Is it really possible to unbiasedly gauge CD's success, or lack thereof, by simply looking at album sales?

[TombRaider]

I'm not an expert in the music business and I don't even research into how much albums I'm really into have actually sold. You know, I'm just the guy that patiently waits for albums to be released and then I go down to the store and spend my hard-earned money to buy the damned thing… or I'll get it on iTunes… or just download the whole thing. My point is, I'm just a consumer.

However, there are plenty of threads here discussing if CD was successful or not. As I've said before, all I know is that I do like it now. More than half of the songs on CD are good and worth my time. That's all I know. So in my book, yes. It was successful. In my world it was.

BUT...

When I peruse the threads about CD, it becomes pretty obvious that album sales are usually the biggest argument that comes up supporting the notion that yes, CD was a huge success.

My question is though: is it possible to gauge CD's success, or any other album's success for that matter, by looking at sales? Let me put it this way and I hope I don't sound like an idiot or some retard.

How many people are GnR fans around the world? I've no idea. But, for the sake of argument, let's go with a 100% totally random/made-up number I just pulled out of my hairy ass: 5,000,000.

If every single one of those GnR fans buys one album for himself/herself, the album will have sold 5,000,000 copies. Right? That does not mean though that they will have liked it. They bought it because they're fans. But maybe they got home and listened to it and decided they were never gonna listen to it again.

So unless I am missing something here, and I know I am, going by sales doesn't really give you an accurate picture of an album's success.

The same thing happens with movies, imho. You know, if you find out that Spielberg and Tom Hanks are teamin up again to release another WWII movie, in the tradition of Private Ryan and Band of Brothers, let's say a movie about Operation Greif or the Battle of the Bulge, chances are you and just about every single enthusiastic (is that how you spell it?) moviegoer will pay to see it. Let's say it opens worldwide on June, 7, 2014. You can safely estimare that around 7,000,000 people worldwide (another random number) will see it on that first weekend. But even if it flops, it'll already have made all that money from the ticket you bought.

Now, I know that directors and movie studios don't get to keep all the money from movie tickets. I know. But you get my point.

So… how can you actually gauge CD's success?

Another argument is: But I liked it! and so did all my friends! And when I went to this gig, everyone was having a great time when they played (enter random CD track).

But isn't that a little bit subjective? I mean, I love, I absolutely love Iron Maiden's The X Factor. But ask your average Iron Maiden fan out there and they'll more than likely say it sucks. And I don't think it sold that much compared to other classic albums.

So… how do you do this?

Just curious.

[Bobbo]

Oh boy...

[magisme]

Many people have made the argument that CD sold as much as it did primarily because it carried the name Guns N Roses. I think that argument is pretty damn air tight. But that still doesn't say whether CD was a commercial success, because that really depends upon expectations and such. 14 years, $14 million, we know Axl wanted it to sell like 20 million - from that perspective it's a failure.

Whether it's a failure artistically... I think it is. For all the wait and anticipation, the album was one big wet fart. Not one great song. Not even one song that's good all the way through. IMO, of course. But what's not IMO is that the album made no impact on music whatsoever. It might as well not have happened. CD's artistic legacy is non-existent. That said, it received some decent to good reviews, but I tend to think those people were mostly retards trying to get ahead of a trend that never happened. Not to say no one likes CD. Clearly some people do. Just not that many.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Yes it is, we're not talking about some album like Raw Power that sold nothing cuz it was way ahead of it's time, albums like that tend to have started to show some signs of their quality and it's resultant effect after 6 years of having been on the shelf.

I quantify it by record sales (by virtue of what GnR are as a band), broad critical consensus, personal reckoning and whether it achieved what it set out to do i.e. pick GnR up where they left of and/or live up to the standard of the bands catalogue, the latter being probably the most important when you are talking of a band of GnRs pedigree.

When you make a point of carrying on with a bands name despite all logic and common sense suggesting that you shouldn't then you also take on the responsibility to the pedigree that GnR carries and if you don't do that, no matter how good the album is, it'll be remembered a as a piece of shit. The fact that it was average or slightly above is almost more damaging to it than if it was a piece of shit where Axl had gone totally out there and made some weird fuckin' art album. After all the hype and all the waiting and all the hours sitting in the sun wondering it was actually just Axl trying to make a Guns n Roses album without Guns n Roses...and there's something really sad about that. Just Axls attempt at a very tarted up GnR album. Unfortunately as the tarting up in the world doesn't make up for certain essential ingredients. A touch of Duff, a smidgen of Izzy and a pinch of Slash and you might've had something.

Also, don't take too long, thats just pressure you don't need and most likely won't be able to deal with.

Edited January 11, 2014 by sugaraylen

[My Name is Trinity]

chinese democracy had less impact than the spaghetti incident.... that says it all.

