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Van Halen 1st week sales vs Chines Democracy 1st week sales


GNFR2003

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For those arguing about complexity between Eddie and Ron, who cares? Since when does complexity equal good music? Look at The Beatles.

Uh, we all like Guns N' Roses, you know? They didn't create complex music but we still love it therefore we already know that complexity doesn't equal good music.

Eddie Van Halen's playing was complex back then, that's why he inspired many virtuosos. If he was just another B.B. King kind of guitarist he wouldn't be where he is now - one of the best and most inspiring guitarists ever.

EDIT: Seriously, NOT my fault if someone is arguing over something so fkn' obvious...

Edited by Bruno Poeys
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It should also be pointed out: CD was released in the lead-up to Christmas, while VH released their record in February. The week CD came out, weren't there like 3 albums that sold close to 900k? TSwift, Kanye, etc. It was the holiday rush, so everyone's sales were WAY up. 265k opening week including Black Friday isn't as impressive as 200k in February, if you ask me...

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Tattoo? one of the worst singles ive ever heard. Everything in it feels uninspired and even Eddies solo is recycled and predictable. But i guess most of you love these generic 80's hair metal-ish boring songs anyway so this would be better than CD for you, no doubt.

Yawn. Eddie's solos on ADKOT mop the floor with anything on Chinese Democracy.

While I think Eddie's solos are one of the few redeeming many awesome factors of ADKOT, Buckethead's TWAT solo dances in circles around all of them.

But the thing is, Bucket has the one highlight. Ed delivers riff after riff, solo after solo, song after song. And the one dude outshines all 10 or 20 dudes who played guitar on CD.

was wondering how long it would take for this to turninto GNR vs VH and Bumblefoot(the only one with a chance) vs Eddie. :unsure:

How long were you expecting when you were there to instigate it in the beginning?

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It should also be pointed out: CD was released in the lead-up to Christmas, while VH released their record in February. The week CD came out, weren't there like 3 albums that sold close to 900k? TSwift, Kanye, etc. It was the holiday rush, so everyone's sales were WAY up. 265k opening week including Black Friday isn't as impressive as 200k in February, if you ask me...

Pretty good point, but either way, I don't think it really matters.

Why people are arguing about this in the first place is beyond me. What the better album is comes down to personal preference, and whichever one sold/sells better does not automatically mean it's better music.

Like I said in my last post, complexity doesn't necessarily mean good music. Neither do sales. Lots of garbage out there today sells lots but that doesn't make it good.

Chinese is a great album. A Different Kind of Truth is a great album. Two different bands, two different sounds.

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How long were you expecting when you were there to instigate it in the beginning?

ha.

DO NOT kid yourself, this thread was always gonna turn out this way.

Kanye and Swift were the big names in those days

then they turned on each other at the VMAs and the following months. But they pretty much are still big names to this day, i.e. whoever releases an album the same week as them still has to settle for #2 or below

Edited by moreblack
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Bruno......some of the best posts in this topic.

And it is sort of funny, all the fake similar names. Juvenile.....but still funny. People take these forums way too seriously.

haha, some posts are simply laughable. How can someone argue over something so obvious is beyond comprehension. "He did it first, therefore it has to be better". I mean, really? Eddie himself would never top anything with his great tapping because someone else created the technique and not him?

Kanye and Swift were the big names in those days

They sold 300k-ish, not 900k like someone else said.

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Look, whether you enjoy Chinese Democracy more or Another Kind of Truth more, it doesnt fucking matter. Its YOUR opinion whether one album is better than the other. Doesnt make it a fact.

Sitting here fucking arguing over this is ridiculous. Van Halen and Guns arent even close in style.

You guys need to get over yourselves. Seriously, its crazy some of the shit that is said on this forum.

And you people call yourselves fans.

Who Is arguing? Everyone Is giving there opinion, Isn't that what you do In a forum? Are we less of a fan of Guns N Roses because we like other bands, or think that EVH Is a better guitar player then bumblefoot?

It's ridiculous. We're all Axl fans, but I don't see why we have to pretend that we're fans of each and every person he has brought into New GNR over the years.

It has nothing to do with being an Axl fan or a GNR fan. Ron is better than EVH. He is a much better musician. However EVH is a legend and an icon plus an innovater of guitar. But Ron is still a much better musician.

