GUNS N' ROSES Frontman Stops Monterrey Concert After Fans 'Throw S**t' On Stage - Oct. 24, 2011

[Used To Love Me]

I know but you're talking to someone who checks GnR "news" on a daily basis, someone who travelled to see them, someone who is interested in the band members other than Axl, someone who REALLY cares about them.

It's not the case of everybody in the crowd. Some of them only bought their ticket to have a good time and listen to songs they used to like back in the day ( they probably don't expect the band to show up THAT late ) so that's why he should expect them to act the way they do, as stupid as it is, if the show starts on the following day.

Even the most casual fans of GNR that I encounter are aware of these things happening.

I have been to plenty of concerts and in a LOT of them people threw shit at the performers. One time I was at an Ozzfest and one of the guitarists of SOAD spit on some dude and almost got into a full on fist fight with him after the guy had tossed something at him. They went on stage right on time.

Stuff got thrown at Megadeth when I saw them too. Dave Mustaine is a pretty nice guy - did he deserve it?

[The Glow Inc.]

Exactly. Out of 15 000 people, statistically, there's a good chance that a few hundreds of them appear to be assholes.

If you make a drunk asshole wait ( for hours ) odds are he will eventually realize that he might not get to see the show that he feels the ninety bucks he paid entitle him to see in its entirety, and thus, he'll behave like an asshole.

It's not RIGHT, but both are clearly linked...

EDIT : well, I say : if you come on time and the crowd disrespects you : fine, flip them off and leave.

If you show up the next day, you can't expect it not to happen. There WILL be a reaction.

Edited October 26, 2011 by The Glow Inc.

[Used To Love Me]

I've read that post already, I don't need it reposted. It's faulty logic.

This is the same thing as "she was asking for it."

No it isn't and you know it as does anybody else capable of logical rational thought. Let me break it down for you very simply so please answer me the following questions?

1. Out of 15,000 people in a venue does EVERYBODY expect the show to possibly start 3 hours late?

2. Out of that group of people is it likely that some of the crowd are less than sensible?

3. Is is possible that some of the less fine and upstanding of the assembled throng are likely to get a little upset standing around for three hours past the scheduled start time?

4. Are the late starts likely to exacerbate any potential silliness within certain elements of the audience?

5. Is Axl aware that this could be an issue?

Are you planning on becoming a defense attorney?

Here's a situation close to what you are describing, only in more day to day terms. I work in customer service. When some 'less fine and upstanding' individuals aren't happy about something (long lines, etc.) they act like assholes and swear and threaten, etc. I, not being one to take kindly to this sort of thing, often have choice words for this sort of behavior and have even refused service in the past. Does this action then give this customer the right to throw things at me? To assault me in some way?

Remember, he came to buy what I had to offer - I didn't go pandering to him. He saw the line when he walked in.

It's abstract, sure, and it doesn't fit 100%, but it's the same concept. Even if every single concert goer is pissed about the late start, the ONE who crosses the line and throws shit is still MORE WRONG than the guy who started the show late. That's it.

[Dazey]

If you come on time and the crowd disrespects you : fine, flip them off and leave.

If you show up the next day, you can't expect it not to happen. There WILL be a reaction.

[Used To Love Me]

If you come on time and the crowd disrespects you : fine, flip them off and leave.

If you show up the next day, you can't expect it not to happen. There WILL be a reaction.

"Seriously, I mean, look at the way she was dressed... "

[The Glow Inc.]

If you come on time and the crowd disrespects you : fine, flip them off and leave.

If you show up the next day, you can't expect it not to happen. There WILL be a reaction.

"Seriously, I mean, look at the way she was dressed... "

"Well, he robbed me off 90 bucks, so I punched him right in the face" is a more appropriate comparison.

[Dazey]

Here's a situation close to what you are describing, only in more day to day terms. I work in customer service. When some 'less fine and upstanding' individuals aren't happy about something (long lines, etc.) they act like assholes and swear and threaten, etc. I, not being one to take kindly to this sort of thing, often have choice words for this sort of behavior and have even refused service in the past. Does this action then give this customer the right to throw things at me? To assault me in some way?

