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US Politics/Elections Thread

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39 minutes ago, Georgy Zhukov said:

 

Yes and a little racist. No matter how you try and defend yourself, you are still racist. 

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Edited by Download

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7 hours ago, Download said:

Are you saying I'm alt-right? Wow! What an intellectually lazy position. Do you just sit around and wait for a received opinion? 

According to Swedish national council for crime prevention (BRA)  between 2006-2016 overall crime is down while rape is up 50%. That's not a made up statistic. 

So I just made that up because I don't like brown people? Oh please. Yes, America will have the same thing Sweden is having because we don't want to be labeled alt-right or fear of brown people.

How about we don't want American women raped? And calling me a racist wont change that thought. 

And stating that the Nordic countries aren't as Homogeneous "As I might think" really isn't saying anything. Are they more homogenous than America? Ill answer for you, Yes, they are. To pretend racial demographics doesn't play into the success of the Nordic model means you haven't thought about it much. 

I believe this is where your statistic comes from. Between 2014 and 2016 (the last year the data was published) the rate at which citizens were exposed to rape increased by roughly 50%. SoulMonster correctly noted Sweden has changed its definition on what falls under rape several times in recent years. And from some quick Googling, it looks like they're about to again, so another shift in the figures is possible.

I tried to find data on convicted offenders, but Sweden doesn't track this, and hasn't in recent years:

Quote

"In 1991 when the centre-right government decided it wanted to get rid of Statistics Sweden (SCB) – which was seen as an expression of social democracy – they moved the responsibility for statistics to different bodies, which meant crime statistics were moved to the National Council on Crime Prevention (Brå). At that point the stats we spoke about earlier disappeared."

A right leaning government didn't see the value in tracking this data - perhaps it's more nuanced than that, I am very unfamiliar with this history and Swedish political protocols. This article goes into more details, and while I haven't read the whole thing I still don't feel it was wise to cease collecting the information. Regardless, the data doesn't exist. So asserting a correlation between rising immigration and rape rates is causation, is problematic.

We had a public example of this play out a few years ago, though. Julian Assange was charged with rape in Sweden because he lied about using a condom (or something like that). The case was dropped eventually and I didn't really follow it, but this is a real example of how the changed definition could have affected the statistics.

7 hours ago, soon said:

In the US, citizens commit crimes at higher rates than undocumented immigrants.

Fact.

6 hours ago, Download said:

Its easy to want the same thing if you're all the same thing. Its easy to be collective when they all share a lot in common. 

Finland is about the size of Missouri and Illinois with about 5 million people. Every Finnish political party supports a welfare state, broadly speaking. And there all for high taxation that makes that possible. Theres also a lot of confidence in the political system. 

Im not even going to entertain racism. Am I wrong? Maybe? Does it come from me thinking Whites are better than another race? No. 

These use to be conversations that were had before we were told that we cant have them. 

You're not saying it's because whites are better, but if I'm reading correctly, your argument is diverse populations are too different in what they desire for elements of a social democracy to be effective in the US?

What people want generally comes down to the same thing, regardless of demographics: health and happiness for themselves and their families. Disagreements start past that and revolve around how to achieve it, but the common desire is there.

12 hours ago, Georgy Zhukov said:

It's propaganda the alt-right uses to "prove" that immigrants aka "brown people" are serial rapists. 

While I agree with this sentence, I don't think he is racist or an "alt-right" person. He seems pretty "regular right" to me. Meaning race has been presented to him in a dishonest way by the entities which dominate conservative discourse and perhaps a bit of pop culture as well.

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1 hour ago, Download said:

And that's really it right there, I don't disagree with anything you really said. I'm not against immigration, but I am very against illegal immigration for a multitude of reasons. I get all of the reasons why we have it, but I don't feel our government is on the up and up about it. I don't really like the Republicans approach and the Democrats make me want to jump out of a window. I grew up in the 90's on MTV and SNL, so I would consider myself very much on the left on most social issues. 

