Is it really possible to unbiasedly gauge CD's success, or lack thereof, by simply looking at album sales?

[RichardNixon]

Even if it undersold expectations it's technically a success for even breaking even at all.

No. You don't spend $14 million with the goal of breaking even.

There's no way of knowing how many people who bought Chinese Democracy were "disappointed" with it, while there does seem to be a consensus that TPM sucked ass.

There's a consensus that CD was a disappointment, you just happen to be tuning the majority of voices out.

The loudest voices may be calling it a disappointment, but that's not the same as a majority. Fact is, only a fraction of the 3 million+ people who bought the album have voiced their opinion. I've said many times, there's no way of knowing how many people who bought the album, like the album. I love the album and up until a few weeks ago would seldom post on this board because the negativity of a few ruins the enjoyment of posting.

Edited January 11, 2014 by RichardNixon

[Guest cbgnr666]

Should have released it with a Walmart exclusive instead of Best Buy.That way in about Three and half months there was possibility of 1 billion US shoppers passing CD displays and promotion and this would have lead to a huge increase in sales, at least initially if just a tiny fraction of those people bought it,like Black Ice from ACDC.

Instead they went Best buy where it would take 10 years to get that kind of consumer traffic.Horrible,horrible deal.

Edited January 11, 2014 by cbgnr666

[Iron MikeyJ]

I really like CD, I would even go as far as to say it is a great album. But it is not better than Appetite or either Illusion. Is that my opinion? Yes. It is ok to like CD better than Appetite, but you would have to be daft to honestly believe it is better than Appetite.

Appetite is a once in a generation album. The stars aligned when that album was written and recorded.

I will say this though, fans that maybe didn't like CD at first, probably become new fans of the album after seeing the band live. I saw the faces in the crowd, and the responses the CD songs get. I'm sure a lot of people leave the show thinking "I need to get that album, or I need to listen to it again, or I like that song". I do think the band is winning over fans with their live show.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Mike420

[EvH]

I've used this analogy before:

ChiDem was a success in the same way that The Phantom Menance was a success.

ChiDem sold a large number, esp in an era where album sales are paltry, due to streaming or downloading (both legal and illegal).

But, ChiDem was a disappointment to the pre-existing fanbase, just like Phantom Menace was.

The difference here is that Axl isn't gonna release any more music. And he's not gonna sell GNR to Disney either

DJ Ashba being GNRs Jar Jar. A stupid looking and goofy sounding clown to fools kids, and for all the true fans to facepalm to.

[Street Of The Blues]

People who enjoy wide rarity of genres don't read these long hate paragraphs, first 10 words usually trigger encrusting headaches.

I'll assume you mean variety and call bullshit.

I'll put the variety in my taste up against any of you fuckers who get a stiffy at the sound of a Steph Seymour ballad.

Auto correct is a lie, . I guess that's just how it is from my perspective, could be lack of coffee. But you tell 'em man, we as individuals shouldn't be fed what is good or bad in terms of music.

[Padme]

Why can't it be and stay left at if you like the album listen on and if not stop trying to force opinions on everyone? Even if it undersold expectations it's technically a success for even breaking even at all. That shouldn't matter because most people on the forum i'd imagine don't judge music for being commercially successful. That may have mattered before MuchMusic and MTV paid their dues but with the internet it's not hard to find talented musicians who are lucky to sell a t-shirt or died off trying. Comparing CD to AFD is quite ridiculous because both are set in different styles in a different time by a changed man and changed line-up. Sometimes i wish GN'R fans behaved like metal supporters in terms of acceptance. People who enjoy wide rarity of genres don't read these long hate paragraphs, first 10 words usually trigger encrusting headaches.

If you´re gonna chance style and line up. If you are gonna spent 14 millions on it .And it´s gonna take 14 years to make it. It better be the best album ever made. Well it is not. So CD was not worthy of all that trouble. All Axl has accomplished is to divide to fan base. And the casual rock fan just decided to ignore it and forget all about GN´R

[wasted]

Success is relative. AFD was success because it sold a lot more than most records at that time.

Whereas CD sold 3 mil and Black Ice sold about 6 mil. CD isnt a success in terms of sales.

But I know what you mean I like some albums that sold 100k that were considered a success.

I think CD probably only sold to dedicated GNR fans. Its didnt crossover in a pop way with hit song and doubt casual rock fans bought it. Its not accessible enough for that. Like I felt I had to get The Killers Sams Town. I onlyvknow singers name but its like a must have obvious classic.

