Can we comprehend Axl a little better…

[tomfriend]

No, it really doesn't.

[The Archer]

On 8/11/2015 at 2:34 PM, Ender04 said:

When we type him as an INTP?

So, I have been working on this for a while. I curious to know what you think of it, whether it speaks to you or you think its bullocks It’s quite a long text, but if you want to invest in it, here it is:

I’m a big fan of the MBTI, which is a system to type people’s personalities, or better said, it defines the way a person’s mental processes work. It’s largely based on the theories of psychologist Carl Jung in the 1920”. It’s criticized for having no scientific foundation, and still it has been greatly popular for decades already. I use MBTI because in my experience it’s very accurate and useful in understanding myself and others. And sometimes I like to try to type someone famous like Axl. Just trying to get why someone makes the choices he/she makes. And Axl has made some interesting choices.

First I start by saying that the following is all speculation. I have no way of verifying my analyses as I don’t personally know Axl Rose.

I must explain a bit about MBTI before I go on about Axl’s type. If you want to read more, an abbreviate version you can find here: http://www.dec.co.th/mbti_explanation.htm More information is all over de web though.

So, MBTI defines the way a person’s mind works scaling him in four different classes:

What you focus your attention on, or, where do you get your energy from? (this is a nerve system-setting)

 

è Introversion (I), You’ re concentrating on your inner world, you need reflection.

 

è Extraversion (E), You’ re concentrating on the outer world, you need much stimulation.

 

How do you prefer to take in and process information?

 

è Sensing (S), You’re focused on details and what you can actually physically sense , what’s real and in the present.

 

è Intuition (N), You’re focused on possibilities, on relations between things and patterns. You are focused more on the future, on what can be.

How do you make decisions?

 

è Thinking (T), You make decisions based on logic. You’re objective. You like rational analyses

 

è Feeling (F), You make decisions based on how they will impact on you and other people. You seek harmony.

How do you deal with the outside world?

 

è Judging (J), You feel the need to order your world. You live a structured life.

 

è Perceiving (P), You like to keep possibilities open. You improvise your way through life.

I’m not going to explain all of these elaborately here. If you want to see if you agree on my typing of Axl then go for further explanation to above mentioned link.

Some of the clues I based my typing of Axl on:

Axl likes to withdraw from the world (he’s known for being recluse) ->Introversion

Axl likes to express himself in writing (lyrics, posts and public letters) ->Introversion

Axl seems to not much care what his impact is on others -> Thinking

Axl seems to not much care what others think of him -> Thinking

Axl seems to seek truth for himself-> Thinking

Axl seems focused on change and doesn’t want to go back to the past-> Intuition

Axl seems has a good imagination and is verbally creative -> Intuition

Axl is not punctual -> Perceiving

Axl fails to (plan his work and) follow through on his plans -> Perceiving

That’s why INTP.

So, how does that help us understand Axl’s actions better?

I’ll be going a little more specific into the INTP now, for that’s what I think Axl is. The INTP uses the following mind processes in this particular order:

1. Introverted Thinking
2. Extraverted Intuition
3. Introverted Sensing
4. Extraverted Feeling

There are another 4 different functions, but Axl (being an INTP) makes less use of those then the above. Note that the order of the functions is important, as it determines the difference in types.

This is what the above means for Axl:

Introverted Thinking

Introverted Thinking: Axl seeks internal consistency and logic of ideas. He uses deep, implicit and nuances logic to develop and refine methods, strategies or concepts and for making decisions. He trusts his internal framework.

 

This is Axl’s dominant function. It’s easiest to use for him and therefor used the most. Because it is an introverted function people don’t see much of it. But it is doing all the heavy lifting for him. It is a rational, decision-making function inside his head. A very important part of Axl’s life is in fact inside his head. His focus in inward, not outward to the world, and his thoughts are based on rational thought (opposed to feeling a lot of emotions).

 

Extraverted Intuition

Extraverted Intuition: Axl sees possibilities in the external world. Extraverted Intuition scans the world for relationships or patterns within a pool of ideas, facts, or experiences. The INTP makes (unconscious) associations, searches for meaning or possibilities in the data he gathers and trusts his findings.

 

This function supports Axl’s first function. It’s an information-gathering and -processing function. It feeds his Introverted Thinking.

Also it is an extraverted function and therefor visible for the external world. For example, Axl will gather a lot of different observations from different experiences, which he will mentally connect to see a pattern and put it, for instance, in one song (like he did with Better). Another example is the Estranged-video. To most this video weirdly combines a lot of different concepts/associations, but the extraverted Intuitive will see a connection between them all.

