SoulMonster Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Lockett was sentenced to death for the 1999 shooting of a 19-year-old woman. Warner was convicted for the 1997 murder and rape of an 11-month-old girl.Yeah........... I don't think I'm gonna lose any sleep over this. This. I'm against the death penalty but why some have to get worked up about it is a completely alien notion to me. If that's his crime, I definitely couldn't give two shits.Also torture? That's a tad emotional, no?You didn't read the article, did you?Not like they did it on purpose though. They didn't sit in a room and say, "lets fuck up the injection, give him a full dose and see what happens for a laugh!"The drugs were 'experimental'! You don't 'experiment' with lethal drugs on human beings even if they're on death row. Jesus Christ they use animals for the development of cosmetics! As much as I hate that too you would think that a state that is happy to slay a human being would at least test the drugs first on another form of life! Where are the principals? There are none whatsoever!They probably have tested the drugs on other mammals but until they set up some critical trials where they test the drugs on a large number of humans to demonstrate efficacy, which of course is absurd, then the first case of actually using the drug to kill humans will be experimental in nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Btw, have you guys heard the story about the LSD researchers trying out that drug on elephants back in the 70s when it was hoped it could be used to treat mental illnesses and they needed to figure out dose sizes? To make a short story long: If I remember it correctly they first tested it out on various smaller animals, including cats. After establishing the right dosage for cats to give the wanted cognitive effect (whatever that was), they brought in an elephant (from a circus, I presume) to verify they had got the dosing right. To measure out the dose for an elephant they basically just increased the amount of LSD in proportion to how much an elephant weighs compared to a cat. After administration of this humongous amount of LSD to the poor elephant, he trumpeted, shat, and fell over dead. After accepting that they hadn't got it right, at all, they started to figure out what was wrong. It turns out they didn't take into calculation the differences in metabolism between a small, agile animal like a cat and a large animal like an elephant. But more importantly, they weren't aware that LSD works at a specific part of the brain, and not the whole body, and that part of the brain is pretty similar size-wise between cats and elephants. Basically they gave the poor creature a 1000 fold overdose of LSD, or something like that.The whole story is as I remembered it from a chemistry class I took more than 10 years ago. I will have to google it now and find out how wrong it is. Anyway, it is an interesting anecdote that should remind us that until a drug has been tested in humans, it is experimental in nature, because, although we share so much with our mammalian relatives, there are still phsyiological and biochemical differences and as researchers we not only make mistakes but also sometimes are ignorant. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redhead74 Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 It makes sense SoulMonster. It's sad though. Really sad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Cool, I found something about it here: https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_history4.shtmlMost of my details were wrong, but the overall take-home message is intact Edited April 30, 2014 by SoulMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I'd pay money to see an elephant tripping 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR DOOM Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 When there is absolutely no doubt as to the guilt and the crime is heinous enough I'm in favour of capital punishment.I'm also not opposed to the punishment fitting the crime, including what would probably be described as torture.I know this is probably abhorrent to some of you but I think we could take a leaf out of some Middle Eastern countries when it comes to human scum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 What, like chopping a fellas hands off if he's a tea leaf and all that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR DOOM Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Nah, but if someone abducts and rapes a kid to death for example I think they forfeit all their rights to be treated humanely.Humans like that are just a burden on society and they clog up the prisons....you can't rehabilitate someone like that.Chop chop chop Edited April 30, 2014 by DR DOOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 The idea is that justice is supposed to be a counter-point to the senselessness and cruelty of a crime, justice is not retribution or the proliferation of similar amorality to the crime in the first instance, it's about putting a stop to that shit as a society and furthermore, leading by example in your treatment of the prisoner etc, you essentially validate the tenets of cruelty and evil by punishing a crime with what is essentially another crime, only legislated. