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There's a LOT of public debate going on over this. So the image of Zwarte Piet is slowly changing from full-on blackface to just white people with smudges on their face.

:lol:

Thats possibly the best reaction I've seen to this sort of stuff ever, 'how about we make them a little less black?' :lol: 

26 minutes ago, soon said:

It all looks a little bit fabulous too. The racism is just a cover for the gender bending. :lol:

There you go, there's a middle ground, make them transsexual children, problem solved :lol:

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It's incredibly retarded to have a debate lol. It's undeniably overtly racist so either get rid of it or shrug and the Dutch just continue being pricks.

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29 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Thats possibly the best reaction I've seen to this sort of stuff ever, 'how about we make them a little less black?' :lol: 

There you go, there's a middle ground, make them transsexual children, problem solved :lol:

 Afbeeldingsresultaat voor sinterklaasjournaal;

Well, I mean.... he's supposed to be black from climing through dirty chimneys to leave presents for the children. So this does seem accurate. This is from national tv this year btw. 

Edited by username

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11 minutes ago, username said:

 Afbeeldingsresultaat voor sinterklaasjournaal;

Well, I mean.... he's supposed to be black from climing through dirty chimneys to leave presents for the children. So this does seem accurate. This is from national tv this year btw. 

I think its much ado about nothing, based on what you've told me.  I don't think gollywog toys or this kinda shit being banned does much, if anything at all, in terms of curbing racism.  They are remnants of a racist past, OK...but that past is there no matter how much you remove its remnants, how about just accepting that it is what it is and, if your interest is attacking racism, attack aspects of it in the real world today, stuff that actually effects peoples, this kinda stuff is just comical really. 

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They're smudged because they come down the chimney, @Len Cnut. I think it's about half and half now here in Belgium, I think. Personally I think it's all rubbish. All children love Zwarte Piet, even more than Sinterklaas, who is indeed a stern man. The Zwarte Pieten are always goofing around doing funny stuff. Back in the day we were still a bit scared of Zwarte Piet, as he was the one who would put you in a bag and take you away from your parents if you'd been naughty. But he's been nothing but fun the last 30 years or so. I don't think I ever saw him as a black man back in the day. Kids don't think about that, much less see them as slaves. Are the little elves slaves? Everyone would love to help Sinterklaas, surely!

Anyway, if people are hurt by that, fine. Have smudge Piet. I don't think kids care that much. It's just adults making this into a big deal. The thing that disgusts me is that adults ruin it for children by demonstrating against Zwarte Piet. As a kid, Sinterklaas was by far my favourite holiday. I still love it.

In the Netherlands, they're more extreme than here with the protests. We're more of the soft evolution type. No need to spoil the party for the poor kiddies.

Oh, and now the Zwarte Pieten debate has practically been won by the offended people, they start attacking the whole Sinterklaas thing. KIds get stressed because maybe they've been naughty and won't get anything. There's not even talk of a bag for naughty kids anymore. And another thing is the adult conspiracy against the poor little kids. Kids will be disillusioned if they discover their parents, their entire family, teachers and basically all adults and older kids have been lying to them for years. I do remember when my mum told me Sinterklaas wasn't real, it was all them doing it. But even if it was a bit of a trauma, the fun and excitement that is Sinterklaas is worth a little trauma :lol:

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5 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I think its much ado about nothing, based on what you've told me.  I don't think gollywog toys or this kinda shit being banned does much, if anything at all, in terms of curbing racism.  They are remnants of a racist past, OK...but that past is there no matter how much you remove its remnants, how about just accepting that it is what it is and, if your interest is attacking racism, attack aspects of it in the real world today, stuff that actually effects peoples, this kinda stuff is just comical really. 

Somehow this reminds me of that wanker at the BBC (some DJ) who stated that in todays day and age he can't support The Fairytale Of New York by The Pogues being played on the radio anymore because the language in it simply won't do in today's world. :lol: What a fucking asshole. 

Edit: This wanker.... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7750597/BBC-DJ-calls-Pogues-Christmas-classic-Fairytale-New-York-BANNED.html 

Fucks sake, I do get it a bit with Zwarte Piet, but some alterations should easily fix that. And some people are literally offended by anything. 

Edited by username

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3 minutes ago, Lio said:

They're smudged because they come down the chimney, @Len Cnut. I think it's about half and half now here in Belgium, I think. Personally I think it's all rubbish. All children love Zwarte Piet, even more than Sinterklaas, who is indeed a stern man. The Zwarte Pieten are always goofing around doing funny stuff. Back in the day we were still a bit scared of Zwarte Piet, as he was the one who would put you in a bag and take you away from your parents if you'd been naughty. But he's been nothing but fun the last 30 years or so. I don't think I ever saw him as a black man back in the day. Kids don't think about that, much less see them as slaves. Are the little elves slaves? Everyone would love to help Sinterklaas, surely!

