Mr. Dude Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Its just the line up. If Snakepit and Contraband songs were mixed with TIL, SOD, Catcher, Twat with Mike Clink and og line up everyone would be happy. UYI was a license to print money.My thoughts exactly. Emotional attachment of youth is longstanding. Subtle yet pervasive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 The basic tracks for Use Your Illusion were recorded in thirty days. That album still fundamentally consists of, the same two guitarists, a bassist, and a drummer. The difference with Chinese Democracy, an album which took nearly ten years to make and consists of about five guitarists, cannot be overstated. Also, you are acting like the multitude of instrumentalists on Democracy was premeditated. The real reason Axl has so many tracks is because of the line-up changes he was forced to make and his desire to accommodate all players, the outgoing and incoming: we would not possess Bumblefoot and Frank's multi-tracks if Axl had retained the services of the 2002 line-up - we would not have even heard of Bumblefoot if everything had gone to plan. The album is a complete mess because, its very creation was a complete mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 You caught me. I was never a fan to begin with. I've always hated GNR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicrawker Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Its just the line up. If Snakepit and Contraband songs were mixed with TIL, SOD, Catcher, Twat with Mike Clink and og line up everyone would be happy. UYI was a license to print money.My thoughts exactly. Emotional attachment of youth is longstanding. Subtle yet pervasive. you can polish a turd but it will still be turd mate no matter how you continue to spin how the production is what makes ChiDem great....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 The basic tracks for Use Your Illusion were recorded in thirty days. That album still fundamentally consists of, the same two guitarists, a bassist, and a drummer. The difference with Chinese Democracy, an album which took nearly ten years to make and consists of about five guitarists, cannot be overstated. Also, you are acting like the multitude of instrumentalists on Democracy was premeditated. The real reason Axl has so many tracks is because of the line-up changes he was forced to make and his desire to accommodate all players, the outgoing and incoming: we would not possess Bumblefoot and Frank's multi-tracks if Axl had retained the services of the 2002 line-up - we would not have even heard of Bumblefoot if everything had gone to plan. The album is a complete mess because, its very creation was a complete mess.songs tend to exist before they become a mess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Its just the line up. If Snakepit and Contraband songs were mixed with TIL, SOD, Catcher, Twat with Mike Clink and og line up everyone would be happy. UYI was a license to print money.My thoughts exactly. Emotional attachment of youth is longstanding. Subtle yet pervasive. you can polish a turd but it will still be turd mate no matter how you continue to spin how the production is what makes ChiDem great.......Its personal taste really. You just like what you like, its not some sort nazi rally. Its just music. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 The basic tracks for Use Your Illusion were recorded in thirty days. That album still fundamentally consists of, the same two guitarists, a bassist, and a drummer. The difference with Chinese Democracy, an album which took nearly ten years to make and consists of about five guitarists, cannot be overstated. Also, you are acting like the multitude of instrumentalists on Democracy was premeditated. The real reason Axl has so many tracks is because of the line-up changes he was forced to make and his desire to accommodate all players, the outgoing and incoming: we would not possess Bumblefoot and Frank's multi-tracks if Axl had retained the services of the 2002 line-up - we would not have even heard of Bumblefoot if everything had gone to plan. The album is a complete mess because, its very creation was a complete mess.songs tend to exist before they become a mess?But if their production is a mess, the essence of the song becomes lost.Another argument I will state is, the demos. Most people prefer the leaked demos of songs like IRS and TWAT to the released album versions. The demos are certainly rawer, contain less Pitman inspired 'beeps and farts' and tedious introductions, and contain no more than three guitarists maximum. Most people like them over the album versions: that is proof if any is needed that Chinese Democrac suffers through over-production as we are discussing the same songs here. I think a few people prefer live versions also - I certainly prefer Rio 3's Madagascar.The album is a complete mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I just think Axl went all out on each song. Each song was bought fancy gifts and showered in chicks. I agree but the songs remain. They could rerecord them or you a live version etc. Songs are very strong. Personally I like all the treatments. I agree the changes between tracks is vast from IRS to Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Some of the material is very poor though. George Martin could not rescue Shackler's Revenge and Scraped. These two songs are really, sub-standard Korn b-sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaida Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 no is the answer.