Remember, he came to buy what I had to offer - I didn't go pandering to him. He saw the line when he walked in.

It's abstract, sure, and it doesn't fit 100%, but it's the same concept. Even if every single concert goer is pissed about the late start, the ONE who crosses the line and throws shit is still MORE WRONG than the guy who started the show late. That's it.

It doesn't even fit remotely to be honest despite the very tenuous connection of dissatisfaction. A better comparison would be you sitting at the front of a long line of pissed off customers with a beer in one hand and a ciggy in a the other, watching the football on TV and telling them you'll get to them when you can be bothered. That's the crux of the matter, it's not simple unavoidable complications it's the attitude of one man towards the people who made him who he is today. Oh and in the scenario I described should you find yourself the target of the occasional empty paper cup missile then yeah you probably did have it coming.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Dazey Does Dallas

[Used To Love Me]

If you come on time and the crowd disrespects you : fine, flip them off and leave.

If you show up the next day, you can't expect it not to happen. There WILL be a reaction.

"Seriously, I mean, look at the way she was dressed... "

"Well, he robbed me off 90 bucks, so I punched him right in the face" is a more appropriate comparison.

Sure, if he came to your house and stole your money. (BTW, if Axl had stopped the show after barely playing one song there would be a refund.)

[Dazey]

"Seriously, I mean, look at the way she was dressed... "

Nope, completely worthless analogy unless you're insinuating in some way that "the way she was dressed" somehow cost me $90 (which wouldn't be the first time) then made me wait for her to put on a show for three hours that I couldn't get home from? Even then it's a stretch at best.

The point is I have no vested interest in how a random person in the street dresses. I didn't buy tickets to see it and I don't think it's disrespecting me in any way to have to witness it. Also comparing rape to the occasional beverage receptical projectile is a little far fetched don't you think? I mean if somebody were to jump up on stage and give Axl one up the tradesman's entrance I'd think that a little extreme no matter how late he was getting the show started.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Dazey Does Dallas

[The Glow Inc.]

Well, just imagine you buy tickets for an event that is supposed to take place some day, you show up, and it appears that the entire event has been rescheduled by surprise on the following day and you are only left with two choices : fuck off home and don't get a refund, attend the first half of the event and then fuck off home and don't get a refund.

Wouldn't you say that it's a sort of scam / robbery ?

You'd be super pissed if it wasn't a GnR concert...

[Used To Love Me]

I've read that post already, I don't need it reposted. It's faulty logic.

This is the same thing as "she was asking for it."

No it isn't and you know it as does anybody else capable of logical rational thought. Let me break it down for you very simply so please answer me the following questions?

1. Out of 15,000 people in a venue does EVERYBODY expect the show to possibly start 3 hours late?

2. Out of that group of people is it likely that some of the crowd are less than sensible?

3. Is is possible that some of the less fine and upstanding of the assembled throng are likely to get a little upset standing around for three hours past the scheduled start time?

4. Are the late starts likely to exacerbate any potential silliness within certain elements of the audience?

5. Is Axl aware that this could be an issue?

Are you planning on becoming a defense attorney?

Here's a situation close to what you are describing, only in more day to day terms. I work in customer service. When some 'less fine and upstanding' individuals aren't happy about something (long lines, etc.) they act like assholes and swear and threaten, etc. I, not being one to take kindly to this sort of thing, often have choice words for this sort of behavior and have even refused service in the past. Does this action then give this customer the right to throw things at me? To assault me in some way?

Remember, he came to buy what I had to offer - I didn't go pandering to him. He saw the line when he walked in.

It's abstract, sure, and it doesn't fit 100%, but it's the same concept. Even if every single concert goer is pissed about the late start, the ONE who crosses the line and throws shit is still MORE WRONG than the guy who started the show late. That's it.