Anyway, if people are hurt by that, fine. Have smudge Piet. I don't think kids care that much. It's just adults making this into a big deal. The thing that disgusts me is that adults ruin it for children by demonstrating against Zwarte Piet. As a kid, Sinterklaas was by far my favourite holiday. I still love it.

In the Netherlands, they're more extreme than here with the protests. We're more of the soft evolution type. No need to spoil the party for the poor kiddies.

Oh, and now the Zwarte Pieten debate has practically been won by the offended people, they start attacking the whole Sinterklaas thing. KIds get stressed because maybe they've been naughty and won't get anything. There's not even talk of a bag for naughty kids anymore. And another thing is the adult conspiracy against the poor little kids. Kids will be disillusioned if they discover their parents, their entire family, teachers and basically all adults and older kids have been lying to them for years. I do remember when my mum told me Sinterklaas wasn't real, it was all them doing it. But even if it was a bit of a trauma, the fun and excitement that is Sinterklaas is worth a little trauma :lol:

Are you for real? Wow lol. "Aww come on! Our ignorant children who don't understand fuck-all about anything like this enjoy it."

Ideally it wouldn't need to be about censorship but rather having some self-awareness and a little brainpower in the first place. These are the people that started apartheid ffs.

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Just now, Oldest Goat said:

Are you for real? Wow lol. "Aww come on! Our ignorant children who don't understand fuck-all about anything like this enjoy it."

Ideally it wouldn't need to be about censorship but rather having some self-awareness and a little brainpower in the first place. These are the people that started apartheid ffs.

Seriously? It's not just a Dutch holiday, it's Belgian too, so maybe you shouldn't just drag apartheid into it, but Leopold II as well.

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If this was Britain we'd be crucified, least of all by our very own lefties, but because it is another country it is a different story. 

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1 minute ago, Lio said:

Seriously? It's not just a Dutch holiday, it's Belgian too, so maybe you shouldn't just drag apartheid into it, but Leopold II as well.

Are you taking the piss or do you genuinely not see the difference between something ridiculously PC like getting rid of the Christmas naughty list - and dressing up as a bunch of golliwog n!gger slaves for the sake of coonery buffoonery? Mindblowing.

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3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Are you taking the piss or do you genuinely not see the difference between something ridiculously PC like getting rid of the Christmas naughty list - and dressing up as a bunch of golliwog n!gger slaves for the sake of coonery buffoonery? Mindblowing.

I don't see what the naughty list has to do with Zwarte Piet. I already explained my stance. As you know nothing whatsoever about where it all comes from and how it has evolved, but you do tend to see things black and white with no room for nuance, there's no reason for us to further discuss this. I agree with @username mostly, and with Len as well.

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Just now, Lio said:

I don't see what the naughty list has to do with Zwarte Piet. I already explained my stance. As you know nothing whatsoever about where it all comes from and how it has evolved, but you do tend to see things black and white with no room for nuance, there's no reason for us to further discuss this. I agree with @username mostly, and with Len as well.

People wanting to abolish something like the naughty list is a clear example of over the top political correctness. People wanting to abolish a retarded tradition of overt undeniable racism is not over the top political correctness. Traditions are at best a scheduled comfort and at worst destructive and blinding. I know exactly where something like this comes from; the meager minds of bigoted fools - choosing to carry it on for amusement and shrug off the reality of the meaning is disappointing to say the least.

I hate political correctness as much as the next person but I wouldn't mindlessly commit myself to that stance.

Stranger on the internet who doesn't know me baselessly decides I'm so black and white I lack nuance? Whatever, shove it lol.

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One Christmas tradition I'll never understand is "sexy Mrs Clause" lingerie/costumes. Just, why?? And are we cucking Santa? Whats the deal?

I so wanna post the "fuck me Santa, fuck me Santa, fuck me Santa, fuck me Santa" scene from Bad Santa :lol:

(but I dont know how to go about that with the new media posting guidelines) 

 

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At least Sinterklaas is based on a real saint, you can't say that about Santa Claus.

As for Zwarte Piet, I can understand that people from outside of Holland or Belgium won't get it and think it's racisim, but when you grow up with this tradition you don't see it that way at all. The chimney story doesn't really work for me, yes he comes down the chimney to bring presents, but doesn't Sinterklaas do that too? When I was a kid I always thought they were black because they came from Spain and it's always sunny there, that's how children's logic works. I wanted to be Zwarte Piet, we dressed up as Zwarte Piet every December, he was the coolest person in the world.

I understand both sides, I have a black friend who used to be called ''Zwarte Piet'' and he thinks Zwarte Piet is racism, but my black colleague at work thinks this entire discussion is ridiculous and doesn't agree with the ''against'' camp at all. Personally I can see some some racial stereotypes that cling to this character from back in the day, but that doesn't make everyone who grew up with this tradition a racist. I also understand the people who are offended for being called racists because of a children's celebration and a tradition that has brought nothing but joy for many generations. It's probably best that he is slowly disappearing and instead we are getting Veeg Piet or Roet Piet or whatever they are called nowadays. Kids couldn't care less either way.