Exactly. Being the first to mainstream it doesn't make EVH a better musician. Ron is a much better musician. Nothing to do with band preferences, I think a lot of guitarists are better than Eddie, Randy Rhodes, Joe Satriani, Streve Vai, John Petrucci, Yngwie, Buckethead, they all kick Eddies ass. Being the first doesn't make you the best. Is T-Bone Walker better than B.B. King? No.

No but being first makes you a fucken pioneer and not an imitator. Stop trying to minimize Eddies efforts. I think Bucket and Bumble SMOKE the hell out of him as guitarists, but Eddie was an innovator and the rest copied what he did. That alone makes him a standout. And I personally dislike most of Van Halens music but I give credit where credit is due. This is not even about Eddie popularizing the two-handed tapping technique, it's mainly about Eruption. Back then(1977), NOTHING sounded like that and it paved the way for fast rock n' roll shred which became a strong adjunct for metal, thrash metal, alternative, rock etc.

Edited by Young_Gun
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No but being first makes you a fucken pioneer and not an imitator. Stop trying to minimize Eddies efforts. I think Bucket and Bumble SMOKE the hell out of him as guitarists, but Eddie was an innovator and the rest copied what he did. That alone makes him a standout. And I personally dislike most of Van Halens music but I give credit where credit is due.

That's not allowed here. Whoever is playing with Axl that year is automatically the greatest musician of all time.

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Another thing CD and Truth have in common. Generic lead singles. Yes we all known Chinese Democracy is a good song but it is the most generic sounding song on the album.

At least Bumblefoot's rhythm and Buckethead's leads aren't generic like the guitar work on Tattoo. Buckethead does some really great mix of whammy pedal and the killswitch while EVH doesn't go anywhere. Also Bumblefoot's fretless riffs are totally awesome and they are not your standart rock riffs.

Tattoo? one of the worst singles ive ever heard. Everything in it feels uninspired and even Eddies solo is recycled and predictable. But i guess most of you love these generic 80's hair metal-ish boring songs anyway so this would be better than CD for you, no doubt.

Yawn. Eddie's solos on ADKOT mop the floor with anything on Chinese Democracy.

Uh, not the ones I've heard. Care to show me some over the top guitar playing from EVH? Remember - it's not the 80's anymore and a few years ago he barely could play his own song Eruption, but I guess he's improved a lot since then.

What does Bumblefoot do better, or play better then Eddie?

You have to be fucking insane to even ask that. Anybody with a little knowledge could tell you that his playing is countless, light years more complex than whatever Eddie came up with. I'm not saying that anybody is better than anybody here because Ron himself would not say that, but dude... that's some ridiculous question. Think about it before you ask something like this.

Also, the thing about "who influenced who" is bullshit and shows a lack of argument - I know that's common around here. Jimi Hendrix was influenced by B.B. King but he came up with much more and diverse ideas hence why he's the guitarist that influenced the most. If I remember correctly who showed him the wah wah pedal was Zappa, but who changed the way the world viewed/played it? Football was created in England but Pele changed the football history. He didn't created shit but changed how the world played it.

Again: the "he was influenced by him, that's why he's not as good" argument means shit. Better yet, means lack of knowledge and argument.

I've listened to Van Halen many times, I prefer Normal.

You obviously have a hearing disability. Either that or just an IQ of 2.

You obviously should not act like an asshole and respect everybody's opinion. Who are you to say what he should or shouldnt like? I like Normal much better than the last Van Halen album, so what? If you are into generic hard rock that's fine, but dont tell others what they must like or not.

Hopefully Guns will somewhow find themselves back with Slash, Izzy, etc.

It'd be alot more promising than Chinese Shit Part 2.

Yes, that's right! Let's hear more generic rock songs and forget about evolution. Yea, that's it! What if Clapton never played an electric guitar? What if Hendrix never came up with new and inventive guitar playing - what if he was cool with the equipment and techniques that were around at the time? What if Led Zeppelin never tried to compose more complex songs? The music world would be as boring as your musical taste. I'm glad that we have people that think forward and not backwards. In other words I'm happy that people like Axl and Ron aren't trying to come up with AFD pt 2.

Obviously you aren't the one with that little bit of knowledge then, are you? Don't down play my question, or try to Insult me, with that Is a ridiculous question, and I should think about It, before I ask something like that, bullshit. I never said that Bumblefoot being Influenced by EVH was relevant to the argument, but the fact remains that he was, It Is also a fact that all most every major music or magazine publication dealing In the music Industry ranks EVH In the top ten guitarists of all time, with no mention of Bumblefoot. It's all an opinion, and yours Is that Bumblefoot Is better then EVH and mine Is the opposite. So fuckin deal with It.