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redhead74 Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 When there is absolutely no doubt as to the guilt and the crime is heinous enough I'm in favour of capital punishment.I'm also not opposed to the punishment fitting the crime, including what would probably be described as torture.I know this is probably abhorrent to some of you but I think we could take a leaf out of some Middle Eastern countries when it comes to human scum.But apparently those who were innocently executed were already 'guilty', otherwise they wouldn't have been convicted in the first place. Basic research shows that 4% of death row executions were WRONGFULLY executed! That's double what was previously thought! That is unfathomable in my mind. Imagine for just one second being related to one of those people. Let alone being the convicted one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tater Totts Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 The idea is that justice is supposed to be a counter-point to the senselessness and cruelty of a crime, justice is not retribution or the proliferation of similar amorality to the crime in the first instance, it's about putting a stop to that shit as a society and furthermore, leading by example in your treatment of the prisoner etc, you essentially validate the tenets of cruelty and evil by punishing a crime with what is essentially another crime, only legislated.Indeed, and that is one bit reason why the US Supreme Court has spent a great deal of time clarifiying the definition of "cruel and unusual punishment relating to the crime", so that the death penalty cannot be thrown around and used readily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR DOOM Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 The idea is that justice is supposed to be a counter-point to the senselessness and cruelty of a crime, justice is not retribution or the proliferation of similar amorality to the crime in the first instance, it's about putting a stop to that shit as a society and furthermore, leading by example in your treatment of the prisoner etc, you essentially validate the tenets of cruelty and evil by punishing a crime with what is essentially another crime, only legislated.Yeah I get that, it's a lovely idea, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" but justice fails people all the time.If someone raped and killed my kid, I'd want them dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
username Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 This isn't news. Hulk Hogan botches the execution of every line he tries to do. BROTHER. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tater Totts Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 This isn't news. Hulk Hogan botches the execution of every line he tries to do. BROTHER.RIGHT HERE IN THE SILVERDOME BROTHERJACK! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR DOOM Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 When there is absolutely no doubt as to the guilt and the crime is heinous enough I'm in favour of capital punishment.I'm also not opposed to the punishment fitting the crime, including what would probably be described as torture.I know this is probably abhorrent to some of you but I think we could take a leaf out of some Middle Eastern countries when it comes to human scum.But apparently those who were innocently executed were already 'guilty', otherwise they wouldn't have been convicted in the first place. Basic research shows that 4% of death row executions were WRONGFULLY executed! That's double what was previously thought! That is unfathomable in my mind. Imagine for just one second being related to one of those people. Let alone being the convicted one. Yeah I know it's often poor black people in the US who are executed and some of it is dubious.If I went through a shopping centre with a couple of assault rifles, SMG's and thermite grenades and took out shitload of people and it was on CCTV and all that, you know absolute proof... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) The idea is that justice is supposed to be a counter-point to the senselessness and cruelty of a crime, justice is not retribution or the proliferation of similar amorality to the crime in the first instance, it's about putting a stop to that shit as a society and furthermore, leading by example in your treatment of the prisoner etc, you essentially validate the tenets of cruelty and evil by punishing a crime with what is essentially another crime, only legislated.Yeah I get that, it's a lovely idea, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" but justice fails people all the time.If someone raped and killed my kid, I'd want them dead.So would I man...but at the same time, now and here, with my perception undistorted by a lack of blind rage, i recognise that to be a human failing in me...and you can't go through life allowing the worser angels of your nature govern your shit. Shit, there's some of my mates that, if they got killed I'd wanna do the other fucker, let alone family, I'd lose my fuckin' mind...but does that make it right, on any level? Morally right, right for me and my future, right for the memory of the lost loved one...is there anything at all right about that shit? I guess at a certain point of trauma you stop giving a fuck about right or wrong...which and now, with a clear head, my perspective unpolluted by rage (righteous or otherwise) I recognise that shit to be wrong and counter-productive and negative on every level.Also, with respect, i think people are flippant about this shit, life is not a movie, it takes a lot to kill a man. Edited April 30, 2014 by sugaraylen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 After administration of this humongous amount of LSD to the poor elephant, he trumpeted, shat, and fell over dead.I'm sorry but I literally laughed out loud