Globalization, Immigration, and Technology and how we deal with those things are mainly what im concerned about, and I'm starting to get really concerned about speech. 

I don't really see that immigration is such a big threat to the US. Not today at least. Seems like you have pretty much control. As much as one can. Of course, Trump, as the populist he is, taps into this strange fear and creates an even larger hysteria around it. Like that caravan nonsense of his. And the Wall. People are being duped against a common enemy that really isn't a huge threat. And it takes away focus from real threats, like climate. It is sad, really. So sad.

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23 minutes ago, OmarBradley said:

 

While I agree with this sentence, I don't think he is racist or an "alt-right" person. He seems pretty "regular right" to me. Meaning race has been presented to him in a dishonest way by the entities which dominate conservative discourse and perhaps a bit of pop culture as well.

In a dishonest way? :lol:

Racism doesn't really track with me, im old enough to form my own opinions. I may be fiscally conservative, but I'm also a big believer in personal responsibility, and I believe people have the obligation and not the government. If I was president the budget would go down, not up. 

I have a hard time believing Trump is a threat to democracy and racism is somehow worse than it was in 1960. Spare me. Racist White people weren't coming out of the woods chanting "TRUMP!" "TRUMP!" because they had to stop a WHITE lady from taking the office. Obama won the popular vote twice and he won southern states both times in winning. I don't want to hear the racism bullshit. Of course racism exists but shouting racism solves what? I mean the conversation is pretty much over at the point the racist card is pulled.  The problems are way more nuanced and the issue with the conversation is somebody says "x" so therefore they must believe "y" and that's where my patience runs thin. Its surface level though on both sides. You say people want the same thing regardless of demographics? How do you figure? I couldn't disagree more. Maybe so on a macro level but as far as governance?  I see nothing to support that claim. 

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2 hours ago, Download said:

 

In a dishonest way? :lol:

Racism doesn't really track with me, im old enough to form my own opinions. I may be fiscally conservative, but I'm also a big believer in personal responsibility, and I believe people have the obligation and not the government. If I was president the budget would go down, not up. 

I have a hard time believing Trump is a threat to democracy and racism is somehow worse than it was in 1960. Spare me. Racist White people weren't coming out of the woods chanting "TRUMP!" "TRUMP!" because they had to stop a WHITE lady from taking the office. Obama won the popular vote twice and he won southern states both times in winning. I don't want to hear the racism bullshit. Of course racism exists but shouting racism solves what? I mean the conversation is pretty much over at the point the racist card is pulled.  The problems are way more nuanced and the issue with the conversation is somebody says "x" so therefore they must believe "y" and that's where my patience runs thin. Its surface level though on both sides. You say people want the same thing regardless of demographics? How do you figure? I couldn't disagree more. Maybe so on a macro level but as far as governance?  I see nothing to support that claim. 

Is racism worse than it was in 1960? Hard to quantify, it's definitely not as overt as it was throughout the 20th century. Anecdotally, I think race relations have deteriorated in recent years. Data on hate crimes and various other metrics back this up. 

Racist people were indeed coming out of the woodwork to support Trump, because not only are they racist, but they are either misogynist or too stubborn to see through the lies about Hillary (though, while I do think she gets a lot of undeserved criticism, I'm not a fan of hers overall). Literally, neo-Nazis and white supremacists adore Trump and are emboldened to act by his rhetoric - if you can't see that, your head is buried far into the sand.  

Just because Obama won southern states and the popular vote doesn't mean racism doesn't exist. People are very fickle and racism doesn't have to be a constant. Intensity of racism can change depending on circumstances, like a president who actively stokes racial tensions and a police force which at times over-applies force against non-white suspects resulting in people (sometimes completely innocent people) being hurt or killed.

