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amaninjapan last won the day on January 21 2017

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  1. Interesting, because I've collected a handful of posters from places like Dark Ink and Bottleneck and APs have always been considered less valuable because they are the ones that didn't make the cut; they have errors in them, damage, misalignments etc. But I know that for some Metallica, Pearl Jam and Dave Matthews Band posters however, the APs are much more expensive and collectible because they're not rejected prints and also usually lower volume. But the way that poster collectors on Expresso Beans seem to talk about it, I had just assumed they were exceptions and that the norm was that APs were inferior products. I don't know man, that's basic economics, isn't it? If there's a product that a lot of people want but it's priced too high and then someone comes out with a similar but inferior product, some of those people are going to go buy the inferior product - Easier to find, cheaper to buy. The end result is that there's less people wanting the superior product so the demand for that product lowers. When demand lowers, the value lowers. And that doesn't even take into account the doubt that creeps onto the market - is what I'm buying one of the superior versions or inferior versions? People are then less likely to spend like they're buying the superior product out of fear that they might be receiving the inferior product. But then buyers are now competing with more people for the inferior product (a lot more people in the world with $50 to spend than $500, for example), so it drives the cost of the inferior product up. Yeah sadly this will never happen. I think the vast VAST majority of litho owners don't even know about the collectors market for them. They just grabbed their litho from the show, took it home and carried on with their lives. It was pretty interesting though when that guy posted months ago showing someone on Ebay selling the same numbered litho as theirs! Was it St Louis? I don't remember what the end result was with that. Anyway, it would nice to have a database but even if EVERYBODY in this forum listed EVERY litho they had, it'd be a drop in the ocean and most litho numbers would never get a name attached to them. A litho registry would be pretty funny though. That's the sort of thing only reserved for million dollar Ferraris and paintings haha! I think the more important question is whether the VIP lithos that the band takes off the top are numbered or not. I have proof that at least some are, but honestly the longer we have this conversation, the less relevant it becomes. Has anybody noticed that the guy hasn't sold unnumbered lithos for a while now? He just put a bunch of lithos on Ebay again and now they're all magically numbered. I just can't trust what type of product he's selling I've never made any accusations. I just stand by what I know - and that is: He has sold unnumbered lithos from shows that we know sold numbered lithos. Those at the very least are lithos that are not part of the 'limited edition' run that was for sale and that is enough for me to consider them not worthy of purchase. If the situation is even worse and they're copies, that's another thing. But it's a fact he has sold unnumbered versions of known numbered lithos and the provenance of those lithos is vague and mysterious. That's enough to count me out, at least. He's based in New York though. His Ebay account says New York and a few people who have sent me private messages asking me to help verify lithos they've bought have also said that the tracking info he gave has them coming from New York. Can't say whether it's Brooklyn but it's definitely New York. He's only ever sold US lithos or Australian lithos that were available to purchase online from bandshirts. If you believe he's selling copies, that sounds like he only has access to stuff printed in the US. Euro lithos were distributed by a different company and so were Japan lithos. People who make art forgeries don't go around trying to sell the Mona Lisa, they go around selling lesser works. Not going to cause much of a stir if you sell someone a fake litho for $80, but if you try to sell a fake for $1000, you might end up biting off more than you can chew! I'm 99% certain Bandshirts and Gig-merch weren't third parties, they were the official merch distributor just like Creativeman was the distributor in Japan. I bought my New Zealand lithos from bandshirts and when they arrived with edge damage, I talked to bandshirts about it. He said that they got damaged in transit TO New Zealand so even the ones sold at the show were damaged. So they were all printed in Australia, shipped to NZ and then leftovers were shipped back. It just looks like that was the SOP for bandshirts and Gig-merch. Even Universal Japan sold a very small handful of leftover Japan merchandise on their website but it was all small stuff like leftover bandanas and badges. But yes, GNR really needs to sell their leftovers on their website. That's just lost money right there. Yeah absolutely amen to everything here. Make a limited edition of like 1000 available at the show, handnumbered. Then sell like 5000 online with printed numbers or something so that it's clear that it's different from the show version. As for why the artists don't sell their prints - like I said, the artists sell the designs to Bravado. I've had an artist who did multiple designs both for the US and Europe confirm this to me. I've also had management at Bravado state that they "control the rights to the lithograph artwork" (his words). I suspect Sara Ray's situation is slightly different and possibly this is why she was an exception. Technically her litho wasn't the 'official' litho of the show, that was Buhler's surfer design. Technically also, the designs she sold on her Etsy website were different - they were slightly larger (same paper size but the one sold at the show had a huge white border) and they were different colors. Not that this really should change anything but we can only guess that something was different with her arrangement. Personally I would prefer that the artists NOT sell them on their own website. Some artists don't have a website and it'd be a clusterfuck trying to get them all to sell them by the same rules. I would much rather GNR to sell them from the official GNR merch site. And yes, Ebay fucking sucks for not clamping down on reproductions. The douchebags selling $10 reprints on shitty A4 and A3 paper... how is this allowed? Pathetic sellers and pathetic Ebay for letting it happen. Ebay get their 10% cut on them, so they're in no rush to spend money or energy to fix the problem.