It doesn't even fit remotely to be honest despite the very tenuous connection of dissatisfaction. A better comparison would be you sitting at the front of a long line of pissed off customers with a beer in one hand and a ciggy in a the other, watching the football on TV and telling them you'll get to them when you can be bothered. That's the crux of the matter, it's not simple unavoidable complications it's the attitude of one man towards the people who made him who he is today. Oh and in the scenario I described should you find yourself the target of the occasional empty paper cup missile then yeah you probably did have it coming.

Except you have NO IDEA what the reasons are. The issue here isn't whether or not its cool for GNR to start late (we would ALL prefer not to wait) but whether or not it's ok to act like a dick and assault people when things don't go your way. You can't say "Oh well, he should expect that" because he shouldn't HAVE to expect that, much in the same way a woman should have to expect someone will sexually assault her if she dresses slutty. Does individual behavior have consequences? Sure, but escalation is always wrong. "I went to a rock show and waited a long time" =/= "I am allowed to throw shit at people."

Also, and this really can't be overstated because it keeps coming up, the guy isn't whining and being a bitch about anything. He says "keep it up and I'll leave" and then finishes the show. NO BIG DEAL.

Well, just imagine you buy tickets for an event that is supposed to take place some day, you show up, and it appears that the entire event has been rescheduled by surprise on the following day and you are only left with two choices : fuck off home and don't get a refund, attend the first half of the event and then fuck off home and don't get a refund.

Wouldn't you say that it's a sort of scam / robbery ?

You'd be super pissed if it wasn't a GnR concert...

You keep making this 'next day' analogy and it's really only even slightly valid because in some cases the start time is after midnight. That is really not the same thing as rescheduling for the next day. We're talking about a couple of hours on a night you were already planning on being out late for anyway.

[Dazey]

Except you have NO IDEA what the reasons are. The issue here isn't whether or not its cool for GNR to start late (we would ALL prefer not to wait) but whether or not it's ok to act like a dick and assault people when things don't go your way. You can't say "Oh well, he should expect that" because he shouldn't HAVE to expect that, much in the same way a woman should have to expect someone will sexually assault her if she dresses slutty. Does individual behavior have consequences? Sure, but escalation is always wrong. "I went to a rock show and waited a long time" =/= "I am allowed to throw shit at people."

Also, and this really can't be overstated because it keeps coming up, the guy isn't whining and being a bitch about anything. He says "keep it up and I'll leave" and then finishes the show. NO BIG DEAL.

You're right I don't, I have no idea what the reasons were! I wasn't back stage, I wasn't a witness, I didn't see any of it first hand so I should really reserve comment. Of course I also wasn't a fly on the wall when he showed up an hour late at the last gig I attended before cancelling the show before the encore and storming off. I wasn't there at Reading last year, or at Leeds Festival in 2002 or the night of the Riots in Philadelphia during the aborted 02 tour. Yeah I get it there's always a good reason for all this kinda thing so I'll just keep my comments to myself so as not to upset anybody or rock the boat eh?

[Used To Love Me]

"Seriously, I mean, look at the way she was dressed... "

Nope, completely worthless analogy unless you're insinuating in some way that "the way she was dressed" somehow cost me $90 (which wouldn't be the first time) then made me wait for her to put on a show for three hours that I couldn't get home from? Even then it's a stretch at best.

The point is I have no vested interest in how a random person in the street dresses. I didn't buy tickets to see it and I don't think it's disrespecting me in any way to have to witness it. Also comparing rape to the occasional beverage receptical projectile is a little far fetched don't you think? I mean if somebody were to jump up on stage and give Axl one up the tradesman's entrance I'd think that a little extreme no matter how late he was getting the show started.

The comparison I am making is that it is being said that Axl's behavior exacerbates the behavior of a shitty person and that he, in turn, is somehow the cause of said behavior. It's not true.

What's with all of these people who can't get home from concerts? Even when i was 14 I didn't have this problem. Get a car, or a friend with a car. Jesus. I used to go to a show, stay out late, go to Denny's or Steak n' Shake and go to bed at dawn anyway. Not saying all of that is a legit option, but seriously the last thing on the band's mind should be worrying how people are going to get home... bus service in Orlando stops at like 9:00 pm - guess the concert should be at noon?

