The Boxing Thread

[Iron MikeyJ]

I'm not making excuses for him, just pointing out that his story IS different than most others. He had the world by the balls by 20 years old, how would you of handled it? How would anyone of handled it? With no one in his corner that really cared (after Cus died). He got swept up by Don King's Bs, chewed and spit back out. 

No other fighter has had to deal with anything remotely as challenging (barring Jack Johnson's racist stuff). Not even Ali had as tough of a road personally. Yes he had the whole Vietnam thing, but that was HIS choice, we tend to over look that. Sure Tyson didn't HAVE to go with Don King, but King manipulated a 20 year old kid. A kid with no family, and no one that really cared about him at all. King then turned it into a white vs black thing, saying guys like Rooney were "slave masters" and come over here to where it will be blacks helping blacks. How did that work out for him? Total mind game. That's when Tyson started his decline, right before the first Bruno fight. Then came Douglas, and he was NEVER the same animal again. Surely you recognize this? The closest fights to "real" Tyson after the Bruno fight was the two against Ruddock. Which those are two epic heavyweight slugfests, that I watch fairly often. But even in those fights, Mike just wanted to out slug Ruddock. Not nearly as much defense and head movement, not nearly as many body shots, loading up for one or two big shots, etc. 

So this is where we agree to disagree, I say YES throw the records out the window. Why? Because Tyson's career is the BIGGEST what if in sports history. It doesn't compare in the slightest to anything you or I have gone through. When comparing to other fighters, you use your eye test. Name me one other heavyweight that looked better in the gym? Ali? No freaking way. Watching Tyson train is STILL to this day unlike anything else we've ever seen. Even Holyfield said recently "nobody out worked Mike in the gym." So Tyson out worked and out talented any heavyweight that has ever lived. That's gotta count for something man. That's why the "what ifs" DO count when they come to Tyson. Plus the eye test don't lie. You can't tell me that if we put a prime Joe Louis (again I love him) and a prime Tyson in the ring, Louis is in for some trouble? What do your EYES tell you?

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Iron MikeyJ

[spunko12345]

😂😂😂 that farmer blatantly had a visit from someone of thick set Irish descent or an MTK "associate"

[Len Cnut]

17 hours ago, spunko12345 said:

😂😂😂 that farmer blatantly had a visit from someone of thick set Irish descent or an MTK "associate"

Or he was just a lying bastard to begin with getting slipped a couple of grand under the table by The Sun for a spurious story. 

[Len Cnut]

Quote

I'm not making excuses for him, just pointing out that his story IS different than most others. He had the world by the balls by 20 years old, how would you of handled it? How would anyone of handled it? With no one in his corner that really cared (after Cus died). He got swept up by Don King's Bs, chewed and spit back out. 

Not really hugely different, young man, comes into a shitload of money and success, doesn't have a support system (how many of these ghetto kids that become huge fighters do?) didn't handle his business well, that sounds a shitload like many many boxers.  As far as who cared for him in his corner, well thats a matter of the people that were actually there, the guys Cus put in place are considered by some to be wholly honourable (i.e. Jim Jacobs, Bill Cayton) and by others, including Mike in the case of Cayton, not so honourable.  I dunno, this shit is a mans personal life and I don't take any of it for granted but what boxer did get an easy ride in that regard?  I'm not arguing that it is or isn't easy it handle, I'm just sticking to the facts, that he didn't handle it well, its not my job to justify to condemn Mikes life.

Quote

No other fighter has had to deal with anything remotely as challenging (barring Jack Johnson's racist stuff). Not even Ali had as tough of a road personally. Yes he had the whole Vietnam thing, but that was HIS choice, we tend to over look that.

Ali's was a MILLION times harder.  What the fuck was hard for Mike compared to Ali, Mike was groomed for greatness, he had the title, he had relatively easier opponents and he had a support system put there by his surrogate father, he wasn't a figurehead for a part of the Civil Rights movement when figureheads for the Civil Rights movement were getting shot in the street, he wasn't banned from fighting for three years, striped of his title, left almost bankrupt etc etc  And Ali was what, 22 when he won the title?  What happened in those two years from age 20 to 22 that makes Ali somehow infinitely more mature and equipped to handle the pressures of fame and fortune than Mike?  And y'know what else Ali didn't do?  He didn't use that other shit as an excuse for losing fights. 