 

Axl being an Intuitive opposed to being a Sensor means that he is naturally more focused on what can be then on what is, more focused on the future then the present, and more focused on ideas and relations between things then on the sensory world of what is (taste, smell, sight et cetera).

 

Introverted Sensing

Introverted Sensing: Is about comparing present facts and experiences to past experience. People that use this function trust the past. They store sensory data for future use.

 

Well, Axl is not very good at this for this is only his third function. People’s 3th function is mostly weak and troublesome. It does not develop until midlife because it is not used much and it will never become a strong quality. So really, this is a weak point of Axl.

It means he forgets to use his memory to prevent mistakes he made before (like promising an album release every fucking year!). And he tends not to call on experience much but prefers to try things he did before in a new way. Maybe this is one of the reasons why he is not at all interested in going back to the old GnR lineup?

 

The 3th function is also the relief-function. The INTP can find relief in doing spare time, low pressure, sensory activities, like listening to music, art, petting animals et cetera.

 

Extraverted Feeling

Extraverted Feeling: Seeking harmony with and between people in the outside world. Interpersonal and cultural values are important.

 

As the functions come in order of use, the forth function is the least developed one for the INTP. Axl is non-traditional and is also not focused on harmony and other people’s needs. It’s not to say he doesn’t care about the wellbeing of his loved ones. It’s just that he is not tuned in well to other people’s feelings, nor his own. He needs to be shown clearly what you need from him.

 

Being an extraverted function the outside world is witness of the poor performance. The INTP has no natural focus on the needs, wants and feelings of others. When he is in fact interested to know them (for instance to see is someone is feeling friendly about him) he will find he lackes the skill to actually read people. Making the wrong judgment on people regularly, results in the INTP not trusting his own judgements in these matters at all. But most of the time, the INTP cares much less then other types what goes on with other people, or doesn’t at all.

 

This fourth function is the function that a person is very aware of being weak at. It’s the one which is a regular pitfall and an ongoing struggle. That’s why it is often a personal aspiration to become better at it.

 

I think this description of Axl’s mental processes help us understand a lot about Axl. For example, it explains how:

Axl doesn’t care (about what fans want/need): INTP’s don’t give a rat’s ass if they’re socially acceptable. Extraverted feeling being their forth function they don’t feel much emotionally effected by the needs, wants and opinions of others/the public. So Axl doesn’t become angry fast when criticized.

Axl rants: Since Axl so out of touch with what people think and feel, and since he is not a strong feeler himself (he tends to rationalize instead of paying attention to what he feels), Axl will be overwhelmed when things happen that are unforeseen by him and that are also important and painful enough to trigger a negative emotion. Being an INTP he hasn’t learnt to manage those feelings well. So, if a strong emotion is triggered, it will be expressed without much restraint. Which results in volcanic eruption

Axl is a recluse: Being an Introvert Axl gets his energy from his inner world, his thoughts and ideas. Introverts love to withdraw. They actually need it to regain energy. INTP’s are actually known for often being recluses.

Axl is convinced of his own reality: Aren’t we all? Axl has voiced some of his convictions, for instance on this forum about the (events surrounding the) ownership of the Guns n’ Roses name.

INTP’s inner world will feel so much more real to them then the messy, imprecise outside world. With introverted thinking and extraverted Intuition INTP’s build up their own view of the world. INTP’s are highly intelligent, gather lots of information, use their rational and objective Thinking to carefully weigh all information. Since they put A LOT of thought in developing their views on things it has often been proven to them their ideas were spot on. Therefor INTP’s generally trusts his views/beliefs without hesitation.

Axl is a procrastinator and perfectionist: The endless tinkering…(sigh). I believe that it is something we believe he does. It fits the INTP description perfectly. INTP’s are known for being perfectionists. An INTP knows he always can improve on his own work, if more information/recourses is gathered and more experimenting has taken place (using extraverted Intuition). So that’s the tinkering and also the procrastination. As we all know perfectionism and procrastination go hand-in-hand.

Axl doesn’t plan his action very well: I’m just glad he stopped announcing a new album. His lack of introverted Sensing (using memory to make decisions) led to him announcing CD year after year. It seems he finally learnt from this mistake (and now we give him shit for not announcing ) As a Perceiver he’s probably pretty content now that he can keep his options open.

Axl isn’t punctual: He’s often late, doesn’t want to live by the clock (It surprises me he often wears a watch, but he could be wearing it as being a jewelry). Being a Perceiver he will never like set plans and schedules and he will be forgetful about them. He will prefer to keep his possibilities open as long as possible.

Axl holds grudges: We think he does. It might be that most sore has in fact worn off by now and Axl is simply not interested in renewing old bonds. Obviously some people have triggered intense emotions and trust is gone. Introverted Sensing being a underdeveloped function an INTP tends to forget details of the past and ignore the past while making new decisions. A chance to start fresh… But when pain has been very intense an INTP might not be able to do this. Underdeveloped Feeling might be in the way of emotional healing.