at that. I'm totally a bad person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 After administration of this humongous amount of LSD to the poor elephant, he trumpeted, shat, and fell over dead.I'm sorry but I literally laughed out loud at that. I'm totally a bad person. I think it is a hilarious story myself. That's why I still remember it, I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tater Totts Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Broken system really, accused can't afford a good lawyer while the state prosecution has a good one. The lawyer fails in his job of proving beyond reasonable doubt that the accused didn't commit the crime while the prosecutor who is a better lawyer and has more resources can do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 After administration of this humongous amount of LSD to the poor elephant, he trumpeted, shat, and fell over dead.I'm sorry but I literally laughed out loud at that. I'm totally a bad person. That is SOOO hilairious...NEEEEEUUURGHHH!!!...then it just tips sideways and 'thunk' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
username Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 After administration of this humongous amount of LSD to the poor elephant, he trumpeted, shat, and fell over dead.I'm sorry but I literally laughed out loud at that. I'm totally a bad person. I think it is a hilarious story myself. That's why I still remember it, I guess I just think it's horrible, unnecessary and cruel to even get the idea to try this on elephants. Or cats. Or any other animals for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redhead74 Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 Elephants grieve like humans when one of their family dies. I find that fascinating, they have very similar emotions to humans. Not so funny any more when you think about one dying due to a human drug experiment. Broken system really, accused can't afford a good lawyer while the state prosecution has a good one. The lawyer fails in his job of proving beyond reasonable doubt that the accused didn't commit the crime while the prosecutor who is a better lawyer and has more resources can do so.Exactly. Flawed system. If the system is perfect, the police department perfect and the juries are perfect, then by all means execute people for senselessly murdering an innocent human being who never did anything to hurt or damage the murderer. But that's not the way it is. And if you're still gonna kill another human being in the "eye for an eye" mentality well you'd better sure as fuck make sure you know what you're doing. Which they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR DOOM Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 The idea is that justice is supposed to be a counter-point to the senselessness and cruelty of a crime, justice is not retribution or the proliferation of similar amorality to the crime in the first instance, it's about putting a stop to that shit as a society and furthermore, leading by example in your treatment of the prisoner etc, you essentially validate the tenets of cruelty and evil by punishing a crime with what is essentially another crime, only legislated.Yeah I get that, it's a lovely idea, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" but justice fails people all the time.If someone raped and killed my kid, I'd want them dead.So would I man...but at the same time, now and here, with my perception undistorted by a lack of blind rage, i recognise that to be a human failing in me...and you can't go through life allowing the worser angels of your nature govern your shit. Shit, there's some of my mates that, if they got killed I'd wanna do the other fucker, let alone family, I'd lose my fuckin' mind...but does that make it right, on any level? Morally right, right for me and my future, right for the memory of the lost loved one...is there anything at all right about that shit? I guess at a certain point of trauma you stop giving a fuck about right or wrong...which and now, with a clear head, my perspective unpolluted by rage (righteous or otherwise) I recognise that shit to be wrong and counter-productive and negative on every level.Also, with respect, i think people are flippant about this shit, life is not a movie, it takes a lot to kill a man.Very well put, and of course I cant argue with your logic.I respectfully disagree though, I'll wear the politically incorrect badge or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) I don't think any other elephants was around to grieve for poor Tusko.Seriously, though, we could end drug testing on animals but that would ultimately mean sacrificing the lives of humans because we simply don't have any perfect alternatives to experimentally testing drugs. Most people consider the modern practise of animal testing a necessary evil (when it is done as humanly to the animals as possible - not like with pool old Tusko back in the 60s)). And if you eat meat, hence approve of the slaughtering of animals to give you food when you could be a vegetarian, then I find it slightly hypocritical to criticise animal testing which are, in most cases, absolutely instrumental in the advancement of drug research. Edited April 30, 2014 by SoulMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
username Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I don't think any other elephants was around to grieve for poor Tusko.Making it worse. <sarcasm>He must've had such a great life.</sarcasm> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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