Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread (SPOILERS WITHIN)

[James Bond]

8 hours ago, luciusfunk said:

Ackbar didn't do it because his actor died in the middle of filming. Also, I've seen people say having Ackbar ram the ship into Snoke's ship is too close to "Allah Akbar".

Well he was technically a combination of a puppeteer and a voice actor. The original voice actor died but he was voice by someone else in The Last Jedi from what I can see. Allah Akbar though...

[James Bond]

1 hour ago, Powerage5 said:

I loved K-2SO. Reminded me of HK-47 in Knights Of The Old Republic. I also really liked Chirrut - it was interesting to see someone who was Force-sensitive but not actually a Jedi. I'd like to see more of that in other spinoffs.

Chirrut's mantra was one of the things I liked about the film. I just wish we could have learned more about him. Too late for that though.

[rocknroll41]

Alright, I'm ready to rank all the films now, Last Jedi included. I decided to do it in the spoiler thread, cause I wanna use moments from each film, including the new one, to justify each of their positions in the ranking.

From least-favorite to favorite:

9. Attack of the Clones

I can't think of a single thing I like about this film. The whole thing looks like it was shot like a videogame, for starters. The acting delivery is terrible (especially from Hayden and Portman). The plot makes no sense. The movie is so poorly paced that we only meet the main villain more than halfway through and have no idea what his personal motivations are. Worst of all, that god-awful romance! Really? They get married after really only knowing eachother for a few days?

8. The Phantom Menace

There are actually some good ideas in this one, like the undersea city and chase sequence, the pod race, the three-way lightsaber duel at the end, and so on. It's the execution that ruins all of it. The undersea city has those annoying Gungan creatures, the chase that follows has Jar Jar screaming like an idiot, the pod race drags and is unrealistic (even with the Force, how does a little kid do all of that while everyone else is dying?), and the three-way duel isn't as engaging as it should be cause the characters are so cardboard, barely have any motivation, and we don't really know anything about them. To be fair, these visual moments are iconic at surface-level, but they're also stuck in the middle of pure cringe like Jar Jar being all over the plot, the little kid being near-literal Jesus for some reason, the Force being a biological point-system, and everything that happens on Coruscant (like the senate debate that lasts forever and the dry Jedi meetings and what not). Portman's acting is also very wooden here, and Obi-Wan is almost a non-character. Like I said, though, the film manages to be barely saved by some very well-shot, visually iconic moments. 

7. Revenge of the Sith

Obviously the best of the prequels, since it actually feels like massive events happen here. I would also argue that Hayden's acting is a bit better here, and Ewan pours out some great emotion. Jimmy Smits, Yoda, and the Emperor are also fun. Every line delivered by Portman is still pure cringe, though. Furthermore, rather than the pacing being too slow like in the other two prequels, here it's too fast. Anakin goes from being a pretty nice guy to being a child murderer in like ten minutes. It also feels cheap that he was basically tricked into joining the dark side, rather than being genuinely seduced. The lava fight in the end also forces the audience to have to stretch their imaginations too much (even if they're Jedi, it seems pretty unrealistic that they would even be able to set foot on a planet like that). Like with Phantom, however, this film does have some great visual iconography, as well as some great moments (like the opening sequence on the ship). Damn shame the handful of juicy bits here are still trapped in an otherwise bad film.

6. Rogue One

The first 15 or 20 minutes of this film are an utter mess. It jumps around everywhere, and we barely get a chance to figure out who exactly all these characters are supposed to be. Everything with Forest Whitaker is also just dreadful. After he dies, though, the film gets much better. I really like everything that happens on both the rain planet, as well as the tropical planet. The space battle is also a highlight of the entire series. I like the main antagonist (Krennic), as well as the way Vader was handled. I liked Tarkin's role in the story as well, but hated that he was CGI. They shoulda had a different Imperial officer reporting Tarkin's orders, or something. Or maybe keep Tarkin obscured by shadows and silhouettes (same for Leia at the end). Nonetheless, I still thought it was pretty cool and unique to see all the main characters die at the end (I especially love the way the two leads go out, and the music that plays during that sequence). I feel all of the deaths were handled with class. So yeah, I like the second and third acts of this film...That first act, though...What a mess!