  2. I don't really know, I wasn't posting in here back then. I can see it being a contributing factor but can't imagine it was a huge effect.
  3. And yes, the earlier shows had plenty of leftovers because no one realized lithos were going to be 'a thing' back then.
  4. That looks legit to me. But I've never really doubted the numbered lithos out there. It's the ones without numbers that are not genuine to me, even if they're 'real'..... if that makes any sense. Like I said, I always thought it was fishy that he never sold any unnumbered lithos until people started asking him about the numbers. Then he suddenly started mixing numbered and unnumbered lithos. To me, it looks like the action of someone trying to make his story plausible by mixing in real lithos.
  5. well that's certainly possible - it's one of the major reasons i don't like that unnumbered fakes/reprints are on the market. everybody loses except the assholes selling them. i've said it before but these people shouldn't be rewarded for this sort of behavior.
  6. is the Vegas 2 numbered? If it is then it's probably real.
  7. This forum and this thread in particular is a huge wealth of knowledge and I'm definitely grateful to have made friends (and trades!) here. I've learned a metric fuckton of stuff from here that I wouldn't have learned from anywhere else. We have a lot of people here with a lot of lithos, a lot of experience buying lithos from different concerts in different countries and I think we're all on the same page. I understand some people don't care about the limited nature of these lithos and would be totally happy with a $1 color photocopy print, but man I hate the idea of giving sketchy sellers money for anything, especially fakes
  8. Haha Well look, I obviously can't discount the possibility that there are unnumbered lithos out there in the wild. I mean, let's face it there's almost no limited edition product out there that is confined to literally the number they said they made. One of my favorite cars ever, the Mclaren F1 LM, was limited to a production run of five cars to commemorate the five Mclaren cars that finished the 1995 24 Hours of Le Mans. But of course, even for that car, six of them exist because another one was built and kept by Mclaren. If - and it's a big if - if these unnumbered lithos are from the same batch as the genuine numbered lithos, I'm STILL skeptical of the sellers "VIP spares" story. I have multiple reputable sources that VIP lithos are numbered and am inclined to believe them. What is far more likely to me is that they are print overruns. And if a real numbered litho sells for $50, I am sure as shit not going to spend more than that on a copy. It's only a matter of time before someone buys a fake with a shitty attempt at handnumbering.
  9. I don't have an opinion either way about the shirts since I don't collect them or pay attention to them. I've only ever been discussing lithos. Posters are too different from numbered lithographs in my opinion. I always go back to a quote I heard on a TV show as a kid - "A lie is most convincingly hidden between two truths." The best way to hide a fake is to mix it in with real items. That way if anything is ever questioned, this exact type of conversation pops up. Someone just says "but look at all these real ones!" and the seller gets the benefit of the doubt. That's how fake paintings are sold for millions. People mix them in with real paintings and the fakes are assumed to be real as well. I always found it VERY strange that he was selling ONLY unnumbered lithos and then when people started to question him... ... wow now he's selling numbered ones as well. He had nothing but unnumbered 2016 US lithos and around the time multiple people started questioning his lithos, suddenly he started listing fairly cheap numbered lithos - Australian lithos that we all know were available online to purchase for cost price, cheap 2017 US lithos etc. Investing in a few real ones to sell to give authenticity to the fake ones you're selling is a sneaky-smart decision if it helps keep the money flowing in. As for the solid feedback, two reasons: 1) If you paid $50 for a fake item when a real one would cost $300, you'd be happy to leave positive feedback too. You're happy you got a convincing fake for cheap instead of blowing out your budget on a real one 2) If you complain on Ebay now, all the seller needs to do is accept a return and refund the money. Once the buyer receives the money back, they're not allowed to leave feedback. If they've already left feedback, the feedback is deleted. This happened to me when I bought an 'authentic' patch for a sports jersey that ended up being an obvious fake. I left negative feedback, demanded a full refund. I got a full refund and Ebay sent me a message saying my feedback was removed since I received a refund. Ebay feedback is NOT what it used to be. Been there, done that. It usually doesn't work that way. The artist sells the design to Bravado and the production of the lithos is usually out of their hands. At the end of the day - this is how I feel: The numbered lithos are exactly that - numbered lithos. Hypothetically, if I get a litho direct from the printer that I know is legit but unnumbered, to me that's still not real. Anybody who has collected limited edition prints knows how "Artist Prints" are usually valued much, much, much lower than the real run. They're leftovers, offcuts, imperfect prints, damaged prints etc. If these lithos are magic 'extras' then they're like APs except even less valuable since we don't know where they come from and they're being sold by some random guy. So it just amazes me people are willing to pay more for a sketchy litho than the original cost price of a real litho. If Bravado was out there making clearly and obviously unnumbered lithos that were easy to distinguish from the numbered lithos and they were charging $25 a pop then I would be all for that. The non-limited lithos would be clearly different, people would know which type they were getting and people wouldn't be paying limited edition prices for something that is obviously not limited edition. I know there's a lot of people out there who 'just want a cheap one' and aren't willing to pay the premium prices some of these designs are going for now but in my opinion, this isn't the way to do it. Paying premium prices for lithos that are not part of the proper numbered run disadvantages pretty much everybody. - It legitimizes the sellers' practices and rewards them for doing the wrong thing - It drives up the prices of fake lithos, rewarding all the scumbags - "Oh if the fakes are just the same as the real ones, I guess I'm willing to pay a little bit more for a fake" - It reduces the price of real lithos, punishing people selling real lithos - "Oh if a fake is just the same as the real ones, then why should I pay more for a numbered one?" - It promotes flooding the market with non-authentic lithos - It makes it more difficult to distinguish what's real and what's not Obviously people are allowed to spend their money on whatever they want. I just don't like rewarding bootleggers. Even if it means I have to pay a premium for a litho to know it's legit, at least I'll know it's legit.