I hope that everyone who celebrates this great tradition will have a lovely Sinterklaas evening tonight!

Edited by EvanG
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13 minutes ago, EvanG said:

At least Sinterklaas is based on a real saint, you can't say that about Santa Claus.

As for Zwarte Piet, I can understand that people from outside of Holland or Belgium won't get it and think it's racisim, but when you grow up with this tradition you don't see it that way at all. The chimney story doesn't really work for me, yes he comes down the chimney to bring presents, but doesn't Sinterklaas do that too? When I was a kid I always thought they were black because they came from Spain and it's always sunny there, that's how children's logic works. I wanted to be Zwarte Piet, we dressed up as Zwarte Piet every December, he was the coolest person in the world.

I understand both sides, I have a black friend who used to be called ''Zwarte Piet'' and he thinks Zwarte Piet is racism, but my black colleague at work thinks this entire discussion is ridiculous and doesn't agree with the ''against'' camp at all. Personally I can see some some racial stereotypes that cling to this character from back in the day, but that doesn't make everyone who grew up with this tradition a racist. I also understand the people who are offended for being called racists because of a children's celebration and a tradition that has brought nothing but joy for many generations. It's probably best that he is slowly disappearing and instead we are getting Veeg Piet or Roet Piet or whatever they are called nowadays. Kids couldn't care less either way.

I hope that everyone who celebrates this great tradition will have a lovely Sinterklaas evening tonight!

Of course not all Belgiums and Dutch are racist(just you, Evan). But this specific traditional thing absolutely is, so it's kind of shocking and unacceptable.

Have a happy holiday and try not to lynch anyone :lol:

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1 hour ago, Lio said:

I do remember when my mum told me Sinterklaas wasn't real, it was all them doing it. But even if it was a bit of a trauma, the fun and excitement that is Sinterklaas is worth a little trauma :lol:

I was crestfallen when I found out Sinterklaas wasn't real. Sure, I was 27 years old already, but it still hurt.

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49 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Stranger on the internet who doesn't know me baselessly decides I'm so black and white I lack nuance? Whatever, shove it lol.

That's funny coming from you. I've seen you insult many posters on here, calling them all sorts of names. I'm just calling it like I see. You're a person that doesn't know the tradition, but will still shout 'racist' with your fingers in your ears while other people try to explain it's not as simple as that. But okay, I will shove it. Classy B-)

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49 minutes ago, Lio said:

That's funny coming from you. I've seen you insult many posters on here, calling them all sorts of names. I'm just calling it like I see. You're a person that doesn't know the tradition, but will still shout 'racist' with your fingers in your ears while other people try to explain it's not as simple as that. But okay, I will shove it. Classy B-)

"Many" lol. Like who? Say the names. Because the few posters I can recall insulting/calling names are absolute scumbags and you're not privy to the facts and reasons so stay out of it(if you're thinking of who I'm thinking of).

It's pretty fucked up and fake of you to apparently harbor negative feelings toward me all the while pretending to be friendly - until now that is, after I criticise your precious golliwog tradition lmfao.

You turned this discussion into a weird personal thing and said I'm so black and white I lack nuance, which is obviously very insulting(and bullshit, imo :lol: ),  so I told you to shove it - with no nuance, because that's what you apparently want and expect, considering you have spent literally years reading my posts lapping it up instead of having me on ignore.

For the record if you'd spoken to me genuinely I would've listened. I'm sorry you're upset, even though you're being very cranky. Have a nice holiday, peace.

Edited by Oldest Goat

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4 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Elizabeth I of England (r.1558 - 1603) funded and sent mercenaries to the Dutch Revolt against Catholic Spain, thus in more ways than one Evan owe's his arse to England. 

Not really. It's quite complicated, but the region where I was born and raised didn't become officially part of the Netherlands until 1866.

This time-lapse is probably not totally accurate however,

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Not really. It's quite complicated, but the region where I was born and raised didn't become officially part of the Netherlands until 1866.

This time-lapse is probably not totally accurate however,

 

 

 

Still a connection though in that the proto state for the modern Netherlands is the Dutch Republic. 

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6 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

People wanting to abolish something like the naughty list is a clear example of over the top political correctness. People wanting to abolish a retarded tradition of overt undeniable racism is not over the top political correctness. Traditions are at best a scheduled comfort and at worst destructive and blinding. I know exactly where something like this comes from; the meager minds of bigoted fools - choosing to carry it on for amusement and shrug off the reality of the meaning is disappointing to say the least.

I hate political correctness as much as the next person but I wouldn't mindlessly commit myself to that stance.

Stranger on the internet who doesn't know me baselessly decides I'm so black and white I lack nuance? Whatever, shove it lol.

Mygnr should have a naughty list.

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1 minute ago, spunko12345 said:

Mygnr should have a naughty list.

We have. It's called Team Brazil. 

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