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2 hours ago, Padme said:

You're moderate/independent. I'm glad that's the case. But what makes you believe that someone like Trump supports Christian values? The whole world knew that Trump was far from being a role model. He has always been a public figure. It was clear he only cares about building casinos, parting with hot women and making a lot of money. Sorry but I really don't understand why Trump has become Pope Francis for a lot of people

I'm not claiming Trump is anything. But here's the thing, in the 2016 I was given two choices, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, that's it...that's only one more than Stalinist Russia! I liked that Trump was breaking with Republican orthodoxy on trade, foreign policy, immigration, unions even (didn't attack them like Republicans usually do), and was making statements on healthcare that were better than just lets have a private system. Now, the man has been largely a disappointment in office, but since I knew what I would get with Hillary, which is more neoliberalism, I felt it was worth a shot at something new. Since Trump has been a disappointment I will consider a vote for a dem like Bernie, Tulsi, or Yang, but probably not a corporate dem like Biden, Buttigieg or Harris.

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16 hours ago, soon said:

All for one and one for all. Unshakable class solidarity.

So, in that case, how does your social conservatism inform your vote then (I guess perhaps it doesnt)? If you are for spending, even in some cases spending 'extra' on people with lifestyles you would aspire to abstain from, then where does your social conservatism manifest itself in your voting? 

Well unfortunately I never get a real option to vote for it. The Republicans always signal that they are socially conservative, but once in office they only really fight for neoliberal economic policies and zionist/neoconservative foreign policy intervention, everything else is an afterthought or kubuki theater.

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Posted (edited)

I don't really follow the stance that a president should be a role model.

Since nobody is perfect, that would be a disproportionate requirement for a president.

As my mother always said "the king doesn't shit chocolate cream".

Being a role model does also not guarantee the most important aspect of being a president: ensure efficiënt legislation. Only through efficient legislation will the economy run, will criminals be jailed, and will the weak be protected. If all of that is accomplished, but the man / woman who made this legislation isn't a role model I guess that would be the least of my concern.

Edited by action

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1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

I'm not claiming Trump is anything. But here's the thing, in the 2016 I was given two choices, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, that's it...that's only one more than Stalinist Russia! I liked that Trump was breaking with Republican orthodoxy on trade, foreign policy, immigration, unions even (didn't attack them like Republicans usually do), and was making statements on healthcare that were better than just lets have a private system. Now, the man has been largely a disappointment in office, but since I knew what I would get with Hillary, which is more neoliberalism, I felt it was worth a shot at something new. Since Trump has been a disappointment I will consider a vote for a dem like Bernie, Tulsi, or Yang, but probably not a corporate dem like Biden, Buttigieg or Harris.

In the U.S. the two party system is not anything new. All his life Trump didn't give a shit about healthcare, Unions, immigration or trade. Republicans didn't give a fuck about any of those issues either. They just were against Obamacare without providing a better alternative. Republicans are more neoliberals than Democrats. You want an example? Reagan and the two Bush. I'm not saying Democrats are saints and perfect, far from it. And Hillary was not the right candidate. Unfortutatelly Democrats forgot about the working class. And they paid for that big mistake. What's so neoliberal about wanting regulations in Wall Street? It's the Democrats who want to do that. Trump wants to get rid of regulations. If Ford wants to open a factory in China. It is they right. It is how global economy works. Sure changes can be made in order to keep small town moving forward instead of turn them into ghost towns. But neither you nor Trump can go back to 1955.

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1 hour ago, action said:

I don't really follow the stance that a president should be a role model.

Since nobody is perfect, that would be a 

You don't have to be perfect to be a role model. At the very least we should expect a minimum of decency from a president because whether we consider them role models or not they do help to set the tone for conduct and discourse. 

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1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

You don't have to be perfect to be a role model.

 

semantics.

in this day of twitter and instagram insanity, the smallest imperfections get blown out of proportion.

what you then see, is fake people who say generic meaningless stuff to please the mass. Fake people make me restless.

even then, wether someone "acts" fake, or honest, is of small importance. legislation matters to us all, far more than the personal character and quirks of a leader. 