Nobody mentioned magazines or music industry publications. You asked "What does Bumblefoot do better, or play better then Eddie?" and that was my reply. I dont even know what the fuck those magazines have to do with my point. I never said who's better, and guess what? You can't read and understand posts as well. In fact I even said that I wont say "who's better than who", but ignoring my comment did fit your fantasy world, so be it. All I wanted to say is that comparing them on a technical aspect is insane, so I don't care about what your music magazines have to say about them.

My point was and Is, the majority, Including anything and anybody related to the music Industry, consider EVH a top 10 guitarist of all time, bumblefoot Isn't even a thought. If bumblefoot Is In a class with EVH, why doesn't he get the recognition he rightfully deserves? You are contradicting yourself with your, "I won't say who Is better then who" and then saying "comparing them on a technical aspect Is Insane." Like who you like, that's what the boards are for, but you can stop trying to get your points across by throwing little Insults around, like calling people fucking Insane, assholes and basically trying to belittle there posts with remarks like this "You have to be fucking insane to even ask that. Anybody with a little knowledge could tell you that his playing is countless, light years more complex than whatever Eddie came up with. I'm not saying that anybody is better than anybody here because Ron himself would not say that, but dude... that's some ridiculous question. Think about it before you ask something like this."

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Look, whether you enjoy Chinese Democracy more or Another Kind of Truth more, it doesnt fucking matter. Its YOUR opinion whether one album is better than the other. Doesnt make it a fact.

Sitting here fucking arguing over this is ridiculous. Van Halen and Guns arent even close in style.

You guys need to get over yourselves. Seriously, its crazy some of the shit that is said on this forum.

And you people call yourselves fans.

Who Is arguing? Everyone Is giving there opinion, Isn't that what you do In a forum? Are we less of a fan of Guns N Roses because we like other bands, or think that EVH Is a better guitar player then bumblefoot?

It's ridiculous. We're all Axl fans, but I don't see why we have to pretend that we're fans of each and every person he has brought into New GNR over the years.

It has nothing to do with being an Axl fan or a GNR fan. Ron is better than EVH. He is a much better musician. However EVH is a legend and an icon plus an innovater of guitar. But Ron is still a much better musician.

Exactly. Being the first to mainstream it doesn't make EVH a better musician. Ron is a much better musician. Nothing to do with band preferences, I think a lot of guitarists are better than Eddie, Randy Rhodes, Joe Satriani, Streve Vai, John Petrucci, Yngwie, Buckethead, they all kick Eddies ass. Being the first doesn't make you the best. Is T-Bone Walker better than B.B. King? No.

No but being first makes you a fucken pioneer and not an imitator. Stop trying to minimize Eddies efforts. I think Bucket and Bumble SMOKE the hell out of him as guitarists, but Eddie was an innovator and the rest copied what he did. That alone makes him a standout. And I personally dislike most of Van Halens music but I give credit where credit is due.

If that was the case Eddie would simply be a Hendrix imitator, a Hendrix copy. You are right to an extent - but nobody copied him. They used EVH's playing and songs as an inspiration, that's a different story. They have their own style, their own playing, their own sound. But you can hear EVH's influence in their playing, no doubt. Just like you can hear Paul Gilbert's influence in Bucket's playing, Hendrix's in Ron's playing, etc.

EDIT: ironmt, you realize that technique isnt the way to define who's a better guitarist, right? There's much more to it than who plays a song more accurately. Get over it already.

Edited by Bruno Poeys
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No but being first makes you a fucken pioneer and not an imitator. Stop trying to minimize Eddies efforts. I think Bucket and Bumble SMOKE the hell out of him as guitarists, but Eddie was an innovator and the rest copied what he did. That alone makes him a standout. And I personally dislike most of Van Halens music but I give credit where credit is due.

That's not allowed here. Whoever is playing with Axl that year is automatically the greatest musician of all time.

I think Chinese Democracy is one of the best albums I have ever heard and I love Buckethead, but to downplay Eddie Van Halens efforts and innovations by saying things like "being the first doesn't make you the best" is downright fatuous. I think most of Van Halens music is not so great, but as a guitar player myself, I can see Eddies influences in ALOT of music and even in mere technique and licks. He changed things for rock guitar and those changes are still very evident today.