[Padme]

Dude if you like CD that fine. Don´t worry bout sales and just enjoy it. However if you are going to say that CD is better than AFD. I´d like to know what makes you think that. I don´t mean to argue. I´m just curious.

[Bobbo]

chinese democracy had less impact than the spaghetti incident.... that says it all.

/thread

Edited January 11, 2014 by Bobbo

[Guest Len B'stard]

Dude if you like CD that fine. Don´t worry bout sales and just enjoy it. However if you are going to say that CD is better than AFD. I´d like to know what makes you think that. I don´t mean to argue. I´m just curious.

I do mean to argue, if you think Chi Dem is better that Appetite then you're a retard. I don't give a shit about this airy fairy art student thing of 'it's subjectiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive' and all that, that shit is obvious, that ain't no answer to no question, thats just people stating the fucking obvious, when a person speaks what they think of something, it's gonna be subjective, thats how the shit works and i'm stating that I'm fucking right here, so calm down people, you're clearly having trouble thinking straight but don't fret, Uncle Len is here to set you straight, here goes:

In any language, on any planet, on any level, in any space and time...Appetite is better than Chi Dem. My evidence for that is my ears...and if yours don't stand alongside em then perhaps you need to look into getting your shit syringed or something. Perhaps a soul transplant, I don't know but trust me and trust that liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle voice of reason in yourself that agrees with me.

[Bobbo]

^gotta love this guy

[John Bonham]

Chinese Democracy is out-of-print in the United States. Not a success.

[Rovim]

Dude if you like CD that fine. Don´t worry bout sales and just enjoy it. However if you are going to say that CD is better than AFD. I´d like to know what makes you think that. I don´t mean to argue. I´m just curious.

I do mean to argue, if you think Chi Dem is better that Appetite then you're a retard. I don't give a shit about this airy fairy art student thing of 'it's subjectiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive' and all that, that shit is obvious, that ain't no answer to no question, thats just people stating the fucking obvious, when a person speaks what they think of something, it's gonna be subjective, thats how the shit works and i'm stating that I'm fucking right here, so calm down people, you're clearly having trouble thinking straight but don't fret, Uncle Len is here to set you straight, here goes:

In any language, on any planet, on any level, in any space and time...Appetite is better than Chi Dem. My evidence for that is my ears...and if yours don't stand alongside em then perhaps you need to look into getting your shit syringed or something. Perhaps a soul transplant, I don't know but trust me and trust that liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle voice of reason in yourself that agrees with me.

I love reading your posts man but this is just a bunch of bullshit. You don't care about the fact music is subjective but that doesn't make it any less of a fact.

What is better anyway? Music is basically just a reflection of emotion that you relate to. Different people relate to different types of music, art, food, whatever.

The problem with your post imo is that you present 'best' as some kind of an even standard just because you think AFD is better then Chinese. That shit don't work.

Having said that, I do think AFD is a better record for me as in, I feel it's still triggers something very unique that few other rock albums even come close to.

[Subtle Signs]

Speaking of sales why are the figures for this album so hard to find? I remember the thread where it was said Chi Dem sold over three million copies worldwide but the source was like some blogger via Universal Music Chile.

[Padme]

Dude if you like CD that fine. Don´t worry bout sales and just enjoy it. However if you are going to say that CD is better than AFD. I´d like to know what makes you think that. I don´t mean to argue. I´m just curious.

I do mean to argue, if you think Chi Dem is better that Appetite then you're a retard. I don't give a shit about this airy fairy art student thing of 'it's subjectiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive' and all that, that shit is obvious, that ain't no answer to no question, thats just people stating the fucking obvious, when a person speaks what they think of something, it's gonna be subjective, thats how the shit works and i'm stating that I'm fucking right here, so calm down people, you're clearly having trouble thinking straight but don't fret, Uncle Len is here to set you straight, here goes:

In any language, on any planet, on any level, in any space and time...Appetite is better than Chi Dem. My evidence for that is my ears...and if yours don't stand alongside em then perhaps you need to look into getting your shit syringed or something. Perhaps a soul transplant, I don't know but trust me and trust that liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle voice of reason in yourself that agrees with me.

I love reading your posts man but this is just a bunch of bullshit. You don't care about the fact music is subjective but that doesn't make it any less of a fact.

What is better anyway? Music is basically just a reflection of emotion that you relate to. Different people relate to different types of music, art, food, whatever.

The problem with your post imo is that you present 'best' as some kind of an even standard just because you think AFD is better then Chinese. That shit don't work.

Having said that, I do think AFD is a better record for me as in, I feel it's still triggers something very unique that few other rock albums even come close to.

I also believe that AFD is by far much better than CD. And I think there is a difference between people who like CD and people who think CD is a masterpiece. What makes CD a masterpiece? I´d like to know about that not sales.

