Is it really possible to unbiasedly gauge CD's success, or lack thereof, by simply looking at album sales?

[Bards]

I think if you consider Chinese Democracy a total commercial failure then you're painfully unaware of the state of rock music and its' popularity compared to 10-20 years ago.

The 14 million argument doesn't work because it was spent over 10 years. By the time it got to its release, album sales and rock music had died out. You're determining your expectations based off of what it "should" have sold in like, 2002.

What does it matter how long the money was spent over? It was still spent. The fact that Axl waited so long to put it out that market conditions had changed doesn't give him a pass.

CD *was* a total commercial failure. If you're denying that then you're "painfully unaware" of how to run a business. It's not just posters here that think CD underperformed. If you think UMG was happy with the final result, I don't know what to tell you.

I like you as a poster but you're REALLY far off the mark here.

[axldoyle]

Chinese was doomed from the start, whether you think it's a good album or not it had to live up to the success of the old line up, given the fact that it took so much time to be released and that it was released through a second rate distributor then it had no chance. It was only released due to the leaks, Axl wanted to create music and he did, he knew all along that without the old members his work would be shunned and laughed at no matter how good it was, we all know that another original guns album would have led to nothing special. The members wanted to go separate directions and instead of Chinese with its disjointed tracklist we would have got another album with a tracklist that was just as disjointed, any snakepit style songs would have felt empty, any punk songs would have felt behind their time, Axl's ballads would feel half hearted and Matt Sourm's drumming would still be shit.

How could this band have won? If they recreate AFD they would have caused chaos and if they released an industrial album they would have been shunned for not having that classic sound, so they released something that is almost half way between the illusions material and an evolved sound, maybe a trilogy of albums would have done the chinese lineup more justice. I personally still listen to the album and I go through phases of liking each cluster of songs, its almost like having 3 ep's within an album its great.

[axldoyle]

Chinese was doomed from the start, whether you think it's a good album or not it had to live up to the success of the old line up, given the fact that it took so much time to be released and that it was released through a second rate distributor then it had no chance. It was only released due to the leaks, Axl wanted to create music and he did, he knew all along that without the old members his work would be shunned and laughed at no matter how good it was, we all know that another original guns album would have led to nothing special. The members wanted to go separate directions and instead of Chinese with its disjointed tracklist we would have got another album with a tracklist that was just as disjointed, any snakepit style songs would have felt empty, any punk songs would have felt behind their time, Axl's ballads would feel half hearted and Matt Sourm's drumming would still be shit.

How could this band have won? If they recreate AFD they would have caused chaos and if they released an industrial album they would have been shunned for not having that classic sound, so they released something that is almost half way between the illusions material and an evolved sound, maybe a trilogy of albums would have done the chinese lineup more justice. I personally still listen to the album and I go through phases of liking each cluster of songs, its almost like having 3 ep's within an album its great.

I even gave scraped a listen today, the song has actually grown on me recently, the way the vocals switch is great, the start is still really poor though

[Roush]

Only GN'R forum diehards keep picking at this. The record came out 5 years ago. Look, either you like the record or don't. Let it lie.

[wasted]

When I listen to radio they tend to play the hits from most bands. Thats why I dont listen to muxh radio.

[classicrawker]

Only GN'R forum diehards keep picking at this. The record came out 5 years ago. Look, either you like the record or don't. Let it lie.

+1............only diehards who refuse to accept the fact that the record came and went and nobody other then them gives a shit about it anymore.....it is OOP in the U.S. now which should tell them that ship has sailed.....time for Axl to release new music............

[bacardimayne]

it is OOP in the U.S. now which should tell them that ship has sailed.....

They printed 15 million copies on day 1. Of course it's out of print.

[BIack Sabbath]

ing

it is OOP in the U.S. now which should tell them that ship has sailed.....

They printed 15 million copies on day 1. Of course it's out of print.

Is there anywhere one can order a copy of the album? I'd like to add 4 more cds and 2 more vinyls to my collection. Just in case someone were to ever break in to my own and steal my copies. Placing them in a safety deposit box at my local bank seems like a logical move. If anyone knows how to transfer to 8 track, please PM me. It's always been a dream of mine to own this gem on 8-track.

Edited January 13, 2014 by BIack Sabbath

[classicrawker]

it is OOP in the U.S. now which should tell them that ship has sailed.....

