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US Politics/Elections Thread

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6 hours ago, action said:

the alternative, and the only way to keep humanity alive in the foreseeable future, is to create one world government, one world economy, one world jurisdiction, one tax system, one world legislation and one world population.

a redistribution model where land, resources and finances are reassigned.

there would be no third world anymore, since there is only one world. There would be no discrimination, because everyone belongs to the same population.

♫ You may say im a dreamer ♫

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On 8/12/2019 at 9:14 AM, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Yeah, that German Navy that couldn't even cross the English channel and invade Britain was going to cross the Atlantic and invade the US :facepalm:

 

 

I wasn’t speaking specifically about Germany. But if they had won the war in Europe, who knows what would have happened with the rest of the world.  But if you seriously think they would have had a difficult time reaching the US, go do some research.  There are reports of German U-Boats (Submarines) being within striking distance of the US mainland during the war.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/head-here/2014/04/25/aa5c8202-c3d5-11e3-b195-dd0c1174052c_story.html?noredirect=on

Edited by Kasanova King

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15 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

I wasn’t speaking specifically about Germany. But if they had won the war in Europe, who knows what would have happened with the rest of the world.  But if you seriously think they would have had a difficult time reaching the US, go do some research.  There are reports of German U-Boats (Submarines) being within striking distance of the US mainland during the war.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/head-here/2014/04/25/aa5c8202-c3d5-11e3-b195-dd0c1174052c_story.html?noredirect=on

Yeah but the point is the a few U-Boats aren't going to be able to stage an invasion.

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10 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Yeah but the point is the a few U-Boats aren't going to be able to stage an invasion.

Probably not.  But had they won the war in Europe, it would have given them some time to rebuild their forces, etc.  Would have only been a matter of time before they did...and had they developed nuclear technology, then what?

During WWII, the Germans had control of where my family’s house was in Italy.   The allies would bomb and destroy railroad tracks/supply lines.  The Germans would rebuild them hours after the allies bombed them.  They had crews literally waiting for them to be bombed so they could start repairing them immediately.   Within a few days, they would get bombed again, and the Germans would repair them, and so forth.  The German army worked like a well-oiled machine.  I have little doubt they would have been able to eventually reach the US mainland, given enough time.  But who knows....

@DieselDaisy would be better suited to answer.

 

Edited by Kasanova King
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But only one military has ever had the proximity to invade USA and burn down the White House :slash:

And that was after they invaded us, we pushed them back and then chased them to the capital B-)

:lol:

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Be wary of the sincere reformer that knows what’s best for you and is going to make you do it rather you like it or not

Power corrupts

absolute power corrupts absolutely 

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1 hour ago, Kasanova King said:

Probably not.  But had they won the war in Europe, it would have given them some time to rebuild their forces, etc.  Would have only been a matter of time before they did...and had they developed nuclear technology, then what?

During WWII, the Germans had control of where my family’s house was in Italy.   The allies would bomb and destroy railroad tracks/supply lines.  The Germans would rebuild them hours after the allies bombed them.  They had crews literally waiting for them to be bombed so they could start repairing them immediately.   Within a few days, they would get bombed again, and the Germans would repair them, and so forth.  The German army worked like a well-oiled machine.  I have little doubt they would have been able to eventually reach the US mainland, given enough time.  But who knows....

@DieselDaisy would be better suited to answer.

 

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. The Germans were already stretched thin before the invasion of the Soviet Union, after that they had serious supply line issues. They were outgunned and outmanned in some battles on the eastern front at like 10-1 (not counting the extreme worker and resource shortfall they had compared to the allies). So to think they would be able to man an empire encompassing all of Europe and the Soviet Union and then man an invasion of the US is the stuff of Hollywood fantasy. The US mainland was never under any serious threat.

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1 hour ago, Kasanova King said:

Probably not.  But had they won the war in Europe, it would have given them some time to rebuild their forces, etc.  Would have only been a matter of time before they did...and had they developed nuclear technology, then what?