"charisma" was important, when the government was still in its infancy and laws were few. Back then, charisma really mattered. It was the time of the tribal leaders. that time has long gone away

Quote

At the very least we should expect a minimum of decency from a president because whether we consider them role models or not they do help to set the tone for conduct and discourse.

 I don't think a president sets the tone for conduct very much. I mean, what characteristics of the president of the USA would you find usefull in real life? Unless you're the CEO of a big company, I'd stronly advice to act a little bit "normal" in real life. People who work hard, who have a nice family and are generally standing with two feet in life, those are real role models. Acting normal is good enough.

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19 minutes ago, action said:

semantics.

in this day of twitter and instagram insanity, the smallest imperfections get blown out of proportion.

what you then see, is fake people who say generic meaningless stuff to please the mass. Fake people make me restless.

even then, wether someone "acts" fake, or honest, is of small importance. legislation matters to us all, far more than the personal character and quirks of a leader. 

"charisma" was important, when the government was still in its infancy and laws were few. Back then, charisma really mattered. It was the time of the tribal leaders. that time has long gone away

 I don't think a president sets the tone for conduct very much. I mean, what characteristics of the president of the USA would you find usefull in real life? Unless you're the CEO of a big company, I'd stronly advice to act a little bit "normal" in real life. People who work hard, who have a nice family and are generally standing with two feet in life, those are real role models. Acting normal is good enough.

Hate Crime rates have risen around 18% in the US since Trump took office. I would prefer that he didnt model racism, ableism, sexism and white nationalism.

I would prefer that he didnt model attacks on the press. And he does so, in part, because of his fragile ego.

Those are reasons that I want a person of some minimal decency and character in the office. But, that said, not a lot of truly quality people want a job that involves threatening other human beings with nukes or stealing peoples trade secrets or economically oppressing poorer nations or to preside over the largest incarcerated population in the world. What most voters want in a POTUS is a personality that makes them forget the true nature of the type of person leading the free world. Someone who's dead eyes wont reflect back the American voters true image. 

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47 minutes ago, action said:

semantics.

in this day of twitter and instagram insanity, the smallest imperfections get blown out of proportion.

what you then see, is fake people who say generic meaningless stuff to please the mass. Fake people make me restless.

even then, wether someone "acts" fake, or honest, is of small importance. legislation matters to us all, far more than the personal character and quirks of a leader. 

"charisma" was important, when the government was still in its infancy and laws were few. Back then, charisma really mattered. It was the time of the tribal leaders. that time has long gone away

 I don't think a president sets the tone for conduct very much. I mean, what characteristics of the president of the USA would you find usefull in real life? Unless you're the CEO of a big company, I'd stronly advice to act a little bit "normal" in real life. People who work hard, who have a nice family and are generally standing with two feet in life, those are real role models. Acting normal is good enough.

The U.S. President certainly sets the tone for other world leaders as to what is acceptable.  One only has to take a look at the language and actions of leaders like Duterte and others.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/04/world/americas/foreign-leaders-echo-trump.html

Trump's terrible character, language and opinions have given other world leaders cover to justify their own terrible behaviour.  America loses its high ground with person like Trump.  

Having someone like Trump undermines parents rationale for why their children should behave, speak kindly of others, and to be honest.  If Trump can be the world's biggest lying asshole and still be President, why should America's children behave?  

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Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2019 at 3:48 PM, Gordon Comstock said:

I'm kind of surprised that she isn't as popular as them, or even more popular.

Okay here goes my attempt at explaining what i think.

It helps to understand the Democratic party - you have 2 wings: the establishment and the progressive/anti-establishment. With progressives shes actually pretty popular. However Sanders will always reign supreme with this group as he has been fighting for the cause for decades. Until hes out of the picture no one will surpass him. Now with the establishment wing she is HATED and i mean she brings out a level of venom that's usually reserved for Trump. There are 2 big reasons for this: The first is that in 2016 she broke rank and stood behind Sanders instead of Clinton and the second is that she isn't anti-Russia enough - I mean how dare she be skeptical and not spew conspiratorial nonsense in theatrical fashion?