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicrawker Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Its just the line up. If Snakepit and Contraband songs were mixed with TIL, SOD, Catcher, Twat with Mike Clink and og line up everyone would be happy. UYI was a license to print money.My thoughts exactly. Emotional attachment of youth is longstanding. Subtle yet pervasive. you can polish a turd but it will still be turd mate no matter how you continue to spin how the production is what makes ChiDem great.......Its personal taste really. You just like what you like, its not some sort nazi rally. Its just music.I have no issue with you or Dude worshipping ChiDem as music is a matter of taste but yours and his contention that those of us who don't worship it are somehow seem incapable to understand its brilliance and someday we will see the light is insulting........so please don't get insulted when I call bullshit when you two keep on repeating this over an over................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) Except we are not talking about those other albums we are talking about Chinese Democracy and fans rarely complain about poor production on UYI like they do ChiDem.....Even some of the ChiDem fans here are objective enough to admit that the production is a mess and is not what they like about the album......To deny people didn't have a problem with production on UYI is delusional. I don't think you mean that, you mean it sold a ton anyway. But there was some criticism of UYI even from within the band/Niven about the Elton Rose songs from fans saying it's not as good as AFD, Axl has lost it etc.I agree some people don't like the production of CD. I agree from track to track it changes and that is indulgent/messy. For the most part it holds together and the scope of material and treatment per track is awesome. You can see where the problem comes from on UYI, there's Axl's songs which he might wanted more bombastic and pomp and then there's Izzy's and Slash's they wanted more rawer. They had to leave the band to do what they wanted.My solution would have been to just do each guys songs like they wanted and throw them on an album, with only a producer suggesting they do something to pull the record together. I think if Slither and Fall to Pieces and Time Gone By and Shuffle it All with TIL and Catcher with the same productions fans might say TIL is OTT but hey Slither and Time Gone By are awesome. That's how some viewed UYI. Like eeeww what is Nov Rain? but hey look at Perfect Crime, Double Talkin Jive. Edited January 11, 2014 by wasted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) Its just the line up. If Snakepit and Contraband songs were mixed with TIL, SOD, Catcher, Twat with Mike Clink and og line up everyone would be happy. UYI was a license to print money.My thoughts exactly. Emotional attachment of youth is longstanding. Subtle yet pervasive. you can polish a turd but it will still be turd mate no matter how you continue to spin how the production is what makes ChiDem great.......Its personal taste really. You just like what you like, its not some sort nazi rally. Its just music.I have no issue with you or Dude worshipping ChiDem as music is a matter of taste but yours and his contention that those of us who don't worship it are somehow seem incapable to understand its brilliance and someday we will see the light is insulting........so please don't get insulted when I call bullshit when you two keep on repeating this over an over................It's not bullshit though, it's just a different opinion, so don't expect me to stop giving it. I just like to like things I guess. I see others have different opinions and can see why people don't like it, it's pretty understandable, it's not the same thing and in some ways almost the opposite of what GNR got big on. I listened to UNKLE albums, I see some similarities in scope and how disjointed/epic it can feel. Whether GNR should be doing that I don't know. I don't think CD is that bloated there's no 10 minute tracks which kind of brought on that criticism on UYI. Over produced? Not per track in my opinion but given the amount of different productions on the album, yes by definition it's very OTT. I enjoy that Axl went there. I think it works, it's unique, not to everyone's tastes obviously…but I think it's what the expectations of the GNR fan base are/were that is more significant. How do you justify alienating obviously loyal GNR fans? When you could actually just remake UYI and keep them happy. Edited January 11, 2014 by wasted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicrawker Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Except we are not talking about those other albums we are talking about Chinese Democracy and fans rarely complain about poor production on UYI like they do ChiDem.....Even some of the ChiDem fans here are objective enough to admit that the production is a mess and is not what they like about the album......To deny people didn't have a problem with production on UYI is delusional. I don't think you mean that, you mean it sold a ton anyway. But there was some criticism of UYI even from within the band/Niven about the Elton Rose songs from fans saying it's not as good as AFD, Axl has lost it etc.I agree some people don't like the production of CD. I agree from track to track it changes and that is indulgent/messy. For the most part it holds together and the scope of material and treatment per track is awesome. You can see where the problem comes from on UYI, there's Axl's songs which he might wanted more