The GnR songwriting process - other than lyrics what did Axl do?

[DieselDaisy]

Besides those, Perfect Crime, which was played live in 1986, and The Garden.

[Apollo]

Diesel you clearly win this topic.

It all comes down to how people perceive or want to look at it.

If Slash and Duff are jamming together and Slash comes up with a cool guitar part and Duff adds some bass to it, then they have Izzy and Steven come in and add their two cents, Slash adds a solo to it, then Axl takes that song and makes suggestions on a melody and writes all the lyrics............then who created the song? Axl did all the lyrics and helped flush out the melody, does that mean it's an Axl song and everybody else just helped out?

Smooth, I've been coaching youth sports for two decades. If you are a sports fans you will understand this analogy. I was coaching a game against the state's number one ranked team. In the bottom of the 7th inning we were losing by a run with two outs. A kid (player X) doubled home a run to tie the game and send it to extra innings. In the bottom of the 9th inning, same scenario. Two outs, trailing by a run - and this time a kid (player Y) hit a double that drove in two runs to win the game in dramatic fashion. The following day in the newspaper, guess who got the headlines? Player X and player Y. What does this have to do with Axl/Slash/Duff/Izzy and adler?

In both the 7th and 9th innings, before the "big" hits happened, one kid (player B) also hit with two outs. In fact, both times he had two strikes on him. So twice we were literally ONE strike away from losing. Both times this kid kept the game alive by hitting a single. In either case if this kid gets one more strike on him the game is over and player X and Y don't have a chance to be the hero.

Player X and Y both got their name in the headline of the newspaper, one of them got their picture in the paper. Player B? Didn't even get his name mentioned. X and Y were hailed as heroes. But without B's two clutch hits, X and Y never even get a chance to perform.

So Axl might get 41% of the writing credit for Appetite. But if Slash doesn't come up with the SCOM or PC riffs, then Axl doesn't have a chance to work his magic on those two songs.

With that said, I'll take CD over anything that Slash, Duff, Izzy and Adler has created and released since GnR. I just think Appetite, Lies and Illusions were sooooooo amazing because of the team-work of all the guys involved. When you start breaking down songs to what percentage each guy gets credit for.....well, that's about as un-rock-n-roll as it gets. In a band everybody contributes to a song. And when each guy's strengths works well with other guy's strengths, sometimes you get pure magic.

Axl hit a grand slam home run. But he wouldn't have been in the situation to do so without Slash, Duff and Izzy loading the bases for him.

[Axlspants]

I thought duff wrote lyrics for its so easy. And I'm sure izzy wrote a few lyrics too maybe think about you, dust and bones.

Guns n roses has always been about contributions from many people, even none band members like west arkeen.

[foghat43]

Speaking of sports analogies...Axl strikes me as the Jerry Jones of the music industry with the current GnR lineup being the Dallas Cowboys. Both Jerry and Axl have huge egos and are control freaks with dictator like personalities. Both Jerry and Axl have an over-hyped and over-rated roster...there is without a doubt some above average talent on the roster, but the results at best are mediocre/average...8-8 seasons and CD...and yet the franchise is still going strong and bringing in lots of $$$. Both Jerry and Axl live off of the brand name and past glories from the 90s. Every year there is huge anticipation by the fans...will this be the year they finally get back to the Super Bowl, will Axl release his long awaited masterpeice...but it never happens. Jerry has Romo, Axl has DJ (or whoever)...but Romo aint Aikman or Staubach, and DJ (or whoever) aint Slash.

[DieselDaisy]

There was a little bit of, what I call 'White Album syndrome' creeping in on the Illusions. What I mean by that is, the Beatles' White Album has often been described as ‘more a collection of solo tracks played by one or more Beatles’ as opposed to a genuine ’Beatles album’. There is an element of that on the Illusions, so, You Ain't the First, Double Talkin' Jive, and Pretty Tied Up are just 'Stradlin'; November Rain, Dead Hose, Shotgun Blues, Breakdown and Estranged, 'Rose'. As I said before, circa 1989-90 the band members all retreated into their separate worlds and ceased to hang out and write together. I think this was about the time Axl began to acquire his 'hangers on' and he sort of distanced himself from the band. The other four members were all in their separate 'drug zones' and when Izzy got sober, he distanced himself from the band precisely to avoid the other's behaviour. So the band sort of, fractured circa 1989-90. The ‘Mr Brownstone’ speech at LA Coliseum, you could argue, was the beginning of the end.

