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The GnR songwriting process - other than lyrics what did Axl do?


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And by the way...this question is not intended in any way to diminish Axl's contributions. It's an honest question from someone who is not a musician and has no idea how the creative/songwriting process within a band takes place.

Take AFD for example...I guess I just always assumed that Slash/Izzy wrote the guitar parts, Duff came up with the bass lines, Adler added drums and then Axl wrote lyrics and sang...not necessarily in that order, (and I realize the others sometimes contributed lyrics as well). But then I read/hear about how Axl came up with "melodies" and of course he played some piano on UYI.

So I'm just curious how that creative dynamic worked, and if Axl contributed more than just lyrics/vocals, some basic melodies, and piano. Did he ever come up with guitar riffs and play them for Slash, did he ever make suggestions on Slash's solos, etc.? ...or were the lines clearly drawn between who did what and there was no crossing over.

And, as a follow-up question...did that change on CD...did Axl have more say and input into the guitar/bass/drum parts, or was his contribution similar to what it was when working with Slash/Duff/Adler?

Thanks!

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And by the way...this question is not intended in any way to diminish Axl's contributions. It's an honest question from someone who is not a musician and has no idea how the creative/songwriting process within a band takes place.

Take AFD for example...I guess I just always assumed that Slash/Izzy wrote the guitar parts, Duff came up with the bass lines, Adler added drums and then Axl wrote lyrics and sang...not necessarily in that order, (and I realize the others sometimes contributed lyrics as well). But then I read/hear about how Axl came up with "melodies" and of course he played some piano on UYI.

So I'm just curious how that creative dynamic worked, and if Axl contributed more than just lyrics/vocals, some basic melodies, and piano. Did he ever come up with guitar riffs and play them for Slash, did he ever make suggestions on Slash's solos, etc.? ...or were the lines clearly drawn between who did what and there was no crossing over.

And, as a follow-up question...did that change on CD...did Axl have more say and input into the guitar/bass/drum parts, or was his contribution similar to what it was when working with Slash/Duff/Adler?

Thanks!

Axl is the Maestro, and everything follows from there

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Axl began learning more about the guitar and other instruments during UYI, so he was beginning to contribute more to that aspect as the band was falling apart. I think Slash once said Axl is the most complete musician in the band, and a lot better at guitar than you would think.

With Slash I think Axl tried to avoid stepping on his toes. He felt Slash was really good at what he did and there was no need to tell him how to play what parts.

The band was just really good together. They all brought in something different, and it worked. Obviously Axl and Slash played larger roles, but I think when they were at their best is when they focused on their job in the band and got it done.

Another aspect is they inspired each other either by having inspiring piano parts, or lyrics that led to a guitar rift. A guitar part that inspired Axl.

I would give Axl's contribution about 45% because I wouldn't want to short change Slash's equally contribution.

Now for CD I would say it was about 70% Axl. I think he played a larger role in the keyboard music, the guitar, and his lyrics and vocals of course were there. Bucket I'm sure played a big role but I am unaware just how big so I won't comment on that.

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And by the way...this question is not intended in any way to diminish Axl's contributions. It's an honest question from someone who is not a musician and has no idea how the creative/songwriting process within a band takes place.

Take AFD for example...I guess I just always assumed that Slash/Izzy wrote the guitar parts, Duff came up with the bass lines, Adler added drums and then Axl wrote lyrics and sang...not necessarily in that order, (and I realize the others sometimes contributed lyrics as well). But then I read/hear about how Axl came up with "melodies" and of course he played some piano on UYI.

So I'm just curious how that creative dynamic worked, and if Axl contributed more than just lyrics/vocals, some basic melodies, and piano. Did he ever come up with guitar riffs and play them for Slash, did he ever make suggestions on Slash's solos, etc.? ...or were the lines clearly drawn between who did what and there was no crossing over.

And, as a follow-up question...did that change on CD...did Axl have more say and input into the guitar/bass/drum parts, or was his contribution similar to what it was when working with Slash/Duff/Adler?

Thanks!

Axl is the Maestro, and everything follows from there

Curious as to why you say that?

It seems like most of the Appetite songs were basic creations from Slash and Izzy, who worked through them musically with Duff. And Axl then added lyrics.

On Illusions, it would seem that Axl was a little more creative and was involved in creating the actual songs from scratch.

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The way you say "just added lyrics" is weird.

He did the lyrics and vocal melody, which is really a big deal.