Quote

but King manipulated a 20 year old kid. A kid with no family, and no one that really cared about him at all. King then turned it into a white vs black thing, saying guys like Rooney were "slave masters" and come over here to where it will be blacks helping blacks. How did that work out for him? Total mind game.

OR...Tyson wanted to go with King because King didn't give a shit about his behaviour and thats what Tyson wanted, someone who would let him fuck around, not train, shag prostitutes left right and centre, smoke weed, do coke and generally live the life of Reilly.  Who cared about Sonny Liston, read about that guys life.  Or Roberto Duran.  Or Ray Robinson, have a look see how some of those guys came up.  Boxing is overflowing with dead end kids with nobody behind him.  He was immature, arrogant etc etc but don't tell me the fuckin' guy didn't know right from wrong, he didn't know that you're not supposed to fuck whores and do coke and skip training camp, all this shit was like, a revelation to him?  Come on.  Where Mike was from I'm sure it wasn't the first time in his life he ever heard that white guys were using him, all the while up to his fuckin' eyeballs in money from fight purses and Pepsi and Nintendo sponsorship, lets not make out that it was all fuckin' grit and grime for Mike, yeah his first 12 years were rough, after that he was either living in the Catskills and then became one of the youngest millionaires and most celebrated sportsman in the world, this guy wasn't going through THAT tough a time, comparitively speaking, certainly not in the context of this conversation which is ostensibly about a guy flushing his career down the toilet, then again in Mikes defence he did become the undisputed HW champ by basically clearing out the division so its not been that much of a waste, certainly not something to warrant sympathy or pity. 

Quote

That's when Tyson started his decline, right before the first Bruno fight. Then came Douglas, and he was NEVER the same animal again. Surely you recognize this? The closest fights to "real" Tyson after the Bruno fight was the two against Ruddock. Which those are two epic heavyweight slugfests, that I watch fairly often. But even in those fights, Mike just wanted to out slug Ruddock. Not nearly as much defense and head movement, not nearly as many body shots, loading up for one or two big shots, etc. 

Yeah I recognise this, it doesn't stand contrary to anything I said though, the guy got a lot of money, it went to his head, he started fuckin' around and wasn't the same man anymore.  That isn't grounds for a pass.  Why is the one winning the fights 'the real Tyson' and the cunt that spunked it all away not the real Tyson?  They're both the real Tyson, you can make excuses all day long, here look, I'll do it for Ali, first Frazier fight, came off a huge lay off and fought him too quickly, doesn't count, loss to Norton, wasn't training, didn't take him seriously, doesn't count, loss to Leon Spinks, same thing, loss to Larry Holmes, pushed out of retirement for money cuz of an 8 million cheque waved around by Don King, was clearly finished with a lack of motor skills, doesn't count, Trevor Berbick, doesn't count...once the bell rings and you step inside, they all fuckin' count.  This isn't something that creeps up on you or something you have to make a snap desicion about, these training camps last months, if you are not ready or somehow handicapped, don't fuckin' fight because they all count, regardless of whether you're my hero (and Ali and Mike both are, though Ali more than Mike). 

You can blame Don King, or whores, or whatever but this is boxing, this is a sport, whatever the reasons for you fuckin' up if you fucked up then you fucked up, there are no excuses, the man with the better record that achieved the things that your favourite guy didn't, in a logical discussion, is the better man, regardless of whether or not you like someone or choose to write off a persons record.