[The Glow Inc.]

Well.

Ok.

What do you say to the guy who went to the concert and who expected the band to actually come on time and made his plans accordingly ?

"Should have known better, HA !" ?

or

"Please fuck off home and refrain from throwing items at Axl."

or what ?

[Used To Love Me]

Except you have NO IDEA what the reasons are. The issue here isn't whether or not its cool for GNR to start late (we would ALL prefer not to wait) but whether or not it's ok to act like a dick and assault people when things don't go your way. You can't say "Oh well, he should expect that" because he shouldn't HAVE to expect that, much in the same way a woman should have to expect someone will sexually assault her if she dresses slutty. Does individual behavior have consequences? Sure, but escalation is always wrong. "I went to a rock show and waited a long time" =/= "I am allowed to throw shit at people."

Also, and this really can't be overstated because it keeps coming up, the guy isn't whining and being a bitch about anything. He says "keep it up and I'll leave" and then finishes the show. NO BIG DEAL.

You're right I don't, I have no idea what the reasons were! I wasn't back stage, I wasn't a witness, I didn't see any of it first hand so I should really reserve comment. Of course I also wasn't a fly on the wall when he showed up an hour late at the last gig I attended before cancelling the show before the encore and storming off. I wasn't there at Reading last year, or at Leeds Festival in 2002 or the night of the Riots in Philadelphia during the aborted 02 tour. Yeah I get it there's always a good reason for all this kinda thing so I'll just keep my comments to myself so as not to upset anybody or rock the boat eh?

Make all the comments you want. You'd have still been wrong to throw shit at anyone.

Well.

Ok.

What do you say to the guy who went to the concert and who expected the band to actually come on time and made his plans accordingly ?

"Should have known better, HA !" ?

or

"Please fuck off home and refrain from throwing items at Axl."

or what ?

Yes, I absolutely tell him to refrain from throwing things. Being late isn't a free pass to assault anyone. They COULD leave early, if they chose to, or they COULD not go in the first place. we are all responsible for our OWN actions and not those of anyone else - which is my ENTIRE POINT.

[The Glow Inc.]

No one is arguing that it isn't wrong to throw shit at people.

The problem is that you're considering this matter from a "right/wrong" point of view while we're considering it from a "causes/consequences" one.

Of course it's wrong...but there are things a band can do to reduce the statistical chances of it happening. That's all we're saying.

[Used To Love Me]

No one is arguing that it isn't wrong to throw shit at people.

The problem is that you're considering this matter from a "right/wrong" point of view while we're considering it from a "causes/consequences" one.

Of course it's wrong...but there are things a band can do to reduce the statistical chances of it happening. That's all we're saying.

And what you're saying is invalid. People are free to behave any way they want to without fear of being attacked or endangered. Axl Rose is inconsiderate to his fans on this issue, absolutely, but not deserving of that behavior. There is no way past that.

Statistically, he could reduce the chances of audience members throwing bottles at him to 0% by simply never going on tour again - I'd rather he go on late and people behave like human beings.

[Dazey]

The comparison I am making is that it is being said that Axl's behavior exacerbates the behavior of a shitty person and that he, in turn, is somehow the cause of said behavior. It's not true.

No your insinuation was that there is in some way an antagonism inherent in the wearing of revealing items of clothing by the opposite sex. An antagonism on a par with deliberately inconveniencing thousands of people who've paid money to see a show only to effectively be given the finger by the very person they paid to see.

[The Glow Inc.]

People are free to behave any way they want to without fear of being attacked or endangered.

They should, but are they, really, in the real world ?

[Dazey]

Yes, I absolutely tell him to refrain from throwing things. Being late isn't a free pass to assault anyone. They COULD leave early, if they chose to, or they COULD not go in the first place. we are all responsible for our OWN actions and not those of anyone else - which is my ENTIRE POINT.