bombastic and pomp and then there's Izzy's and Slash's they wanted more rawer. They had to leave the band to do what they wanted.My solution would have been to just do each guys songs like they wanted and throw them on an album, with only a producer suggesting they do something to pull the record together. I think if Slither and Fall to Pieces and Time Gone By and Shuffle it All with TIL and Catcher with the same productions fans might say TIL is OTT but hey Slither and Time Gone By are awesome. That's how some viewed UYI. Like eeeww what is Nov Rain? but hey look at Perfect Crime, Double Talkin Jive. No actually people bitch about the production of UYI much much less than they do about ChiDem....Most of the complaints I read on this forum about UYI are related to the fact that there is too much filler material and the band would have been better off putting out one album of the best songs and not much about the production value.....in fact I have read posters here who like ChiDem complain about the production and I happen to disagree with your assessment of ChiDem, as do others on this forum, as I think it mediocre at best.Personally I think the original leaks of ChiDem are better than the released album and would love to hear the raw versions of UYI before Axl got his hands on them but the production is nowhere near as bad as ChiDem and trying to claim that is part of that albums brilliance is nothing but a defensive mechanism by its fans.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicrawker Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Its just the line up. If Snakepit and Contraband songs were mixed with TIL, SOD, Catcher, Twat with Mike Clink and og line up everyone would be happy. UYI was a license to print money.My thoughts exactly. Emotional attachment of youth is longstanding. Subtle yet pervasive. you can polish a turd but it will still be turd mate no matter how you continue to spin how the production is what makes ChiDem great.......Its personal taste really. You just like what you like, its not some sort nazi rally. Its just music.I have no issue with you or Dude worshipping ChiDem as music is a matter of taste but yours and his contention that those of us who don't worship it are somehow seem incapable to understand its brilliance and someday we will see the light is insulting........so please don't get insulted when I call bullshit when you two keep on repeating this over an over................It's not bullshit though, it's just a different opinion, so don't expect me to stop giving it. I just like to like things I guess. I see others have different opinions and can see why people don't like it, it's pretty understandable, it's not the same thing and in some ways almost the opposite of what GNR got big on. I listened to UNKLE albums, I see some similarities in scope and how disjointed/epic it can feel. Whether GNR should be doing that I don't know. I don't think CD is that bloated there's no 10 minute tracks which kind of brought on that criticism on UYI. Over produced? Not per track in my opinion but given the amount of different productions on the album, yes by definition it's very OTT. I enjoy that Axl went there. I think it works, it's unique, not to everyone's tastes obviously…but I think it's what the expectations of the GNR fan base are/were that is more significant. How do you justify alienating obviously loyal GNR fans? When you could actually just remake UYI and keep them happy. No worry mate you keep pushing the same spin and I will continue to call bullshit.....................And based on the posts I read here and other opinions on the internet your opinion is in the minority related to the production mate........and bloated production has nothing to do with 10 minute songs but rather the songs being too busy with Axl using too much layering and the editing being choppy...............the Wall of Sound might have worked for Phil Spector but on ChiDem it is a fail in mine and other fans opinions...........too each his own.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Except we are not talking about those other albums we are talking about Chinese Democracy and fans rarely complain about poor production on UYI like they do ChiDem.....Even some of the ChiDem fans here are objective enough to admit that the production is a mess and is not what they like about the album......To deny people didn't have a problem with production on UYI is delusional. I don't think you mean that, you mean it sold a ton anyway. But there was some criticism of UYI even from within the band/Niven about the Elton Rose songs from fans saying it's not as good as AFD, Axl has lost it etc.I agree some people don't like the production of CD. I agree from track to track it changes and that is indulgent/messy. For the most part it holds together and the scope of material and treatment per track is awesome. You can see where the problem comes from on UYI, there's Axl's songs which he might wanted more bombastic and pomp and then there's Izzy's and Slash's they wanted more rawer. They had to leave the band to do what they wanted.My solution would have been to just do each guys songs like they wanted and throw them on an album, with only a producer suggesting they do something to pull the record together. I think if Slither and Fall to Pieces and Time Gone By and Shuffle it All with TIL and Catcher with the same productions fans might say TIL is OTT but hey Slither and Time Gone By are awesome. That's how some viewed UYI. Like eeeww what is Nov Rain? but hey look at Perfect Crime, Double Talkin Jive. No actually people