Now there are also a few funky things about her - During the Obama presidency she sided with Republicans on Obama not saying "Radical Islamic Terrorism" i don't think her position was coming from a place of hate, but that was a misstep for her to validate that stupid point. Her and her husband follow some sort of "Spiritual Guru" which is pretty weird to me. If you subscribe to "American exceptionalism" her meeting with Assad probably isn't viewed well. She also unfortunately gets some cred from the far-right because of her foreign policy. I think all of that and lack of name recognition scares off people.

I think her platform is pretty awesome, shes like Sanders domestically and Ron Paul on foreign policy. Shes also not afraid to go against the grain. A recent example is that she said she'd drop the charges against Assange and pardon Snowden  - who else is saying that?

Edited by -W.A.R-
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Furthermore, you want a president to be a decent guy because that is how you want your country to behave. If a president is a morally reprehensible individual then it is likely to assume he will make morally reprehensible decisions as a president, too. And you shouldn't want that.

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3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Furthermore, you want a president to be a decent guy because that is how you want your country to behave. If a president is a morally reprehensible individual then it is likely to assume he will make morally reprehensible decisions as a president, too. And you shouldn't want that.

You would think that would go without saying.  Apparently Nixon is too far in the rearview of history for most people to remember.  

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59 minutes ago, action said:

semantics.

The President is not above the law. If a given President breaks the law there are consequences. Would you vote for a candidate who has spent time in prision for robbery, murder, rape or tax avoidance?

I'm not asking the President to go to church every Sunday. But as leader of a country I do expect decent beahvior. It is a big responsibility to lead a country

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how a politician acts in his private life, couldn't be further removed from my personal interest.

what matters to me, and society as a whole, is how a country is run. what laws are made, to make sure that society keeps "running" smootly.

A president, a parliament, a government are mere tools to achieve this goal. 

A car doesn't need to look good, it needs to take you from point A to point B.

It's not a matter of personal taste. A country isn't helped with a president who screws up, but does it in the nicest possible ways.

When a president screws up and drives his country to disaster, people will not remember how nice he was and what a role model he was. They will remember the disaster he / she brings, and the consequences will be felt for generations to come.

But a president who is a dickhead, but who manages to generate economical wealth / safety / tolerance will be remembered long after his presidency has ended, and the fruits of his presidency will be appreciated for generations to come, even when it's not really apparent anymore who was responsible for their wealth in the first place.

a captain of a ship, doesn't need to be a niceguy. His prime responsability is to get the ship safe to the next harbour. When the ship sinks, it won't matter one bit if he was a nice guy or not

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to further put in perspective, this so called duty of being a "role model": people overestimate the role of a president of acting like a "role model" to citizens.

I find it hard to place this supposed task in all the responabilities of the US president.

The US president is the highest political leader of the country, and head of the army. Those are his two fundamental tasks, but they are lightyears removed from everyday life.

Doing politics on the highest level of a country... how is it a role model for you and me?

The president is interacting with politicians on a daily basis. These politicians are opportunists and snakes of the highest levels. It takes a whole arsenal of advanced skills to be one step ahead of these sharks. Without being an even bigger shark than all of them, you wont last long. Being a bigger shark is what makes you survive on the top.... what gets you on the top in the first place. The world of politicians is a world of sharks, and nice guys finish squarely last.

Naturally, those kind of people, politicians, are NOT a good role model for any of us. To think, high level politicians are a good role mode for any of us is highly delusional.

You want role models? start with your parents. They are your best role models. Without good parents, than I hate to break it to you, but life will be hard. Don't expect anyone else to be a better role model to you, than your parents ever could. So your dad is an asshole? I'm sorry to hear that. Who could possibly do you dad's task better? No one buddy: I guess you're on your own. The president doesn't care, and Axl Rose is way past his prime. All you're left with is your own character now. 

