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Two articles of impeachment being announced tomorrow:

  • Abuse of Power
  • Obstruction of Congress

Even if you want to argue about the abuse of power charge, there's no doubt about obstruction of congress.  The White House has not turned over one document requested or permitted any senior official to testify, regardless of subpoena.  

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Thought the whole thing was about Bribery. hmmm. 

The Democrats won't go through with it. Pull it out of the rug the last minute or the middle state Dems will ditch the train. The Dems DO NOT want to give the GOP subpoena power in the senate because they are gonna call, Schiff, The Whistleblower,  Joe, and Hunter to testify. Do the Dems really want that to happen? No, they should have gone for Censure.

it would look a lot worse on the GOP if they refused to Censure Trump. 

But the insanity continues and Pelosi will dig her own grave, they are doing this as fast as possible because a trial will disrupt the 2020 race for the Dems because of Warren, Sanders, Klobachuer,  Booker, etc will have to suspend their campaigns temporarily.  Pelosi said this in March.

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/im-not-for-impeachment-pelosi-says-potentially-roiling-fellow-democrats/2019/03/11/894b3f80-442d-11e9-90f0-0ccfeec87a61_story.html

Polls in the   critical swing states, Wisconsin, Arizona, Flordia, Nevada, etc all show opposing impeachment is  gaining ground

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2019/12/06/axios-n2557617

Also, Trump is very competitive in those states rn

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/04/trump-rivals-biden-warren-and-sanders-in-2020-election-swing-states.html

Pelosi's hand was forced by those wanting Trump out since day 1, she does not want to do this at all.  she basically said "Fuck It  and doesn't care if she loses the house. Democrats are in debt and the RNC is raising money like no tommorow '

 https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/25/democrats-impeachment-blowback-2020-1509852

Edited by Gibsonfender2323

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I'm pretty certain that impeachment doesn't help Democrats in any way, but don't really buy that it hurts them in any significant way. The argument that it mobilizes Trump voters doesn't convince me, aren't Trump voters already mobilized? They love the guy. And the notion that it would suppress any Democratic votes seems silly, it's not something anyone would stay home over.

 

I guess it could affect some independents, although that's a voter bloc that I think is overstated when people are theorizing. To the politically disengaged who are just seeing headlines for the most part, what the Democrats are doing might look like sore losers trying to overturn their loss. 

Edited by Jakey Styley

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5 hours ago, Jakey Styley said:

I'm pretty certain that impeachment doesn't help Democrats in any way, but don't really buy that it hurts them in any significant way. The argument that it mobilizes Trump voters doesn't convince me, aren't Trump voters already mobilized? They love the guy. And the notion that it would suppress any Democratic votes seems silly, it's not something anyone would stay home over.

 

I guess it could affect some independents, although that's a voter bloc that I think is overstated when people are theorizing. To the politically disengaged who are just seeing headlines for the most part, what the Democrats are doing might look like sore losers trying to overturn their loss. 

Independents and others should look at the big picture. The President of the U.S. wanted Ukraine to get involed in a U.S. election. Trump and his henchmen set in motion a plan to accomplish that. So Congress and the Justice Department should turn a blind eye?

On top of that I don't see what's to love about Trump. Did Ford open new factories all over the U.S.? No How many new steel factories are out there? How many brand new T.V., Computers and phones factories do we have around the U.S. since Trump is in office? The trade war with China is hurting farmers. Where are the clothing and shoes stores selling made in U.S. products?

Is the President doing anything to stop the opium crisis? Is he doing anything about affordable healthcare? Is he doing anything about education or new infrastructure?

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2 hours ago, Padme said:

Independents and others should look at the big picture. The President of the U.S. wanted Ukraine to get involed in a U.S. election. Trump and his henchmen set in motion a plan to accomplish that. So Congress and the Justice Department should turn a blind eye?

On top of that I don't see what's to love about Trump. Did Ford open new factories all over the U.S.? No How many new steel factories are out there? How many brand new T.V., Computers and phones factories do we have around the U.S. since Trump is in office? The trade war with China is hurting farmers. Where are the clothing and shoes stores selling made in U.S. products?

Is the President doing anything to stop the opium crisis? Is he doing anything about affordable healthcare? Is he doing anything about education or new infrastructure?