bitch about the production of UYI much much less than they do about ChiDem....Most of the complaints I read on this forum about UYI are related to the fact that there is too much filler material and the band would have been better off putting out one album of the best songs and not much about the production value.....in fact I have read posters here who like ChiDem complain about the production and I happen to disagree with your assessment of ChiDem, as do others on this forum, as I think it mediocre at best.Personally I think the original leaks of ChiDem are better than the released album and would love to hear the raw versions of UYI before Axl got his hands on them but the production is nowhere near as bad as ChiDem and trying to claim that is part of that albums brilliance is nothing but a defensive mechanism by its fans..............Well, I happen to disagree with your assessment of my assessment. I don't completely disagree with your assessment, especially as a GNR, it's pushing it. but I think that is partly what Axl always does, he's always causing a stir. Here we are discussing CD. If it was a remake of UYI we'd just say it's fine, nothing really to talk about. Cd gets a reaction. People are indifferent enough about it to make a point of it. I'm totally indifferent to this record!!!It's not defensive because I do like that about it, I see why others don't, but there other records like it with the scope and percussive/synth focus.I'm not only talking about the forum, I talking about reviews at the time. I think it's true there's less criticism of UYI production on this forum. I think some think UYI is a bit flat. I don't think the production on CD is all that bad in comparison to other 90s albums with similar production like Angel Dust/Nevermind/Achtung Baby. But it has another dimension of Axl's OTT ness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) Its just the line up. If Snakepit and Contraband songs were mixed with TIL, SOD, Catcher, Twat with Mike Clink and og line up everyone would be happy. UYI was a license to print money.My thoughts exactly. Emotional attachment of youth is longstanding. Subtle yet pervasive. you can polish a turd but it will still be turd mate no matter how you continue to spin how the production is what makes ChiDem great.......Its personal taste really. You just like what you like, its not some sort nazi rally. Its just music.I have no issue with you or Dude worshipping ChiDem as music is a matter of taste but yours and his contention that those of us who don't worship it are somehow seem incapable to understand its brilliance and someday we will see the light is insulting........so please don't get insulted when I call bullshit when you two keep on repeating this over an over................It's not bullshit though, it's just a different opinion, so don't expect me to stop giving it. I just like to like things I guess. I see others have different opinions and can see why people don't like it, it's pretty understandable, it's not the same thing and in some ways almost the opposite of what GNR got big on. I listened to UNKLE albums, I see some similarities in scope and how disjointed/epic it can feel. Whether GNR should be doing that I don't know. I don't think CD is that bloated there's no 10 minute tracks which kind of brought on that criticism on UYI. Over produced? Not per track in my opinion but given the amount of different productions on the album, yes by definition it's very OTT. I enjoy that Axl went there. I think it works, it's unique, not to everyone's tastes obviously…but I think it's what the expectations of the GNR fan base are/were that is more significant. How do you justify alienating obviously loyal GNR fans? When you could actually just remake UYI and keep them happy. No worry mate you keep pushing the same spin and I will continue to call bullshit.....................And based on the posts I read here and other opinions on the internet your opinion is in the minority related to the production mate........and bloated production has nothing to do with 10 minute songs but rather the songs being too busy with Axl using too much layering and the editing being choppy...............the Wall of Sound might have worked for Phil Spector but on ChiDem it is a fail in mine and other fans opinions...........too each his own....I call that over-production, too many layers. Either way, I don't think that is true. I listen to CD and hear an extra layer, maybe, at best. But again, context, compared to AFD yes, compared other bands like Faith No More, UNKLE not really. I think it works really well on IRS to convey uncontrollable rage, on Catcher to get that mental confusion psychedelic feel.I guess if I'm the minority I shouldn't just to give my opinion. Don't you want to have at least some variety? Edited January 11, 2014 by wasted 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Dude Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Hey, I love CD, but I love all the GNR records right down to Spaghetti Incident. I talk about and think about CD more probably because its more recent. I love AFD and UYI too though- sounds of my youth (to a degree). CD's the sound of adulthood. I haven't enjoyed a record the way I have CD since I was young. I think the album's even about the loss of youth and innocence, seeing those around you betray the ideals of their youth while still fighting to hold onto yours. Each record has its own vibe. CD is every bit as honest as AFD. Out of the earlier records, I find myself going back to UYI far more than AFD at this point though. UYI is more