How many people actually CHOOSE to though? Do you choose to leave when it gets to 2am and you've got a job to go to and kids to look after? Do you choose to leave when you have the choice of making it home that evening or having to pay $100+ for alternate travel just to make it to work the next day? The point is that even these actions are things that are forced on people against their will because Axl can't keep to a timetable! To be honest I'd expect this kind of attitude from a teenager with no responsibilities but GnR's fan base from back in the day no long fall into that category and as a 33 year old adult (according to your profile) I'm surprised you're not more critical.

[Used To Love Me]

The comparison I am making is that it is being said that Axl's behavior exacerbates the behavior of a shitty person and that he, in turn, is somehow the cause of said behavior. It's not true.

No your insinuation was that there is in some way an antagonism inherent in the wearing of revealing items of clothing by the opposite sex. An antagonism on a par with deliberately inconveniencing thousands of people who've paid money to see a show only to effectively be given the finger by the very person they paid to see.

He didn't antagonize anyone. He did nothing at all. Whatever his issues are that cause the delay I doubt very seriously that "deliberately inconveniencing" anyone is part of the plan. It IS inconvenient, and it is a the result of something he could change... but that doesn't mean it was the intended result.

His actions do not justify the reactions he received. Just like the girl in the analogy. Yet, to some people, they feel it is warranted. Those people are wrong. Make more sense now?

[Dazey]

He didn't antagonize anyone. He did nothing at all.

Seriously? Where the fuck is the facepaml smiley when you need it????

His actions do not justify the reactions he received.

Somebody threw a fucking paper cup at him for crying out loud! Cry me a fucking river Axl! They should be renamed.

"Guns n' Roses - The Most Dangerous Band In The World Except For When A Little Damp Cardboard Gets Airborne!"

Edited October 26, 2011 by Dazey Does Dallas

[Used To Love Me]

Yes, I absolutely tell him to refrain from throwing things. Being late isn't a free pass to assault anyone. They COULD leave early, if they chose to, or they COULD not go in the first place. we are all responsible for our OWN actions and not those of anyone else - which is my ENTIRE POINT.

How many people actually CHOOSE to though? Do you choose to leave when it gets to 2am and you've got a job to go to and kids to look after? Do you choose to leave when you have the choice of making it home that evening or having to pay $100+ for alternate travel just to make it to work the next day? The point is that even these actions are things that are forced on people against their will because Axl can't keep to a timetable! To be honest I'd expect this kind of attitude from a teenager with no responsibilities but GnR's fan base from back in the day no long fall into that category and as a 33 year old adult (according to your profile) I'm surprised you're not more critical.

Yes, those are choices. I went to see them in Tampa in 2006 and it was a late night. I got dropped off and picked up (I would have had to even if the show was right on time, as there is no bus service at 11pm, and none that goes to my house at all) I went to work bright and early the next day, worked for over 10 hours, and came home to my wife and kids. I CHOSE ALL THOSE THINGS.

[The Glow Inc.]

Let's say some night they show up very late.

The crowd doesn't throw anything, but just constantly boos. Fifteen thousand people booing constantly, during the songs, in between the songs, during the solos, during KOHD, during Patience.

Would that be ok or would it be unwarranted too ?

[Used To Love Me]

He didn't antagonize anyone. He did nothing at all.

Seriously? Where the fuck is the facepaml smiley when you need it????

His actions do not justify the reactions he received.

Somebody threw a fucking paper cup at him for crying out loud! Cry me a fucking river Axl! They should be renamed.

"Guns n' Roses - The Most Dangerous Band In The World Except For When A Little Damp Cardboard Gets Airborne!"

If I threw a paper cup at you, you'd be pissed. Even if I thought you deserved it.

Let's say some night they show up very late.

The crowd doesn't throw anything, but just constantly boos. Fifteen thousand people booing constantly, during the songs, in between the songs, during the solos, during KOHD, during Patience.

Would that be ok or would it be unwarranted too ?

Of course they could boo. It's not against any rules. Not sure why they would though...