During WWII, the Germans had control of where my family’s house was in Italy.   The allies would bomb and destroy railroad tracks/supply lines.  The Germans would rebuild them hours after the allies bombed them.  They had crews literally waiting for them to be bombed so they could start repairing them immediately.   Within a few days, they would get bombed again, and the Germans would repair them, and so forth.  The German army worked like a well-oiled machine.  I have little doubt they would have been able to eventually reach the US mainland, given enough time.  But who knows....

@DieselDaisy would be better suited to answer.

 

The Nazis did look into the possibilities of invading the United States but promptly gave up due to the logistical challenges and Hitler's lack of interest. Hitler had all of these superweapons, one of which was the Amerikabomberhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerikabomber. Like most of Hitler's superweapons, it was ''pie in the sky'' stuff.

The Kaiser however had plans to invade the United States, formulated 1897-1903: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_German_plans_for_the_invasion_of_the_United_States

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7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Nazis did look into the possibilities of invading the United States but promptly gave up due to the logistical challenges and Hitler's lack of interest. Hitler had all of these superweapons, one of which was the Amerikabomberhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerikabomber. Like most of Hitler's superweapons, it was ''pie in the sky'' stuff.

The Kaiser however had plans to invade the United States, formulated 1897-1903: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_German_plans_for_the_invasion_of_the_United_States

Speaking of the Wonder Weapons, even the V-2 rockets, which were a technical marvel for the time, only managed to kill about 5,000 people. One allied raid of a German city would kill more than that. 

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2 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

I wasn’t speaking specifically about Germany. But if they had won the war in Europe, who knows what would have happened with the rest of the world.  But if you seriously think they would have had a difficult time reaching the US, go do some research.  There are reports of German U-Boats (Submarines) being within striking distance of the US mainland during the war.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/head-here/2014/04/25/aa5c8202-c3d5-11e3-b195-dd0c1174052c_story.html?noredirect=on

Type IX U-Boats vectored right up to the north eastern coastline attacking ships silhouetted against city lights during Operation Drumbeat (Paukenschlag), January - July 1942. Upon entering the war, America's merchant trade was vulnerable as Admiral King hadn't installed a black out or convoy system as the Royal Navy had done, so the American Navy suffered the same crippling losses the Royal Navy had suffered, 1940-41. U-Boats indulged in what was described as a second ''Happy Time'', sinking 609 allied ships, 3.1 million tons against a loss of 22 U-boats. 

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5 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Speaking of the Wonder Weapons, even the V-2 rockets, which were a technical marvel for the time, only managed to kill about 5,000 people. One allied raid of a German city would kill more than that. 

They also cost more than the Manhattan project and consumed a huge chunk of the Reich's fuel. The ME 262 was probably the best of Hitler's super weapons, but even then Hitler made a dog's dinner of it by insisting on its conversion into a fighter-bomber!

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26 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. The Germans were already stretched thin before the invasion of the Soviet Union, after that they had serious supply line issues. They were outgunned and outmanned in some battles on the eastern front at like 10-1 (not counting the extreme worker and resource shortfall they had compared to the allies). So to think they would be able to man an empire encompassing all of Europe and the Soviet Union and then man an invasion of the US is the stuff of Hollywood fantasy. The US mainland was never under any serious threat.

Hypothetically,  they wouldn’t have attempted an invasion of the US until years after winning the war in Europe, after sufficient time to rebuild. 

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1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

They also cost more than the Manhattan project and consumed a huge chunk of the Reich's fuel. The ME 262 was probably the best of Hitler's super weapons, but even then Hitler made a dog's dinner of it by insisting on its conversion into a fighter-bomber!

At the end of the day, the Wonder Weapons program basically became in-kind R&D expenditures for the US and Soviet Union military industrial complexes post-war.

1 minute ago, Kasanova King said:

Hypothetically,  they wouldn’t have attempted an invasion of the US until years after winning the war in Europe, after sufficient time to rebuild. 

We're getting into extreme hypothetical land here. They would have also needed several decades to repopulate their armed forces, which had been bled white by the war with the Soviets.

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3 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

At the end of the day, the Wonder Weapons program basically became in-kind R&D expenditures for the US and Soviet Union military industrial complexes post-war.