[Street Of The Blues]

If it was handed over in 1999 the hype would have killed it but the chance to move onward would have saved some grace from being picked apart this much. We can all agree that 14 years is too much, our own speculation often built too high created an album that was born to lose. It is at least a good listen minus Riad N' The Bedouins imo.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Street Of The Blues

[wasted]

I think in 99, the label and Axl would have wanted to sell 20 mil. It was still possiblw then. But probably still not really. Thats why they rerecorded with RTB.

[Kush]

Oh boy...

95% of what is posted here these days doesn't deserve much more than a "fucking derrrrrr" response.

[DieselDaisy]

It flopped commercially and flopped artistically. Even DJ Ashba prefers AFD; Axl probably does also as he plays much more of that album live than CD songs. It is Axl's Hot Space or St Anger.

I still like 3-4 songs on it, TWAT and Better, but christ, there are also some turkeys on that disc, some outright stinkers: ten years in the making and $13 million and we end up with Scraped! I bet Interscope thought, 'what is this piece of crap?', when Axl finally handed them the album - ''we want a refund?'' Even Best Buy could not be arsed to sell the thing haha. They paid all that money probably under the impression that CD would contain songs like Estranged; they must have got the fright of their life when they heard the thing.

Edited January 11, 2014 by DieselDaisy

[Bards]

Even if it undersold expectations it's technically a success for even breaking even at all.

No. You don't spend $14 million with the goal of breaking even.

There's no way of knowing how many people who bought Chinese Democracy were "disappointed" with it, while there does seem to be a consensus that TPM sucked ass.

There's a consensus that CD was a disappointment, you just happen to be tuning the majority of voices out.

The loudest voices may be calling it a disappointment, but that's not the same as a majority. Fact is, only a fraction of the 3 million+ people who bought the album have voiced their opinion. I've said many times, there's no way of knowing how many people who bought the album, like the album. I love the album and up until a few weeks ago would seldom post on this board because the negativity of a few ruins the enjoyment of posting.

Your logic seems to indicate there is some great unsourced population that secretly love the album but are not contributing their voices to any sort of discussion about it, whether online or in real life. No calls into radio stations requesting it, no asks of DJ's at rock clubs, no "you've gotta hear this!" conversations to friends, etc. I suppose it's possible, but it seems unlikely.

You say it's only the loudest voices calling it a disappointment, but the silence of the great unwashed masses on the subject speaks volumes. Fact is, as much as you don't like the supposed "negativity" towards the album on this forum, this is one of the only places on the planet that even discuss it. The rest of the world can't even muster up the energy to give it a "meh".

[Guest cbgnr666]

It flopped commercially and flopped artistically. Even DJ Ashba prefers AFD; Axl probably does also as he plays much more of that album live than CD songs. It is Axl's Hot Space or St Anger.

I still like 3-4 songs on it, TWAT and Better, but christ, there are also some turkeys on that disc, some outright stinkers: ten years in the making and $13 million and we end up with Scraped! I bet Interscope thought, 'what is this piece of crap?', when Axl finally handed them the album - ''we want a refund?'' Even Best Buy could not be arsed to sell the thing haha. They paid all that money probably under the impression that CD would contain songs like Estranged; they must have got the fright of their life when they heard the thing.

Pretty sure who ever brokered the deal with Azoff from BB would have probably heard it. And CD does contain songs much more similiar to Estranged than the old retro gnr,maybe that's the thing.Estranged was dissed pretty hard back in the day,especially when the video came out.It was a punching bag on the video networks,and it wasn't a radio hit by no means. Cd doesn't quite have an Estranged song for me either but it comes close on some songs.

Edited January 11, 2014 by cbgnr666

[Bono]

in 2013 I recall hearing every song from AFD except Think About You, It's So Easy, My Michelle, Anything Goes & You're Crazy on multiple radio stations. I haven't heard a peep from CD on radio since probably 2009. The world has spoken. AFD kicks the shit outta CD. There's no comparison but if you wanna compare them like some crazies do, CD absolutely SUCKS in comparison to AFD.

CD is an after thought. It means nothing to anyone outside these forum walls. It bombed and most who heard it don't give a flying fuck about it because it simply wasn't very good. The end. Why on earth GnR is sitting there allowing the world to forget them and have CD be the brand's lasting legacy is beyond me. A band overloaded with talent parading around like a tribute act. Embarrassing

[Guest cbgnr666]

I havn't heard Estranged once on the radio.Gnr's greatest song.imo.Must be forgotten.