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4 minutes ago, action said:

what matters to me, and society as a whole, is how a country is run. what laws are made, to make sure that society keeps "running" smootly.

Well Trump isn't achieving that either.

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1 minute ago, -W.A.R- said:

Well Trump isn't achieving that either.

well, that sucks then.

luckily, elections are 'round the corner.

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4 hours ago, Padme said:

In the U.S. the two party system is not anything new. All his life Trump didn't give a shit about healthcare, Unions, immigration or trade. Republicans didn't give a fuck about any of those issues either. They just were against Obamacare without providing a better alternative. Republicans are more neoliberals than Democrats. You want an example? Reagan and the two Bush. I'm not saying Democrats are saints and perfect, far from it. And Hillary was not the right candidate. Unfortutatelly Democrats forgot about the working class. And they paid for that big mistake. What's so neoliberal about wanting regulations in Wall Street? It's the Democrats who want to do that. Trump wants to get rid of regulations. If Ford wants to open a factory in China. It is they right. It is how global economy works. Sure changes can be made in order to keep small town moving forward instead of turn them into ghost towns. But neither you nor Trump can go back to 1955.

I don't know who you are arguing with here because I never claimed to love Republicans or Wall Street. 

Yes if Ford wants to open a factory in China it is their right. It is NOT their right to ship those products into America tariff free after such a move. That is the neoliberal position that the big money boys funding both sides want. That and huge amounts of immigration further driving down wages and creating new consumers of said goods from China.

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45 minutes ago, action said:

to further put in perspective, this so called duty of being a "role model": people overestimate the role of a president of acting like a "role model" to citizens.

I find it hard to place this supposed task in all the responabilities of the US president.

The US president is the highest political leader of the country, and head of the army. Those are his two fundamental tasks, but they are lightyears removed from everyday life.

Doing politics on the highest level of a country... how is it a role model for you and me?

 

It's not just about being a role model for a nation's citizens. 

How a President carries himself has dramatic ramifications and consequences with respect to America's relationships with other countries.  

Trump is crass, ignorant, and rude to many other world powers.  He's doing a marvellous job through rhetoric and attitude alone of isolating America from its allies.  If he gets re-elected in 2020 we'll see a dramatic wholesale reconsideration by many countries with respect to its relationship with America.  This would not be in America's best interest.  

48 minutes ago, action said:

You want role models? start with your parents. They are your best role models. Without good parents, than I hate to break it to you, but life will be hard. Don't expect anyone else to be a better role model to you, than your parents ever could. So your dad is an asshole? I'm sorry to hear that. Who could possibly do you dad's task better? No one buddy: I guess you're on your own. The president doesn't care, and Axl Rose is way past his prime. All you're left with is your own character now. 

It's not an either or situation.  I know lots of shitty kids with good parents and a lot of good kids with shitty parents.  

What you have a is a President with a behaviour problem that would have been called out if he were a 5 year old.  We wouldn't let our kids act that way, why should we accept it from the President?  

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1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

I don't know who you are arguing with here because I never claimed to love Republicans or Wall Street. 

Yes if Ford wants to open a factory in China it is their right. It is NOT their right to ship those products into America tariff free after such a move. That is the neoliberal position that the big money boys funding both sides want. That and huge amounts of immigration further driving down wages and creating new consumers of said goods from China.

You claim Democrats are neoliberals. How so? They want regulations in Wall Street. They want to create Government run programs to help poor people. They DO want higher wages for workers. They are against Right To Work laws because that hurt Unions. And you call them neoliberals?

If you believe that Ford has the right to open a factory elsewhere. They also have the right to whatever they want with the product they make. Of course there should be some rules regulating, but not tariffs. There are also expensive Chinese goods, just check the price of a Levi's jean. Or go to GAP and check the prices of their items. Check Nike shirts, far from being cheap. Only in places like Wall Mart you find cheap clothes.

Immigrants are cheap labor. That's true and it's unfair for everyone involved. But also there are States that need population. And in many cases immigrants do the jobs that citizens don't want to do.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, downzy said:

It's not just about being a role model for a nation's citizens. 