I agree...that's why I prefaced my question with this comment..."this question is not intended in any way to diminish Axl's contributions".

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The way you say "just added lyrics" is weird.

He did the lyrics and vocal melody, which is really a big deal.

I second this. Coming up with decent lyrics is one thing but even if you have a complete song instrumentally, you have to have a really good ear to hear all the parts and be able to compliment them with an entire melody. Many singers aren't talented enough and basically sing along with the lead guitar, with a few embellishments here and there. Not to say Axl never did this, but he often times drew from the bass line as much as he did the lead and he did a fantastic job of really blending it all with his own contributions. He also has a real knack for dynamics and playing with technique.

In addition, I think he is a great pianist. I could totally listen to an entirely "Axl on the Piano" album.

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And by the way...this question is not intended in any way to diminish Axl's contributions. It's an honest question from someone who is not a musician and has no idea how the creative/songwriting process within a band takes place.

Take AFD for example...I guess I just always assumed that Slash/Izzy wrote the guitar parts, Duff came up with the bass lines, Adler added drums and then Axl wrote lyrics and sang...not necessarily in that order, (and I realize the others sometimes contributed lyrics as well). But then I read/hear about how Axl came up with "melodies" and of course he played some piano on UYI.

So I'm just curious how that creative dynamic worked, and if Axl contributed more than just lyrics/vocals, some basic melodies, and piano. Did he ever come up with guitar riffs and play them for Slash, did he ever make suggestions on Slash's solos, etc.? ...or were the lines clearly drawn between who did what and there was no crossing over.

And, as a follow-up question...did that change on CD...did Axl have more say and input into the guitar/bass/drum parts, or was his contribution similar to what it was when working with Slash/Duff/Adler?

Thanks!

Axl is the Maestro, and everything follows from there

Curious as to why you say that?

It seems like most of the Appetite songs were basic creations from Slash and Izzy, who worked through them musically with Duff. And Axl then added lyrics.

On Illusions, it would seem that Axl was a little more creative and was involved in creating the actual songs from scratch.

Curious as to why you say that? It is very well known that Slash himself said that Axl was over 50% responsible for Appetite, as testified to in a court of law.
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I don't remember if I read it on Slash's or Duff's book - though I'm pretty sure it was Slash's - that the orchestra you hear on November Rain is all synth...thought of, worked and orchestrated by Axl. I mean, the guy clearly has a huge grasp on music and composition, more than sometimes we give him credit for.

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I think you could describe Axl as the 'director'. Probably in the early days he worked mostly by 'feel' as in "This isn't tight enough" or "We need a stronger melody" as well as making direct contributions. By the UYI stage he was a more skilled musician and was probably being more direct and technical with his instructions\collaborating. Without being a fly on the wall during writing sessions it's difficult to say exactly what Axl contributed but everyone who has ever worked with Axl has said he is a top quality musician with a surprising amount of technical knowledge. Didn't Slash say in his book that Axl contributed to the guitar solos? I remember Brain May saying that Axl cut and pasted his solo on Catcher in the Rye, so Axl basically took what May had played and rewrote it.

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On use your illusion was saying how he gave feedback like hold that note longer. That is for his songs where he said each note has to be perfect. Estranged, Nov Rain, breakdown come to mind. SOD also example. Axl wrote Dead horse and Shotgun blues, right Next door to hell too.

I'm interested in how vocal melodies work out. Whether they follow the cords or do they guide a lot of what happens.

What was weird was that Axl said it was weird when Slash and Izzy brought fully formed songs in that he just had to sing on. Which suggests AFD was way more organic. Guys working on the songs together. Playing them live before recording them.

It seems that Axl really wrote SOD, Twat, catcher, Madagascar, TIL, Prostitute. Like he brought these songs in. Whereas Finck brought Better in. Shacklers is Bucket with Axl singing.

But I've always wondered about the order of things. It seem natural to me to have some lyrics. And some idea about what kind of song it should be. So then you'd pair it with music that matches it. It could be other way round or mixing it up.

So then it's like who is in control of the creative process. To me that.seems like Axl. He moulds the riffs and solos with his vocals so that it works. Sometimes it must not work so they drop it and move on to something.

Edited by wasted
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Axl testified Slash calculated 41%. Not Slash. At least as far as I'm aware.

Not saying it's bullshit or anything...who knows? Just saying is all.

