to the bungalow, which sounds more like the house most known from the black and white photo with the keg. The Hell House studio definitely wouldn't be described as a bungalow. Also, this would put the timing much closer to the release of Appetite and hence more likely to be referenced in the liner notes. So just like Raz initially merged 2 separate incidents, I suspect the same is being done here. Way more importantly though, to Little Michelle it sounds so horrible what you have been through and I hope you have been able to find a way to work through it. As much as I like the music it was always well known the guys were low life's (as much as ppl like Duff try to re-invent the history now), but this is next level again. As much as people say Axl is entitled to a presumption of innocence - which he is and he hasn't been jailed without trial over this, so he's got that. This story is consistent with plenty of other things that have been written / come out in court (ie Everly, Seymour) and Michelle goes into a lot of detail that fits with other things I've read, so it all certainly seems plausible. I think it is worthwhile people pausing and considering this because the temptation will be to jump to the defence of someone they have been a fan of for a long time - but the risk the other way, that is of attacking someone who has gone through something so horrific for speaking the truth is one you probably don't want to get wrong either. Back to the original point of the thread Duff already looked pretty stupid and hypocritical in the virtue signalling he has been doing of late, given how much is on record to the contrary and how illogical his argument is (ie if we say something in the past understand it is a joke and/or shit talking and we aren't like that, but if someone else says similar assume they are serious and it is how they are), but this definitely makes it worse. Duff is big on this 'how to be a man' business, well he should be taking a look to Raz as he certainly hasn't manned up the way Raz has - it would have taken a lot to take the time to look into things, admit you were wrong, admit you made mistakes in the book and publicly call out a famous friend.
  6. Hollywood Rose DJ

    DJ was a real person in the sense not just someone else’s nickname, and its not Del James. Marc Canter verified it on this forum a few years back but said the guy wasn’t around real long.
  7. Adler's Appetite / Road Crew

    This is what I have from Steven post GN'R : Roadcrew did either an album or demos of which 6 with Steven on drums slowly got released on 3 Vain albums over the years (and 2 or maybe 3 other Roadcrew tunes without Steven on drums): 1) Move On It - Breakdown, Family & Get Up 2) Fade - Can't Get Back (also includes the Roadcrew song "Dee Dee" without Steven on drums & "Holdin On" may also be a Roadcrew tune) 3) Enough Rope - Cindy, Worship You (also includes the Roadcrew Song "Enough Rope" without Steven on drums). I also have a bootleg video of Roadcrew from the Limelight in NY with Tool opening. If you google you'll find the poster for this show. They play 6 of the songs above (all the ones on the Vain albums with Steven except for Worship You, but they do play Enough Rope). They also do the Vain tunes Icy & Beat the Bullet and a cover of Voodoo Child. After that he was on the Adler's Appetite EP which was released and you mention above (6 songs) Then came a 4 track Adler's Appetite EP with Sheldon Tarsha singing that never got released, but I have the tunes they are : 1) Keep Satisfied 2) Wreck of My Life 3) Execution Style 4) Sadder Days Around this time he did a session with Izzy and I think they did 3 tracks, but only 1 has got out there : "Do You Love Me". (I don't know what the others are). I think next was "Baby Can't Drive" from the Slash album. Then I think it was the Alive EP which you have details on. (3 songs, I won't count the instrumental version) Then the Adler Z' Nuff EP, which has the details in the post above. (5 songs) Then the Adler album. (11 songs) So all up, I've got 37 studio tracks from Adler post GN'R, plus 2 or 3 Roadcrew songs which got released without Steven on Drums and most likely there are a couple more tunes from the sessions with Izzy. ETA : seems I missed one 'All Day and All of the Night' with Chip Z' Nuff and Robin Zander
  8. Duff interview.

    I think both sides have clearly stated their positions, and perhaps they may be largely irreconcilable hence the continued debate. It is pretty clear Izzy's position is there needs to be an equal split of $. I suspect his thoughts are we started this band together, the whole legacy is from the music I helped write, record and tour to build the band up. (Let's face it, if there is no Appetite, the band isn't touring stadiums now.) Back then it was one for all, all for one, everything shared and if we are going to do it again, this is how it needs to be. It's a fair argument. (And also applies to Steven). The other side obviously wasn't prepared to do an equal split. I suspect their point is we retained ownership & subsequent obligations to keep the entity functioning. And by functioning I don't mean touring - certainly there would be arguments about whether that did more damage than good. I mean the annual cycle of dealing with accountants, lawyers and the whole business side of things that goes along with an entity the size of GNR. This is a fair argument as well. So how do you reconcile this ? I wonder if the only way we would ever see a reunion would be for the $ to be completely taken off the table. For example a one off show where all the proceeds go to charity. I think the thing that should be acknowledged and the facade dropped on is that this band is all about 'the music' or 'integrity' or 'putting on the best possible show'. That is BS, all that is now secondary to the $. If any of the former were true, they would have somehow worked out the $ issue as it would be secondary. Ironically, the guy who cops the most crap (ie Steven) the the only one that doesn't care about the $ and just wants to play with best lineup. It's also sad, that 5 people, from one of the most successful bands can't put $ aside. They don't need more of it, and are basically giving up something special in the pursuit of more of what they most likely don't need. I can understand a struggling band needing to do things for cash, but once your at the position GNR are at, is it better to do something that you really want to do even if it doesn't maximise your $ return or accept a little less of something you most likely don't need and do exactly what you want to do ?
  9. Duff missed a few shows in 88 and was replaced by Haggis aka Kid Chaos from the Cult. Could it be that guy ?
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