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US Politics/Elections Thread

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On 1/25/2020 at 6:17 PM, Silent Jay said:

Because any endorsement like this is a real problem for the democrats and the mainstream media, they don't want Bernie.

They don't want Bernie because Trump wins in 2020 if Bernie is the nominee.

Look, no one has taken a shot at Sanders.  All the candidates have treated him like kid gloves until now because they don't want to offend or put off his supporters, who they'll likely need if they become the nominee.

But this fantasy that Sanders is the best candidate to take on trump is just that, a fantasy.  Why do you think Trump wants Sanders to be his competitor?

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/01/trump-bernie-sanders-socialism.html

The problem isn't so much Sanders politics; it's that his politics just isn't as accepted in America as progressives want it to be.  Nor has anyone given his policy and real scrutiny on how exactly he'll pay for them.  The truth is America already has trillions in unfunded mandates already on the books that it likely can't afford to pay in the coming decades.  Without a drastic reinvention of the American economy (which isn't happening without a major depression like what America felt in the 1930s), Sanders' policy would only add tens of trillions of dollars to the national debt.  It's reckless and unsustainable.  

Trump knows this.  It's why he'll run on a platform of fear, particularly a far of socialism.  A Sanders nomination makes Trump's strategy far more effective.  

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2 minutes ago, downzy said:

You reference the Lima group (something America isn't even officially apart of) as though that's suppose to mean anything. 

Its painfully obvious that the USA isnt part of Lima Group. You say that as if its supposed to mean anything.

And yes the Lima Group 'means something' in the conversation about coercing regime change.

The Lima Group is where Canada works with Bolsonaro in opposition to tyranny? 

 

 

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Just now, soon said:

Its painfully obvious that the USA isnt part of Lima Group. You say that as if its supposed to mean anything.

And yes the Lima Group 'means something' in the conversation about coercing regime change.

The Lima Group is where Canada works with Bolsonaro in opposition to tyranny? 

 

 

LOL, coercing regime change.  I guess governments of the 80s were guilty of coercing regime change in South Africa.

Again, please spell out how the Lima group is part of American economic warfare against Venzuela.  Your comments have been limited to simple implication as if you're actually making a point.  

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Just now, downzy said:

LOL, coercing regime change.  

First explain how this is funny to you?

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4 minutes ago, soon said:

First explain how this is funny to you?

Because it's not coercion. 

It's the united condemnation by nearly every South American, most Central American, and Canada to the actions of the Maduro's government to undermine the 2015 elections of the National Assembly and the subsequent events and escalation in the following years.

But somehow the mention of "Lima Group," something you seem to know nothing about other than the name, is proof of economic warfare by the US against the people of Venezuela.  

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Just now, downzy said:

Because it's not coercion. 

It's the united condemnation by nearly every South American, most Central American, and Canada to the actions of the Maduro's government to undermine the 2015 elections of the National Assembly.

But somehow the mention of "Lima Group," something you seem to know nothing about other than the name, is proof of economic warfare by the US against the people of Venezuela.  

No. I said that one issue facing the Venezuelan people was the US economic warfare (which you've spoken about the sanctions). And I said another issue facing the Venezuelan people is the Lima Group. You seem to be conflating the two.

I'd love for you to demonstrate that I don't know about the Lima Group? 

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1 minute ago, soon said:

No. I said that one issue facing the Venezuelan people was the US economic warfare (which you've spoken about the sanctions). And I said another issue facing the Venezuelan people is the Lima Group. You seem to be conflating the two.

I'd love for you to demonstrate that I don't know about the Lima Group? 

You've already demonstrated that fact by stating that the Lima group constitutes coercion by foreign nations for regime change.  

Regardless, your suggestion that the economic misery that Venezuela finds itself in is the product of foreign coercion, interference, and outright economic warfare is devoid of any real knowledge or understanding of what has happened within the country and how Maduro's policies have led the country to ruin. 

You have only mentioned the Lima Group as an implication in place of any real substantiation. 

But I guess it's just easier to make passing references to the Lima Group rather than put forward a real argument that defends your position.  

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Not in America, and our media is limited.  What's the latest with the Trump impeachment proceedings? What's the likely outcome? 

Edited by jimisbatman

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2 hours ago, jimisbatman said:

Not in America, and our media is limited.  What's the latest with the Trump impeachment proceedings? What's the likely outcome? 