Apple opened a new manufacturing  plant,

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/apple/apple-breaks-ground-1-billion-texas-campus-trump-tours-manufacturing-n1087606

Unemployment is the lowest in 50 years, For African Americans its the lowest ever

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/04/black-and-hispanic-unemployment-is-at-a-record-low.html

 

Stockmarket Continues to break records.

USMCA will add 170,000 jobs.   

Trump Admin is trying to stop the drug companies

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-healthcare-drugpricing/trump-firms-up-plan-to-import-medicines-pharma-companies-resist-idUSKCN1UQ1NP

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/09/04/trump-offering-2-million-grants-fight-opioid-epidemic-states/2209579001/

This is the best economy in 50 years and ever for some people. GDP growth hit 3 percent which hasn't happened since before 2008.

Pe 

Edited by Gibsonfender2323

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Apple opened  ONE plant. WOW!!! :rolleyes: And in Texas? How about they open several plants in places like Idaho, Alabama, Nebraska, Ohio, etc. See that's the problem

The stock market? Really? Today they break a record high. Tomorrow they go to hell. We've seen it many times before

Besides money, policy is needed for rehablilitation of those with an adiction.

Trying to stop drug comanies? Those same companies that make big donations to political parties? I believe it when I see it.

I would like to know the quality of the job and the income African Americans are enjoying thanks to those jobs.

Sure it the best economy in 50 years for "some" people. Budget deficit and the national debt are also part of that "healthy economy"

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Sorry, my computer spazzed.

 

Fun fact. Obstruction Of Congress is not a High Crime Or Misdemeanor. (Just cite him for contempt)  

But Perjury and Obstruction of Justice are and they did not go for it.   This will be dismissed in the senate. If the Dems went for Obstruction of Justice, Perjury or both then maybe there would be a trial. 

Everything that has failed.

Bribery

Quid Pro Quo

Obstruction Of Congress(Not a high crime)

Let's see they are going to impeach him for having 2 scoops of ice cream. The fact is the base of their party has been calling for this since day 1 (looking at you Washington post)  Pelosi lost controll 

 

Edited by Gibsonfender2323

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14 minutes ago, Padme said:

Apple opened  ONE plant. WOW!!! :rolleyes: And in Texas? How about they open several plants in places like Idaho, Alabama, Nebraska, Ohio, etc. See that's the problem

The stock market? Really? Today they break a record high. Tomorrow they go to hell. We've seen it many times before

Besides money, policy is needed for rehablilitation of those with an adiction.

Trying to stop drug comanies? Those same companies that make big donations to political parties? I believe it when I see it.

I would like to know the quality of the job and the income African Americans are enjoying thanks to those jobs.

Sure it the best economy in 50 years for "some" people. Budget deficit and the national debt are also part of that "healthy economy"

All good points. Speaking to highlighted section, you called it bang on. The blind celebration of the growing precariat is mind boggling to me. If it werent so sad it would be funny, they're like "They dont just have one job now - they have three!!! :headbang::facepalm:

Furthermore some of these employment trends are incentive based and those incentives can take time to really take shape... maybe the Black POTUS helped fuel this shift?? Maybe progressive social movements that MAGAs oppose have opened up paths to employment? We know for sure that Trump isnt fighting for workers rights and is for removing environmental regulations. 

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48 minutes ago, Padme said:

Apple opened  ONE plant. WOW!!! :rolleyes: And in Texas? How about they open several plants in places like Idaho, Alabama, Nebraska, Ohio, etc. See that's the problem

The stock market? Really? Today they break a record high. Tomorrow they go to hell. We've seen it many times before

Besides money, policy is needed for rehablilitation of those with an adiction.

Trying to stop drug comanies? Those same companies that make big donations to political parties? I believe it when I see it.

I would like to know the quality of the job and the income African Americans are enjoying thanks to those jobs.

Sure it the best economy in 50 years for "some" people. Budget deficit and the national debt are also part of that "healthy economy"

So you're saying Trump is essentially running the same neoliberal economic scheme that all his predecessors for the past 40 years did, Democrat and Republican alike? If so, than I agree!

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5 hours ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Wheres the evidence for that?

"One trend could be especially ominous: a spike in the number of Americans taking multiple jobs that has effectively reversed a decade-long* decline.

"The plight of low-income workers is underlined by yet another statistic," Sri-Kumar writes.