I think - and this is just a generalised observation of mine - there was a slight change in the dynamic of the band also with Stradlin dropping out. I think Slash played a more prominent role by collaborating with Axl on the sort of progressive metal-influenced material Axl desired for those two albums. It is impossible to imagine Izzy wanting to have a big role on Locomotive, Coma, Estranged et al. - I recall that slightly critical comment by Izzy that you needed a chord sheet on stage to play the ten minute songs. It is no coincidence that the new’ songs on Illusion are the ones Axl and Slash (and occasionally McKagan) were working on - I think Coma was about the last song Axl put lyrics to. You could actually argue that this was befitting Slash’s media profile, ‘Axl and Slash’ being the big centre point, Izzy being lower key. In the early days you could argue that Stradlin/Rose were dominant, a holdover from Hollywood Rose. It is no coincidence that most of the Stradlin/Rose songs on Illusion are old songs (e.g. You Could Be Mine, Don’t Cry).

The interesting thing about Slash was, it was he, not Axl, who recruited Sorum, recruited Clarke, put together the Illusion stage show with Teddy, Tracy and Roberta and the horns. Slash was like band director. I think Axl was happy for Slash to do this as the two of them wanted the same thing, to do big shows. Izzy of course had no interest in doing big shows.

So there was a slight change in dynamic, from Stradlin/Rose, to, Slash/Rose.

[Damn_Smooth]

Groghan- I don't see where you're going with that. Nowhere did I say that anybody wasn't important. You implied that Slash and Izzy were majorly responsible for Appetite, and Axl just wrote his lyrics over their songs. I questioned how you came to that conclusion when Slash himself gave Axl 41% credit for it. Of course the rest of the bands' contributions were great, and it would be nowhere near the same album without any of them; but it seems to me that you're trying to downplay Axl for some unknown reason.

[Mysteron]

And by the way...this question is not intended in any way to diminish Axl's contributions. It's an honest question from someone who is not a musician and has no idea how the creative/songwriting process within a band takes place.

Take AFD for example...I guess I just always assumed that Slash/Izzy wrote the guitar parts, Duff came up with the bass lines, Adler added drums and then Axl wrote lyrics and sang...not necessarily in that order, (and I realize the others sometimes contributed lyrics as well). But then I read/hear about how Axl came up with "melodies" and of course he played some piano on UYI.

So I'm just curious how that creative dynamic worked, and if Axl contributed more than just lyrics/vocals, some basic melodies, and piano. Did he ever come up with guitar riffs and play them for Slash, did he ever make suggestions on Slash's solos, etc.? ...or were the lines clearly drawn between who did what and there was no crossing over.

And, as a follow-up question...did that change on CD...did Axl have more say and input into the guitar/bass/drum parts, or was his contribution similar to what it was when working with Slash/Duff/Adler?

Thanks!

Axl is the Maestro, and everything follows from there

Curious as to why you say that?

It seems like most of the Appetite songs were basic creations from Slash and Izzy, who worked through them musically with Duff. And Axl then added lyrics.

On Illusions, it would seem that Axl was a little more creative and was involved in creating the actual songs from scratch.

If you ever sit with creative musicians, they can blow out to you many different riffs, ideas etc...

You need someone with an ear that can do the wheat/chaff thing

Enter Axl

[Iron MikeyJ]

And by the way...this question is not intended in any way to diminish Axl's contributions. It's an honest question from someone who is not a musician and has no idea how the creative/songwriting process within a band takes place.

Take AFD for example...I guess I just always assumed that Slash/Izzy wrote the guitar parts, Duff came up with the bass lines, Adler added drums and then Axl wrote lyrics and sang...not necessarily in that order, (and I realize the others sometimes contributed lyrics as well). But then I read/hear about how Axl came up with "melodies" and of course he played some piano on UYI.

So I'm just curious how that creative dynamic worked, and if Axl contributed more than just lyrics/vocals, some basic melodies, and piano. Did he ever come up with guitar riffs and play them for Slash, did he ever make suggestions on Slash's solos, etc.? ...or were the lines clearly drawn between who did what and there was no crossing over.

And, as a follow-up question...did that change on CD...did Axl have more say and input into the guitar/bass/drum parts, or was his contribution similar to what it was when working with Slash/Duff/Adler?

Thanks!

Axl is the Maestro, and everything follows from there

Curious as to why you say that?

