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US Politics/Elections Thread

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23 minutes ago, action said:

We already agreed that fascist and racist opinions should not be tolerated. I don't know what else I can say about that.

You can say why you, with just as much "factual evidence", accept that white race parades aren't wholesome joyous celebrations of the Caucasian race but protest marches against other races, but fail to accept that straight pride parades aren't about celebrating heterosexuality but about signalling opposition to gay rights and gay acceptance. 

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30 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Do you have "factual evidence" to indicate people attending white supremacist marches are racists? Or are you just going to assume they aren't based on a lack of published evidence? :lol:

The guy on the left is one of the organisers of this nonsense. His buddy on the right is throwing a white power sign. 

screen-shot-2019-06-04-at-4.55.13-pm.png  OkayLarge267x296.jpg?itok=BAkTglHS

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36 minutes ago, action said:

We already agreed that fascist and racist opinions should not be tolerated. I don't know what else I can say about that.

What does not tolerated mean though? Should it be banned? If there is no direct threat to violence, we shouldn't be banning things per the first amendment (in the US).

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, action said:

A gay parade promotes homosexuality in some way, but it's not anti-heterosexual. It's a positive message.

From what I can tell, and until other indications should tell a different story, I see this straight parade as a positive message too. Not to ridicule gay people, but rather to celebrate heterosexuality.

I don't think gay parades promote homosexuality. They are not trying to convert anyone who is not homosexual into a homosexual. It is a march to bring visibility to a sexual minority that has been severely oppressed in the past and is still oppressed in many parts of the world.

May the fact that it is colorful and has a 'happy' vibe confuse some people into thinking that they are celebrating their sexuality, promoting it or boasting about it. I guess that's part of the criticism made by other groups within the LGTB organizations, who are against the banalization of their fight.

6 hours ago, action said:

Personally, I see no need to celebrate any sexuality however. Why should any sexuality be celebrated anyway? I admit that I find it hard to find reasons for parades like these at all, be they gay or heterosexual. But if we accept that gay people want to celebrate their sexuality, then we should also accept that heterosexual people want to celebrate theirs. We are after all, humans and we are all made of flesh and bone and have the same emotions.

Well, I agree with you in the first line. I wish we'd reach a point where we don't have to give society any account of our sexualities, who we go to bed with or who do we love (as long as those people are consenting adults).

But at the moment this is not possible for some people, so I give my support to the parade, though I'd rather see it focus more on the fight of those who are still oppressed and not turn it into a carnival.

That being said, I don't see the need for a heterosexual parade. It is ridiculous, useless, it makes no sense and it would be a waste of money for the governments.

Heterosexuals have nothing to fight for. They have their rights intact. Heterosexuals can love anyone they want without being ashamed of it. They can have as many partners as they want, they can get married, divorced, marry twice, thrice, have children, adopt them and in many countries, they get benefits for having a partner, so what would be the motivation behind a heterosexual parade other than showing a step back in mental development? :lol:

Next up people will want to celebrate their ability to move their intestines and start a shit fest in the middle of the street? 💩💩💩

OMG please! :facepalm:

Edited by killuridols
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2 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

2 things, violent crime in general in the UK is going up. Also, there is a rise in the Islamic population, which would be more likely to physically attack a gay people. 

My point still stands that nobody who attends a gay pride parade will be economically hurt by doing so. The same cannot be said for a straight pride marcher.

To your first point, I would assume then you believe that there is a similar threat to a gay couple walking down the street hand in hand as there is for a straight couple?

Nor should there be any financial or career penalty for supporting equal rights for a marginalized group.  The same shouldn't be said for someone attending a rally that is nothing more than a reaction to efforts to normalize the LGBTQ community.  

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4 minutes ago, downzy said:

To your first point, I would assume then you believe that there is a similar threat to a gay couple walking down the street hand in hand as there is for a straight couple?

Nor should there be any financial or career penalty for supporting equal rights for a marginalized group.  The same shouldn't be said for someone attending a rally that is nothing more than a reaction to efforts to normalize the LGBTQ community.  

To the first, there probably isn't, but let's be honest, a big part of that is the type of immigration into the West and the UK in this instance.

I totally disagree with the logic behind the second point. That means you just want to ban speech you don't like. You don't outright ban it, you just use economic means to stifle what you don't like. Maybe there should be job protections for political opinions? I would support it.