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Look, whether you enjoy Chinese Democracy more or Another Kind of Truth more, it doesnt fucking matter. Its YOUR opinion whether one album is better than the other. Doesnt make it a fact.

Sitting here fucking arguing over this is ridiculous. Van Halen and Guns arent even close in style.

You guys need to get over yourselves. Seriously, its crazy some of the shit that is said on this forum.

And you people call yourselves fans.

Who Is arguing? Everyone Is giving there opinion, Isn't that what you do In a forum? Are we less of a fan of Guns N Roses because we like other bands, or think that EVH Is a better guitar player then bumblefoot?

It's ridiculous. We're all Axl fans, but I don't see why we have to pretend that we're fans of each and every person he has brought into New GNR over the years.

It has nothing to do with being an Axl fan or a GNR fan. Ron is better than EVH. He is a much better musician. However EVH is a legend and an icon plus an innovater of guitar. But Ron is still a much better musician.

Exactly. Being the first to mainstream it doesn't make EVH a better musician. Ron is a much better musician. Nothing to do with band preferences, I think a lot of guitarists are better than Eddie, Randy Rhodes, Joe Satriani, Streve Vai, John Petrucci, Yngwie, Buckethead, they all kick Eddies ass. Being the first doesn't make you the best. Is T-Bone Walker better than B.B. King? No.

No but being first makes you a fucken pioneer and not an imitator. Stop trying to minimize Eddies efforts. I think Bucket and Bumble SMOKE the hell out of him as guitarists, but Eddie was an innovator and the rest copied what he did. That alone makes him a standout. And I personally dislike most of Van Halens music but I give credit where credit is due.

If that was the case Eddie would simply be a Hendrix imitator, a Hendrix copy. You are right to an extent - but nobody copied him. They used EVH's playing and songs as an inspiration, that's a different story. They have their own style, their own playing, their own sound. But you can hear EVH's influence in their playing, no doubt. Just like you can hear Paul Gilbert's influence in Bucket's playing, Hendrix's in Ron's playing, etc.

You must have replied just before I edited my original post. I changed it to be more specific and made mention that Eruption changed the way guitar was played across multiple genres. It's not about Eddie inventing two-handed tapping(as far as I know, he only made it popular), but before Eruption in 1977, NO ONE played like that. He changed the way solos were played and that became an archetype which is still VERY evident today, 4 decades later. It's not something you can just 'hear' in someone elses playing like "oh that's a Hendrix lick". The actual structure, pacing and techniques used became it's own style. It became the new 12-bar blues for soloing.

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Ron has been getting a lot of recognition since he started playing in GN'R. He had a following before GN'R especially among other musicians but GN'R brought him in the spotlight and because of being so cool and egoless on top of that talent he is easily one of the most respected members in current lineup.

Eddie did change a lot with Eruption, but he wasn't the first to do it. You honestly don't think guitarists never thought of using both hands on the fret? They probably did it just to fuck around.

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Ron has been getting a lot of recognition since he started playing in GN'R. He had a following before GN'R especially among other musicians but GN'R brought him in the spotlight and because of being so cool and egoless on top of that talent he is easily one of the most respected members in current lineup.

Eddie did change a lot with Eruption, but he wasn't the first to do it. You honestly don't think guitarists never thought of using both hands on the fret? They probably did it just to fuck around.

Champ, I specifically said it wasn't about Eddie popularizing two handed tapping, he was not the first to invent it as far as I know. But the actual Eruption solo, solos just were not played with that speed, intensity and pacing back in 1977. Two handed tapping or not, it does not matter. If he used pull-ons and slides instead of tapping, it would still not diminish the style and speed of that solo that opened the door for heavy metal/thrash metal style solos and shredders like Yngwie, Vai etc.

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The big difference is that the people who made the Van Halen album are an actual band and the people who made the GNR album are a combination of a band that never really got going, studio musicians and newer touring members who may or may not make an album together in the future.

True, it's very Important that the current band record an album together. That way Bumblefoot can floor Eddie.

In Bumblefoots case yes, he was influenced by Eddie, but Bumblefoot plays better. Eddie may have been the one who popularized the two hand tapping but he certainly wasn't the first. Jazz musicians do it, classical guitarists. If Eddie didn't do it first someone else would have.