How a President carries himself has dramatic ramifications and consequences with respect to America's relationships with other countries.  

Trump is crass, ignorant, and rude to many other world powers.  He's doing a marvellous job through rhetoric and attitude alone of isolating America from its allies.  If he gets re-elected in 2020 we'll see a dramatic wholesale reconsideration by many countries with respect to its relationship with America.  This would not be in America's best interest.  

It's not an either or situation.  I know lots of shitty kids with good parents and a lot of good kids with shitty parents.  

What you have a is a President with a behaviour problem that would have been called out if he were a 5 year old.  We wouldn't let our kids act that way, why should we accept it from the President?  

the most "dangerous" leaders on earth today, off the top of my head:

putin

kim yong un

erdogan

It is my observation, that relationships with these leaders is "pretty well" since trump was elected. I hear far less talk about war with any of those countries, than prior to trump's election.

So again, I have to say: the duty of a captain is getting his ship from one harbour to the next. It doesn't matter if he does so while being a dickhead.

It's not all good and well of course. People like Merkel and May don't have a lot of good things to say about trump. Relations are pretty bad with those countries I give you that. But May is an utter joke of a leader, and Merkel isn't doing much better either. Two very weak characters if you ask me. I hope they quit their job soon.

Edited by action

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Padme said:

You claim Democrats are neoliberals. How so? They want regulations in Wall Street. They want to create Government run programs to help poor people. They DO want higher wages for workers. They are against Right To Work laws because that hurt Unions. And you call them neoliberals?

If you believe that Ford has the right to open a factory elsewhere. They also have the right to whatever they want with the product they make. Of course there should be some rules regulating, but not tariffs. There are also expensive Chinese goods, just check the price of a Levi's jean. Or go to GAP and check the prices of their items. Check Nike shirts, far from being cheap. Only in places like Wall Mart you find cheap clothes.

Immigrants are cheap labor. That's true and it's unfair for everyone involved. But also there are States that need population. And in many cases immigrants do the jobs that citizens don't want to do.

 

 

Corporate democrats are neoliberals, just like their corporate Republican counterparts. I'm not saying ALL democrats are neoliberals, there are honest leftists in the party, but there is a clear corporate and neoliberal faction that has dominated policy for awhile now. You realize you are spouting neoliberal talking points on free trade and immigration? Illegal immigration creates downward pressure on wages at the bottom of society (while the H1b type of immigration creates downward pressure on those types of jobs). Yeah those are jobs Americans won't do, at those shit wages! That's the same logic the slavocracy in the old south used to use. Oh, we need these slaves, we can't get a citizen to do this work!

And being for unions is a good thing, I like unions. But you undermine the power of a union when you support free trade. A union does you no good if your business can just pick up and move to another country and then ship those products back to the USA tariff free!

Edited by Basic_GnR_Fan

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1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Corporate democrats are neoliberals, just like their corporate Republican counterparts. I'm not saying ALL democrats are neoliberals, there are honest leftists in the party, but there is a clear corporate and neoliberal faction that has dominated policy for awhile now. You realize you are spouting neoliberal talking points on free trade and immigration? Illegal immigration creates downward pressure on wages at the bottom of society (while the H1b type of immigration creates downward pressure on those types of jobs). Yeah those are jobs Americans won't do, at those shit wages! That's the same logic the slavocracy in the old south used to use. Oh, we need these slaves, we can't get a citizen to do this work!

And being for unions is a good thing, I like unions. But you undermine the power of a union when you support free trade. A union does you no good if your business can just pick up and move to another country and then ship those products back to the USA tariff free!

Tariff get you retaliation and a trade war. There is nothing good about a trade war. Struggling small towns are still struggling

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1 hour ago, Padme said:

Tariff get you retaliation and a trade war. There is nothing good about a trade war. Struggling small towns are still struggling

I didn't know I was debating an Austrian Economist. We have been in a trade war for a long time, the solution our government has taken is absolute surrender.

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