Edited January 11, 2014 by cbgnr666

[RichardNixon]

Even if it undersold expectations it's technically a success for even breaking even at all.

No. You don't spend $14 million with the goal of breaking even.

There's no way of knowing how many people who bought Chinese Democracy were "disappointed" with it, while there does seem to be a consensus that TPM sucked ass.

There's a consensus that CD was a disappointment, you just happen to be tuning the majority of voices out.

The loudest voices may be calling it a disappointment, but that's not the same as a majority. Fact is, only a fraction of the 3 million+ people who bought the album have voiced their opinion. I've said many times, there's no way of knowing how many people who bought the album, like the album. I love the album and up until a few weeks ago would seldom post on this board because the negativity of a few ruins the enjoyment of posting.

Your logic seems to indicate there is some great unsourced population that secretly love the album but are not contributing their voices to any sort of discussion about it, whether online or in real life. No calls into radio stations requesting it, no asks of DJ's at rock clubs, no "you've gotta hear this!" conversations to friends, etc. I suppose it's possible, but it seems unlikely.

You say it's only the loudest voices calling it a disappointment, but the silence of the great unwashed masses on the subject speaks volumes. Fact is, as much as you don't like the supposed "negativity" towards the album on this forum, this is one of the only places on the planet that even discuss it. The rest of the world can't even muster up the energy to give it a "meh".

I never said that there was a "great unsourced population that secretly love the album." I stated that of the 3+ million people who bought the album there's no way of knowing how many of them loved it, liked it, thought it was okay or hated it.

[DieselDaisy]

It flopped commercially and flopped artistically. Even DJ Ashba prefers AFD; Axl probably does also as he plays much more of that album live than CD songs. It is Axl's Hot Space or St Anger.

I still like 3-4 songs on it, TWAT and Better, but christ, there are also some turkeys on that disc, some outright stinkers: ten years in the making and $13 million and we end up with Scraped! I bet Interscope thought, 'what is this piece of crap?', when Axl finally handed them the album - ''we want a refund?'' Even Best Buy could not be arsed to sell the thing haha. They paid all that money probably under the impression that CD would contain songs like Estranged; they must have got the fright of their life when they heard the thing.

Pretty sure who ever brokered the deal with Azoff from BB would have probably heard it. And CD does contain songs much more similiar to Estranged than the old retro gnr,maybe that's the thing.Estranged was dissed pretty hard back in the day,especially when the video came out.It was a punching bag on the video networks,and it wasn't a radio hit by no means. Cd doesn't quite have an Estranged song for me either but it comes close on some songs.

There are two shitty Coldplay songs on there, Catcher in the Rye and Prostitute. They are no where near the calibre of Estranged or even Breakdown. The best ballad is certainly Streets of Dreams/The Blues, a classy Illusion II-style song, but that is still not quite on the level of Estranged. This I Love is merely cringeworthy.

[wasted]

All bands have a peak, Axl just stuck around to live the slump. I think GNR will make their DM or Black_Ice next. CD is the St Anger or Pop of GNR to most people.

Edited January 12, 2014 by wasted

[rockerman]

SInce this question plauges those who just cant wrap their head around the fact that at best CD was so so album that just didnt have the balls to roll on up with AFD and UYI I suggest you do this poll.

go down to your local city center...randomly pick 100 people between the ages of 15 and 50 and ask them:

1) Have you ever heard of a band Guns and Roses?

IF YES PREECEED TO QUESTION 2 ..iF NO ask them if they are lying.

2) Can you name me the last album that GNR put out?

if yes) what song? if yes name the line up that wrote that song.

IF no preceed to question 3

3) Do you know which player from the orginal lineup is in GNR at the present moment?

if yes...who? If No preceed to question 4

4) There is no question 4.

Now.. compile your answers and multiply it accordingly based upon the demographic you have a sample of...

I wouldnt bet your paycheck that the general public is going to answer yes to 2 .

[Bono]

I havn't heard Estranged once on the radio.Gnr's greatest song.imo.Must be forgotten.

I've heard it on radio multiple times actually but the fact is it's a near 10 minute song so it's not gonna be on radio often if at all so your attempt to make a condescending point falls incredibly flat. Nice try though. The 4 minute singles from CD nobody gives a fuck about let alone the other songs on the album. Hence no airplay whatsoever.