Look at this way, I'm a dyed in the wool Mike Tyson fan, I hated Lennox Lewis most of my childhood, couldn't stand the guy, didn't rate him as a figher (at least when stacked against the position he was given in boxing)...but end of the day when you grow up, get mature and start acting like an adult you stop and realise, 'hang on, whys this guy not getting my respect?  He's done basically what a fighters supposed to do, beat the best of his day (the ones who didn't throw their titles in the bin anyway) and retired on top.  But what, Little Len don't like him because he starched his boyhood hero.  I'll tell you the truth, that fight made me sick.  But end of the day, when the smoke clears whoose fault is that?  Mine?  Yours?  Lennox Lewises?  Or Mikes for being a cunt?  Or someone like Joe Calzaghe, never liked him, he always fought and beat men out of their prime to me.  But was that his fault?  Retired undefeated, what was it, 46 and 0?  He deserves respect, Lennox Lewis deserves respect, Evander Holyfield deserves respect.  Its a mans game and when you beat a man you beat him, no excuses or crying and complaining after the fact, its a bad look, Mike certainly doesn't do it.

Men like Ali, Joe Louis, that you sit their casually writing off in comparison to Mike, these flogged their guts out in the ring, beat the best of their time and can go out with their heads held high.  Talkin' about people like Joe Louis had an easier time than Mike Tyson, growing up in the 20s and fighting in the 30s as a black man in America, come on man.  Y'know they taught that guy never to raise his hands over a fallen opponent, never to celebrate winning a fight because it made you look like an upitty n!gger...meanwhile there's Mike ballin' prostitutes in the MGM grand, wired out of his brains on cocaine   I'm not saying Mike had anything like an easy life by any stretch of the imagination but he also saw a lot more of the good life than anybody reading this is ever likely to even approach so lets balance this shit out a bit. 

Quote

So this is where we agree to disagree, I say YES throw the records out the window.

Right well thats where we will forever differ because, in boxing, the record is what a fighter stands on.

Quote

When comparing to other fighters, you use your eye test. Name me one other heavyweight that looked better in the gym? Ali? No freaking way. Watching Tyson train is STILL to this day unlike anything else we've ever seen. Even Holyfield said recently "nobody out worked Mike in the gym."

Chris Eubank Jnr looks AMAZING in the gym, stunning.  James Toney often looked awful, didn't even train that hard, preferred sparring...whoose the better fighter?  You do not see talent in the gym, what matters is the ring and what happens there.  And plenty of fighters out-worked Tyson, Ali practically lived in the gym in the early days of the 5th Street.  Also, intelligent fighters use the gym to work on their weaknesses, not smashing the fuck out of hapless sparring partners or throwing rapid combos. 

Quote

So Tyson out worked and out talented any heavyweight that has ever lived. That's gotta count for something man. That's why the "what ifs" DO count when they come to Tyson. Plus the eye test don't lie. You can't tell me that if we put a prime Joe Louis (again I love him) and a prime Tyson in the ring, Louis is in for some trouble? What do your EYES tell you?

My eyes tell me Mike outweighs him by about 30 lbs, my eyes tell me that a guy like Joe Louis if he was around in Mike times would be more likely to be fighting at Cruiserweight.  My eyes tell me that Joe Louis was one of the best technical boxers ever.  My eyes tell me that old grainy footage from the 30s and 40s is not of a quality high enough for you to see exactly what he is doing to those 50 odd opponents that he knocked the fuck out.  My eyes tell me that he had amazing footwork, precision punching, he never wasted a shot, had a fantastic jab and there is no man for whom Joe Louis would be a walk in the park, including the great Mike Tyson but I'm sure he'd tell you that himself.  And again, like I said in my first post, you're comparing a guy from the 30s to a guy from the 80s, 50 years of evolution in training, nutrition, conditioning coaching, mental coaching, its not a fair comparison, you just a judge a man based on the men who were there to fight in his day, not condemn him for an imaginary fight you might've liked to've seen with someone from an entirely different time and place for him, in much the same way you don't judge a guy from the 50s by todays moral standards where it was societally acceptable to discipline your kids with a stick and drive with 8 pints of ale in you.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Len Cnut

[Len Cnut]

10 minutes ago, lukepowell1988 said:

So is Tyson defenitly coming back ?

 

Madness if he is 

I don't think he will.  At best an exhibition, which is like a glorified sparring session. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

I wouldn't be shocked if some kind of "heavyweight senior division" is in the works. It seems like Shannon Brigs, Holyfield, Tyson and a few more might be interested. I've even heard rumblings of Klitschko making a comeback (although he is young enough to fight for the real thing.) I think this is the best plan/idea, a bunch of 50 and 60 something's fighting is a lot better and smarter. That way it's a level playing field. Some ex MMA guys might be interested as well (from what I've heard). I think that's why Tyson isn't saying much about it, because it might be bigger than just him. 