  10. My two cents on the "VIP lithos" line: I have three anecdotal stories you can all take at face value: 1) One of my good friends literally had to wait to buy a litho because the staff were still numbering them. He asked for three and they were reluctant to sell him so many. The staff said there weren't many and "30 of them already went to the band" - Correct me if I'm wrong here but if the band had their own bunch of lithos that were unnumbered, then it shouldn't matter how many they took because they wouldn't be counted as part of the stack to sell. They could take 30, they could take 300, it doesn't matter - if they were unnumbered, there would still be a full numbered set being sold to fans. 2) I have one of those "VIP" lithos. It was originally given to one of the crew, who asked for one for a friend that lived in the city they were performing in that night that ended up not being able to make it to the show. The crew member got other cool things like a signed program. Their friend liked the program more and didn't feel attached to the litho so I ended up with it. It is numbered in the single digits. This seems to correlate at least to the idea that the band takes 20 or 30 "off the top" and they get the lower numbers. Also perhaps the reason I think why nobody has ever seen a litho with a super low number for sale. The lowest for sale on Ebay has been like... #25? Not saying it happens at EVERY show, but it does seem to make sense. 3) Duff autographed an Osaka litho and auctioned it off on Facebook to pay for... uhh, someone's medical bills? Or something? I don't remember. Anyway, the guy who bought it posted a pic of it on Nightrain and it was number #14. Which again seems to correlate with the above two stories - The band gets a bunch of the lithos, usually off the top and they're usually low numbers. As far as I'm concerned, if it's a concert with a numbered litho (ie - nearly all of them) then a litho without a number is not genuine. Buyers, please BE CAREFUL. There's also a lot of people selling 'prints' and 'reprints' on Ebay. Some are sneakier than others. Some don't even try to hide it and 'reprint' them on shitty A4 pages, it's unreal and pathetic. I know some people might just be happy with a copy, but please don't reward these people for doing the wrong thing.
  11. He's right - some of them were unnumbered such as Foxboro and the New Jersey devil litho. Las Vegas 2016 was definitely numbered though, so buyer beware.
  12. lithorati seems to have the scoop: http://lithorati.com/na2017leg2/2017-11-17 Las Vegas Slot.html
  13. Ooh good point. Sorry, didn't bother to look at the rating since his is the only one for sale at the moment on Ebay.
  14. Seems to be one on Ebay at the moment: https://www.ebay.com/itm/122919599723 Price is a bit high but you can make an offer.
  15. You could be offering 20 Milwaukees, I still doubt anyone with any of those lithos is going to take you seriously. Milwaukee is a VERY recent lithograph, was reasonably plentiful (300 copies), was not exactly popular and even at its peak was only selling on Ebay for around $150. Take away Paypal and Ebay fees and that's a $120 litho max for anybody really desperate for it. Cincinnati and New Orleans were both like, 18 months ago. They were both rarer and way more popular than Milwaukee. Cincinnati and New Orleans were both selling for $350+ a year ago and would probably command a lot more since anybody who has one for sale doesn't have much competition. Paris and London 1 are limited to 100 and 150 copies and are two of the most popular and expensive lithos from the entire tour. I've heard more than one story from people on this forum who have offered $1000 for London 1 and Paris and been knocked back. People are emotionally attached to a lot of the really nice lithos so you're gonna have to dig deeper to convince them to let go of them - assuming anybody out there has any for sale. Sorry man but someone would have to have rocks in their head to trade any of those for a Milwaukee. I'm not trying to insult, just want you to be more realistic.