[IRanOutOfIdeas]

Yayyyy time for my two cents.

I think for the most part, CD was a flop. It did sell a few million records commercially (Which is a lot more than other records are selling nowadays and in that aspect, it is a success), but it sold drastically below expectations. If you're going to put out a $10 million plus record, you better be selling a shitload of copies. But it didn't. This is probably due to the Best Buy exclusive deal. Anyways in that aspect, it's a failure.

Critically wise, yes it is true that your opinion trumps whatever anyone else says when it comes to music. You like what you like. I don't care if it's Korean Pop or Avant Garde Jazz or Chinese Democracy; if you like it, I can't tell you to unlike it. A lot of people on this damn forum swear it's the greatest thing ever recorded.

That being said though, a large portion of most critics and the general public think it's a meh record. I personally don't think it's a masterpiece. It's a decent record in my eyes; I think Better is on par with any other classic GNR song and there are a few others on the record I enjoy, but for the most part I think CD is a overly heavy, inaccessible mess and quite a large amount of people agree with me on that. Is it a masterpiece in my opinion? Far from it, that goes to AFD and I think people who think otherwise are fucking daft. But hey, that's my opinion. You're going to be hard-pressed to find people who fervently adore CD (Or new-GNR in general) outside of this forum.

So once again, if you enjoy CD, congratulations! Enjoy the fuck out of it and don't give a damn about what others think. BUT, because a majority of people think it's meh, it can be considered a flop. I will admit though, I seriously think CD has the potential to be critically re-evaluated in the future because there's really nothing else like it. It'll probably gain favor with me with repeated listening.

Really when it comes down to it, I think CD was destined to fail. After 15+ years of no original music, it's legend and expectations ultimately got the best of it. If it was released maybe in 2001, it would've been a different story. If it was released under Axl's own name (Which I really think it should have been), it would've been a different story.

I just like talking about bands that failed or squandered their success (GNR, BIg Star, Badfinger and a fuckload of others) because it's a very interesting subject to talk about. What could have been is a universal thing I think. I'm always gonna think that '86-'93 GNR was the best, but I'm a realist and I've gained a greater appreciation for new-GNR. That being said though, I still feel like new-GNR could be a lot better than what they are now. If only they were still riding on that amazing 2006 wave. But they're not. I can still hope though.

You know a band is fucking terrible when it's hardcore fans are scrambling for information about a fucking manager's kids. I mean really? Is it that fucking pitiful? GNR is obviously no example for how a band should be. I like the Black Crowes better anyways. GNR should be following their example.

That's my two cents though.

[Jakey Styley]

I think if you consider Chinese Democracy a total commercial failure then you're painfully unaware of the state of rock music and its' popularity compared to 10-20 years ago.

The 14 million argument doesn't work because it was spent over 10 years. By the time it got to its release, album sales and rock music had died out. You're determining your expectations based off of what it "should" have sold in like, 2002.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Jakey Styley

[bacardimayne]

I really hate Lenny when he just comes into a thread and tries to win arguments by being as British as possible. Awesome other than that though.

[Guest cbgnr666]

I havn't heard Estranged once on the radio.Gnr's greatest song.imo.Must be forgotten.

I've heard it on radio multiple times actually but the fact is it's a near 10 minute song so it's not gonna be on radio often if at all so your attempt to make a condescending point falls incredibly flat. Nice try though. The 4 minute singles from CD nobody gives a fuck about let alone the other songs on the album. Hence no airplay whatsoever.

I've heard November Rain on the radio probably a thousand times,thats close to a 10 minute song.And the Cd songs have had some airplay.As far as Estranged I have honestly not heard it in 20 years on the radio and just pointed to it to show how a song which is arguably alot of gnr fans favorite song doesn't receive radio play.It's still a great song regardless.

Edited January 12, 2014 by cbgnr666

[Chewbacca]

I've used this analogy before:

ChiDem was a success in the same way that The Phantom Menance was a success.

ChiDem sold a large number, esp in an era where album sales are paltry, due to streaming or downloading (both legal and illegal).

But, ChiDem was a disappointment to the pre-existing fanbase, just like Phantom Menace was.

The difference here is that Axl isn't gonna release any more music. And he's not gonna sell GNR to Disney either

Never say never, he's already called Mickey Mouse and we have this:

Guns has an unhealthy connection with Disney.

We're like halfway there.