Axl doesn’t want to go back to oldGuns: The fact he doesn’t want to do a reunion probably comes from his preference to find new experiences (besides his grudge towards Slash). It’s not likely for a extraverted Intuitive to be focused on the past and retry old things that have already proven to not work for them. It’s his extraverted Intuition that focusses him on things that can be, rather than on things that already has been. Also his Perceiving strengthens his preference for change and growth.

I will put an end to this here J. If you don’t agree on my analyses, pull it to shreds. I don’t mind, it’s not like I make a living out of this. I’m interested though in why you think I might be wrong. I’m also interested to know whether you think typing Axl as an INTP helps for understanding where Axl’s behavior is coming from.

If you want to go type yourself, there is free tests on the internet that IMO are good enough. Elaborate descriptions of each of the 16 types can be found here:

http://www.16personalities.com/intp-personality

Also note that NOT one type is better than the other, but there is differences in how common a type is. Some types are more common than others. Estimates are about 3,3% of US-population is INTP.

Interesting hypothesis. You must however already know that MBTI (i.e., the authentic, formally administered version which is based exclusively on the Jungian school of Analytical Psychology which has been around for more than a 100 years) and which has data collected from over 40 years of assessments and about a century of history* , enabling it to very gradually refine and titrate its questionnaires for precision over time), is a personality assessment (not test) of individual preferences, and not traits. So, the only way to know what Axl's true MBTI type is, would be for him to take the assessment, and share the results with us.

The issue with websites like 16personalities and any number of other random faux MBTI 'tests', which give the genuine MBTI assessment a bad name, is that they are based on alternative schools of thought, which maintain that observed and demonstrated traits are a better indicator of an individual's psychology. I think that this approach, developed by poseurs whose work was never based on any kind of a painstakingly developed and empirically tested theoretical framework of the sort created by Jung, is just psychobabble. It has lead to the ludicrous classifications, that you see on the internet, of living and long dead people, who never took the MBTI assessment, as being one type or another. Really, how does an armchair psychologist have the gall to posit that George Washington was an ISTJ and that Alexander the Great was an ENTP and that Jesus was an INFJ? How much more bizarre can you get by maintaining that nations have 'types' - that America is more 'Intuitive', that Brazil is more 'Thinking' and Nigeria is more 'introverted'? Really, the fucking bullshit that utterly destroys the credibility of what is, despite some shortcomings, actually a remarkable, long used and useful tool for gaining a better understanding of individual behavior. The idiocies of the sort that even go so far as to claim that Superman is an ISFJ and that Tarzan is an ESTP. Appalling. 16personalities in particular, is a front for 'the big 5' classification system, the recent fad going around. Most of the other fake tests are all rooted in the basic traits-focused error of the original Keirsey heresies.

This is not to take away from the effort and thought that you put into your analysis. You gathered sufficient evidence and structured your argument well. Its weakness however is that just as the trait based personality tests do, it works backwards by choosing which preference-dichotomies are representative of Axl's cognitive functions, based on his observed traits, and not on his actual preferences that have been recorded as having been expressed or stated. Further, this approach has the in-built error of extrapolating the cognitive functions (introverted sensing, extraverted intuition etc.) based on the assumed representative preferences (E vs I, T vs F etc). MBTI actually works the other way round - it assesses the order of precedence of the cognitive functions by evaluating preferences in behavior and thought. The arrangement of the four alphabets that make up the acronyms (ISFP, ESTJ etc) for the different MBTI types, while representing the preference dichotomies, merely reports the assessment's classification of the cognitive functions (as dominant, auxillary, tertiary, inferior).

However, if you were to follow the approach that you've taken, and consider trait over preference, to construct Axl's personality type, you might want to reconsider two of your conclusions -

Firstly, before concluding that Axl being late to shows, makes him a 'P' and not a 'J', you need to look at the larger picture. With apologies to any Ps reading this, Axl is if anything, fucking decisive and if anything, that would make him a 'J' and not a 'P'. He might be a perfectionist and take his time in doing some things (CD), but he does do things on what appears to his own schedule. He clarified this on the forum when he said that he's always been 'ON' only after midnight, ever since his boyhood days when he would sneak out of the house, and that he always preferred to start the shows at 12:00 AM even with old Guns. The position that people who are late are by default 'P's also discounts the possibility of potential psychological disorders that can impair time management, which MBTI simply cannot account for. For instance, all 16 MBTI types are equally liable to have anxiety, or bipolar disorder, or ADHD, or BPD - impairing their natural preferences, but without changing them. ( In fact, as I have mentioned in the 'Axl's personality' thread in civil war, information about any such issues, would probably clarify many of his actions, which are unfathomable and frustrating to many people, much better). Further, as far as I can recollect, Axl's stated preferences on how he likes things run and how he approaches everything, show that he really isn't very flexible. Hardly the hallmark of a 'P' type. 