Its a circus pretty much. Republicans couldn't care less if Trump did anything wrong and Democrats have decided to take a simple abuse of power case that has nothing to do with Russia and make it about Russia.

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14 hours ago, downzy said:

You've already demonstrated that fact by stating that the Lima group constitutes coercion by foreign nations for regime change.  

Regardless, your suggestion that the economic misery that Venezuela finds itself in is the product of foreign coercion, interference, and outright economic warfare is devoid of any real knowledge or understanding of what has happened within the country and how Maduro's policies have led the country to ruin. 

You have only mentioned the Lima Group as an implication in place of any real substantiation. 

But I guess it's just easier to make passing references to the Lima Group rather than put forward a real argument that defends your position.  

Below are some of my previous posts of times I've spoken about the Lima Group in this thread. I invite you to read them. They are complete with lots of great links that I trust you will find informative. One link seems dead so I will include a fresh one. I'll also start you off with a few of the links here:

Spoiler

- The Lima Groups declaration (dead link in my first post)

https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/latin_america-amerique_latine/2019-01-04-lima_group-groupe_lima.aspx?lang=eng

Updated: https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/latin_america-amerique_latine/2019-05-03-lima_group-groupe_lima.aspx?lang=eng

 

- Economic Warfare

"Here is the fact: The sanctions that the U.S. has slapped on Venezuela cost the country an estimated $30 million a day. That should be the scandal. The U.S. is depriving the Venezuelan people of $30 million a day and then turning around and declaring Maduro one of the great monsters of history for blocking a shipment that the U.S. tried to drive into Venezuela without any coordination with the government or with major aid agencies.

The International Committee of the Red Cross has refused to participate in Washington’s aid stunt with its spokesperson in Colombia saying “We will not be participating in what is, for us, not humanitarian aid.” Another senior Red Cross official said the U.S. aid had a “political tone.”"

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neoliberalism-or-death-the-u-s-economic-war-against-venezuela/?campaign=homepage-podcast-intercepted

On Feb 25th, 2019 US VP Mike Pence chaired a meeting of the Lima Group and called on the groups nations to freeze all assets of Venezuelas nationalized oil agency.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/lima-group-bogota-venezuela-1.5032202

 

- War criminal Elliot Abrams running point on Venezuela 

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/day-6/segment/15672186

Post #1 

Post #2

Post #3

 

Edited by soon

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3 hours ago, soon said:

Below are some of my previous posts of times I've spoken about the Lima Group in this thread. I invite you to read them. They are complete with lots of great links that I trust you will find informative. One link seems dead so I will include a fresh one. I'll also start you off with a few of the links here:

  Reveal hidden contents

- The Lima Groups declaration (dead link in my first post)

https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/latin_america-amerique_latine/2019-01-04-lima_group-groupe_lima.aspx?lang=eng

Updated: https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/latin_america-amerique_latine/2019-05-03-lima_group-groupe_lima.aspx?lang=eng

 

- Economic Warfare

"Here is the fact: The sanctions that the U.S. has slapped on Venezuela cost the country an estimated $30 million a day. That should be the scandal. The U.S. is depriving the Venezuelan people of $30 million a day and then turning around and declaring Maduro one of the great monsters of history for blocking a shipment that the U.S. tried to drive into Venezuela without any coordination with the government or with major aid agencies.

The International Committee of the Red Cross has refused to participate in Washington’s aid stunt with its spokesperson in Colombia saying “We will not be participating in what is, for us, not humanitarian aid.” Another senior Red Cross official said the U.S. aid had a “political tone.”"

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neoliberalism-or-death-the-u-s-economic-war-against-venezuela/?campaign=homepage-podcast-intercepted

On Feb 25th, 2019 US VP Mike Pence chaired a meeting of the Lima Group and called on the groups nations to freeze all assets of Venezuelas nationalized oil agency.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/lima-group-bogota-venezuela-1.5032202

 

- War criminal Elliot Abrams running point on Venezuela 

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/day-6/segment/15672186

Post #1 

Post #2

Post #3

 

Again, all of your posts are founded on the absurd assumption that U.S. actions towards Venezuela and whatever lofty statements by the Lima Group represent a coup against the state of Venezuela.

I would be inclined to agree if any of your posts actually described concrete actions that foreign interests are taking to actually facilitate an actual coup.  Countries are allowed to, save for military engagement, decide and conduct diplomatic and economic relations however they see fit.  If Canada, Brazil, the U.S., Mexico, Colombia, and nearly every other South American country feel they can use their diplomatic and economic tools to put pressure on Maduro's autocratic and corrupt government, it's their right to do so.  Personally, I think only the deranged could find fault in that or place any responsibility for the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela on foreign efforts to move Venezuela to a nation that respects an impartial judicial and electoral system. 