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12 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

To the first, there probably isn't, but let's be honest, a big part of that is the type of immigration into the West and the UK in this instance.

Really?  You think attacks on the LGBTQ community is largely a product of immigration?  Nothing to do with anti-gay sentiment as evidence by some of the posters in this thread?

12 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

I totally disagree with the logic behind the second point. That means you just want to ban speech you don't like. You don't outright ban it, you just use economic means to stifle what you don't like. Maybe there should be job protections for political opinions? I would support it.

Funny, you think I want to ban free speech but it would appear you want to ban consequences from said speech.  

There's also freedom of association.  Private employers, and to a certain extent public employers, are free to employ (associate) with whomever they wish.  By your logic an employee could walk into an office and call every black employee by the n word and there's nothing his employer could do about it.  

You're free to say whatever you want.  But with such freedom comes consequences.  If you really feel that strongly about a straight-pride march, then fine.  But understand there could be consequences.  

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30 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I don't think gay parades promote homosexuality. They are not trying to convert anyone who is not homosexual into a homosexual. It is a march to bring visibility to a sexual minority that has been severely oppressed in the past and is still oppressed in many parts of the world.

Well it's a movement to normalize those lifestyles. And the LGBTQ list keeps growing. Maybe the slippery slope is real? If it isn't real, explain how Desmond is Amazing's parents aren't in prison right now. What kind of society looks the other way at a 10 year old stripping in drag, while homosexual men throw money at the kid in a club. 

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1 minute ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Well it's a movement to normalize those lifestyles. And the LGBTQ list keeps growing. Maybe the slippery slope is real? If it isn't real, explain how Desmond is Amazing's parents aren't in prison right now. What kind of society looks the other way at a 10 year old stripping in drag, while homosexual men throw money at the kid in a club. 

I don't know anything about that case so I can't speak to it.  But pointing to one instance of parental abuse or troubled behaviour doesn't render the attempt to normalize people who were born gay is absurd.  I could point to countless instances of parental abuse by straight couples.  Your logic is fucked here.

 

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2 minutes ago, downzy said:

Really?  You think attacks on the LGBTQ community is largely a product of immigration?  Nothing to do with anti-gay sentiment as evidence by some of the posters in this thread?

Funny, you think I want to ban free speech but it would appear you want to ban consequences from said speech.  

There's also freedom of association.  Private and public employers are free to employ (associate) with whomever they wish.  By your logic an employee could walk into an office and call every black employee by the n word and there's nothing his employer could do about it.  

You're free to say whatever you want.  But with such freedom comes consequences.  If you really feel that strongly about a straight-pride march, then fine.  But understand there could be consequences.  

Regarding the first point, yes I think there is a strong correlation with immigration and these attacks you are citing. I would be interested in see statistics on the background of attackers so we could make some fact based judgement on this regard. 

Well first off, I'm not a libertarian so I don't buy into the whole private corporations can do whatever the hell they want when it comes to political speech. In the example you gave, said employee is verbally abusing his fellow coworkers at work and on work time. They could be penalized for actual work performance issues in that example. What I'm referring to is what you do off work time and related to political speech. So let's say, an employee goes to a political rally or march that is for reducing immigration. I think that should be protected political speech, where said employee could sue his employer for any retaliation.

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2 minutes ago, downzy said:

I don't know anything about that case so I can't speak to it.  But pointing to one instance of parental abuse or troubled behaviour doesn't render the attempt to normalize people who were born gay is absurd.  I could point to countless instances of parental abuse by straight couples.  Your logic is fucked here.

 

A previous, more socially conservative society would not have accepted even the concept of drag kids, much less a drag kid stripping at a club. Now that whole concept is fucked.

Who said I was defending parental abuse by a straight couple? If a straight man abuses his child, are you saying he's somehow immune from legal consequences? He isn't, and I'm not arguing he should be.

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Just now, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Regarding the first point, yes I think there is a strong correlation with immigration and these attacks you are citing. I would be interested in see statistics on the background of attackers so we could make some fact based judgement on this regard. 

That's a pretty bold accusation.  Do you have any documentation or any evidence to suggest that attacks on the gay community are a result of recent immigration?  You do realize that attacks on gay people have been around forever.  