Secondly, as far as T vs F goes, while Axl certainly displays characteristics of high intelligence and can articulate rational thought processes, these are not indications of him being 'T' over 'F' (In fact, they probably just display a bias towards introverted thinking rather than extraverted thinking, but I digress...). If anything, it would seem from available evidence that Axl acts against the rational option and that he has displayed a bias towards expressing very powerful emotional, empathetic and sensitive qualities ( if you can look past displays of socially unacceptable behavior that were rooted in formative influences that were to put it mildly, challenging) . While you've noted that he possesses extraverted feeling, the matter in question is the order of precedence among the cognitive functions. Going by traits, it would seem that Axl prefers 'F' over 'T'.

Your choices of I over E and N over S, if based on the traits displayed by available evidence, are sound.

So, what does that lead to - I over E, N over S, F over T, J over P.

INFJ.

The rarest of rare types. Supposedly, the type representing ~1% of the population.

As already indicated, I'm not at all a fan of typing dead or imagined personalities based on traits. But, since that is valid according to the traits based approach to categorizing type, which is the method being followed by this exercise, Axl shares his type with those rare transcendent, prophetic, world conquering, mesmerizing figures who are conjectured to be INFJs - Adolf Hitler, Mahatma Gandhi and Yeshua son of Miriam, aka known as the Christ. 

HALLELUJAH!!! YES, my fellow Axlites ( or rather, the more extreme among you), you've always been right. Axl IS Jesus. 

On 8/12/2015 at 1:35 AM, sanity_lost said:

The good ol' Myers-Brigg personality test... I think every time I took that (had to do it multiple times due to various classes) I got a different result. I am pretty sure it wasn't because my personality kept changing. I also had to do the Keirsey Temperament test at least once for a class (I remember this one because it was much more flattering, but I wasn't so sure I agreed with the description). Then, of course, there are the many bastardized versions of those I've seen due to "professional development" (my favorite was finding out what color I was and the fake tarot card that went with it- who wouldn't want their personality represented by a little pointy hatted person on brightly colored paper?).

That aside.... it looks like you put a lot of work into this and I appreciate it. I find psychology fascinating and will find it interesting if a good discussion comes out of this.

The temperament sorter is bullshit. Keirsey was the originator of all the fuckery that led to people being psychologically typed according to the traits they display (or in the case of dead and imaginary people, have displayed), without considering their own behavioral preferences. I won't even go to Kerisey's ridiculous theories about the links between mental disorders and psychological type.

MBTI's strength is that it is based on the principle that an individual is best placed to assess their own personal preferences. Its weakness is that when individuals attempt to characterize their preferences, they can sometimes be dishonest because they think that they should be something they are not, and they can sometimes be deluded by thinking they are what they are not, and they can simply be misguided by themselves, by assuming that a recent or forced deviation from the norm represents their true inclinations. if the assessment is taken objectively, without being influenced by aberrations and distractions, it should provide consistent results. This doesn't indicate that the framework denies that people change - in fact, it puts forward the explanation that as people gain more experience and grow older, they develop the inferior functions that @Ender04 referred to and these round out their personalities or balance their inclinations to act in certain ways.

Anyhow, without any hypotheses about Axl's or everyone's favorite Smurf's MBTI type, it would be interesting to have an MBTI/type theory thread, in which people interested in this sort of thing can post the results of their assessments, as well as discuss type theory. I'll start one in Anything Goes.

Edited July 27, 2017 by The Archer
Edited for clarity

[killuridols]

On 1/7/2016 at 2:15 PM, The Archer said:

Interesting hypothesis. You must however already know that MBTI (i.e., the authentic, formally administered version which is based exclusively on the Jungian school of Analytical Psychology which has been around for more than a 100 years) and which has data collected from over 40 years of assessments and about a century of , enabling it to very gradually refine and titrate its questionnaires for precision over time), is a personality assessment (not test) of individual preferences, and not traits. So, the only way to know what Axl's true MBTI type is, would be for him to take the assessment, and share the results with us.

