Were NR and Estranged compromises?

[PirateRadio]

Trying to get away from the god awful opening gig of whatever this tour is supposed to be....

These two songs are Axl's deal. Slash was against their creation as GNR songs. Did Axl compromise with Slash and afford him the lengthy time slots to perform huge, and fantastic, solo guitar parts? Don't cry is in this trilogy, but that was an older Guns song, and hence, no giant Slash solo, no synth or keyboard/piano.

Soooo Slash said to Axl, "We can put these two songs out, but I want a minute plus on November Rain, and I need to do my own thing on Estranged, or this isn't happening...." Axl makes it a point to thank Slash for Estranged in the UYI II booklet, and I think that was a tip of his hand.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Time to DIE!!!

[Gordon Comstock]

I don't think they would've done that 'I want X time', they would've done what was best for the song. They each got their own "baby" on each Illusion, I think that was the compromise.

UYI I: November Rain / Coma

UYI II: Estranged / Locomotive

[OmarBradley]

I'm pretty sure NR was written, or was an idea, at least as early as 1986. Though after I typed that, it sounds wrong, someone please correct or corroborate this.

[SlashisGOD]

I think it goes back even further to when Axl was playing with Tracii Guns. He had the opening melody but didn't know where to take it. 1984/5?

[PirateRadio]

It was an idea and a great song for sure. The demo is my favorite version. To be released as a Guns song on the mega UYIs albums....Slash had a say. That's a fact, Jack.

[axlrod]

According to Tracii Guns, former L.A. Guns guitarist and founding member, Rose had been working on the song since at least 1983. In an interview, he said the following about "November Rain":

“ When we were doing that EP for L.A. Guns, like '83? He was playing "November Rain" — and it was called "November Rain" — you know, on piano. The guitar solo is amazing. Way back then. It was the only thing he knew how to play, but it was his. He'd go, "Someday this song is gonna be really cool." And I'd go, "It's cool now." "But it's not done", you know, he used to say. And, like, anytime we'd be at a hotel or anywhere, there'd be a piano; he'd just kinda play that music. And I'd go, "When are you gonna finish that already", you know? And he'd go, "I don't know what to do with it. ”

none of the other band members had wanted to partake in the production of this song (or the other notable ballad "Estranged"). Slash and McKagan were particularly opposed to the drift to symphonic ballads, and felt their choice of more direct rock songs were being overlooked by Rose. However, Rose talked them into it over discussions at Can-Am studios (where some of the album was recorded and mixed). It should be noted that claims of such harsh musical differences were specifically disputed by Slash in his autobiography.^[2]:454

Slash states in his autobiography that an 18-minute version of "November Rain" was recorded at a session with guitarist Manny Charlton (of rock band Nazareth) in 1986, before the recording sessions for Appetite for Destruction began.^[2]:151

Slash has said that the solo he played in the album version of the song (it is unclear which) was the same solo he played to the song when he heard it for the first time.^[2]:316 The solo is strikingly similar to the one found in "Best Of My Love" by Japanese artist Toshitaro (1984).

Edited March 22, 2014 by axlrod

[IncitingChaos]

I think Slash just wanted to feel like it was still a group thing. He didn't want to be stuck doing Axl's songs the rest of his career so it helped that he was able to add to the songs that Axl basically composed.

I know Slash has said that he was against songs like November Rain and Estranged, but he had to realize how amazing those songs were. I think the complexity and amazing lyrics along with the incredible piano composition helped seal Slash's approval for these songs, and the reason why he wanted to he a big part of these songs.

[PirateRadio]

According to Tracii Guns, former L.A. Guns guitarist and founding member, Rose had been working on the song since at least 1983. In an interview, he said the following about "November Rain":

“ When we were doing that EP for L.A. Guns, like '83? He was playing "November Rain" — and it was called "November Rain" — you know, on piano. The guitar solo is amazing. Way back then. It was the only thing he knew how to play, but it was his. He'd go, "Someday this song is gonna be really cool." And I'd go, "It's cool now." "But it's not done", you know, he used to say. And, like, anytime we'd be at a hotel or anywhere, there'd be a piano; he'd just kinda play that music. And I'd go, "When are you gonna finish that already", you know? And he'd go, "I don't know what to do with it. ”

none of the other band members had wanted to partake in the production of this song (or the other notable ballad "Estranged"). Slash and McKagan were particularly opposed to the drift to symphonic ballads, and felt their choice of more direct rock songs were being overlooked by Rose. However, Rose talked them into it over discussions at Can-Am studios (where some of the album was recorded and mixed). It should be noted that claims of such harsh musical differences were specifically disputed by Slash in his autobiography.^[2]:454