It seems like most of the Appetite songs were basic creations from Slash and Izzy, who worked through them musically with Duff. And Axl then added lyrics.

On Illusions, it would seem that Axl was a little more creative and was involved in creating the actual songs from scratch.

If you ever sit with creative musicians, they can blow out to you many different riffs, ideas etc...

You need someone with an ear that can do the wheat/chaff thing

Enter Axl

This.

Axl and Izzy were the main songwriters, you need them. By songwriters I mean they take the music and turn into a song. I don't think Slash is a very good songwriter, he comes up with great music yes. But not a songsmith. Duff has the ability to a certain extent, but much lower than Axl and Izzy. Steven probably has no songwriting ability, or none worth really talking about.

[Val22]

Axl will dance around the studio and then yell at everyone when he doesn't like something.

Then he will throw shit and storm at the door! lol He will also call everyone else losers!

[Apollo]

Groghan- I don't see where you're going with that. Nowhere did I say that anybody wasn't important. You implied that Slash and Izzy were majorly responsible for Appetite, and Axl just wrote his lyrics over their songs. I questioned how you came to that conclusion when Slash himself gave Axl 41% credit for it. Of course the rest of the bands' contributions were great, and it would be nowhere near the same album without any of them; but it seems to me that you're trying to downplay Axl for some unknown reason.

I apologize if I phrased my comment so it appeared that I was downgrading Axl's contributions.

Without Axl's voice and songwriting abilities, then GnR would have been LA Guns or Velvet Revolver or Warrant or Mr Big or Tesla, etc. Solid bands that had a couple good songs and a little bit of short term success. With Axl, GnR was the biggest rock band of the 80s and 90s and will go down as one of the 10 greatest rock bands of all time.

I've said it many times on here that Axl is the best rock singer of my generation and one of the 10 greatest of all time.

I guess I need to figure out this internet rock forum thing. If I give too detailed of answers, people bash me for writing walls of text and trying to force my opinion as fact. If I give short quick responses, people take it to extremes and add layers to it that I didn't say. I thought somebody was downplaying the band's input and giving Axl all the credit - that's what any of my comments were about. I wasn't criticizing or bashing or downplaying Axl's roll.

YOUR statement can apply to me as well. "I never said that anybody (AXL) wasn't important."

To me, Axl was the most important band member of the classic GnR line-up. But the reason he hit a grand slam game-winning home run with Appetite, Illusions and Lies was because Duff/Slash/Izzy got hits to load the bases for him. Can DJ and Pittman team up with Axl to write an icon song or album? I don't know, we'll have to see. Can Axl do that with Slash/Duff/Izzy and Adler? Hell yes.

[Damn_Smooth]

Groghan- I don't see where you're going with that. Nowhere did I say that anybody wasn't important. You implied that Slash and Izzy were majorly responsible for Appetite, and Axl just wrote his lyrics over their songs. I questioned how you came to that conclusion when Slash himself gave Axl 41% credit for it. Of course the rest of the bands' contributions were great, and it would be nowhere near the same album without any of them; but it seems to me that you're trying to downplay Axl for some unknown reason.

I apologize if I phrased my comment so it appeared that I was downgrading Axl's contributions.

Without Axl's voice and songwriting abilities, then GnR would have been LA Guns or Velvet Revolver or Warrant or Mr Big or Tesla, etc. Solid bands that had a couple good songs and a little bit of short term success. With Axl, GnR was the biggest rock band of the 80s and 90s and will go down as one of the 10 greatest rock bands of all time.

I've said it many times on here that Axl is the best rock singer of my generation and one of the 10 greatest of all time.

I guess I need to figure out this internet rock forum thing. If I give too detailed of answers, people bash me for writing walls of text and trying to force my opinion as fact. If I give short quick responses, people take it to extremes and add layers to it that I didn't say. I thought somebody was downplaying the band's input and giving Axl all the credit - that's what any of my comments were about. I wasn't criticizing or bashing or downplaying Axl's roll.

YOUR statement can apply to me as well. "I never said that anybody (AXL) wasn't important."

To me, Axl was the most important band member of the classic GnR line-up. But the reason he hit a grand slam game-winning home run with Appetite, Illusions and Lies was because Duff/Slash/Izzy got hits to load the bases for him. Can DJ and Pittman team up with Axl to write an icon song or album? I don't know, we'll have to see. Can Axl do that with Slash/Duff/Izzy and Adler? Hell yes.