The issue with websites like 16personalities and any number of other random faux MBTI 'tests', which give the genuine MBTI assessment a bad name, is that they are based on alternative schools of thought, which maintain that observed and demonstrated traits are a better indicator of an individual's psychology. I think that this approach, developed by poseurs whose work was never based on any kind of a painstakingly developed and empirically tested theoretical framework of the sort created by Jung, is just psychobabble. It has lead to the ludicrous classifications, that you see on the internet, of living and long dead people, who never took the MBTI assessment, as being one type or another. Really, how does an armchair psychologist have the gall to posit that George Washington was an ISTJ and that Alexander the Great was an ENTP and that Jesus was an INFJ? How much more bizarre can you get by maintaining that nations have 'types' - that America is more 'Intuitive', that Brazil is more 'Thinking' and Nigeria is more 'introverted'? Really, the fucking bullshit that utterly destroys the credibility of what is, despite some shortcomings, actually a remarkable, long used and useful tool for gaining a better understanding of individual behavior. The idiocies of the sort that even go so far as to claim that Superman is an ISFJ and that Tarzan is an ESTP. Appalling. 16personalities in particular, is a front for 'the big 5' classification system, the recent fad going around. Most of the other fake tests are all rooted in the basic traits-focused error of the original Keirsey heresies.

This is not to take away from the effort and thought that you put into your analysis. You gathered sufficient evidence and structured your argument well. Its weakness however is that just as the trait based personality tests do, it works backwards by choosing which preference-dichotomies are representative of Axl's cognitive functions, based on his observed traits, and not on his actual preferences that have been recorded as having been expressed or stated. Further, this approach has the in-built error of extrapolating the cognitive functions (introverted sensing, extraverted intuition etc.) based on the assumed representative preferences (E vs I, T vs F etc). MBTI actually works the other way round - it assesses the order of precedence of the cognitive functions by evaluating preferences in behavior and thought. The arrangement of the four alphabets that make up the acronyms (ISFP, ESTJ etc) for the different MBTI types, while representing the preference dichotomies, merely reports the assessment's classification of the cognitive functions (as dominant, auxillary, tertiary, inferior).

However, if you were to follow the approach that you've taken, and consider trait over preference, to construct Axl's personality type, you might want to reconsider two of your conclusions -

Firstly, before concluding that Axl being late to shows, makes him a 'P' and not a 'J', you need to look at the larger picture. With apologies to any Ps reading this, Axl is if anything, fucking decisive and if anything, that would make him a 'J' and not a 'P'. He might be a perfectionist and take his time in doing some things (CD), but he does do things on what appears to his own schedule. He clarified this on the forum when he said that he's always been 'ON' only after midnight, ever since his boyhood days when he would sneak out of the house, and that he always preferred to start the shows at 12:00 AM even with old Guns. The position that people who are late are by default 'P's also discounts the possibility of potential psychological disorders that can impair time management, which MBTI simply cannot account for. For instance, all 16 MBTI types are equally liable to have anxiety, or bipolar disorder, or ADHD, or BPD - impairing their natural preferences, but without changing them. ( In fact, as I have mentioned in the 'Axl's personality' thread in civil war, information about any such issues, would probably clarify many of his actions, which are unfathomable and frustrating to many people, much better). Further, as far as I can recollect, Axl's stated preferences on how he likes things run and how he approaches everything, show that he really isn't very flexible. Hardly the hallmark of a 'P' type. 

Secondly, as far as T vs F goes, while Axl certainly displays characteristics of high intelligence and can articulate rational thought processes, these are not indications of him being 'T' over 'F' (In fact, they probably just display a bias towards introverted thinking rather than extraverted thinking, but I digress...). If anything, it would seem from available evidence that Axl acts against the rational option and that he has displayed a bias towards expressing very powerful emotional, empathetic and sensitive qualities ( if you can look past displays of socially unacceptable behavior that were rooted in formative influences that were to put it mildly, challenging) . While you've noted that he possesses extraverted feeling, the matter in question is the order of precedence among the cognitive functions. Going by traits, it would seem that Axl prefers 'F' over 'T'.

Your choices of I over E and N over S, if based on the traits displayed by available evidence, are sound.

So, what does that lead to - I over E, N over S, F over T, J over P.

INFJ.

The rarest of rare types. Supposedly, the type representing ~1% of the population.

As already indicated, I'm not at all a fan of typing dead or imagined personalities based on traits. But, since that is valid according to the traits based approach to categorizing type, which is the method being followed by this exercise, Axl shares his type with those rare transcendent, prophetic, world conquering, mesmerizing figures who are conjectured to be INFJs - Adolf Hitler, Mahatma Gandhi and Yeshua son of Miriam, aka known as the Christ. 

HALLELUJAH!!! YES, my fellow Axlites ( or rather, the more extreme among you), you've always been right. Axl IS Jesus. 

The temperament sorter is bullshit. Keirsey was the originator of all the fuckery that led to people being psychologically typed according to the traits they display (or in the case of dead and imaginary people, have displayed), without considering their own behavioral preferences. I won't even go to Kerisey's ridiculous theories about the links between mental disorders and psychological type.