The Labor Department reports that 7.6 million workers held multiple jobs last month, up 2% from 7.4 million in July 2016. That's back to highs not seen in 20 years. And it should not be mistaken as a sign of healthy entrepreneurship.

"The principal reason workers hold more than one position is that no single job provides a sufficient income," Sri-Kumar adds. "In a robust economic recovery, the number of full-time workers should be rising, and the number of workers employed part-time or holding multiple jobs, should decline."

"The rise in the number of multiple job holders is troubling, and is yet another signal that there is still slack in the labor market," Sri-Kumar concludes. "Are we there yet? No, we are still far from full employment.""

https://www.businessinsider.com/more-americans-working-more-than-one-job-to-make-ends-meet-2017-8

 

^^ Thats 2017. And then here's 2019 numbers. Again, directly from the US Federal Gov: https://census.gov/library/stories/2019/06/about-thirteen-million-united-states-workers-have-more-than-one-job.html

 

""More Americans are working second jobs or “side hustles” as the cool kids call them.

Bankrate.com says 37 percent of Americans now have work on the side. Home repair/landscaping is No. 1. Online sales and child care are also on the list.

The average amount made on these second jobs is $686 a month.""

https://nypost.com/2018/07/23/more-americans-are-working-second-jobs/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/01/opinion/working-two-jobs.html

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/09/06/magazine/teachers-america-second-jobs.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-04/why-so-many-americans-still-work-multiple-jobs-in-strong-market

 

Also, to the broader point, this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2018/05/05/sure-unemployment-went-down-because-the-number-of-people-working-did/#42f6b641408b

Edited by soon

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24 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

So you're saying Trump is essentially running the same neoliberal economic scheme that all his predecessors for the past 40 years did, Democrat and Republican alike? If so, than I agree!

There are some differences between them(taxes,market regulations, abortion or guns) Democrats are too broad. Elizabeth Warren and Joe Machin have different point of view on many issues. Yet they are both Democrats. I see Republicand more united on the issues.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Padme said:

There are some differences between them(taxes,market regulations, abortion or guns) Democrats are too broad. Elizabeth Warren and Joe Machin have different point of view on many issues. Yet they are both Democrats. I see Republicand more united on the issues.

 

 

 

Yes, the Republicans are the right side of liberalism and the Democrats are the left side of liberalism. As Chomsky said, you are allowed very vigorous debate within a very narrow spectrum of acceptable opinion. With Republicans in power you get the economic liberalism, but not the social traditionalism or the immigrant restrictionism that the ring wing base wants. With Democrats in power, you get the social liberalism, but not the economic populism that left wing base wants. Also, both sides more or less have the same foreign policy views.

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14 hours ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Thought the whole thing was about Bribery. hmmm

It's the same crime by whatever or however you want to call it.

14 hours ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

The Democrats won't go through with it. Pull it out of the rug the last minute or the middle state Dems will ditch the train. The Dems DO NOT want to give the GOP subpoena power in the senate because they are gonna call, Schiff, The Whistleblower,  Joe, and Hunter to testify. Do the Dems really want that to happen? No, they should have gone for Censure.

Sure they will.  It's almost a guarantee that Trump will be impeached in the House.  

Senator Lindsay Graham, who chairs the Senate Judiciary Committee, has already said he wouldn't turn the hearings into a circus by calling on Schiff.  He's not legally or logistically able to subpoena the whistleblower since the whistleblower's identity is unknown (at least, it's suppose to be).  

14 hours ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

You might want to read articles you're referencing:

"“This is news,” added Pelosi (D-Calif.). “I haven’t said this to any press person before. But since you asked, and I’ve been thinking about this, impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don’t think we should go down that path because it divides the country. And he’s just not worth it.""

The Ukrainian scandal hits two of the three criteria: compelling and overwhelming.  The only reason it's not bi-partisan is because enough Republicans drink from orange-tainted Kool Aid fountain.  This shouldn't be a bi-partisan issue.  The President committed a crime by asking a foreign power to investigate his potential political rival.  That's a crime.  The quid-pro-quo, extortion, bribery - or however you want to call it - makes the matter even worse.  But if you're willing to give Trump a pass to pressure foreign governments to investigate his political rivals (or, at the very least, give the appearance of one), then be prepared for future Democratic Presidents to do the same.  The net result will be the wholesale export of American democracy to the highest foreign bidder.  