You're right, Stanley Jordan, a Vigier endorsee, did use this tech before EVH, but, if I'm not mistaken, the tapping is even older than that.

On a side note, Jordan (Buckethead's song, dedicated to Michael Jordan, not Stanley Jordan) features an extensive use of tapping too.

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the whole who is the better guitar player debate is one that it really doesnt matter its all subjective you could put a top 100 guitarist lists out their and people would reaarange that top 100 a million different ways.

bumblefoot and EVH are amazing players that play totally different styles that play different kinds of music.

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Look, whether you enjoy Chinese Democracy more or Another Kind of Truth more, it doesnt fucking matter. Its YOUR opinion whether one album is better than the other. Doesnt make it a fact.

Sitting here fucking arguing over this is ridiculous. Van Halen and Guns arent even close in style.

You guys need to get over yourselves. Seriously, its crazy some of the shit that is said on this forum.

And you people call yourselves fans.

Who Is arguing? Everyone Is giving there opinion, Isn't that what you do In a forum? Are we less of a fan of Guns N Roses because we like other bands, or think that EVH Is a better guitar player then bumblefoot?

It's ridiculous. We're all Axl fans, but I don't see why we have to pretend that we're fans of each and every person he has brought into New GNR over the years.

It has nothing to do with being an Axl fan or a GNR fan. Ron is better than EVH. He is a much better musician. However EVH is a legend and an icon plus an innovater of guitar. But Ron is still a much better musician.

Exactly. Being the first to mainstream it doesn't make EVH a better musician. Ron is a much better musician. Nothing to do with band preferences, I think a lot of guitarists are better than Eddie, Randy Rhodes, Joe Satriani, Streve Vai, John Petrucci, Yngwie, Buckethead, they all kick Eddies ass. Being the first doesn't make you the best. Is T-Bone Walker better than B.B. King? No.

No but being first makes you a fucken pioneer and not an imitator. Stop trying to minimize Eddies efforts. I think Bucket and Bumble SMOKE the hell out of him as guitarists, but Eddie was an innovator and the rest copied what he did. That alone makes him a standout. And I personally dislike most of Van Halens music but I give credit where credit is due.

If that was the case Eddie would simply be a Hendrix imitator, a Hendrix copy. You are right to an extent - but nobody copied him. They used EVH's playing and songs as an inspiration, that's a different story. They have their own style, their own playing, their own sound. But you can hear EVH's influence in their playing, no doubt. Just like you can hear Paul Gilbert's influence in Bucket's playing, Hendrix's in Ron's playing, etc.

You must have replied just before I edited my original post. I changed it to be more specific and made mention that Eruption changed the way guitar was played across multiple genres. It's not about Eddie inventing two-handed tapping(as far as I know, he only made it popular), but before Eruption in 1977, NO ONE played like that. He changed the way solos were played and that became an archetype which is still VERY evident today, 4 decades later. It's not something you can just 'hear' in someone elses playing like "oh that's a Hendrix lick". The actual structure, pacing and techniques used became it's own style. It became the new 12-bar blues for soloing.

Yes, I replied before you made it more specift. He was important, yes, but those techniques were around already but he did shape them in a way that made guitarists play like him, follow him. I mean, that virtuoso kind of guitar playing was actually created by Hendrix mostly imo. If you hear that famous rendition of the US national anthem you'll hear who Eddie followed. The whammy bar use, the slides, effects, etc. It's not like EVH totally created that kind of playing but rather did shape it. I could be wrong, but I know that Hendrix is who you should praise mostly, not EVH.

I mean, listen to this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyGGG1I-rf8

That's where most of the guitar playing we've heard came from imo

And to that guy that loves list, take this one not based on popularity but rather technical skill, creativity, versatility, etc...

http://www.bumblefoot.com/press/200507-digitaldreamdoor/200507-digitaldreamdoor.htm

Edited by Bruno Poeys
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the whole who is the better guitar player debate is one that it really doesnt matter its all subjective you could put a top 100 guitarist lists out their and people would reaarange that top 100 a million different ways.

bumblefoot and EVH are amazing players that play totally different styles that play different kinds of music.

Not necessarily. It depends on what you define as "better." If you define it as more skilled, then it's not subjective at all. Objectively, for instance, Neil Peart is a better drummer than Lars Ulrich. :P

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