MBTI's strength is that it is based on the principle that an individual is best placed to assess their own personal preferences. Its weakness is that when individuals attempt to characterize their preferences, they can sometimes be dishonest because they think that they should be something they are not, and they can sometimes be deluded by thinking they are what they are not, and they can simply be misguided by themselves, by assuming that a recent or forced deviation from the norm represents their true inclinations. if the assessment is taken objectively, without being influenced by aberrations and distractions, it should provide consistent results. This doesn't indicate that the framework denies that people change - in fact, it puts forward the explanation that as people gain more experience and grow older, they develop the inferior functions that @Ender04 referred to and these round out their personalities or balance their inclinations to act in certain ways.

Anyhow, without any hypotheses about Axl's or everyone's favorite Smurf's MBTI type, it would be interesting to have an MBTI/type theory thread, in which people interested in this sort of thing can post the results of their assessments, as well as discuss type theory. I'll start one in Anything Goes.

I've taken this test under a professional environment. I think it's not bad at all and it represents me very much, even though that was a long time ago. I'd love to take it again because I feel some things may have changed within me in this extensive period of time and even though the first two letters of my results I think will never change, I'm doubting about the last two.

As for trying to type Axl, I disagree. I know the purpose of the thread is to have fun and experiment a bit, nothing wrong but any result shared here I will call it bs because there's no way someone can take the test for you. I've taken it and I know how personal it is. None of us here know Axl and even if we knew him very well, that wouldn't be enough to respond the questions for him.

Still, I don't think Axl would get the Introvert type. He seems nothing like an introvert. That type could never put up with a TB around them and all that gang of people that constitutes his "camp" are nothing what an Introvert would like to be around. Also, being a recluse does not equal being introverted. There lots of misconceptions regarding introverts that it sucks, people associate it too much to negative things that are not there at all.

Finally, when Axl was asked about his normal life out of the road by Sir David Lang, he called him recluse (again, prejudice) and Axl denied it. He hates to be called recluse. He said he just didn't go to where media and paparazzi are. He went everywhere else, so that doesn't make him a recluse.

 

[Ender04]

On 3-7-2016 at 8:28 PM, killuridols said:

He seems nothing like an introvert. That type could never put up with a TB around them and all that gang of people that constitutes his "camp" are nothing what an Introvert would like to be around.

I don not think only an extravert would be able to tolerate TB. 'Cause that is basically what you're saying here.

In MBTI Introversion isn't a type, it's one of the elements that defines a type. It defines where a person puts his attention and where he get his energy from (eighter his own inner world, or the outer world) http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/extraversion-or-introversion.htm

I think Axl shows more characteristics of being a Introvert than of being an extravert. To me he seems to be an INTP. But yes, that's MY interpretation of who he is.

He has clearly stated he doesn't identify with the label of 'recluse'. So there my evidence was indeed weak 

Here's a description of the traits of INTP's, for who's interested:

http://myersbriggspersonalitytypes.tumblr.com/post/49607031624/intp-traits-the-thinkers

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by Ender04
typo

[killuridols]

16 minutes ago, Ender04 said:

I don not think only an extravert would be able to tolerate TB. 'Cause that is basically what you're saying here.

In MBTI Introversion isn't a type, it's one of the elements that defines a type. It defines where a person puts his attention and where he get his energy from (eighter his own inner world, or the outer world) http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/extraversion-or-introversion.htm

I think Axl shows more characteristics of being a Introvert than of being an extravert. To me he seems to be an INTP. But yes, that's MY interpretation of who he is.

He has clearly stated he doesn't identify with the label of 'recluse'. So there my evidence was indeed weak 

Here's a description of the traits of INTP's, for who's interesed:

http://myersbriggspersonalitytypes.tumblr.com/post/49607031624/intp-traits-the-thinkers

I think I know well how an introvert acts and feels and I tell you a person like that will never have a camp like TB around them (or any other camp). Ever.

As for the INTP being Axl, I guess I don't agree with it or at least I think he doesn't match some of the description:

- Generally laid-back and easy-going
- Not personally threatened by conflict or criticism
- Not demanding, have simple needs
- Have no desire to control others
- Very tolerant and flexible in most situations
- Unlikely to strive for traditional goals such as popularity or security

Besides, an Introvert could never face and command audiences of 60,000 people. The amount of people he has to meet and face everytime he goes on tour is a task an introvert could never do or they would die at trying.

Edited July 4, 2016 by killuridols

[sanity_lost]

On 7/4/2016 at 3:22 PM, killuridols said:

I think I know well how an introvert acts and feels and I tell you a person like that will never have a camp like TB around them (or any other camp). Ever.