[Len Cnut]

11 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I wouldn't be shocked if some kind of "heavyweight senior division" is in the works. It seems like Shannon Brigs, Holyfield, Tyson and a few more might be interested. I've even heard rumblings of Klitschko making a comeback (although he is young enough to fight for the real thing.) I think this is the best plan/idea, a bunch of 50 and 60 something's fighting is a lot better and smarter. That way it's a level playing field. Some ex MMA guys might be interested as well (from what I've heard). I think that's why Tyson isn't saying much about it, because it might be bigger than just him. 

The problem I have with these real real big guys is that you kinda eschew skill for size.  I mean its difficult to have a healthy division of skillful guys at that size, you get your odd freak of nature like Tyson Fury but then you kinda have to make way for a division mostly populated by big fatties of bodybuilding fanatics, its not good for the sport, in a purest sense.  Its why you have such a soft division all the time since post Tyson era, its like going back to the old Primo Carnera circus freak times.

[Iron MikeyJ]

6 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

The problem I have with these real real big guys is that you kinda eschew skill for size.  I mean its difficult to have a healthy division of skillful guys at that size, you get your odd freak of nature like Tyson Fury but then you kinda have to make way for a division mostly populated by big fatties of bodybuilding fanatics, its not good for the sport, in a purest sense.  Its why you have such a soft division all the time since post Tyson era, its like going back to the old Primo Carnera circus freak times.

I understand what you are saying, and it's a valid point, but do you REALLY see some body builder or MMA guys really giving Tyson, Holyfield, Briggs or another former boxer all that much trouble? The division will need some "cannon fodder" as well. If those kind of guys want to step in the ring with Tyson for a good paycheck, then God bless them I say. 

On a side note, it would be fun if they can get Butterbean out of retirement as well. I would watch big ole' Butterbean knock around some bodybuilder guy. That would be fun imo. 

Let's be real here, IF this division does happen, it's more of a sideshow type of thing anyways. It's somewhere between celebrity boxing, exhibitions, and serious boxing. So enjoy it for what it is, and don't judge it for what it's not. I'm sure there are a TON of guys out there that would LOVE to get into something like this. Chris Byrd, David Tua, Rahman, etc. Maybe even Lennox might consider it.

Also let me add, if they do it properly, with ONE champion it could give boxing a good kick in the pants. A Tyson vs Holyfield for the senior division championship would out perform (ppv wise) anything outside of your Fury's, Joshuas, Canelos, GGG, etc.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Iron MikeyJ

[Len Cnut]

4 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I understand what you are saying, and it's a valid point, but do you REALLY see some body builder or MMA guys really giving Tyson, Holyfield, Briggs or another former boxer all that much trouble? The division will need some "cannon fodder" as well. If those kind of guys want to step in the ring with Tyson for a good paycheck, then God bless them I say. 

On a side note, it would be fun if they can get Butterbean out of retirement as well. I would watch big ole' Butterbean knock around some bodybuilder guy. That would be fun imo. 

Let's be real here, IF this division does happen, it's more of a sideshow type of thing anyways. It's somewhere between celebrity boxing, exhibitions, and serious boxing. So enjoy it for what it is, and don't judge it for what it's not. I'm sure there are a TON of guys out there that would LOVE to get into something like this. Chris Byrd, David Tua, Rahman, etc. Maybe even Lennox might consider it.

Also let me add, if they do it properly, with ONE champion it could give boxing a good kick in the pants. A Tyson vs Holyfield for the senior division championship would out perform (ppv wise) anything outside of your Fury's, Joshuas, Canelos, GGG, etc.