Moreover, the Maduro's hold on power is indeed illegitimate for a whole host of reasons (some I've already described, some I have not).  He has repeatedly undermined elections to cling to power while upending the authority of the National Assembly and delegitimized the court system by packing the courts with his own cronies.

I just don't see efforts by foreign governments to push for the return of democracy and legitimate representative governance in the state of Venezuela as a pejorative mandate.  Again, the pain and misery that has been going on in Venezuela is the product of internal actions by corrupt government.  It is not the product of foreign intervention.  

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26 minutes ago, downzy said:

Again, all of your posts are founded on the absurd assumption that U.S. actions towards Venezuela and whatever lofty statements by the Lima Group represent a coup against the state of Venezuela.

There is a difference between backing a coup and being its architect. Some of my posts present facts that highlight how the Lima Groups is backing the coup.

Also the Lima Group members have imposed sanctions and frozen assets so its not honest to characterize their actions as merely "lofty statements."

29 minutes ago, downzy said:

Personally, I think only the deranged could find fault in that or place any responsibility for the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela on foreign efforts to move Venezuela to a nation that respects an impartial judicial and electoral system. 

I know I presented a lot of info, so maybe you missed this part,

4 hours ago, soon said:

"Here is the fact: The sanctions that the U.S. has slapped on Venezuela cost the country an estimated $30 million a day. That should be the scandal. The U.S. is depriving the Venezuelan people of $30 million a day and then turning around and declaring Maduro one of the great monsters of history for blocking a shipment that the U.S. tried to drive into Venezuela without any coordination with the government or with major aid agencies.

The International Committee of the Red Cross has refused to participate in Washington’s aid stunt with its spokesperson in Colombia saying “We will not be participating in what is, for us, not humanitarian aid.” Another senior Red Cross official said the U.S. aid had a “political tone.”"

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neoliberalism-or-death-the-u-s-economic-war-against-venezuela/?campaign=homepage-podcast-intercepted

 

 

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25 minutes ago, soon said:

There is a difference between backing a coup and being its architect. Some of my posts present facts that highlight how the Lima Groups is backing the coup.

Also the Lima Group members have imposed sanctions and frozen assets so its not honest to characterize their actions as merely "lofty statements."

I know I presented a lot of info, so maybe you missed this part,

 

 

That would all be true if Venezuela wasn't already mired in economic collapse prior to the sanctions that are targeted to the leaders of the Maduro government and to the state-owned oil and gas company, PDVSA.

Again, it's not a coup.  There haven't been fair and non-corrupt elections in Venezuela for years.  Maduro only clings to power by packing the courts, delegitimizing the National Assembly, and using pay-to-vote schemes to stay in power.  It's a "democracy" in name only.  

As the recent polls indicate, nearly 9 in 10 Venezuelans want Maduro gone.  International pressure to push Maduro from power that he clings to without the backing of a majority of Venezuelans isn't a coop.  

BTW, sanctions constituting $30 million a day, even if it were directed towards the Venezuelan people (which they are not), is a drop in the bucket.  PDVSA generates between $40 to $50 billion USD a year annually. 

Also, you might want to check your "information."  I can't find any source that says the Lima Group, as a united body, has made any move to freeze the assets of the Venezuelan government.  The Americans have, but from my understanding and reading into the situation, no member of the Lima Group has frozen government owned assets from abroad.  Again, the sanctions have been specific to particular Maduro officials, and not designed to affect persons not specified by name.  

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5 hours ago, -W.A.R- said:

Just want to say how much i love Anya :wub:

She is fine. Great video and analysis too. Will have to check out more from her.

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21 hours ago, -W.A.R- said:

 

Compare how Washington handles Israel/Palestine to how it handled South Africa in the late 80's/early 90's. South Africa was threatened with military force by HW Bush if they didn't end apartheid and essentially have a one state solution. Now see how every Washington administration has handled Israel, they are allowed to run an apartheid state and then the solution offered is a two state solution where the Palestinian Arabs will get a non contiguous state that looks like a gerrymandered district. It's almost as if zionists have a lot of power over Washington and South African Boers in the 80's/90's didn't. 