Also, I don't think any sitting Senator who is currently a candidate for the Democratic primaries would mind suspending their campaign itineraries to cast a vote to remove an unlawful man from office.  

14 hours ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Pelosi's hand was forced by those wanting Trump out since day 1, she does not want to do this at all.

Completely disagree.  She's acknowledged that the effort to remove Trump from office might not be politically expedient, but that it's the right thing to do.  This concept might be foreign to Republicans, but sometimes doing the right thing means sacrificing political gains.

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17 minutes ago, downzy said:

but that it's the right thing to do.

You also forgot to mention unless there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan. No Republican will vote to remove trump  Also Lindsey Grham will not be running the trial,

 

The Democrats have hated Trump since day 1 THAT IS A FACT. if you can't see that then I give up. Washington post literally said this the day after Trump's election.  There is no crime that's why the removed Bribery from the articles. They have said it was a quid quo pro. 

Democrats are scared of 2020 because the field is weak

As for Obstruction. They should have   Impeached Obama for not giving documents over during fast in furious then. The executive branch is not subordinate to the Legislative and the legistlative is not subordinate to the executive. It is equal. The subpoenas issued were not legally binding. the supreme court ruled that. 

Edited by Gibsonfender2323

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14 hours ago, Jakey Styley said:

I'm pretty certain that impeachment doesn't help Democrats in any way, but don't really buy that it hurts them in any significant way. The argument that it mobilizes Trump voters doesn't convince me, aren't Trump voters already mobilized? They love the guy. And the notion that it would suppress any Democratic votes seems silly, it's not something anyone would stay home over.

 

I guess it could affect some independents, although that's a voter bloc that I think is overstated when people are theorizing. To the politically disengaged who are just seeing headlines for the most part, what the Democrats are doing might look like sore losers trying to overturn their loss. 

I would disagree that impeachment doesn't help Democrats.  Failure to mount an investigation and hold a vote at this point on what are fairly obvious impeachable offences would suppress Democratic enthusiasm among the base and those who want to see Democrats act with a little more guts.  I do agree that the impeachment proceedings isn't going to do much for Trump leaning and ardent supporters.  I believe I saw or heard a recent poll that suggested that 55 percent of Republicans would support Trump regardless of what he did.  They honestly don't give a fuck if Trump punched a baby in the face (especially if it wasn't a white baby).  These are not rational people.  It's a cult of personality that defies common sense, decency and humanity.  

There are very few truly independent voters.  Save for 10 to 15 percent, most lean one way or another (the generic independent voter has historically and generally leaned Republican).  

As for your last point, I don't think a country is going to last very long if legislators tailor their actions to the whims of the uninitiated or uninformed.  The founding fathers were quite clear that elected representatives were to act in accordance with their obligations and responsibilities as made clear in the Constitution.  Legislators are meant to base their decisions on what they believe to be right.  The founders were very weary of the mindless majority and designed a system that was intended to have representatives that would elevate their standards above the fray.  Their nightmare is what we're seeing in real-time now: elected officials who know better (or should know better) cow-towing to a King-like executive branch because of the ignorance of the constituents.  

 

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6 minutes ago, downzy said:

These are not rational people.  It's a cult of personality that defies common sense, decency and humanity.

 ad  hominem attack  

 

Edited by Gibsonfender2323

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25 minutes ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

The Democrats have hated Trump since day 1 THAT IS A FACT.

First, for good fucking reason.  I'd list all the reasons why a sane individual would hate Trump but I don't have all day and night.

Second, how is this any different from how Republicans treated Obama?  The one exception is Obama never sold out American foreign policy for his own political gain.  But if he had, you would bet your ass Republicans would have (and deservedly so) rung him up on impeachment charges.

25 minutes ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

There is no crime that's why the removed Bribery from the articles. They have said it was a quid quo pro. 

You obviously aren't paying attention.  First, impeachment isn't a criminal matter.  It's a political matter.  Richard Nixon was about to be impeached not because he broke the law, but because he abused his powers and attempted to cover it up.  There is no law that states that it's illegal for the President of the United States to ask a foreign government to investigate his or her political rival.  Why?  Because no one thought it was necessary.  And if something like that comes about, the course of action is impeachment.  

But even if you need a crime to justify impeachment (again, you don't), he's guilty of FEC laws relating to soliciting a foreign government for a campaign contribution.  