[RichardNixon]

But what's not IMO is that the album made no impact on music whatsoever. It might as well not have happened. CD's artistic legacy is non-existent.

You could say that about virtually every newly released album released by bands that were popular in the 60s-90s.

Edited January 11, 2014 by RichardNixon

[magisme]

But what's not IMO is that the album made no impact on music whatsoever. It might as well not have happened. CD's artistic legacy is non-existent.

You could say that about virtually every newly released album released by bands that were popular in the 60s-90s.

Or not, but I'm not gonna waste my time refuting such a patently ridiculous claim.

[Rovim]

Dude if you like CD that fine. Don´t worry bout sales and just enjoy it. However if you are going to say that CD is better than AFD. I´d like to know what makes you think that. I don´t mean to argue. I´m just curious.

I do mean to argue, if you think Chi Dem is better that Appetite then you're a retard. I don't give a shit about this airy fairy art student thing of 'it's subjectiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive' and all that, that shit is obvious, that ain't no answer to no question, thats just people stating the fucking obvious, when a person speaks what they think of something, it's gonna be subjective, thats how the shit works and i'm stating that I'm fucking right here, so calm down people, you're clearly having trouble thinking straight but don't fret, Uncle Len is here to set you straight, here goes:

In any language, on any planet, on any level, in any space and time...Appetite is better than Chi Dem. My evidence for that is my ears...and if yours don't stand alongside em then perhaps you need to look into getting your shit syringed or something. Perhaps a soul transplant, I don't know but trust me and trust that liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle voice of reason in yourself that agrees with me.

I love reading your posts man but this is just a bunch of bullshit. You don't care about the fact music is subjective but that doesn't make it any less of a fact.

What is better anyway? Music is basically just a reflection of emotion that you relate to. Different people relate to different types of music, art, food, whatever.

The problem with your post imo is that you present 'best' as some kind of an even standard just because you think AFD is better then Chinese. That shit don't work.

Having said that, I do think AFD is a better record for me as in, I feel it's still triggers something very unique that few other rock albums even come close to.

I also believe that AFD is by far much better than CD. And I think there is a difference between people who like CD and people who think CD is a masterpiece. What makes CD a masterpiece? I´d like to know about that not sales.

Are you asking me personally? Probably not, but just in case: I think Chinese is far from being a masterpiece. AFD is the only masterpiece Guns has ever managed to create and record imo. I do think Chinese is a great fucking album though.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Rovim

[Guest Len B'stard]

I love reading your posts man but this is just a bunch of bullshit. You don't care about the fact music is subjective but that doesn't make it any less of a fact.

I didn't say it wasn't a fact I was saying that it doesn't carry any weight as a riposte, to say 'yeah but thats just your opinion' well yes it is, it is my opinion on the fact of the matter as i see it, thats what I was trying to say.

What is better anyway? Music is basically just a reflection of emotion that you relate to. Different people relate to different types of music, art, food, whatever.

I don't even think you necessarily have to relate to it, it's just a reflection of emotion and/or passion, it might not be a passion you relate to but you can relate to passion in and of itself. Better is doing the job you were created to do to a higher standard than the other. The fact that Chi Dem had more of a job to do that Appetite is a point I suppose.

The problem with your post imo is that you present 'best' as some kind of an even standard just because you think AFD is better then Chinese. That shit don't work.

How about the majority consensus angle? After all, we're all democrats after a fashion!

Having said that, I do think AFD is a better record for me as in, I feel it's still triggers something very unique that few other rock albums even come close to.

See, see, you know exactly what I mean On paper what you are proposing is correct and what I'm proposing is full of holes...but put it on man, the proof is in the pudding here!

Disclaimer: My previous post was wilfully hyperbolic so as to communicate my absolute love for Appetite, head and shoulders above many-a competitor, i realise that, in the framework of serious discussion and debate notions like 'just listen to it you idiot, what are you talking about?' is not a worthy argument

But you know i'm right!

Edited January 11, 2014 by sugaraylen

[RichardNixon]

But what's not IMO is that the album made no impact on music whatsoever. It might as well not have happened. CD's artistic legacy is non-existent.

You could say that about virtually every newly released album released by bands that were popular in the 60s-90s.

Or not, but I'm not gonna waste my time refuting such a patently ridiculous claim.

Whatever man. How much "impact" did Lighting Bolt or Oceania have? Why don't you go to a Pearl Jam or Pumpkins board and post incessant messages about how Eddie Vedder and Blily Corgan let you down and are just shells of the men that they once were? Apart from Springsteen and U2, every major rock band's new releases just kind of come and go and aren't regarded by the general public as their most memorable work.

Edited January 11, 2014 by RichardNixon

[Guest Len B'stard]

But what's not IMO is that the album made no impact on music whatsoever. It might as well not have happened. CD's artistic legacy is non-existent.