 Can you explain this? The never have a camp like TB around them (or any other camp) bit. I completely disagree with this, but I am not sure if our disagreement is over our understanding of the introversion type. 

My understanding is that whether you are an introvert or extrovert has more to do with who you are and not the people you surround yourself with.

Edited July 6, 2016 by sanity_lost

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, sanity_lost said:

 Can you explain this? The never have a camp like TB around them (or any other camp) bit. I completely disagree with this, but I am not sure if our disagreement is over our understanding of the introversion type. 

My understanding is that whether you are an introvert or extrovert has more to do with who you are and not the people you surround yourself with.

An introvert type likes to be alone most of the time. What we usually call "loners". The social world exhaust them very quickly.

TB are partyers, like to drink, smoke, stay up until 8am and chat with lots of people. An introvert could never put up with that lifestyle. Introverts would never fit a world like Axl's.

Introverts can have friends, be cool, go out and stuff BUT they can't really spend long hours socializing with a group of people.

Introverts prefer spending time with themselves, in their minds, creating magic worlds or daydreaming, rather than actually doing things.

Life on the road, going from country to country or staying in hotels, sleeping in a different bed everynight, that's not something an introvert could tolerate.

That inestability would kill an introvert's soul.

http://www.magicaldaydream.com/2013/06/the-introvert-brain-explained.html

 

 

[sanity_lost]

56 minutes ago, killuridols said:

An introvert type likes to be alone most of the time. What we usually call "loners". The social world exhaust them very quickly.

TB are partyers, like to drink, smoke, stay up until 8am and chat with lots of people. An introvert could never put up with that lifestyle. Introverts would never fit a world like Axl's.

Introverts can have friends, be cool, go out and stuff BUT they can't really spend long hours socializing with a group of people.

Introverts prefer spending time with themselves, in their minds, creating magic worlds or daydreaming, rather than actually doing things.

Life on the road, going from country to country or staying in hotels, sleeping in a different bed everynight, that's not something an introvert could tolerate.

That inestability would kill an introvert's soul.

http://www.magicaldaydream.com/2013/06/the-introvert-brain-explained.html

 

 

 That is not much different than the one I am familiar with, it is just taken to the extreme. I just don't think the world is quite so black and white. You can like being on your own and doing things by yourself and also be comfortable in socializing and like being around other people. One introvert might only be able to take tiny doses of socialization. Another introvert could could hang with their family/friends and friends of friends all night long chatting away/partying and get a lot of enjoyment out of it. A completely different introvert could have a blast at a party with a bunch of strangers and only one close friend where the previous two people in the same situation may have immediately began pounding their "get out" button. The same with extroverts. You can have an extrovert who can't stand being alone for a minute. Then you can have one who enjoys a little bit of solitude  every so often- not to mention time to her self to read a good book and watch a good movie.

 

[killuridols]

7 hours ago, sanity_lost said:

 That is not much different than the one I am familiar with, it is just taken to the extreme. I just don't think the world is quite so black and white. You can like being on your own and doing things by yourself and also be comfortable in socializing and like being around other people. One introvert might only be able to take tiny doses of socialization. Another introvert could could hang with their family/friends and friends of friends all night long chatting away/partying and get a lot of enjoyment out of it. A completely different introvert could have a blast at a party with a bunch of strangers and only one close friend where the previous two people in the same situation may have immediately began pounding their "get out" button. The same with extroverts. You can have an extrovert who can't stand being alone for a minute. Then you can have one who enjoys a little bit of solitude  every so often- not to mention time to her self to read a good book and watch a good movie.

Of course there is variety in the range, not like everybody's gonna be exactly the same. The I in the MTBI test is just one part of the person, there you get all kinds of combinations. But I think in general, an Introvert will tend to look to spend much more time alone, on their own, rather than with other people. This doesnt mean they can't socialize, they can and they can be normal at it, just not something they will choose as a primary activity.

[annablue]

I'm INFP and most of my favourite musicians are rumoured to be IN_ _. Also common in our group are damaged childhoods for whatever reason... I think he could be INFJ. Maybe when he's on hiatus he can take the test and get back to us @Dexter My results haven't changed from when I was 16 and took the test in school to a few years ago when I did it again. A lot of people confuse Introvert for Shy which isn't necessarily the case. Personally I have a group of people that I feel I can be myself around and of course animals of all kinds speak my language, outside of that I'm less comfortable. Many musicians and actors are introverted so for the naysayers there's a lot of info out there on it if you're interested. I'm in a few online groups with others of my type and we often share the same characteristics and even speech patterns even down to having a certain look to our eyes. I don't believe the MBTI is bullshit at all. Usually the believers are in the IN_ _ category. 