25 minutes ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

As for Obstruction. They should have   Impeached Obama for not giving documents over during fast in furious. The executive branch is not subordinate to the Legislative. It is equal. The subpoenas issued were not legally binding. the supreme court ruled that. 

The supreme court never rendered a decision on the subpoena relation to the Fast and the Furious investigation by Congress.  You wouldn't make such a claim if you actually knew what you were talking about here rather than making a bunch of nonsense to defend a nonsense position.  The issue was scuttled as both sides withdrew their arguments.  

Moreover, the White House was never subpoenaed over the FBI gun-running operation.  The subpoena was directed to AG Eric Holder who then ignored it as White House at the time claimed the files were covered by executive privilege.  The investigation was into FBI misconduct and not into Presidential misconduct.  Because both sides pulled their arguments in front of the courts, the case was never fully litigated, let alone reach the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court case that's relevant here is United States v. Nixon.  In that case, decided unanimously, the Court sided with DOJ that executive privilege does not apply to matters in which the conduct of the President or executive branch is being investigated for criminal behaviour or impeachment.  Essentially the court decided that a sitting President can't hide behind executive privilege to avoid Congressional investigations into matters that might result in his or her removal from office since the impeachment process is the only means by which a sitting President can be removed from said office.  

 

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16 minutes ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

 

 ad  hominem attack  

 

It's not ad hominem if it can't be supported by facts.  

The President clearly abused his powers and is clearly obstructing Congress.  The President's action resulted in one of the worst humanitarian crises at the border with thousands of children being forcibly separated by their parents.  If you still support something or someone like that, there's no other conclusion to make other than to question your common sense, decency and humanity.  

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7 hours ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

This is the best economy in 50 years and ever for some people. GDP growth hit 3 percent which hasn't happened since before 2008.

First, GDP growth, if viewed quarterly, hit 4 percent in 2015.  

Second, the economy has never hit 3 percent per annum since Trump took office.  It was 2.9 percent for 2018, but this is the same annual growth as 2015 under Obama

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/26/gdp-growth-fails-to-hit-trumps-3percent-target-in-2018.html

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5 hours ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Fun fact. Obstruction Of Congress is not a High Crime Or Misdemeanor

That is neither fun nor a fact.  There is no clear cut definition of what a high crime or misdemeanour is.  It's never made clear in the Constitution.  It's left open to interpretation.

Nixon was facing three articles of impeachment: 1) Obstruction of Justice, 2) Abuse of Power; 3) Obstruction of Congress.

Why would they not have a trial in the Senate when two of the three articles for Trump are the same as they were for Nixon?

5 hours ago, Gibsonfender2323 said:

The fact is the base of their party has been calling for this since day 1

Why not pull the trigger earlier then?  Why wait until so close to the election season?  This is another ridiculous argument for explaining why the House is going through with impeachment now.  If Democrats are only doing this because they've always wanted to do, why wouldn't have done it earlier? 

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3 minutes ago, downzy said:

That is neither fun nor a fact.  There is no clear cut definition of what a high crime or misdemeanour is.  It's never made clear in the Constitution.  It's left open to interpretation.

Nixon was facing three articles of impeachment: 1) Obstruction of Justice, 2) Abuse of Power; 3) Obstruction of Congress.

Why would they not have a trial in the Senate when two of the three articles for Trump are the same as they were for Nixon?

Why not pull the trigger earlier then?  Why wait until so close to the election season?  This is another ridiculous argument for explaining why the House is going through with impeachment now.  If Democrats are only doing this because they've always wanted to do, why wouldn't have done it earlier? 

Your point answered itself. The Democrats are scared because they have no viable option to beat trump. They decided to beat him in 2020 but since there field is weak they sre panicking forget national polls and look at state polls. He is competitive in ever single swing state the the dems need to win. 

 

5 minutes ago, downzy said:

 It's left open to interpretation.

And thats what I am trying to say. Everything here is how

 

22 minutes ago, downzy said:

The one exception is Obama never sold out American foreign policy for his own political gain.  

Except he actually did in 2011 on a hot mic.to Dimitri . Ob wait I am supposed to forget its different . because everything obama did was gold 

 

8 minutes ago, downzy said:

That is neither fun nor a fact.

Yes it is. If he obstructed congress then thats what they have contempt citation for.

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