You could say that about virtually every newly released album released by bands that were popular in the 60s-90s.

Or not, but I'm not gonna waste my time refuting such a patently ridiculous claim.

Whatever man. How much "impact" did Lighting Bolt or Oceania have? Why don't you go to a Pearl Jam or Pumpkins board and post incessant messages about how Eddie Vedder and Blily Corgan let you down and are just shells of the men that they once were? Apart from Springsteen and U2, every major rock band's new releases just kind of come and go and aren't regarded by the general public as their best work.

Thats probably due to the fact that there are no major rock bands anymore.

[niceguy]

I've used this analogy before:

ChiDem was a success in the same way that The Phantom Menance was a success.

ChiDem sold a large number, esp in an era where album sales are paltry, due to streaming or downloading (both legal and illegal).

But, ChiDem was a disappointment to the pre-existing fanbase, just like Phantom Menace was.

The difference here is that Axl isn't gonna release any more music. And he's not gonna sell GNR to Disney either

[magisme]

But what's not IMO is that the album made no impact on music whatsoever. It might as well not have happened. CD's artistic legacy is non-existent.

You could say that about virtually every newly released album released by bands that were popular in the 60s-90s.

Or not, but I'm not gonna waste my time refuting such a patently ridiculous claim.

Whatever man. How much "impact" did Lighting Bolt or Oceania have? Why don't you go to a Pearl Jam or Pumpkins board and post incessant messages about how Eddie Vedder and Blily Corgan let you down and are just shells of the men that they once were? Apart from Springsteen and U2, every major rock band's new releases just kind of come and go and aren't regarded by the general public as their most memorable work.

I couldn't give a fuck about Pearl Jam or Smashing Pumpkins. Nice try, though. Go listen to some more Crue and Poison. See how dumbass assumptions work? Unless I'm right, in which case you'll prove that your taste is shit.

[Street Of The Blues]

Why can't it be and stay left at if you like the album listen on and if not stop trying to force opinions on everyone? Even if it undersold expectations it's technically a success for even breaking even at all. That shouldn't matter because most people on the forum i'd imagine don't judge music for being commercially successful. That may have mattered before MuchMusic and MTV paid their dues but with the internet it's not hard to find talented musicians who are lucky to sell a t-shirt or died off trying. Comparing CD to AFD is quite ridiculous because both are set in different styles in a different time by a changed man and changed line-up. Sometimes i wish GN'R fans behaved like metal supporters in terms of acceptance. People who enjoy wide variety of genres don't read these long hate paragraphs, first 10 words usually trigger encrusting headaches.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Street Of The Blues

[magisme]

People who enjoy wide rarity of genres don't read these long hate paragraphs, first 10 words usually trigger encrusting headaches.

I'll assume you mean variety and call bullshit.

I'll put the variety in my taste up against any of you fuckers who get a stiffy at the sound of a Steph Seymour ballad.

[RichardNixon]

But what's not IMO is that the album made no impact on music whatsoever. It might as well not have happened. CD's artistic legacy is non-existent.

You could say that about virtually every newly released album released by bands that were popular in the 60s-90s.

Or not, but I'm not gonna waste my time refuting such a patently ridiculous claim.

Whatever man. How much "impact" did Lighting Bolt or Oceania have? Why don't you go to a Pearl Jam or Pumpkins board and post incessant messages about how Eddie Vedder and Blily Corgan let you down and are just shells of the men that they once were? Apart from Springsteen and U2, every major rock band's new releases just kind of come and go and aren't regarded by the general public as their most memorable work.

I couldn't give a fuck about Pearl Jam or Smashing Pumpkins. Nice try, though. Go listen to some more Crue and Poison. See how dumbass assumptions work? Unless I'm right, in which case you'll prove that your taste is shit.

I like both bands but seldom listen to them. I listen to a lot of classic rock, Doors, Beatles, stuff like that.

I've used this analogy before:

ChiDem was a success in the same way that The Phantom Menance was a success.

ChiDem sold a large number, esp in an era where album sales are paltry, due to streaming or downloading (both legal and illegal).

But, ChiDem was a disappointment to the pre-existing fanbase, just like Phantom Menace was.

The difference here is that Axl isn't gonna release any more music. And he's not gonna sell GNR to Disney either

There's no way of knowing how many people who bought Chinese Democracy were "disappointed" with it, while there does seem to be a consensus that TPM sucked ass.

[Bards]

Even if it undersold expectations it's technically a success for even breaking even at all.

No. You don't spend $14 million with the goal of breaking even.

There's no way of knowing how many people who bought Chinese Democracy were "disappointed" with it, while there does seem to be a consensus that TPM sucked ass.

There's a consensus that CD was a disappointment, you just happen to be tuning the majority of voices out.