3 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Well first off, I'm not a libertarian so I don't buy into the whole private corporations can do whatever the hell they want when it comes to political speech. In the example you gave, said employee is verbally abusing his fellow coworkers at work and on work time. They could be penalized for actual work performance issues in that example. What I'm referring to is what you do off work time and related to political speech. So let's say, an employee goes to a political rally or march that is for reducing immigration. I think that should be protected political speech, where said employee could sue his employer for any retaliation.

So who decides what is political speech then?  What if a cop showed up at a white power rally?  Isn't that political speech conducted outside his employment?  Could that cop then be trusted to execute the laws fairly and faithfully?  

The Supreme Court has been near universal on this.  People are free to say what they want, but outside of certain public employees no employee is free of consequence for said speech.  

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3 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

A previous, more socially conservative society would not have accepted even the concept of drag kids, much less a drag kid stripping at a club. Now that whole concept is fucked.

Who said I was defending parental abuse by a straight couple? If a straight man abuses his child, are you saying he's somehow immune from legal consequences? He isn't, and I'm not arguing he should be.

You brought up an example of a kid stripping in drag at a strip club.  You and I would both be in agreement that is not appropriate and would be a form of child abuse.  

But why bring this up at all within the context of talking about gay people and their efforts to be treated as equal?  The LGBTQ community is a normative expression for a certain segment of the population.  Many view it as deviant despite that it's not something they decide or can change without great pain.  

Hence you bringing up this one example is an effort to undermine the precept that gay people are in any way normal.  How could they be normal, you seem to be arguing, if they put a kid in drag at a strip club?  

And as I point out, that's an issue with those individuals, not with the community.  There are countless examples of straight couples doing way worse to their children but few would association their poor behaviour towards their child as indicative of being straight.  

Let's just call a spade a spade: you don't view being gay as residing within the boundaries of what society should consider normal and you resent any normative efforts as a result.  

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2 minutes ago, downzy said:

That's a pretty bold accusation.  Do you have any documentation or any evidence to suggest that attacks on the gay community are a result of recent immigration?  You do realize that attacks on gay people have been around forever.  

So who decides what is political speech then?  What if a cop showed up at a white power rally?  Isn't that political speech conducted outside his employment?  Could that cop then be trusted to execute the laws fairly and faithfully?  

The Supreme Court has been near universal on this.  People are free to say what they want, but outside of certain public employees no employee is free of consequence for said speech.  

I clearly said I would like to see evidence on the attackers to see how much of this is affected by immigration and if that has caused increases. At the end of the day, assaulting someone is a crime no matter the status or class of the victim.

I would go by the first amendment. Is there any direct threats of violence at the rally that the hypothetical employee goes to?

Yes I know, I said I support an additional carve out in the labor laws to employment protections that includes political speech that falls under definition of legally protected speech.

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Just now, downzy said:

You brought up an example of a kid stripping in drag at a strip club.  You and I would both be in agreement that is not appropriate and would be a form of child abuse.  

But why bring this up at all within the context of talking about gay people and their efforts to be treated as equal?  The LGBTQ community is a normative expression for a certain segment of the population.  Many view it as deviant despite that it's not something they decide or can change without great pain.  

Hence you bringing up this one example is an effort to undermine the precept that gay people are in any way normal.  How could they be normal, you seem to be arguing, if they put a kid in drag at a strip club?  

And as I point out, that's an issue with those individuals, not with the community.  There are countless examples of straight couples doing way worse to their children but few would association their poor behaviour towards their child as indicative of being straight.  

Let's just call a spade a spade: you don't view being gay as residing within the boundaries of what society should consider normal and you resent any normative efforts as a result.  

The whole concept of drag kids is a slippery slope consequence of LGBTQ normalization. At some point you have to draw the line and say no, this won't fly. Currently no one even has the guts to legally go after this kids parents because no one wants to be that person and get ridiculed for it.

I have a nuanced position on homosexuality. No I'm not for active promotion of the lifestyle as something that is necessarily a net positive for society. But I'm not for active efforts to actively discriminate against them. I want a counterculture to simply push back against. How about just telling the truth about some of this stuff. There is a good percentage of gay men that have an extremely high amount of sexual partners, it's a dangerous lifestyle, let's call that spade a spade. I've seen surveys showing gay men to have way more sexual partners than straight men, on average. How is that good for society? Look at the rates of STD's among homosexuals. How is that good for society? And also, what even causes homosexuality. Are we allowed to do a comprehensive scientific study, or is that too unPC?