Like I said, I don't think you are a racist person and I pushed back on that assertion when someone else made it. But socioeconomic issues and race are related (perhaps even intertwined) in America, that is inescapable. You cannot genuinely address income inequality/inequity, access to education, access to healthcare, etc. without considering race. Racism may be too strong of a word to apply 100% of the time, I think 'xenophobia' is more accurate for a lot of people. It's not necessarily about race, but the fact that someone else is different from oneself. And animal psychology makes us weary of those we don't know who are different, but this is not because we want different things (and it certainly doesn't help that some actors purposefully spin data and stories to label and define groups). 

Yes, agreed as far as governance people want different things. But that's consistent with what I said. What I described is not a view or perspective or position, it's the desire to live a decent life. Pretty much every human desires that. I'm not sure what your assertion that different races want different things means. The situation is that well-off white people (and mindbogglingly, some middle class and even poor white people) are against exploring programs that would benefit various groups of people. Yes,underserved communities would ideally be most affected, but the benefits from some of these policies would be enjoyed by all. Will it cost you more in tax than you currently pay? Maybe. Would the savings on education, healthcare, and other benefits be worth the cost of higher taxes and/or redistributed federal spending? Maybe. But we have to look into it to find out. Discounting this endeavor because "but socialism!" is asinine. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, OmarBradley said:

Is racism worse than it was in 1960? Hard to quantify, it's definitely not as overt as it was throughout the 20th century. Anecdotally, I think race relations have deteriorated in recent years. Data on hate crimes and various other metrics back this up. 

Racist people were indeed coming out of the woodwork to support Trump, because not only are they racist, but they are either misogynist or too stubborn to see through the lies about Hillary (though, while I do think she gets a lot of undeserved criticism, I'm not a fan of hers overall). Literally, neo-Nazis and white supremacists adore Trump and are emboldened to act by his rhetoric - if you can't see that, your head is buried far into the sand.  

Just because Obama won southern states and the popular vote doesn't mean racism doesn't exist. People are very fickle and racism doesn't have to be a constant. Intensity of racism can change depending on circumstances, like a president who actively stokes racial tensions and a police force which at times over-applies force against non-white suspects resulting in people (sometimes completely innocent people) being hurt or killed.

Like I said, I don't think you are a racist person and I pushed back on that assertion when someone else made it. But socioeconomic issues and race are related (perhaps even intertwined) in America, that is inescapable. You cannot genuinely address income inequality/inequity, access to education, access to healthcare, etc. without considering race. Racism may be too strong of a word to apply 100% of the time, I think 'xenophobia' is more accurate for a lot of people. It's not necessarily about race, but the fact that someone else is different from oneself. And animal psychology makes us weary of those we don't know who are different, but this is not because we want different things (and it certainly doesn't help that some actors purposefully spin data and stories to label and define groups). 

Yes, agreed as far as governance people want different things. But that's consistent with what I said. What I described is not a view or perspective or position, it's the desire to live a decent life. Pretty much every human desires that. I'm not sure what your assertion that different races want different things means. The situation is that well-off white people (and mindbogglingly, some middle class and even poor white people) are against exploring programs that would benefit various groups of people. Yes,underserved communities would ideally be most affected, but the benefits from some of these policies would be enjoyed by all. Will it cost you more in tax than you currently pay? Maybe. Would the savings on education, healthcare, and other benefits be worth the cost of higher taxes and/or redistributed federal spending? Maybe. But we have to look into it to find out. Discounting this endeavor because "but socialism!" is asinine. 

 

 

 

Do you see the box you put yourself in? 

People are fickle and racism doesn’t have to be constant? So that comment dismisses the strides this country has made since the civil rights movement. The quiet racists voted in Obama twice? Quiet non constant racism? 

Neo-Nazi’s adore Trump? What, all 17 of them? How many Neo Nazi’s are there in the states?  I can’t believe I don’t see more of them. 

Hate crimes on the rise? Hate crimes towards whom? Blacks, LGBT, Muslims? What about anti-Semitic hate crimes not done by a neo-nazi? Who tops the list of hate crimes? I’m aware of the data points.