aware, more adult. There's an endearing level of naivety and recklessness to AFD that I still appreciate at a basic level, but as I get older it becomes harder to sincerely identify with- without feeling a bit cheesy. You're only young once- to act otherwise is dishonest, maybe delusional. I love AFD, but after you've heard it so much and once you get older those songs become like nursery rhymes. They're comforting in their familiarity, but they're not as threatening and aggressive as they were when I listened to them in my teens. CD is growth. CD is evolution. CD is coming to grips with the gigantic hangover leftover from youth called adulthood, but also not selling out the ideals of your youth even though everyone else did. 666 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GivenToFly Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Of course you can improve an album by removing the weaker song on it. But what are the weaker songs? It's difficult to find agreement on those. Look at If The World: some are saying it's the worst song in GNR history while other say it should have been the first single.Personally I'd like to hear as much music as possible, not drop songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicrawker Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Except we are not talking about those other albums we are talking about Chinese Democracy and fans rarely complain about poor production on UYI like they do ChiDem.....Even some of the ChiDem fans here are objective enough to admit that the production is a mess and is not what they like about the album......To deny people didn't have a problem with production on UYI is delusional. I don't think you mean that, you mean it sold a ton anyway. But there was some criticism of UYI even from within the band/Niven about the Elton Rose songs from fans saying it's not as good as AFD, Axl has lost it etc.I agree some people don't like the production of CD. I agree from track to track it changes and that is indulgent/messy. For the most part it holds together and the scope of material and treatment per track is awesome. You can see where the problem comes from on UYI, there's Axl's songs which he might wanted more bombastic and pomp and then there's Izzy's and Slash's they wanted more rawer. They had to leave the band to do what they wanted.My solution would have been to just do each guys songs like they wanted and throw them on an album, with only a producer suggesting they do something to pull the record together. I think if Slither and Fall to Pieces and Time Gone By and Shuffle it All with TIL and Catcher with the same productions fans might say TIL is OTT but hey Slither and Time Gone By are awesome. That's how some viewed UYI. Like eeeww what is Nov Rain? but hey look at Perfect Crime, Double Talkin Jive. No actually people bitch about the production of UYI much much less than they do about ChiDem....Most of the complaints I read on this forum about UYI are related to the fact that there is too much filler material and the band would have been better off putting out one album of the best songs and not much about the production value.....in fact I have read posters here who like ChiDem complain about the production and I happen to disagree with your assessment of ChiDem, as do others on this forum, as I think it mediocre at best.Personally I think the original leaks of ChiDem are better than the released album and would love to hear the raw versions of UYI before Axl got his hands on them but the production is nowhere near as bad as ChiDem and trying to claim that is part of that albums brilliance is nothing but a defensive mechanism by its fans..............Well, I happen to disagree with your assessment of my assessment. I don't completely disagree with your assessment, especially as a GNR, it's pushing it. but I think that is partly what Axl always does, he's always causing a stir. Here we are discussing CD. If it was a remake of UYI we'd just say it's fine, nothing really to talk about. Cd gets a reaction. People are indifferent enough about it to make a point of it. I'm totally indifferent to this record!!!It's not defensive because I do like that about it, I see why others don't, but there other records like it with the scope and percussive/synth focus.I'm not only talking about the forum, I talking about reviews at the time. I think it's true there's less criticism of UYI production on this forum. I think some think UYI is a bit flat. I don't think the production on CD is all that bad in comparison to other 90s albums with similar production like Angel Dust/Nevermind/Achtung Baby. But it has another dimension of Axl's OTT ness.And you know why there would not be such a big difference in opinion if GnR had made another UYI instead of ChiDem?............No big mystery mate it is because the UYI albums are light years better then ChiDem and even the majority of posters on this forum, who don't like ChiDem, like UYI..............And your comment about the reviews got me thinking as I read as many as I could find over the years and don't remember complaints about the production on UYI....So just for fun I googled UYI reviews and guess what I found? In nearly every review the only real complaint I found was related to the albums having too many filler songs but no real complaints about the production...here are the first several I read in the order they came up on google so there was no cherry picking on my