Now that was an excellent post. Damn near perfection. Well done.

[Apollo]

Groghan- I don't see where you're going with that. Nowhere did I say that anybody wasn't important. You implied that Slash and Izzy were majorly responsible for Appetite, and Axl just wrote his lyrics over their songs. I questioned how you came to that conclusion when Slash himself gave Axl 41% credit for it. Of course the rest of the bands' contributions were great, and it would be nowhere near the same album without any of them; but it seems to me that you're trying to downplay Axl for some unknown reason.

I apologize if I phrased my comment so it appeared that I was downgrading Axl's contributions.

Without Axl's voice and songwriting abilities, then GnR would have been LA Guns or Velvet Revolver or Warrant or Mr Big or Tesla, etc. Solid bands that had a couple good songs and a little bit of short term success. With Axl, GnR was the biggest rock band of the 80s and 90s and will go down as one of the 10 greatest rock bands of all time.

I've said it many times on here that Axl is the best rock singer of my generation and one of the 10 greatest of all time.

I guess I need to figure out this internet rock forum thing. If I give too detailed of answers, people bash me for writing walls of text and trying to force my opinion as fact. If I give short quick responses, people take it to extremes and add layers to it that I didn't say. I thought somebody was downplaying the band's input and giving Axl all the credit - that's what any of my comments were about. I wasn't criticizing or bashing or downplaying Axl's roll.

YOUR statement can apply to me as well. "I never said that anybody (AXL) wasn't important."

To me, Axl was the most important band member of the classic GnR line-up. But the reason he hit a grand slam game-winning home run with Appetite, Illusions and Lies was because Duff/Slash/Izzy got hits to load the bases for him. Can DJ and Pittman team up with Axl to write an icon song or album? I don't know, we'll have to see. Can Axl do that with Slash/Duff/Izzy and Adler? Hell yes.

Now that was an excellent post. Damn near perfection. Well done.

[liers]

He wrote all of madagascar.

My guess, from things I've hear from numerous places and my own opinions, is that songs are written two ways.

1. A member of the band, Izzy, Slash, Bucket, Bumble, Dj, etc presents Axl with a song they've wrote, much like Bumblefoot presented Argentinian Tango to us. Then the band write/record their parts. Drums, rhythm, bass, etc. After all that, it goes to axl, where he does vocals and production.

2. Axl writes a song, with vocals and a piano melody to show how he wants it to sound, then the band write their parts to match that sound. Piano melody is sometimes removed for heavier songs. Sometimes Axl writes the guitar parts, and probably drum parts.

[DieselDaisy]

To me Izzy Stradlin is the most important member of Guns N' Roses. His songwriting is everywhere.

[wasted]

UYI album seems like two distinct sets of songs. Old ones like Bad obsession, Don't Cry, Back off Bitch, YCBM, heavens Door something they used to do, Nov Rain even...

Then new songs like RNDTH, DUst n Bones Estranged, Locomotive, Coma, dead Horse, Shotgun, breakdown, 14 years.

Part of the problem is Nov Rain, DC, YCBM were left off AFD. Giving that album a certain focus which then got taken as the real GNR. but they actually always had diverse material. They just chose not to show that on AFD. Which I think they wanted to address first with Lies. Izzy getting to show Patience. Then Axl got to do his songs UYI. As well as Slash getting to do what he wants more. Izzy writing a lot but basically his aethestic gets pushed aside.

[RussTCB]

To me Izzy Stradlin is the most important member of Guns N' Roses. His songwriting is everywhere.

Izzy is/was a "don't know what you have til it's gone" type of deal. Even though they didn't put anything new out after he left, I still immediately noticed he was gone. I started to really dig into the linear notes and thought "Oh shit. These guys were just dealt a huge blow"

[wasted]

The thing was Slash seemed happy to continue without Izzy for the next record.

[DieselDaisy]

There was probably enough there (Axl, Slash, Duff) to salvage something from the wreckage. Afterall, Axl and Slash wrote terrific songs together without Izzy and Duff could chip in with the odd idea or two - that is actually the three members who wrote Civil War. But they sort of, didn't and Izzy's departure was followed-up by years of Axl-Slash infighting over Tobias, Snakepit and the legal stuff. I have always found it strange that Axl was so reluctant to work with Gilby also. Pawnshop Guitars has some good, 'Gunsworthy', riffs and ideas.