How many crimes does Hillary Clinton have to commit? I don’t even want to type her name for fear of being Seth Rich’d

The problem is everything is handled just like the recent Jussie Smollet case. The truth does not matter as long as the propaganda is out there. I’ve yet to hear msm take the blame. I actually heard them blame celebrity press, lol. 

I’m not here to defend Trump, and actually I haven’t really defended him, but I do defend those that voted for him because there is an entire sector of the country the Democratic Party walked away from to play identity politics. 

My opinion: The 2016 Democratic campaign was the worst run campaign in history. Donald Trump was literally tripping over every coffee table within his eyesight and Democrats could not get out in front of that? Democrats could not beat “Grab em by the pussy” and they still don’t do any introspection? It’s all Russia and racism?  Prepare to lose in 2020 with that mindset because you still don’t get it. Have you ever stepped out of your New York City bubble? You do realize theres an entire middle class shrinking and you guys are worried about toilets? You guys better be for open borders cuz you need votes and quick. 

 

Edited by Download

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1 minute ago, Silent Jay said:

It's Crazy Bernie or Bust for the Democrats.

I really feel he is the only potential candidate who can beat trump I like Andrew Yang but it ain't going to happen 

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3 hours ago, -W.A.R- said:

Trump amps his rhetoric on Venezuela in Miami

Meanwhile

DzuXdOUWkAEZE7L.png

And is it just me or is no one calling it Imperialism? I am sick of Canada playing good cop for the Imperialists, too. 

************************

NEOLIBERALISM OR DEATH: THE U.S. ECONOMIC WAR AGAINST VENEZUELA

Intercepted Podcast February 13 2019.

THE U.S. IS WEAPONIZING humanitarian aid in an effort to sell its regime change campaign against Venezuela. This week on Intercepted: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi officially endorses the attempted coup in Venezuela, joining forces with Donald Trump and his posse of neoconservatives. Venezuela’s Vice Foreign Minister Carlos Ron responds to the threats of military action and the reports about covert U.S. activity in the country. He also discusses the impact of the sanctions on Venezuela. Former United Nations rapporteur Alfred de Zayas is accusing the U.S. of attempting to “asphyxiate” Venezuela with economic warfare and says the U.S. should be investigated by the International Criminal Court. Zayas wrote a U.N. report on Venezuela in late 2018 that was scathing in its assessment of U.S. policy toward Venezuela under both Obama and Trump. He talks about what he found during his investigation. And we go inside the mind of journalist Sam Husseini, who tried to ask convicted criminal Elliott Abrams about his past and the present U.S. lies about Venezuela.

full podcast: https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neoliberalism-or-death-the-u-s-economic-war-against-venezuela/?campaign=homepage-podcast-intercepted

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23 hours ago, Download said:

Do you see the box you put yourself in?

 People are fickle and racism doesn’t have to be constant? So that comment dismisses the strides this country has made since the civil rights movement. The quiet racists voted in Obama twice? Quiet non constant racism? 

What? No. In no way did I imply Civil Rights accomplishments are moot or didn't do anything. Racism is more complicated than burning crosses and people in white hoods (should I make this my signature? I feel like I've had to say this a lot).

I already explained how people with potentially xenophobic views can be whipped into bigotry. Peoples' views are not a static thing. They can change on a whim or over time depending on a variety of circumstances, some people are more susceptible than others. Shakespeare's Caeser is partially about this, and he noticed it 400 years ago. It's not as if what I'm suggesting is a new idea. Human psychology hasn't changed much. Time and time again throughout history, a leader comes along with simple answers to complex questions, and a sizable portion of the populace eats it up because it's easy to digest and it makes sense with some of their inherent views.  

 

Quote

Neo-Nazi’s adore Trump? What, all 17 of them? How many Neo Nazi’s are there in the states?  I can’t believe I don’t see more of them. 

