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The 'more is more' approach of Chinese Democracy


Rovim

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I was thinking about the difficult task of recreating a band's old, popular sound that is loved by many people, and trying to recreate it with new members, each bringing his own style to the new line up.

The first thing Axl probably had to do was to recognize what exactly the Gn'R sound was: what he should try to build again and what he should change, or at least keep it more in the background of the new record's priorities with the intention of injecting modern feel and influences into it.

The balance between the old and new sound was going to, in a large part, decide if it's going to work for the old school fans that know and love the back catalog or push them away from it.

After listening to Chinese Democracy for a long time, I'm starting to feel like I can detect where it successfully introduced new elements to the Guns sound, recreated in some cases a 'retro' Guns feel, and also, where it failed at delivering the Gn'R standard.

All of this is relevant, because obviously Axl kept the Guns N' Roses name.

Sometimes, a simple riff and a great solo can be the main focus of a classic song. I think that idea served this band very well, but even when in some UYI songs there wasn't any big riff, It's still felt like classic Guns and showed this band was not solely a riff rock band. Imo Axl relied on his signature vocals and epic song stracture to build this album around musical parts that worked, no matter how simple they are or how small (compared to the big riffs from previous records)

This opened the door for a lot of new possibilities for the band because they could now piece together a lot of smaller ideas to form big songs that are more open and versatile.

The 'more is more' approach was always the bread and butter of Gn'R but I think it was used differently for Chinese Democracy as a way to expand the vocabulary of the Gn'R sound, but also to not become dated and stale.

I love Chinese Democracy and I think Axl made a great record that sounds like Gn'R in modern times for the most part. I also understand that there are important sounds of the old Guns that are very crucial to a real Gn'R record and are connected directly to how you approach making such an iconic band's music.

My point is: do you think Chinese Democracy could have reflected the Gn'R sound better than it has while not being dated?

do you think the balance between old and new is right? what worked for the album and what failed in your opinion?

Edited by Rovim
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do you think the balance between old and new is right? what worked for the album and what failed in your opinion?

What fails is the overworking, obviously. Its not a cohesive body of work, that an album should always be, and chinese D is not cohesive and complete by a long shot.

Moby, who Axl was trying to recruit to produce his record, said that Axl was like a washed out dog, insecure about what he was doing. A sad mess of a man.

Descriptions of the jams when they were writing, before they started "producing it", described hours upon hours of ideas and little bits and pieces.

To end up doing that, and coming up with an album ten years later. its a failure. and the whole cut n paste, stitching in old to the new and this to the that, it really does show and you can hear it going on.

I think if axl and what band he used to have back then, would have run with the OMG sound like I think it was the original plan, Sean Beavan producing, or the Zutaut version. I think those might have been succesful records.

But when you get one drummer, doing like um... playing another drummers parts back in, from notation? nah. its just not how you write a record. and they ended up pasting a third goddamned guy on top! thats just insanity.

I dont even want to go into why its just so wrong to have several producers, mixers and engineers, between so many years, just working on one album.

----------------edit job:--------------

yeah, just to add something off a different note than my first reply:

consider the title song, Chinese Democracy.

How many damn intros you need to have to start such a simple song. If I woulda been the producer, I would have cut all the building up shit and just started with maybe a second of silence, straight into the Nine Inch Nails guitarsound big riff, and the axl scream.

None of that unnecessary crap at the beginning. There are types of songs and genres of music where such tomfoolery is appropriate, but a simple banging song like Chinese Democracy, its silly and embarrassing. Such a huge buildup to such a simple little song... blah.

Edited by phaeryen
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do you think the balance between old and new is right? what worked for the album and what failed in your opinion?

What fails is the overworking, obviously. Its not a cohesive body of work, that an album should always be, and chinese D is not cohesive and complete by a long shot.

Moby, who Axl was trying to recruit to produce his record, said that Axl was like a washed out dog, insecure about what he was doing. A sad mess of a man.

I will agree about the lack of cohesiveness on CD.

When did Moby say that? I don't recall that...

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Probably one of the more intellectual questions tossed around here lately.