We're getting into extreme hypothetical land here. They would have also needed several decades to repopulate their armed forces, which had been bled white by the war with the Soviets.

Possibly.  But in any case, had Germany won the war in Europe, the world would be a much different place....which was part of my original point to begin with. 

Edited by Kasanova King

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Just now, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

At the end of the day, the Wonder Weapons program basically became in-kind R&D expenditures for the US and Soviet Union military industrial complexes post-war.

Yes. US intel had a special operation for going around the Reich in the dying days of the way and immediate aftermath and grabbing all of the special aeronautical stuff, 262s and so forth: Operation Lusty. Similarly the British had the Fedden Mission. A lot of the surviving planes in museums are a testament to their work, but of course that wasn't the original aim. Apparently the US even recruited Luftwaffe test pilots, who were the only people capable of flying a 262. 

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Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Yes. US intel had a special operation for going around the Reich in the dying days of the way and immediate aftermath and grabbing all of the special aeronautical stuff, 262s and so forth: Operation Lusty. Similarly the British had the Fedden Mission. A lot of the surviving planes in museums are a testament to their work, but of course that wasn't the original aim. Apparently the US even recruited Luftwaffe test pilots, who were the only people capable of flying a 262. 

Ah I knew of Paperclip but hadn't heard of Lusty, love the names given to these things. I know that the US got about 120 of Von Braun's V-2 team and he spent the years 1945-51 just bringing everyone up to speed on what he was doing and firing off old V-2 rockets. If they had just let the man work we could have reached the Moon by the early 60's!

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U boats got into the st Lawrence sea way! For context the sea way leads to the canadas capital. I could walk to to the locks that would get me to the sea way in 15 minutes. and sail to the gulf In Approximately 6 days!!

The u boats were mostly held at the gulf of the st Lawrence - which is plenty close!! But some were fought in the seaway according to the canadian encyclopedia at least

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/battle-of-the-st-lawrence

There’s lots of folklore about just how far they got and people form societies to search for them.

 

Edited by soon

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2 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

 The German army worked like a well-oiled machine.  I have little doubt they would have been able to eventually reach the US mainland, given enough time.

The only imaginable path for German (or any nation) to have taken over the U.S. at the time would be to have nuclear hegemony.  The U.S. was too big, too powerful, too isolated, and too populated for a nation the size of Germany to be of any real threat.  If they couldn't even take over Britain because of the English channel, how are they going to mobilize enough forces to invade a nation as large and powerful as the U.S. an ocean away?  Keep in mind they would have still required a lot of man power and resources to keep a hold on the lands/countries they took over.

The only possibility of Germany taking over America and the rest of the world is if they had developed a nuclear bomb before America and its allies.  Had they dropped a bomb on New York, Washington, and say Boston with America not being able to respond in kind, I would imagine the Americans would have laid down just as the Japanese did.  

But in terms of conventional warfare, not a chance.  Germany was too small and did not have the manpower nor resources for actual global domination, even if its alliance with Japan held up (which, likely would not have all things considered). 

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3 minutes ago, downzy said:

The only imaginable path for German (or any nation) to have taken over the U.S. at the time would be to have nuclear hegemony.  The U.S. was too big, too powerful, too isolated, and too populated for a nation the size of Germany to be of any real threat.  If they couldn't even take over Britain because of the English channel, how are they going to mobilize enough forces to invade a nation as large and powerful as the U.S. an ocean away?  Keep in mind they would have still required a lot of man power and resources to keep a hold on the lands/countries they took over.

The only possibility of Germany taking over America and the rest of the world is if they had developed a nuclear bomb before America and its allies.  Had they dropped a bomb on New York, Washington, and say Boston with America not being able to respond in kind, I would imagine the Americans would have laid down just as the Japanese did.  

But in terms of conventional warfare, not a chance.  Germany was too small and did not have the manpower nor resources for actual global domination, even if its alliance with Japan held up (which, likely would not have all things considered). 

Like I’ve said already a few times, no one would have expected them to attempt a US invasion until years after the war in Europe would have been won.  It would have given them time to recover and they would have had all of Europe’s resources available to them.  And yes, the possibility of them developing the atom bomb makes it plausible, imo.