Slash states in his autobiography that an 18-minute version of "November Rain" was recorded at a session with guitarist Manny Charlton (of rock band Nazareth) in 1986, before the recording sessions for Appetite for Destruction began.^[2]:151

Slash has said that the solo he played in the album version of the song (it is unclear which) was the same solo he played to the song when he heard it for the first time.^[2]:316 The solo is strikingly similar to the one found in "Best Of My Love" by Japanese artist Toshitaro (1984).

What is your point?

[PirateRadio]

I think Slash just wanted to feel like it was still a group thing. He didn't want to be stuck doing Axl's songs the rest of his career so it helped that he was able to add to the songs that Axl basically composed.

I know Slash has said that he was against songs like November Rain and Estranged, but he had to realize how amazing those songs were. I think the complexity and amazing lyrics along with the incredible piano composition helped seal Slash's approval for these songs, and the reason why he wanted to he a big part of these songs.

I would agree with this if Slash ever said something like this and appeared, on camera, like he meant it. I believe that to this day, Slash doesn't like these songs. Ever since, he's never recorded or bragged about or even hinted at creating anything like these songs. It's simple, look at what Slash has written--rock songs...not too fast, not too slow, lots of soul, uh huh--and mash it up with Chinese Democracy and you have two guys who don't want to, and probably shouldn't make music together. For better or worse, one guy changed, and one guy stayed the same. I'm not gonna ask Johnny Ramone and George Jones to write music together.

[ManetsBR]

I don't think they would've done that 'I want X time', they would've done what was best for the song. They each got their own "baby" on each Illusion, I think that was the compromise.

UYI I: November Rain / Coma

UYI II: Estranged / Locomotive

Agreed. And interesting how Axl shines on Coma and Locomotive, with great lyrics and a perfect deliver, and Slash has fantastic solos on both November Rain and Estranged.

Heh, they were a good pair, man...

[Nosaj Thing]

The solo is strikingly similar to the one found in "Best Of My Love" by Japanese artist Toshitaro (1984).

Where can I find that?

[IncitingChaos]

I think Slash just wanted to feel like it was still a group thing. He didn't want to be stuck doing Axl's songs the rest of his career so it helped that he was able to add to the songs that Axl basically composed.

I know Slash has said that he was against songs like November Rain and Estranged, but he had to realize how amazing those songs were. I think the complexity and amazing lyrics along with the incredible piano composition helped seal Slash's approval for these songs, and the reason why he wanted to he a big part of these songs.

I would agree with this if Slash ever said something like this and appeared, on camera, like he meant it. I believe that to this day, Slash doesn't like these songs. Ever since, he's never recorded or bragged about or even hinted at creating anything like these songs. It's simple, look at what Slash has written--rock songs...not too fast, not too slow, lots of soul, uh huh--and mash it up with Chinese Democracy and you have two guys who don't want to, and probably shouldn't make music together. For better or worse, one guy changed, and one guy stayed the same. I'm not gonna ask Johnny Ramone and George Jones to write music together.

Good points, I just think Slash is so addicted to his image that he hates admitting songs like November rain and estranged worked. That's stubbornness too though, because he is capable of so much more outside of rock genre. It's unfortunate he hasn't gone back to an estranged or november rain type song. That's where he shines.

He might not like the two songs, but I think he appreciates both as great pieces of music. If we are being honest it is the ballads that made Slash who he is. Guns N Roses would have never become a global thing if it weren't for the songs Slash hated to do.

[PirateRadio]

I think Slash just wanted to feel like it was still a group thing. He didn't want to be stuck doing Axl's songs the rest of his career so it helped that he was able to add to the songs that Axl basically composed.

I know Slash has said that he was against songs like November Rain and Estranged, but he had to realize how amazing those songs were. I think the complexity and amazing lyrics along with the incredible piano composition helped seal Slash's approval for these songs, and the reason why he wanted to he a big part of these songs.