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They're blatantly on a wind up the straight pride lot but see, the thing about those types is (and we all know who I mean, white pridey types) they are not known for their sense of humour so call their bluff, this is the benders here, just go up to em, give em a hug, join in with them, blend your parade with theirs, watch em squirm :lol:

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1 minute ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The whole concept of drag kids is a slippery slope consequence of LGBTQ normalization.

Says who?  Why do you consider it part and parcel of normalization whereas abuse at the hands of straight people has no bearing on the parents sexuality?  Your logic doesn't make sense.  Do parents who put their six year old daughters in child parents where young girls walk around in bikinis call into question the straight lifestyle?  Of course not.  They're just fucked up people who are doing fucked up things to their kids that has nothing to do with their sexuality.

3 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

At some point you have to draw the line and say no, this won't fly.

I agree, but so long as we're talking about the individuals.  I know a lot of gay people who would find this behaviour indefensible.  But somehow you feel it represents gay attitudes towards child rearing.

8 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

There is a good percentage of gay men that have an extremely high amount of sexual partners, it's a dangerous lifestyle, let's call that spade a spade.

Dangerous lifestyle?  How is it dangerous?  What difference does it make to society if gay men are fucking each other more than straight men?  Do straight men who fuck a lot of women pose a threat to society?   

10 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

what even causes homosexuality. Are we allowed to do a comprehensive scientific study, or is that too unPC?

What causes people to be straight?  Do we have comprehensive scientific study on this?  

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30 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Well it's a movement to normalize those lifestyles.

So what? Why do you care? Live your own life the way you want it. A let others doing in a different way if they wish to.  Dying my hair green is not my cup of tea. But there are other people who love to wear green hair. I don't have the right to tell them that their hair should be blonde or brunette and nothing else is allowed.

 

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33 minutes ago, downzy said:

That's a pretty bold accusation.  Do you have any documentation or any evidence to suggest that attacks on the gay community are a result of recent immigration?  You do realize that attacks on gay people have been around forever. 

Islam doesn't take too kindly to homosexuality. Not saying christianity does, but it is a fact, at least here, that gay people have to endure the most abuse from muslim people. There's no need to sweep that under the carpet. It's a fact. There are lots of story of gay people (including gay muslims, because of course they exist too) who get abused verbally and physically in neighbourhoods where mostly immigrants live.

Of course gay people have been attacked since forever, but things have improved in 'the West' more so than in other parts of the world, namely the muslim world and Africa. We have refugees here escaping possible death penalties because they're gay. If homosexuality is treated as a crime in your country, it's only logical you're more inclined to be homophobic.

So attacks on the gay community aren't as much a result of recent immigration, but the proportion of immigrants (even 2nd or 3rd generation) in homophobic attacks is high.

https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

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3 minutes ago, Lio said:

Islam doesn't take too kindly to homosexuality. Not saying christianity does, but it is a fact, at least here, that gay people have to endure the most abuse from muslim people. There's no need to sweep that under the carpet. It's a fact. There are lots of story of gay people (including gay muslims, because of course they exist too) who get abused verbally and physically in neighbourhoods where mostly immigrants live.

Of course gay people have been attacked since forever, but things have improved in 'the West' more so than in other parts of the world, namely the muslim world and Africa. We have refugees here escaping possible death penalties because they're gay. If homosexuality is treated as a crime in your country, it's only logical you're more inclined to be homophobic.

So attacks on the gay community aren't as much a result of recent immigration, but the proportion of immigrants (even 2nd or 3rd generation) in homophobic attacks is high.

https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

I don't discount the fact that homophobia is far more prominent in muslim-based countries, where gay people have been tortured and killed as a result.  

My issue is the assertion by Basic that anti-gay attacks in North America are solely the product of recent immigration.  That if we ended immigration from more homophobic regions that attacks on gay people would be equivalent to attacks on straight people for their sexuality.  

The latest statistics I've seen show that there was a 17 percent increase in anti-LGBTQ hate crimes in 2017 from the previous year.  The number of attacks has been on the rise since 2014.  Are you saying that increase is solely the result of increase immigration from Muslim based countries? 