I’d like to see good new boxers myself, not really bothered about seeing old guys come back.  And there are some, Michael Hunter is pretty good, as is Oscar Rivas, check out Daniel Dubois, you’ll like him:

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Len Cnut

[Dazey]

11 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I’d like to see good new boxers myself, not really bothered about seeing old guys come back.  And there are some, Michael Hunter is pretty good, as is Oscar Rivas, check out Daniel Dubois, you’ll like him:

 

Look at the fuckin' bitch tits on that first fella!  It's a good thing the ref stopped it cuz he was about to give himself two black eyes without any help with that set of spaniel's ears hanging off him!  

[Len Cnut]

1 hour ago, Dazey said:

Look at the fuckin' bitch tits on that first fella!  It's a good thing the ref stopped it cuz he was about to give himself two black eyes without any help with that set of spaniel's ears hanging off him!  

Everyones early fights are soft touches...and in a shit division the parameters of what is considered a soft touch widen greatly

[Dazey]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Everyones early fights are soft touches...and in a shit division the parameters of what is considered a soft touch widen greatly

But why would you even get into the sport in that kinda shape? I mean there can't be much money in it at the bottom end being basically cannon fodder? Getting hit in the head for a living is one thing if you're making a fortune at it but getting your head kicked in week after week on a rainy Tuesday night in Leicester has got to be a bit of a stretch surely?  

[Len Cnut]

3 minutes ago, Dazey said:

But why would you even get into the sport in that kinda shape? I mean there can't be much money in it at the bottom end being basically cannon fodder? Getting hit in the head for a living is one thing if you're making a fortune at it but getting your head kicked in week after week on a rainy Tuesday night in Leicester has got to be a bit of a stretch surely?  

Because your day job is working a fuckin' doorman outside Pryzm and its a quick couple of grand for three minutes work.

[Len Cnut]

4 minutes ago, lukepowell1988 said:

Update from the DAZN Beta.

 

They are looking to launch around September time and will be £4.99 a month.

 

They will be doing an annualy sub for around £49.99

 

 

I'm in, if it means all the boxing and that I am well fuckin' in. 

[Len Cnut]

4 minutes ago, lukepowell1988 said:

Mainly going to be USA fights.

 

Matchroom's deal with Sky ends Next year from what I understand and it's highly likely Big Josh will move to DAZN next year.

USA fights are fucking brilliant really, I'd take that all day long.  It'll be interesting if Matchroom jack Sky in, so it'll be a BT vs DAZN race with boxing? 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Len Cnut

[Len Cnut]

Leo Santa Cruz vs Gervonta Davis is on for Oct.

[DieselDaisy]

It will be like Rocky where he fights some wanker called The Mason-Dixon Line. Two flabby old men who should really be settling down with their pipe and slippers. 

[Gavin82]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/53517095

[Len Cnut]

PPV view for an exhibition fight...answers those ‘why are they doing it?’ questions eh?

[Silverburst80]

Well i can't lie Tyson getting in there with Roy makes me happy, Roy Jones Jnr is my favourite boxer of all time.....but y'know with all the head gear and whatnot  i don't think i'll be tuning in.

[Iron MikeyJ]

It's like I said, they are doing some sort of Legends Only league. I'm interested.

[Dazey]

26 minutes ago, Silverburst80 said:

Well i can't lie Tyson getting in there with Roy makes me happy, Roy Jones Jnr is my favourite boxer of all time.....but y'know with all the head gear and whatnot  i don't think i'll be tuning in.

No headgear involved apparently. 

[Silverburst80]

5 minutes ago, Dazey said:

No headgear involved apparently. 

Oh really i thought there was....i'm still a little sketchy on the details on what's allowed etc.

[Dazey]

2 minutes ago, Silverburst80 said:

Oh really i thought there was....i'm still a little sketchy on the details on what's allowed etc.

Read something earlier today saying 8 rounds, no headgear and no judges but the bout gets stopped if either fighter gets cut. 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/12212726/mike-tyson-vs-roy-jones-jr-fight-rules/

Edited July 24, 2020 by Dazey

[Silverburst80]

28 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Read something earlier today saying 8 rounds, no headgear and no judges but the bout gets stopped if either fighter gets cut. 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/12212726/mike-tyson-vs-roy-jones-jr-fight-rules/

Well Tyson doesn't bleed and he was never going to land anything on Roy so should go the distance then