Axl must have spent a whole decade of conceptualizing Chinese while analyzing the merits of the new band and what elements to retain of the Guns sound. By his own admission, the earliest incarnation of the new lineup tried to recreate the dynamite Aerosmith-Sleaze the old band did so well...and it wasn't organic.

So with infinite time to steer the music in every direction, there must be DAT tapes of millions of approaches.

To me, what spelled the commercial death of the album wasn't the 'more is more' approach. It wasn't the endless tinkering and bells and whistles. It was just that Guns N Roses is a band whose whole career was built on the big hooks, and there is a disappointing lack of Anthemic drive to any of the album. The choruses aren't fist-pounders, and as good as the songs may be, I'm always waiting for the hook that never comes.

I feel that if Axl can get a song out there with a chorus section as memorable as some of the older material, people would have a hard time not paying attention.

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You can't make a player into something he/she is not. If the new band is better at writing songs like Shacklers, then they should write songs like Shacklers. If they try an go after something they are not believe me, it won't be pretty.

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Their sound evolved from Appetite to the Illusions, most of CD does sound like the next step. Ive always thought CD was something Axl had inside himself he had to get out,doing that plus keepin faith to the classic Guns sound wasnt easy to do. But for the most part part I think it sounds like changing with the times updated gnr. Its just so all over the place that its hard to get a hold of its sound. I agree that CD should have came out around '99 or 2000, with the OMG sound full throttle and ran with it. I think that would have been a more cohesive album and easier to get a feel for, even if it was more different/experimental than the one we got. I love CD, but I wouldn't mind if Axl got out what he needed to with CD, and take this current line up in the studio. Then you would probably get your classic guns feel back.

Edited by J Dog
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Guest Satanisk_Slakt

CD clearly shows that more is less. Same with the Illusions. Both would have been much better without all noises all over the albums.

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Guest gunns5

My MAJOR piss off with chinese democracy is the minute long intro to the title track, It was great on the first listen, but after sitting through it 5000 times im fucking sick of it, just cut it to the guitar intro + scream, such a fucking bloated intro thats just jibberish chinese people

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You can't make a player into something he/she is not. If the new band is better at writing songs like Shacklers, then they should write songs like Shacklers. If they try an go after something they are not believe me, it won't be pretty.

That's what I thought in regards to the end of the OP, CD works on faster more clunky riffs that work better behind vocals rather than on their own (like on AFD). I don't expect an AFD style rocker because the Chinese Democracy guitarists, minus Bumblefoot who as far as we know hasn't written anything , aren't riffy guitarists like slash/izzy. They're better at playing background riffs to keep rhythm or long, epic solos. Finck is the only one that seems to be able to do a good short-length Slashy solo, where I'd call in Buckethead to do the epics and Bumblefoot to do crazy shit or just not be in for solos.

Regarding Bumblefoot, while some may look at the licks he added on as just more overproduction/blahblah I think without him the rockers on this album would've sounded too industrial. Chinese Democracy was improved sooo much by Bumblefoot IMO, before it had this... heavy industrial grunge feel or something. Now someone can argue that they can call it a form of Hard Rock.

SOD sounded right out of UYI, minus the slightly overproduced vocals (I notice it towards the end). Axl+Finck writing can produce old-GNRish sounding songs but I wouldn't want that the whole way through.

Just some thoughts on CD.

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Guest gunns5

You can't make a player into something he/she is not. If the new band is better at writing songs like Shacklers, then they should write songs like Shacklers. If they try an go after something they are not believe me, it won't be pretty.

That's what I thought in regards to the end of the OP, CD works on faster more clunky riffs that work better behind vocals rather than on their own (like on AFD). I don't expect an AFD style rocker because the Chinese Democracy guitarists, minus Bumblefoot who as far as we know hasn't written anything , aren't riffy guitarists like slash/izzy. They're better at playing background riffs to keep rhythm or long, epic solos. Finck is the only one that seems to be able to do a good short-length Slashy solo, where I'd call in Buckethead to do the epics and Bumblefoot to do crazy shit or just not be in for solos.