 

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4 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Like I’ve said already a few times, no one would have expected them to attempt a US invasion until years after the war in Europe would have been won.  It would have given them time to recover and they would have had all of Europe’s resources available to them.  And yes, the possibility of them developing the atom bomb makes it plausible, imo.

 

You just ignored what Downzy posted and stated your same argument again!

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13 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

You just ignored what Downzy posted and stated your same argument again!

No, I didn’t.  lol  

For starters, you’re the one that assumed I was talking about Germany.  So I went along with a ‘theoretical scenario’ of Germany winning the war in Europe, then later attempting an invasion of the US, with the possibility of also having developed the atomic bomb.

Not sure there is even an argument here.  This is all hypothetical/conjecture, tbh:

 

 

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Who knows if you assume the Germans won the war in the east in 1941 or 1942 and you add an extra five-ten years, but then you have to factor in Britain which was being built up as an arsenal with Commonwealth/US involvement? It is counterfactual history! Even if the eastern war was won, there was actual fighting in the Mediterranean, against Americans (following the Torch Landings in North Africa). The Nazis would have certainly wanted to finish the European-Mediterranean war off, probably by driving through the Caucasus and across Suez. Yes, you'd predict a Nazi victory given the tremendous resources being turned upon the allies.

But then who knows if you lump on five years following the conclusion of a hypothetical Nazi Euro-African victory? My own belief is ''nope'', because the Nazis were not very advanced in achieving the nuclear bomb, and their super weapons which could project them across the Atlantic were derailed by the usual Reich departmental infighting. Also, the United States was mobilizing/mobilized (it is a little known fact that the US Army was minuscule before World War Two). Possibly some sort of Cold War between the United States and Nazi Germany would've occurred. Maybe Nazi influence would have infiltrated (quasi-fascist) South America such as Argentina, establishing a sort of South American Axis to oppose the United States - you'd have to assume they would reach out for American allies.  

But this is just speculation. It is always interesting to speculate on these counterfactual histories. It for instance completely eradicates the progress of the Pacific War.

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59 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Who knows if you assume the Germans won the war in the east in 1941 or 1942 and you add an extra five-ten years, but then you have to factor in Britain which was being built up as an arsenal with Commonwealth/US involvement? It is counterfactual history! Even if the eastern war was won, there was actual fighting in the Mediterranean, against Americans (following the Torch Landings in North Africa). The Nazis would have certainly wanted to finish the European-Mediterranean war off, probably by driving through the Caucasus and across Suez. Yes, you'd predict a Nazi victory given the tremendous resources being turned upon the allies.

But then who knows if you lump on five years following the conclusion of a hypothetical Nazi Euro-African victory? My own belief is ''nope'', because the Nazis were not very advanced in achieving the nuclear bomb, and their super weapons which could project them across the Atlantic were derailed by the usual Reich departmental infighting. Also, the United States was mobilizing/mobilized (it is a little known fact that the US Army was minuscule before World War Two). Possibly some sort of Cold War between the United States and Nazi Germany would've occurred. Maybe Nazi influence would have infiltrated (quasi-fascist) South America such as Argentina, establishing a sort of South American Axis to oppose the United States - you'd have to assume they would reach out for American allies.  

But this is just speculation. It is always interesting to speculate on these counterfactual histories. It for instance completely eradicates the progress of the Pacific War.

Have you heard of the show ‘Man in the High Castle”?

It might spike your interest.   It’s about a hypothetical scenario of Germany winning the war in Europe and Japan winning the war in the Pacific.

I watched the 1st season years ago, haven’t had a chance to watch other seasons yet.

 

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5 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Have you heard of the show ‘Man in the High Castle”?

It might spike your interest.   It’s about a hypothetical scenario of Germany winning the war in Europe and Japan winning the war in the Pacific.

I watched the 1st season years ago, haven’t had a chance to watch other seasons yet.

 

I watched the first two seasons - yes. Excellent show. It is based on the Philip K Dick novel; he is the chap who wrote Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? which became Blade Runner.

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