part.........http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/2350/Guns-N-Roses-Use-Your-Illusion-II/http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/use-your-illusion-i-19911017http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/compact_discs/guns_n_roses/use_your_illusion_i/index.html?no_takeoverhttp://www.theaceblackblog.com/2011/09/cd-review-use-your-illusion-ii-by-guns.htmlhttp://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&id=1436too be fair I did find a few that mentioned the production but the majority focused on the albums having filler songs as the main complaintthis one mentioned the overblown production in passing http://www.allmusic.com/album/use-your-illusion-ii-mw0000035625As does this one but again the biggest complaint is they have too much filler materialhttp://www.examiner.com/article/review-use-your-illusion-ii-by-guns-n-rosesOut of the first seven reviews I pulled up 6 of them thought the biggest flaw was too many filler songsSo again I have to call bullshit to your claim that people also complained about the production of UYI as they do ChiDem as I can find little to no evidence on this forum or in the music reviews........... 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Fin Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) ChiDem is not overproduced. The album playlist is a mess for any "non - New Gn'R die hard", as has already been sorted out in the thread. Song-by-song, it's not overproduced. Edited January 11, 2014 by Fin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young_Gun Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Best album ever? No, but it was a lot more powerful as a 9-song leak.Scraped, This I Love and Shackler's should have stayed in the vault, and I imagine that's how most will feel about Zodiac, Seven and Berlin, etc.Shacklers was a nice addition I think. Scraped surely would not have been missed. Riad is a song many people are polarized by. I personally listen to "Sorry" the least despite it being a Bucket song and the solo being killer.But no, a 10 track Chidem would not have made it to the best album ever. I LOVE Chidem but I don't believe it is THAT good lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovim Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) It would have been very beneficial for Chinese as an album if it contained more hard rockers. Make it more grounded.Seems like you need more time to recover from the more elaborate numbers the 'epic' material.I've resorted to listening to that 13 seconds Jackie Chan leak. I have a feeling Axl wrote a bunch of unreleased stuff that is more punchy and heavy. Maybe it's easy to forget that we only got half an album. It's not the complete puzzle yet. It feels unbalanced cause the other half of Chinese serves the concept in that aspect. Maybe. Edited January 11, 2014 by Rovim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) Except we are not talking about those other albums we are talking about Chinese Democracy and fans rarely complain about poor production on UYI like they do ChiDem.....Even some of the ChiDem fans here are objective enough to admit that the production is a mess and is not what they like about the album......To deny people didn't have a problem with production on UYI is delusional. I don't think you mean that, you mean it sold a ton anyway. But there was some criticism of UYI even from within the band/Niven about the Elton Rose songs from fans saying it's not as good as AFD, Axl has lost it etc.I agree some people don't like the production of CD. I agree from track to track it changes and that is indulgent/messy. For the most part it holds together and the scope of material and treatment per track is awesome. You can see where the problem comes from on UYI, there's Axl's songs which he might wanted more bombastic and pomp and then there's Izzy's and Slash's they wanted more rawer. They had to leave the band to do what they wanted.My solution would have been to just do each guys songs like they wanted and throw them on an album, with only a producer suggesting they do something to pull the record together. I think if Slither and Fall to Pieces and Time Gone By and Shuffle it All with TIL and Catcher with the same productions fans might say TIL is OTT but hey Slither and Time Gone By are awesome. That's how some viewed UYI. Like eeeww what is Nov Rain? but hey look at Perfect Crime, Double Talkin Jive. No actually people bitch about the production of UYI much much less than they do about ChiDem....Most of the complaints I read on this forum about UYI are related to the fact that there is too much filler material and the band would have been better off putting out one album of the best songs and not much about the production value.....in fact I have read posters here who like ChiDem complain about the production and I happen to disagree with your assessment of ChiDem, as do others on this forum, as I think it mediocre at best.Personally I think the original leaks of ChiDem are better than the released album and would love to hear the raw versions of UYI before Axl got his hands on them but the production is nowhere near as bad as ChiDem and trying to claim that is part of that albums brilliance is nothing but a defensive mechanism by its fans.............. Well, I happen to disagree with your assessment of my assessment. I don't completely disagree with your assessment, especially as a GNR, it's pushing it. but I think that is partly what Axl always does, he's always causing a stir. Here we are discussing CD. If it was a remake of UYI we'd just say it's fine, nothing really to talk about. Cd gets a reaction. People are indifferent enough about it to make a point of it. I'm totally indifferent