They printed 15 million copies on day 1. Of course it's out of print.

more like 1.2-1.6 million depending on which story you believe.......Best Buy sold about 750K here in the U.S. and dumped the rest to the Dollar and other salvage stores..................if people still gave a shit you would still be able to get a copy through normal record stores

[BIack Sabbath]

I'll never understand how one can gauge the success of an album by the number of people that enjoyed it. Just doesn't seem right.

[classicrawker]

I'll never understand how one can gauge the success of an album by the number of people that enjoyed it. Just doesn't seem right.

As long as you enjoy it does it really matter who else does which is why these arguments are a bit silly IMHO............

[Dan H.]

I think if you consider Chinese Democracy a total commercial failure then you're painfully unaware of the state of rock music and its' popularity compared to 10-20 years ago.

The 14 million argument doesn't work because it was spent over 10 years. By the time it got to its release, album sales and rock music had died out. You're determining your expectations based off of what it "should" have sold in like, 2002.

Well, it sure wasn't a commercial failure , but it wasn't a success either

[Intercourse]

CD by its very development and delivery will ensure that opinions will be many but few unbiased.

(For me Gilby Clarke summed up CD perfectly - about as unbiased as I've heard considering all that happened to him with GNR).

I think comparing it to how Contraband did is one way to gauge "success" for obvious reasons of band members, public perception, place in history etc.

Contraband wiped the floor with CD. But ultimately, what does that mean? Very little really. VR are dead and GNR are a cabaret band.

No winners here.

[Rovim]

CD by its very development and delivery will ensure that opinions will be many but few unbiased.

(For me Gilby Clarke summed up CD perfectly - about as unbiased as I've heard considering all that happened to him with GNR).

I think comparing it to how Contraband did is one way to gauge "success" for obvious reasons of band members, public perception, place in history etc.

Contraband wiped the floor with CD. But ultimately, what does that mean? Very little really. VR are dead and GNR are a cabaret band.

No winners here.

I don't think Contraband wiped the floor with CD. It sold more in the states, and won grammys, and I really enjoy listening to it, but Gn'R is still alive and Chinese sold 3 million copies which is respectable. It's also a much better album imo.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Contraband had moments of very good (fall to pieces, slither, set me free), but the filler on that album is absolutly forgetable imo. I do not consider it better than CD, not as a whole, no way. It may have one the battle on the charts, because Slither and Fall to pieces actually crossed over. But as a complete work, it is a very uninspired and bland album imo. Which is exactly how I felt about the band in general. They tried too hard to be a "modern" rock band imo. If they just wrote riff rock it may have worked better. Which I think Slash would agree with, since his post VR stuff has been more of a return to riff rock.

[dalsh327]

Contraband had moments of very good (fall to pieces, slither, set me free), but the filler on that album is absolutly forgetable imo. I do not consider it better than CD, not as a whole, no way. It may have one the battle on the charts, because Slither and Fall to pieces actually crossed over. But as a complete work, it is a very uninspired and bland album imo. Which is exactly how I felt about the band in general. They tried too hard to be a "modern" rock band imo. If they just wrote riff rock it may have worked better. Which I think Slash would agree with, since his post VR stuff has been more of a return to riff rock.

It did come off as Slash, Duff, and Matt trying to appease Scott in writing STP-like music, esp. after what Scott said about Slash's tape. Same tape Axl heard that caused Slash to quit? Maybe, that's probably something Matt and Duff could answer if Slash or Axl won't.

[Bards]

CD by its very development and delivery will ensure that opinions will be many but few unbiased.

(For me Gilby Clarke summed up CD perfectly - about as unbiased as I've heard considering all that happened to him with GNR).

I think comparing it to how Contraband did is one way to gauge "success" for obvious reasons of band members, public perception, place in history etc.

Contraband wiped the floor with CD. But ultimately, what does that mean? Very little really. VR are dead and GNR are a cabaret band.

No winners here.

I don't think Contraband wiped the floor with CD. It sold more in the states, and won grammys, and I really enjoy listening to it, but Gn'R is still alive and Chinese sold 3 million copies which is respectable. It's also a much better album imo.

Commercially, Contraband was markedly more successful than CD using just about any performance metric you choose.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Despite CD's flaws, I find it to be a far more interesting listening experience than VR or Slash's solo albums. Slash's first solo album would be 2nd, with Contrband being 3rd. Like I said before, VR did manage to crossover with Slither and Fall to pieces, but that album is full of filler. I know some would argue the same about CD, but CD's filler is unique and even interesting, much like classic gnr's filler imo. Where Contraband's filler all sorta sounds the same. At least the songs on CD sound different, not more of the same.