Hate crimes on the rise? Hate crimes towards whom? Blacks, LGBT, Muslims? What about anti-Semitic hate crimes not done by a neo-nazi? Who tops the list of hate crimes? I’m aware of the data points.

Far more than 17 neo-Nazis. Again, it is not always so blatant. How many people are walking around with SS helmets and swastikas? Not a lot. How many people subscribe to extreme right wing thought on immigrants, Jews, Muslims, etc.? A lot more. Richard Spender has been public lately, he is president of a registered lobby which advocates for alt-right and white supremacist thought. But the movement is far deeper. Here is a list of white supremacy organizations in the US - while some may be defunct currently, many are active. Here is a list of hate groups identified by SPLC, though I'm sure you consider this to be a socialist fake news liberal conspiracy organization anyway?

Just because you don't see these people, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Here is a DOJ chart showing the increase of hate crimes from 2016 to 2017.

For 2017, Blacks, Jews, and LGBT individuals were most exposed to hate crimes. Jews were exposed to hate crimes at a rate of 3x that of Muslims! It does not matter if a hate crime is committed by a neo Nazi or someone who's just misinformed (and I doubt there is reliable data on whether a hate crime offender is a neo Nazi or not), and I'm a bit taken aback that you even feel the distinction is important. A hate crime is wrong no matter who commits it. A rise in hate crimes is potentially indicative of the quality of race relations, based on sociopolitical circumstances.

Who tops the list of hate crimes offenders? Obviously, white people over 18 are the most common offender.

You say you are aware of the data points, but your questions don't make it seem so. Unless you were asking those questions rhetorically?

You stated a few posts ago, "one citizen being the victim of a crime from an illegal immigrant is too many." 

One citizen being the victim of a crime from a bigot is too many, too. Whether that's the Indian man at a Kansas bar, two people on a train in Oregon, or 11 Jews at a temple in Pittsburgh - they all have one thing in common: they were killed because of race/religion. The latter two offenders were self-admitted white supremacists. And if Trump hadn't won/hadn't approached politics with a xenophobic attitude, I wouldn't be surprised if all of those individuals would be alive today.

EDIT: How topical.  

Quote

How many crimes does Hillary Clinton have to commit? I don’t even want to type her name for fear of being Seth Rich’d

The problem is everything is handled just like the recent Jussie Smollet case. The truth does not matter as long as the propaganda is out there. I’ve yet to hear msm take the blame. I actually heard them blame celebrity press, lol. 

I’m not here to defend Trump, and actually I haven’t really defended him, but I do defend those that voted for him because there is an entire sector of the country the Democratic Party walked away from to play identity politics. 

My opinion: The 2016 Democratic campaign was the worst run campaign in history. Donald Trump was literally tripping over every coffee table within his eyesight and Democrats could not get out in front of that? Democrats could not beat “Grab em by the pussy” and they still don’t do any introspection? It’s all Russia and racism?  Prepare to lose in 2020 with that mindset because you still don’t get it. Have you ever stepped out of your New York City bubble? You do realize theres an entire middle class shrinking and you guys are worried about toilets? You guys better be for open borders cuz you need votes and quick. 

 

Which crimes are you referring to? The FBI scolded her, but did not charge her. I haven't read the conservative propaganda sites, so I'm not too familiar with the full crusade against her. I know why I don't like her very much, but I'm certain they are not the same reasons you have.

Regarding Smollett, the truth will matter and it is being investigated. If he lied, he deserves to be arrested for filing a false police report and he will lost his public credibility. He's already been dropped from one show and I imagine if the truth remains this was faked, his career will be over. As it should be. If there's one thing I dislike more than modern conservative thought, it's people in general. Red or blue, if one commits malice (and it has to be proven, not a conspiracy like the Hillary stuff), I will be adamant that adequate repercussions occur.

I would agree you generally don't defend Trump personally. And I agree a large portion of the country feels ignored. I think the reasons for that feeling may be due in part to misunderstanding, but there's no question Democrats have missed the mark on some things. Hopefully the DNC has learned, because I agree that not only was Hillary a bad candidate, she ran a mediocre campaign. 