to this record!!!It's not defensive because I do like that about it, I see why others don't, but there other records like it with the scope and percussive/synth focus.I'm not only talking about the forum, I talking about reviews at the time. I think it's true there's less criticism of UYI production on this forum. I think some think UYI is a bit flat. I don't think the production on CD is all that bad in comparison to other 90s albums with similar production like Angel Dust/Nevermind/Achtung Baby. But it has another dimension of Axl's OTT ness. And you know why there would not be such a big difference in opinion if GnR had made another UYI instead of ChiDem?............No big mystery mate it is because the UYI albums are light years better then ChiDem and even the majority of posters on this forum, who don't like ChiDem, like UYI..............And your comment about the reviews got me thinking as I read as many as I could find over the years and don't remember complaints about the production on UYI....So just for fun I googled UYI reviews and guess what I found? In nearly every review the only real complaint I found was related to the albums having too many filler songs but no real complaints about the production...here are the first several I read in the order they came up on google so there was no cherry picking on my part.........http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/2350/Guns-N-Roses-Use-Your-Illusion-II/http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/use-your-illusion-i-19911017http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/compact_discs/guns_n_roses/use_your_illusion_i/index.html?no_takeoverhttp://www.theaceblackblog.com/2011/09/cd-review-use-your-illusion-ii-by-guns.htmlhttp://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&id=1436too be fair I did find a few that mentioned the production but the majority focused on the albums having filler songs as the main complaintthis one mentioned the overblown production in passing http://www.allmusic.com/album/use-your-illusion-ii-mw0000035625As does this one but again the biggest complaint is they have too much filler materialhttp://www.examiner.com/article/review-use-your-illusion-ii-by-guns-n-rosesOut of the first seven reviews I pulled up 6 of them thought the biggest flaw was too many filler songsSo again I have to call bullshit to your claim that people also complained about the production of UYI as they do ChiDem as I can find little to no evidence on this forum or in the music reviews...........Well the filler tracks are a criticism of the production. It was always too many songs on the bloated UYI set and too many epics. Axl kind of reigned things in on CD. But I did read NME, Melody Maker, Metal Hammer, Kerrang who all ripped into GNR. I know most mags balance it out but they seemed to hate Axl. But they often tossed words like bloated production out just in whole scheme of this big over the top rock story. Sensationalism. Also I read tabloids, newspapers who really didnt know. I think thats GNR real level, like Oasis they are beyond clasdic rock critics. They sold tons of records despite the critics running them down. I mean I remember one live review of the UYI tour which said they just werent bad enough live, not punk enough. I think coming out of a punk rock phase UYI was seen as pompous rock by much of more punk or metal press. But actually Bill Price gave UYI a much harder edge than AFD. Its like Queen meets SexPistols. Even Slash and Niven prefered the demos of UYI and Slash was saying Axl added all these bits like quotes or deep vocals etc. Slash said he told Axl the less layers you add the bigger it sounds. So I really do think there were sections of the uk media that definitely saw UYI as bloated and overproduced. because in the context of punk and grunge it was at the time. But in terms of now it seems pretty hard edged. I also remember that UYI hate coming to an end. It was around the time VR came out, suddenly all the ballads were cool again and I read that UYI was widely accepted to be the bands strongest material. Siddenly it was when the band showed they could write great songs not only about drinking and drugs. I think its pretty well established that UYI were bloated with OTT production but Im not sure they were, its just what was being spread around. Its like people wanted or expected another AFD and UYI just wasnt like that. The rockers were filler and the ballads were too long. like in that Niven interview recently on youtube a whole panel sat their and Nov Rain was too long. I sort of remember people laughing about the strings as well. I just think GNR went with Metallica, Megadeth, Maiden for a bit and Nov Rain just took them away from those metallers, this is in the UK. Edited January 11, 2014 by wasted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnrfan93 Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) Except we are not talking about those other albums we are talking about Chinese Democracy and fans rarely complain about poor production on UYI like they do ChiDem.....Even some of the ChiDem fans here are objective enough to admit that the production is a mess and is not what they like about the album......To deny people didn't have a problem with production on UYI is delusional. I don't think you mean that, you mean it sold a ton anyway. But there was some criticism of UYI even from within the band/Niven about the Elton Rose songs from fans saying it's not as good as AFD, Axl has lost it etc.I agree some people don't like the production of CD. I agree from track to track it changes and