I feel like he's more of a feeler than you give him credit for. He wouldn't be able to write some of the lyrics he's had otherwise. I've always felt that he cared deeply what others thought of him (yes even us), almost paralyzingly so.

 

[shjtjustgotreal]

jesus chroist

[Alja]

On 31. 7. 2016 at 4:21 AM, annablue said:

I'm INFP and most of my favourite musicians are rumoured to be IN_ _. Also common in our group are damaged childhoods for whatever reason... I think he could be INFJ. Maybe when he's on hiatus he can take the test and get back to us @Dexter My results haven't changed from when I was 16 and took the test in school to a few years ago when I did it again. A lot of people confuse Introvert for Shy which isn't necessarily the case. Personally I have a group of people that I feel I can be myself around and of course animals of all kinds speak my language, outside of that I'm less comfortable. Many musicians and actors are introverted so for the naysayers there's a lot of info out there on it if you're interested. I'm in a few online groups with others of my type and we often share the same characteristics and even speech patterns even down to having a certain look to our eyes. I don't believe the MBTI is bullshit at all. Usually the believers are in the IN_ _ category. 

I feel like he's more of a feeler than you give him credit for. He wouldn't be able to write some of the lyrics he's had otherwise. I've always felt that he cared deeply what others thought of him (yes even us), almost paralyzingly so.

 

INTP here! (or border INTP/J, I went from more J to more P as I grew older,also I got more F). I liked MBTI because as a rare type I was like... I`m not fault, I`m rare! (INT in ESF family). It`s a bit like horoscope, it depends which one yo pick. But I like it anyway, it helped me to understand some things. If it`s stupid, but it works, it ain`t stupid. 

I`m total introvert cleverly disguised in exhibitionism, which allows me to perform and enjoy it and I have overall bold presence easy to remember (there is massive difference between performing to an audience and mingling around, to mention). Otherwise I need lots of private space. If you are intelligent enough, you can always find how to get on with the situation and find strategies which work for you. I can introvert-party like Axl (throw a party and then sit in a corner and watch people. Or pick one person and have a long talk. Or just leave early and let people party). I enjoy living on a road and exploring new places. Trick is to maintain some private space, like separate room or space to roam around and not being disturbed. Actually people in my circle know this and protect me from time to time against unnecessary socialization. They may be social AF, just respect me. So I think it`s more about how much people know and respect you than who is introvert and who is extrovert. Keeping same people around works. Some people on road carry little things which they install as soon as they arrive in hotel room to make it a personal space. Requiring private backstage space to be installed always the same way is another. 

@Ender04 Of course Axl being INTP/J would sound good to me, but as far as I know it from inside, he does not function this way. 

At first, INT is a very "masculine" trait. Like... preference of thinking makes me, a woman, kind of androgynous. It`s really not usual for a woman to rationally find holes in your thinking and shred your argument on a spot or be analytical when emotions are all around. Yet it does not give complete information, it is completed by feelings perception, but in Thinkers it`s acquired skill. Exploring situation with feelings, antennas, and empathy to get what`s going on as first is preferably feminine trait and makes androgynous impression in men. Axl seem to me being sometimes immersed in environment to the extend he can`t bound himself. (this can lead to overwhelming and outbursts). Also insane songwriting and performing skills and ability to connect with audience. Strong ability to analyze with feelings is pretty witchy stuff, they feel you or the place or situation before you even notice. 

To sum it up: Thinkers dive into situation with cold and analytic mind, this may even appear "emotionless". I can use my antennas, but they are preciously trained acquired skill - and I analyze the shit even from this output. Advantage of this is that it`s not easy to immerse me into drama and I can analyze when others go full-blown emotional or panic. Different from feelers, unable to set borders between them and environment, thinkers set them usually easily. I have emotions, but usually it`s lower stream and it`s deep and strong and can be wild and destructive. I can raise intense emotion, I`m not afraid of it. Feelers work in opposite manner - they can be deeply analytic if they manage to hear their brains (I work with concept that Axl is both very intelligent and emotional).

For me INFP fits Axl the best.

I think he`s caring after all (and onstage he made me profoundly feel that he cares in that moment) but with his all-or-nothing nature he either cares too much or nothing at all - or appear like that, depends. 

Damaged childhood: people who come from volatile households, where the danger that situation will twist and they will suffer (and as children they can`t do anything with it) is constantly present, can make them super-sensitive to people`s subtle signals. When they also have some performing talent, they (un)consciously use this ability to click with other players and audience and make the performance better flowing and adapted to present situation. Also art is a way to make something worthy out of your feelings - even profound damage.

*note: animals and little kids are driven towards me. (Also weird and damaged people)

Edited April 23, 2018 by Alja