Regarding Bumblefoot, while some may look at the licks he added on as just more overproduction/blahblah I think without him the rockers on this album would've sounded too industrial. Chinese Democracy was improved sooo much by Bumblefoot IMO, before it had this... heavy industrial grunge feel or something. Now someone can argue that they can call it a form of Hard Rock.

SOD sounded right out of UYI, minus the slightly overproduced vocals (I notice it towards the end). Axl+Finck writing can produce old-GNRish sounding songs but I wouldn't want that the whole way through.

Just some thoughts on CD.

I put the blues from 2002 and the studio version street of dreams in audacity next to each other and apart from the raspier vocals from S.O.D , Axls range is basically 1:1 with the 2002 live version. Obviously you cant match the 'thats what id tell ya' added bits, but the other bits its near 1:1 , even the intro..

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Regarding Bumblefoot, while some may look at the licks he added on as just more overproduction/blahblah I think without him the rockers on this album would've sounded too industrial. Chinese Democracy was improved sooo much by Bumblefoot IMO

bumble is the unsung hero of CD.

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after UYI I sort of expected GNR to modernize a bit, glimpses on Garden of Eden, My World, Axl liking NIN. So CD wasn't a big surprise. Somehow the big choruses weren't there on UYI either, in keeping with the times. It was the covers that brought the choruses more. They seemed to get it right production wise for that time. To me Sorry is pretty close to Don't Cry. SOD isn't unlike Estranged meets Yesterdays, just another GNR song, could have been on UYI. Maybe just putting a big dumb chorus in it. sometimes I really think the lyrics were influenced by rap songs, they flow. But there also very Bob Dylan/Elton John so hard to say. When I go back to listen to AFD, I'm surprised how much like Chi Dem it is, with all the little solos and parts. What is missing from CD is those harmonizing riffs, like in Out Ta Get Me towards the end, on UYI the full bloodedness had gone but Shotgun Blues still had that kind of thing. But overall CD took the step forward with the times, in the way that a band like GNR would, in that they always sort looked back for inspiration.

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do you think the balance between old and new is right? what worked for the album and what failed in your opinion?

What fails is the overworking, obviously. Its not a cohesive body of work, that an album should always be, and chinese D is not cohesive and complete by a long shot.

Moby, who Axl was trying to recruit to produce his record, said that Axl was like a washed out dog, insecure about what he was doing. A sad mess of a man.

I will agree about the lack of cohesiveness on CD.

When did Moby say that? I don't recall that...

Moby never said it.

He said Axl was like a "beaten dog", no mention of him being a "sad mess" or "washed out" - phaeryen is talking shizz.

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do you think the balance between old and new is right? what worked for the album and what failed in your opinion?

What fails is the overworking, obviously. Its not a cohesive body of work, that an album should always be, and chinese D is not cohesive and complete by a long shot.

Moby, who Axl was trying to recruit to produce his record, said that Axl was like a washed out dog, insecure about what he was doing. A sad mess of a man.

I will agree about the lack of cohesiveness on CD.

When did Moby say that? I don't recall that...

Moby never said it.

He said Axl was like a "beaten dog", no mention of him being a "sad mess" or "washed out" - phaeryen is talking shizz.

you go and dig that shit up, he wasn't nice is what he was.

if I come and wash your dog, or beat it down with a stick, which will leave it more broken and fucked up? believe me, you don't want me beating your dog with a fucking stick. unless you want to get rid of it.

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do you think the balance between old and new is right? what worked for the album and what failed in your opinion?

What fails is the overworking, obviously. Its not a cohesive body of work, that an album should always be, and chinese D is not cohesive and complete by a long shot.

Moby, who Axl was trying to recruit to produce his record, said that Axl was like a washed out dog, insecure about what he was doing. A sad mess of a man.

I will agree about the lack of cohesiveness on CD.

When did Moby say that? I don't recall that...

Moby never said it.

He said Axl was like a "beaten dog", no mention of him being a "sad mess" or "washed out" - phaeryen is talking shizz.

you go and dig that shit up, he wasn't nice is what he was.

if I come and wash your dog, or beat it down with a stick, which will leave it more broken and fucked up? believe me, you don't want me beating your dog with a fucking stick. unless you want to get rid of it.