that is indulgent/messy. For the most part it holds together and the scope of material and treatment per track is awesome. You can see where the problem comes from on UYI, there's Axl's songs which he might wanted more bombastic and pomp and then there's Izzy's and Slash's they wanted more rawer. They had to leave the band to do what they wanted.My solution would have been to just do each guys songs like they wanted and throw them on an album, with only a producer suggesting they do something to pull the record together. I think if Slither and Fall to Pieces and Time Gone By and Shuffle it All with TIL and Catcher with the same productions fans might say TIL is OTT but hey Slither and Time Gone By are awesome. That's how some viewed UYI. Like eeeww what is Nov Rain? but hey look at Perfect Crime, Double Talkin Jive. No actually people bitch about the production of UYI much much less than they do about ChiDem....Most of the complaints I read on this forum about UYI are related to the fact that there is too much filler material and the band would have been better off putting out one album of the best songs and not much about the production value.....in fact I have read posters here who like ChiDem complain about the production and I happen to disagree with your assessment of ChiDem, as do others on this forum, as I think it mediocre at best.Personally I think the original leaks of ChiDem are better than the released album and would love to hear the raw versions of UYI before Axl got his hands on them but the production is nowhere near as bad as ChiDem and trying to claim that is part of that albums brilliance is nothing but a defensive mechanism by its fans..............Well, I happen to disagree with your assessment of my assessment. I don't completely disagree with your assessment, especially as a GNR, it's pushing it. but I think that is partly what Axl always does, he's always causing a stir. Here we are discussing CD. If it was a remake of UYI we'd just say it's fine, nothing really to talk about. Cd gets a reaction. People are indifferent enough about it to make a point of it. I'm totally indifferent to this record!!!It's not defensive because I do like that about it, I see why others don't, but there other records like it with the scope and percussive/synth focus.I'm not only talking about the forum, I talking about reviews at the time. I think it's true there's less criticism of UYI production on this forum. I think some think UYI is a bit flat. I don't think the production on CD is all that bad in comparison to other 90s albums with similar production like Angel Dust/Nevermind/Achtung Baby. But it has another dimension of Axl's OTT ness.And you know why there would not be such a big difference in opinion if GnR had made another UYI instead of ChiDem?............No big mystery mate it is because the UYI albums are light years better then ChiDem and even the majority of posters on this forum, who don't like ChiDem, like UYI..............And your comment about the reviews got me thinking as I read as many as I could find over the years and don't remember complaints about the production on UYI....So just for fun I googled UYI reviews and guess what I found? In nearly every review the only real complaint I found was related to the albums having too many filler songs but no real complaints about the production...here are the first several I read in the order they came up on google so there was no cherry picking on my part.........http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/2350/Guns-N-Roses-Use-Your-Illusion-II/http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/use-your-illusion-i-19911017http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/compact_discs/guns_n_roses/use_your_illusion_i/index.html?no_takeoverhttp://www.theaceblackblog.com/2011/09/cd-review-use-your-illusion-ii-by-guns.htmlhttp://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&id=1436too be fair I did find a few that mentioned the production but the majority focused on the albums having filler songs as the main complaintthis one mentioned the overblown production in passing http://www.allmusic.com/album/use-your-illusion-ii-mw0000035625As does this one but again the biggest complaint is they have too much filler materialhttp://www.examiner.com/article/review-use-your-illusion-ii-by-guns-n-rosesOut of the first seven reviews I pulled up 6 of them thought the biggest flaw was too many filler songsSo again I have to call bullshit to your claim that people also complained about the production of UYI as they do ChiDem as I can find little to no evidence on this forum or in the music reviews...........While I love the Illusions IMO the production isn't all that great.Izzy isn't very prominent in the mix,dated honky tonk piano on songs like Civil War and Bad Obsession,and pointless sound effects like the phone call in Heaven's Door.Matt's heavy drum sound leaves much to be desired on most songs too, although it sounds great on stuff like YCBM & Locomotive,And a bit off topic and It may be blasphemy but i've always found Axl's voice much weaker on the Illusions too,i'm not sure if its the way its mixed but it sounds much more hoarse and hard to understand,especially on fast stuff like Right Next Door To Hell.I've always wondered what those songs would sound like if he still had his Appetite voice....But still I love the Illusions, take the best 12 songs and you have an album better than Appetite Edited January 11, 2014 by gnrfan93 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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