But you should be asking if the Republican Party is introspective as of recently too. Both parties could do with some reshuffling and resetting. The Democrats seem to be doing that, but Republicans don't. Instead, you've (the party, not you personally) doubled-down on a fool of a demagogue. 

Edited by OmarBradley
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8 hours ago, lukepowell1988 said:

I really feel he is the only potential candidate who can beat trump I like Andrew Yang but it ain't going to happen 

He really is.

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8 hours ago, lukepowell1988 said:

Bernie Sanders is running for 2020!!! Yay

Saw that. I thought it was funny when he ran before that they all said he was too old. I mean Trump is in his 70's and could live to 100. So I don't understand why some people thought Bernie was too old.

I don't trust any of these guys running for President. They all want to change things for the better until they get into office and then it's the same old shit.

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44 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

 

So, defending someone from what was believed to be a genuine attack is somehow being spun as bad? A strong initial reaction to bigotry is what the Republican Party needs to express more of. In this case, it was a fluke. In most cases, it isn't.

Edited by OmarBradley
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I wish Sanders would not run in 2020.  He had his shot in 2016 and lost.  

Look, if Democrats and liberals are going to take shots at Trump and conservatives for their pie-in-the-sky policies, they should also be honest that most of Sanders' platform is based on a fantasy.  I don't begrudge for putting together big ideas like AOC, but at least her positions are little more grounded to reality.  Much of what Sanders proposes does not add up from a fiscal stand point.  

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6 hours ago, soon said:

And is it just me or is no one calling it Imperialism? I am sick of Canada playing good cop for the Imperialists, too. 

************************

NEOLIBERALISM OR DEATH: THE U.S. ECONOMIC WAR AGAINST VENEZUELA

Intercepted Podcast February 13 2019.

THE U.S. IS WEAPONIZING humanitarian aid in an effort to sell its regime change campaign against Venezuela. This week on Intercepted: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi officially endorses the attempted coup in Venezuela, joining forces with Donald Trump and his posse of neoconservatives. Venezuela’s Vice Foreign Minister Carlos Ron responds to the threats of military action and the reports about covert U.S. activity in the country. He also discusses the impact of the sanctions on Venezuela. Former United Nations rapporteur Alfred de Zayas is accusing the U.S. of attempting to “asphyxiate” Venezuela with economic warfare and says the U.S. should be investigated by the International Criminal Court. Zayas wrote a U.N. report on Venezuela in late 2018 that was scathing in its assessment of U.S. policy toward Venezuela under both Obama and Trump. He talks about what he found during his investigation. And we go inside the mind of journalist Sam Husseini, who tried to ask convicted criminal Elliott Abrams about his past and the present U.S. lies about Venezuela.

full podcast: https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neoliberalism-or-death-the-u-s-economic-war-against-venezuela/?campaign=homepage-podcast-intercepted

So if some of their oil (which they get paid for, btw...surprise, surprise) doesn't go to the U.S., where do you think it will go?

You would rather have a government backed by Russia, China & Cuba (Maduro's regime) than a government backed by the U.S. and its allies, eh?

 

Edited by Kasanova King

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Technically this belongs in the comedy thread as it’s not real but I think it’s just as relevant here. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Technically this belongs in the comedy thread as it’s not real but I think it’s just as relevant here. 

 

Is that your long lost brother?  He looks like a thinner version of you.  :P:lol:

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1 minute ago, Kasanova King said:

Is that your long lost brother?  He looks like a thinner version of you.  :P:lol:

I wasn’t THAT fat in Vegas was I? :lol: 

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1 minute ago, Dazey said:

I wasn’t THAT fat in Vegas was I? :lol: 

:lol:

I'm just messing around.  Although it's not like I remember it all that well either....:ph34r::lol:

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3 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

:lol:

yes you were you big fat cunt

Fixed :D

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