Yeah, 41%. Damn faulty memory, I just knew it was a majority. Either way, I'm pretty sure it would have been pretty damn easy for Steven's lawyers to pick apart and try Axl for perjury for if it wasn't true. :shrugs:
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Referring to what was done in the 2000's, did say once something like "I could sit on my ass and write poetry all day long", but then the lyrics/song "sound like something from the 80's" (now I'm remember the quote less and less), so now "music parts are written and then I try and find lyrics for it".

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Appetite was written different from Illusion. On Appetite, usually an 'idea' triggered a song when two or more members of the band were together, often a Slash riff (Jungle, Sweet Child), once, a drunken sing song (Nightrain). Paradise City was triggered by Slash singing the chorus in a van as a joke! This idea would then be developed and fleshed out by two-four songwriters and result in the song we have today - Axl's main contributions were lyrics and vocal melody. (Axl was an instrumentalist at this stage and he was working on a solo composed song [November Rain] but this was not realised until Illusion. With the Appetite stuff, his contributions were non-instrumental.) The three exceptions to this are Think About You, basically a completed Stradlin song that had been brought in early in the band's genesis, Anything Goes, which was a old Hollywood Rose song that had been dusted off with new lyrics, and It's So Easy, which was a completed song which Duff had co-wrote with Arkeen.

Illusion was different for a number of reasions. Firstly, Axl had learnt a bit of basic guitar which meant he could write songs like Dead Horse. Secondly, the piano ballads were really arriving now. In a nutshell, Illusion is much more an, 'Axl album', i.e. it contains a lot of solo Axl numbers (November Rain, Breakdown, Estranged). Thirdly - and this is the most crucial difference - the band were no longer writing together. Izzy sent a DAT of his songs into the studio and - according to Axl - could not be bothered to work on them. Slash sent a DAT of his ideas to Axl and the two worked over them over the phone (I think this contained the great Axl/Slash numbers, Locomotive, Coma etc)! It was a whole different approach from the democratic and organic method used on Appetite.

There are number of reasons for this. Firstly, 1985-7 the band were continously in each other's presence, whether in the 'Gardner studio' or the various houses they lived in together (and trashed). 1989-91 they all had seperate houses. Secondly, Izzy had withdrawn because he did not want to be in the presence of the drugs and booze. You could also mention Axl's ego and the drugs which meant, when the Appetite tour ended, Slash, Steven and Duff had each withdrawn into their little worlds. It was basically impossible to reassemble the band again in one room together after 1988. There were a few failed attempts such as the illfated Chicago sessions.

Edited by DieselDaisy
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Guest Len B'stard

I really love this idea of a band in a room...someone has an idea, a riff, a chorus or whatever...and the rest is kinda built up by just jamming on it together, it seems to be so much more fruitful as a creative endeavour, see Exile on Main Street.

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As a guitarist I can say that when someone else writes melody and lyrics to your music, it's no longer just your song. Sure maybe Slash or Izzy came up with the music, but what Axl added can not be over looked. It is a very rare gift that he has.Thats why its called collaberation.

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Yes, so many songs were written at Gardner which was basically a small garage in a seedy back alley way. The band rehearsed there but Axl, Slash and Izzy ended up sleeping there also because they were effectively homeless. They used to have parties in the alleyway through the night and sell knocked off beer. I think they were also pimping underaged girls from Gardner which is why the Police busted them and they had to flee the place. Not a nice bunch of individuals, GN'R. They were a horrible nasty bunch really.

This was the place where Rocket Queen, Paradise City, Nightrain and My Michelle were written.

Just one more thing. Another source of songs were the Hell House demos. Axl, Duff and Izzy at various times wrote songs with West Arkeen and his biker pal, Del James, at their house which they called the 'Hell House' (The black and white picture of the band in Appetite is of the porch of the Hellhouse). Anyhow, these songs were demoed (with a drum machine) and some of them ended up on GN'R albums (It's So Easy, Garden, Bad Obsession, Yesterdays), some of them remain unreleased (Crash Diet, Sentimental Movie).

Edited by DieselDaisy
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Guest Len B'stard

All the great bands of our times have this prodigious period, The Stones, The Clash, The Beatles, where songs are just fallin' out of their arses and it comes from this idea of living together/playing together all the fuckin' time and writing songs all in together too. Thats how you have your Sandinistas and Exiles, these massive double/triple albums that were all knocked together in this short space of time, i love those albums, those sorts of albums are brilliant.

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