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13 minutes ago, Lio said:

Islam doesn't take too kindly to homosexuality. Not saying christianity does, but it is a fact, at least here, that gay people have to endure the most abuse from muslim people. There's no need to sweep that under the carpet. It's a fact. There are lots of story of gay people (including gay muslims, because of course they exist too) who get abused verbally and physically in neighbourhoods where mostly immigrants live.

Of course gay people have been attacked since forever, but things have improved in 'the West' more so than in other parts of the world, namely the muslim world and Africa. We have refugees here escaping possible death penalties because they're gay. If homosexuality is treated as a crime in your country, it's only logical you're more inclined to be homophobic.

So attacks on the gay community aren't as much a result of recent immigration, but the proportion of immigrants (even 2nd or 3rd generation) in homophobic attacks is high.

https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

seeing gay people being thrown off buildings, was one of the most disgusting, inhumane things I have ever seen reported on the news. I wondered, if the nazis had returned or something

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Just now, downzy said:

The latest statistics I've seen show that there was a 17 percent increase in anti-LGBTQ hate crimes in 2017 from the previous year.  The number of attacks has been on the rise since 2014.  Are you saying that increase is solely the result of increase immigration from Muslim based countries? 

No, not at all. I was speaking from my side of things, which I maybe shouldn't have done, looking at the thread title :lol: But I thought the hate crimes in Britain were discussed earlier, so that's why I lost sight of this being the America thread.

I would assume it's a bit different in the US, as they have fundamentalist christians who still believe homosexuality is a disease. We don't have that here. I saw memes from Americans talking about being a transgender because being gay doesn't get you enough attention. Thankfully, we don't have those here. Or maybe we do, but they will be a marginalized group with no leverage or media attention.

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1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Well it's a movement to normalize those lifestyles. And the LGBTQ list keeps growing. Maybe the slippery slope is real? If it isn't real, explain how Desmond is Amazing's parents aren't in prison right now.

Maybe it keeps growing because many fellas who had to hide their sexuality before are feeling more confidence to come out of the closet now? :question:

Maybe it keeps growing because new people are born every day? :o

1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

If it isn't real, explain how Desmond is Amazing's parents aren't in prison right now. What kind of society looks the other way at a 10 year old stripping in drag, while homosexual men throw money at the kid in a club. 

The same kind of society (MOSTLY CONSERVATIVES) who have looked the other way for CENTURIES the sexual abuse of children, women and people in general at the hands of priests, teachers, and MOSTLY HETEROSEXUAL PARENTS.

Check statistics and realize how many little girls are sexually abused by their FATHERS, not to mention how many of them get pregnant and are forced to have the baby as a result of their incestous relationships.

Please, stop insulting our intelligence with these bollocks! Denegerates are degenerates of all sexes, genders, ages and sexual orientation.

Desmond parents should be in jail, as much as the parents of millions of children who are and have been sexually abused ever since the world is world.

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4 minutes ago, Lio said:

I would assume it's a bit different in the US, as they have fundamentalist christians who still believe homosexuality is a disease. We don't have that here. I saw memes from Americans talking about being a transgender because being gay doesn't get you enough attention. Thankfully, we don't have those here. Or maybe we do, but they will be a marginalized group with no leverage or media attention.

It's all part of the same problem, though to various degrees.  The danger to gay individuals and communities is far greater in middle eastern countries than in the U.S. or western developed nations.  I don't doubt that recent immigration is a  factor.  My only issue is the assertion that any and all discrepancies between attacks on gay couples or individuals is explained by recent immigration; that there are no native threat imbalances.  

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4 minutes ago, downzy said:

My only issue is the assertion that any and all discrepancies between attacks on gay couples or individuals is explained by recent immigration; that there are no native threat imbalances.

Saying inmigration is at fault for gay attacks is utter ignorant.

The homophobia resides mainly on the patriarchal system. The hate comes from having individuals who do not want to conform to heteronormativity, therefore to patriarchy.

There are homophobes in all religions, all countries, even in the most advanced societies there will always be someone who dislikes or do not accept homosexuality.

I think it will take a great amount of decades, maybe a century, to have a more tolerant society in global terms.... maybe it never happens, it is in our nature to destroy ourselves for whatever reasons.

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