Shut up you dick. You said he said it, you dig it up. Good luck finding it, he never said it!

Here's what he said:

"He seemed emotionally reserved and a little bit suspicious," says the techno whiz Moby, who spent some time with Axl in California in 1997. "He seemed a little bit like a beaten dog."

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=32

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You can't make a player into something he/she is not. If the new band is better at writing songs like Shacklers, then they should write songs like Shacklers. If they try an go after something they are not believe me, it won't be pretty.

this

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do you think the balance between old and new is right? what worked for the album and what failed in your opinion?

What fails is the overworking, obviously. Its not a cohesive body of work, that an album should always be, and chinese D is not cohesive and complete by a long shot.

Moby, who Axl was trying to recruit to produce his record, said that Axl was like a washed out dog, insecure about what he was doing. A sad mess of a man.

I will agree about the lack of cohesiveness on CD.

When did Moby say that? I don't recall that...

Moby never said it.

He said Axl was like a "beaten dog", no mention of him being a "sad mess" or "washed out" - phaeryen is talking shizz.

you go and dig that shit up, he wasn't nice is what he was.

if I come and wash your dog, or beat it down with a stick, which will leave it more broken and fucked up? believe me, you don't want me beating your dog with a fucking stick. unless you want to get rid of it.

Shut up you dick. You said he said it, you dig it up. Good luck finding it, he never said it!

Here's what he said:

"He seemed emotionally reserved and a little bit suspicious," says the techno whiz Moby, who spent some time with Axl in California in 1997. "He seemed a little bit like a beaten dog."

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=32

but I was not lying, as you imply. you motherless fuck-a-doo.

Edited by phaeryen
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do you think the balance between old and new is right? what worked for the album and what failed in your opinion?

What fails is the overworking, obviously. Its not a cohesive body of work, that an album should always be, and chinese D is not cohesive and complete by a long shot.

Moby, who Axl was trying to recruit to produce his record, said that Axl was like a washed out dog, insecure about what he was doing. A sad mess of a man.

I will agree about the lack of cohesiveness on CD.

When did Moby say that? I don't recall that...

Moby never said it.

He said Axl was like a "beaten dog", no mention of him being a "sad mess" or "washed out" - phaeryen is talking shizz.

you go and dig that shit up, he wasn't nice is what he was.

if I come and wash your dog, or beat it down with a stick, which will leave it more broken and fucked up? believe me, you don't want me beating your dog with a fucking stick. unless you want to get rid of it.

Shut up you dick. You said he said it, you dig it up. Good luck finding it, he never said it!

Here's what he said:

"He seemed emotionally reserved and a little bit suspicious," says the techno whiz Moby, who spent some time with Axl in California in 1997. "He seemed a little bit like a beaten dog."

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=32

but I was not lying, as you imply. you motherless fuck-a-doo.

Well you weren't telling the truth were you, what would you call that?

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do you think the balance between old and new is right? what worked for the album and what failed in your opinion?

What fails is the overworking, obviously. Its not a cohesive body of work, that an album should always be, and chinese D is not cohesive and complete by a long shot.

Moby, who Axl was trying to recruit to produce his record, said that Axl was like a washed out dog, insecure about what he was doing. A sad mess of a man.

I will agree about the lack of cohesiveness on CD.

When did Moby say that? I don't recall that...

Moby never said it.

He said Axl was like a "beaten dog", no mention of him being a "sad mess" or "washed out" - phaeryen is talking shizz.

you go and dig that shit up, he wasn't nice is what he was.

if I come and wash your dog, or beat it down with a stick, which will leave it more broken and fucked up? believe me, you don't want me beating your dog with a fucking stick. unless you want to get rid of it.

Shut up you dick. You said he said it, you dig it up. Good luck finding it, he never said it!

Here's what he said:

"He seemed emotionally reserved and a little bit suspicious," says the techno whiz Moby, who spent some time with Axl in California in 1997. "He seemed a little bit like a beaten dog."

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=32

but I was not lying, as you imply. you motherless fuck-a-doo.