I would agree with this if Slash ever said something like this and appeared, on camera, like he meant it. I believe that to this day, Slash doesn't like these songs. Ever since, he's never recorded or bragged about or even hinted at creating anything like these songs. It's simple, look at what Slash has written--rock songs...not too fast, not too slow, lots of soul, uh huh--and mash it up with Chinese Democracy and you have two guys who don't want to, and probably shouldn't make music together. For better or worse, one guy changed, and one guy stayed the same. I'm not gonna ask Johnny Ramone and George Jones to write music together.

Good points, I just think Slash is so addicted to his image that he hates admitting songs like November rain and estranged worked. That's stubbornness too though, because he is capable of so much more outside of rock genre. It's unfortunate he hasn't gone back to an estranged or november rain type song. That's where he shines.

He might not like the two songs, but I think he appreciates both as great pieces of music. If we are being honest it is the ballads that made Slash who he is. Guns N Roses would have never become a global thing if it weren't for the songs Slash hated to do.

That's a legitimate point for sure. Slash was huge, but would you say the NR video elevated Slash to another level? Michael Jackson wanted him for Christ's sake. I think he makes peace with NR by thinking, "Fuck that song. I made it, and me, great." I can totally understand this too. He hates everything about the song except for his parts. Same with Estranged. He can tolerate it as being good only because he has a huge part, written by him, almost in spite of everything else that existed.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Time to DIE!!!

[EvH]

Is it part of Slash's "Sweet Child sucks" attitude?

[PirateRadio]

Is it part of Slash's "Sweet Child sucks" attitude?

Oh hell yeah it is. The guy hates ballads. He writes killer guitar parts for spite. I tell ya

[ManetsBR]

That whole Slash speech is just waaaay too pedantic...

[axlrod]

According to Tracii Guns, former L.A. Guns guitarist and founding member, Rose had been working on the song since at least 1983. In an interview, he said the following about "November Rain":

“ When we were doing that EP for L.A. Guns, like '83? He was playing "November Rain" — and it was called "November Rain" — you know, on piano. The guitar solo is amazing. Way back then. It was the only thing he knew how to play, but it was his. He'd go, "Someday this song is gonna be really cool." And I'd go, "It's cool now." "But it's not done", you know, he used to say. And, like, anytime we'd be at a hotel or anywhere, there'd be a piano; he'd just kinda play that music. And I'd go, "When are you gonna finish that already", you know? And he'd go, "I don't know what to do with it. ”

none of the other band members had wanted to partake in the production of this song (or the other notable ballad "Estranged"). Slash and McKagan were particularly opposed to the drift to symphonic ballads, and felt their choice of more direct rock songs were being overlooked by Rose. However, Rose talked them into it over discussions at Can-Am studios (where some of the album was recorded and mixed). It should be noted that claims of such harsh musical differences were specifically disputed by Slash in his autobiography.^[2]:454

Slash states in his autobiography that an 18-minute version of "November Rain" was recorded at a session with guitarist Manny Charlton (of rock band Nazareth) in 1986, before the recording sessions for Appetite for Destruction began.^[2]:151

Slash has said that the solo he played in the album version of the song (it is unclear which) was the same solo he played to the song when he heard it for the first time.^[2]:316 The solo is strikingly similar to the one found in "Best Of My Love" by Japanese artist Toshitaro (1984).

What is your point?

Axl's ego doesn't compromise. Duff said the band was becoming a dictatorship, everything had to get done in Axl’s way or it wouldn’t get done at all. I'm assuming that only legal matters like music royalties had compromised during that Axl's state of mind but compromising, firing members, stopping concerts, rehearsals and other chaos I don't think so.

Again it's not unclear which, was the same solo Slash played when he heard NR for the first time, did he re-write the solo or Axl directed him what to do?

[axlrod]

The solo is strikingly similar to the one found in "Best Of My Love" by Japanese artist Toshitaro (1984).

Where can I find that?

I haven't heard yet but according to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_Rain

[DieselDaisy]

Is it part of Slash's "Sweet Child sucks" attitude?

Which, in my opinion, is a load of bollocks created by Slash to make himself look 'cool' a la Joe Perry on Dream On.