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On 2020-01-29 at 4:56 AM, jimisbatman said:

Not in America, and our media is limited.  What's the latest with the Trump impeachment proceedings? What's the likely outcome? 

In short form:

The latest is as predicted, Trump will be acquitted. This means he stays in power and is set for a Nov election.  The people will decide if he gets another 4 years, which by the looks of things is a sure bet.

So nothing changes, Trump wins again and we have 4 more years of people that love him and people that spend way too much time hating him.  Looking from Canada, love him or hate him he is very popular on both sides which only boosts him up.

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2 hours ago, gunsguy said:

In short form:

The latest is as predicted, Trump will be acquitted. This means he stays in power and is set for a Nov election.  The people will decide if he gets another 4 years, which by the looks of things is a sure bet.

So nothing changes, Trump wins again and we have 4 more years of people that love him and people that spend way too much time hating him.  Looking from Canada, love him or hate him he is very popular on both sides which only boosts him up.

Sorry, but what?

Trump is loathed by a vast majority of Canadians.  Most polls show Trump with a net favourability in Canada between 20-30 percent. There is little to no basis to suggest Trump is in any way popular in Canada. 

Also, there is little basis to assume Trump’s re-election this year is a safe bet. Trump currently has the lowest approval rating in modern American politics at this point in his Presidency. It is far lower that George H.W. Bush and Jimmy Carter who lost their bids for re-election.  The current polling shows that the impeachment proceedings haven’t had any real effect on Trump’s favourability or state polling.  He is still competitive in most battleground states, but it’s looking like he’s still going to have to draw to an inside straight to win re-election. He did it in 2016 so it would be foolish to write him off, but it is wrong to suggest that because of the impeachment proceedings he’s set for re-election in November. 

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"The leaks from John Bolton’s forthcoming book are only the most recent revelations in the impeachment process. But despite all the revelations from current and former Trump officials, the chart of public support for removing Trump from office has been a flat line. Nothing changes people’s views.

To unpack those numbers more, consider this pattern. At the height of Watergate, the overall share of people who wanted to remove the president was not much different than it is today. In fact, days before Richard Nixon resigned, only 71 percent of Democrats supported his removal, compared with 89 percent who now support removing President Trump. Then, 55 percent of independents supported removal, similar to the 48 percent who do now. The biggest shift is with Republicans. In August 1974, 31 percent of Republicans favored Nixon’s removal. Today, only 8 percent of Republicans feel that way about Trump.

The story of this impeachment is the story of American politics today: polarization."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-the-story-of-impeachment-tells-the-story-of-polarization/2020/01/30/cdf1ad28-43a4-11ea-b5fc-eefa848cde99_story.html?fbclid=IwAR1L6XMZHDSRVfHAPFqLMtLejJ1teHep5V5dG7dAutd86-7aobiMzSCApA8

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10 minutes ago, downzy said:

"The leaks from John Bolton’s forthcoming book are only the most recent revelations in the impeachment process. But despite all the revelations from current and former Trump officials, the chart of public support for removing Trump from office has been a flat line. Nothing changes people’s views.

To unpack those numbers more, consider this pattern. At the height of Watergate, the overall share of people who wanted to remove the president was not much different than it is today. In fact, days before Richard Nixon resigned, only 71 percent of Democrats supported his removal, compared with 89 percent who now support removing President Trump. Then, 55 percent of independents supported removal, similar to the 48 percent who do now. The biggest shift is with Republicans. In August 1974, 31 percent of Republicans favored Nixon’s removal. Today, only 8 percent of Republicans feel that way about Trump.

The story of this impeachment is the story of American politics today: polarization."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-the-story-of-impeachment-tells-the-story-of-polarization/2020/01/30/cdf1ad28-43a4-11ea-b5fc-eefa848cde99_story.html?fbclid=IwAR1L6XMZHDSRVfHAPFqLMtLejJ1teHep5V5dG7dAutd86-7aobiMzSCApA8

The most diverse (in all ways possible) country in the history of the world is polarized...color me shocked!

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26 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The most diverse (in all ways possible) country in the history of the world is polarized...color me shocked!

You call a two party system "diverse?" No, thats not diverse.

Also, being diverse and being polarized is actually not such an obvious outcome, as the word diverse implies a plurality. How is it obvious that those pluralities would align themselves in two binary camps?

And the answer to that question is, the one polarity is the dominant white, power structure. The other is everyone they fear and seek to subjugate to maintain their undeserved power-over. Its not a naturally occurring situation.

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