Obvious cupcake is obvious

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You can't make a player into something he/she is not. If the new band is better at writing songs like Shacklers, then they should write songs like Shacklers. If they try an go after something they are not believe me, it won't be pretty.

Yeah, but I don't think Shacklers represents the sound of Chinese Democracy. I also think that the musicians were capable of writing in a lot of different styles and that was natural to them. Bucket is a good example.

This is an album that has This I Love and Catcher from one side, and than Better and Shacklers from the other.

I kinda like the fact it has a lot of directions like that but maybe the problematic aspect of that, is that it's almost like a frankenstein of an album, never really satisfied with one clear direction, even if it works. Like a variety show, even within some of the songs, It's more experimental for a Gn'R material.

I wouldn't want it any other way as It's exactly what I wanted, but I can really see now why some old school fans can't connect with it, even if they like the songs outside of the Gn'R expectations.

Edited by Rovim
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You can't make a player into something he/she is not. If the new band is better at writing songs like Shacklers, then they should write songs like Shacklers. If they try an go after something they are not believe me, it won't be pretty.

Yeah, but I don't think Shacklers represents the sound of Chinese Democracy. I also think that the musicians were capable of writing in a lot of different styles and that was natural to them. Bucket is a good example.

This is an album that has This I Love and Catcher from one side, and than Better and Shacklers from the other.

I kinda like it has a lot of directions like that but maybe the problematic aspect of that, is that it's almost like a frankenstein of an album, never really satisfied with one clear direction, even if it works. Like a variey show, even within some of the songs, It's more experimental for a Gn'R material.

I woudn't want it any other way as It's exactly what I wanted, but I can really see now why some old school fans can't connect with it, even if they like the songs outside of the Gn'R expectations.

They probably should've put the more experimental material on one side, and the more traditional material on the other.

The Stones did this with Tattoo You--One side was rockers, the other ballads, and it worked out well.

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I think classic Guns fans will appreciate the next album a lot more (unless they hate current GN'R no matter how good the music is).

I think with Ron and DJ helping with the writing process, they're gonna put out some pretty solid tunes. Though many people greatly dislike DJ, I still feel like he has a classic rocker in him that can play some mean riffs.

And I think Ron is pure genius. The man can play anything. He can also write some of the most emotional solos too. His solo in the song Breaking from Normal is magical. There's so much emotion in it.

I just get a really great feeling from the current line-up, especially after seeing them live.

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I think classic Guns fans will appreciate the next album a lot more (unless they hate current GN'R no matter how good the music is).

I think with Ron and DJ helping with the writing process, they're gonna put out some pretty solid tunes. Though many people greatly dislike DJ, I still feel like he has a classic rocker in him that can play some mean riffs.

And I think Ron is pure genius. The man can play anything. He can also write some of the most emotional solos too. His solo in the song Breaking from Normal is magical. There's so much emotion in it.

I just get a really great feeling from the current line-up, especially after seeing them live.

Axl said the next album will feature the same players, as in the Robin/Bucket duo and Brain with possibly Bumble. Besides, how can you even begin to know that classic Guns fans will appreciate the next album when you've yet to hear a note from it?

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Axl said the next album will feature the same players, as in the Robin/Bucket duo and Brain with possibly Bumble. Besides, how can you even begin to know that classic Guns fans will appreciate the next album when you've yet to hear a note from it?

Axl said a lot of things ... he's not exactly a "man of his word." :crazy:

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I think classic Guns fans will appreciate the next album a lot more (unless they hate current GN'R no matter how good the music is).

I think with Ron and DJ helping with the writing process, they're gonna put out some pretty solid tunes. Though many people greatly dislike DJ, I still feel like he has a classic rocker in him that can play some mean riffs.

And I think Ron is pure genius. The man can play anything. He can also write some of the most emotional solos too. His solo in the song Breaking from Normal is magical. There's so much emotion in it.

I just get a really great feeling from the current line-up, especially after seeing them live.

Besides, how can you even begin to know that classic Guns fans will appreciate the next album when you've yet to hear a note from it?

I didn't say I "knew" anything. I said I think they'll appreciate it more. It's just a feeling I have.

Don't judge, bro. :P

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