[Guest Len B'stard]

I really hate Lenny when he just comes into a thread and tries to win arguments by being as British as possible. Awesome other than that though.

Where did i do that? Reading over my posts in this thread they sound more American than anything. There's literally not one word of Brit specific language.

Edited January 13, 2014 by sugaraylen

[Apollo]

Contraband had moments of very good (fall to pieces, slither, set me free), but the filler on that album is absolutly forgetable imo. I do not consider it better than CD, not as a whole, no way. It may have one the battle on the charts, because Slither and Fall to pieces actually crossed over. But as a complete work, it is a very uninspired and bland album imo. Which is exactly how I felt about the band in general. They tried too hard to be a "modern" rock band imo. If they just wrote riff rock it may have worked better. Which I think Slash would agree with, since his post VR stuff has been more of a return to riff rock.

I agree with pretty much what you say, though I preface my agreement with a caveat.

I found VR extremely boring. Though I though Fall To Pieces was a pos song, with no feeling and cheesy lyrics.

And I think CD was 10000 times better than either VR album.

BUT........I can also admit that the rock public disagrees with my feelings. And that's perfectly OK.

Looking at the two bands without personal bias - VR (or Slash, if you will) was more successful than GnR (Or Axl, post break-up).

Two albums to one

Commercial success

Critical success

Communication with fans (music videos, interviews, etc)

Taking personal bias away, VR wins all those categories.

I personally love GnR and Axl a million times more than VR and Slash. But only the true real fan-boys can say that Axl/GnR has been more successful than Slash/VR with a straight face.

Tombraider - great question and it's a question that people have been asking for decades. How do you measure success. I think the real answer is that it depends on if you are talking about an album you love or an album you hate. Album sales matter IF your favorite album sold a lot of copies. If your fav album didn't sell a lot of copies, then sales totals don't matter. Example:

Have you ever heard this conversation: Appetite sold 25 million copies. Well, so did Justin Bieber - so what's your point? Nope.

But you have heard this one. CD sold 3.5 million copies - was it a failure? Well, Justin Bieber sold 10 million albums so does that mean Bieber is the best ever? No, album sales don't matter.

People brag about how many albums Appetite and Illusions sold. But when CD is brought up.......then album sales don't matter.

In terms of album sales, critical success, producing hits or songs that will stand the test of time (jungle is still used at sporting events, SCOM/PC still voted in top 20 rock songs of all time lists).....then no, CD was not a real success. Especially factoring in how much money the album cost, plus having the name Guns n Roses behind it, Axl wanting to blow Appetite away, and following up GnR's prior work. Add in those factors and it's ridiculous to say the album was a success. For me personally it was everything I hoped it would be. But in terms of the rest of the world? No. It clearly wasn't a success.

[wasted]

In comparison GNRs hayday CD isnt a success. But sometimes a walk is as good as a hit.

Of course this has nothing to do with artist satisfaction or personal preference.

[Bards]

In comparison GNRs hayday CD isnt a success. But sometimes a walk is as good as a hit.

That's about as damning by faint praise as one can get.

[wasted]

In comparison GNRs hayday CD isnt a success. But sometimes a walk is as good as a hit.

That's about as damning by faint praise as one can get.

AFD/UYI were like the best selling albums of their time?

CD wasn't. I don't think that makes it a complete failure and sales were kind of good for its time. The songs have been used throughout touring and it's not like they get booed off stage. There's not many bands hitting home runs this far into their careers.

Some bands make bank, Guns N Roses make history.

[magisme]

The only history CD will have made is as a punchline.

[Bards]

In comparison GNRs hayday CD isnt a success. But sometimes a walk is as good as a hit.

That's about as damning by faint praise as one can get.

AFD/UYI were like the best selling albums of their time?

CD wasn't. I don't think that makes it a complete failure and sales were kind of good for its time. The songs have been used throughout touring and it's not like they get booed off stage. There's not many bands hitting home runs this far into their careers.

Look at the modifiers you have to use. I'm not telling anyone to not like the album, but to call it anything other than a commercial failure is willful ignorance.

Some bands make bank, Guns N Roses make history.

What magisme said.