5. The Last Jedi

Here you go, folks! I rank the new one right in the middle of the series. Right off the bat, the Yoda and R2 scenes, and the saber fight, were near-perfection! The Kylo-and-Rey connection was also interesting. However, I don't really like how Luke basically created Kylo Ren. It felt pretty out-of-character. I guess it was needed, though, to make Rey sympathize with Ben/Kylo, so that the audience could feel the possibility of her falling to the dark side (thus creating some tension). Also, it justifies why Luke felt so guilt-stricken to the point where he would exile himself on that island and literally cut himself off from the Force. Also, the deconstruction of Luke's character I feel was made up for in the end, when he used all the Force energy he had left in him to create a prime version of himself to distract the First Order while the Rebels escaped. An artful sacrifice, imo. Speaking of art, I really enjoyed the look of this film. All of the worlds felt different, yet still seemed like they could exist in the Star Wars universe. I liked Ridley as Rey, and liked that her backstory was a "nothing" backstory (a nice reversal), but I felt the character itself could've been developed/ fleshed-out more. Kylo, on the other hand, was fleshed out very well, and I liked that he killed Snoke and took his place. However, the fact that we never found out who Snoke actually was is pretty frustrating. Furthermore, I think everything to do with the subplots revolving around the secondary characters (Leia, Poe, Finn, Rose, Holdo, DJ, Phasma, Maz etc.) were pretty damn pointless, in hindsight. I know earlier I said I liked Holdo and how she "guided" Poe into understanding what it meant to really be a leader, but now that I think harder on it, the fact that she didn't just tell him the plan right away is pretty stupid. It also felt like Finn and Rose had nothing to really do, and the fact that Finn wanted to run away again regressed his character development (Awakens was all about him learning NOT to run away). Their romance also felt very forced, and dull. So yeah, the film is a pretty even blend of things I like and things I dislike, which is probably why I rank it right in the middle. Objectively, it's probably worse than Rogue One, but I'd rather rewatch a movie about Jedi, the Force, Luke, Kylo, Rey, etc. than a movie about stealing the Death Star plans.

4. The Force Awakens

I know it's "cool" to hate this one now. And believe me, I also have my issues with it. Yes, it played things a tad too safe. However, coming off the prequels, and with the astronomically-high expectations, that's really all they could do for the most part. The character development is also a little off, yes, but the film still ends with the possibility that the characters could all grow and become more interesting in the sequels. That didn't really end up working out, but it's not this film's fault, really. The ending still made me feel excited for things to come. And even when I go back and watch it now, I'm at least still reminded of that excitement. I'm also not really as ticked-off by reboots and nostalgia trips as most people probably are. So me ranking this film as high as I do probably has more to do with personal taste, than anything. Also, while they did regress the characters of Luke, Han, and Leia a bit, I felt doing so was necessary in order to create a new interesting conflict for these new characters to then take forward. Plus, the regression was made up for with absolutely stellar performances by Ford and Fisher, as well as that iconic ending with Luke (another series highlight, for me). My only real gripe is that it's never explained how the First Order, which is established as just a military junta, was able to get the resources for creating something as massive as Starkiller Base.

3. Return of the Jedi

I used to make fun of this film, but it has since grown on me. Yes, the plan to rescue Han in the beginning is dragged-out and doesn't make much sense, but it still servers as a great re-introduction to all of the characters. The Yoda/Obi-Wan scenes on Dagobah are a little repetative, but they provide closure. The fact that Han and Lando are just friends again out of nowhere makes no sense, but it's a detail I can overlook for the sake of keeping the pacing of the film as tight as it is. The Ewoks, while annoying, server a pretty nice metaphor for "never underestimate the little guy" and "nature trumps materialism" or whatever. I actually kinda liked seeing a different, more fatherly side of Han when he was interacting with them. Made him feel kinda grown (though it's still pretty obvious Ford was phoning it in at that point). Vader was less intimidating this time around, but it worked for his transition back to the good side that happens at the end. Also, everything with Luke was a pure work of art imo. Same with everything for the Emperor. The space battle here is also among the most impressive, and blowing up another Death Star here actually worked for me, cause it kinda brought things full circle. So overall, the film may not stand well on its own, but as a conclusion for a bigger story, its fantastic.

2. The Empire Strikes Back

Surprised? I know everyone usually ranks this one as their top. Objectively speaking, this one is actually the best in the series. I don't even think I need to explain why it's as perfect as it is. The movie does a great job speaking for itself. However, I rank the original just a hair above it, and I'll explain why:

1. Star Wars (1977)

Like for many others, this was my main introduction to the series (I had seen part of Phantom on TV a little earlier but didn't pay much attention). What an introduction this was! A near-perfect film! Yes, it has minor issues due to the limited budget and resources at the time, but that's excusable given the tight circumstances they were in while making this. Plus, I feel the minor flaws add to the very unique "charm" of this movie. It's amazing to think how this one film created such a massive tidal wave in pop culture. Every time I rewatch it, I immediately get taken back to when I first saw it as a kid and was blown away. Emotionally speaking, this is my favorite film ever (objectively speaking, my favorite film is Cameron's Aliens). 

Damn, that was fun to finally write!

[Georgy Zhukov]

Here's what I am hoping. Since Rian Johnson decided to ignore all the breadcrumbs from JJ in The Force Awakens, JJ should bring back Luke as if nothing happened in the last film. Snoke will be still alive, Kylo is still exploring the dark side, and Rey finds out who her parents are. 

[rocknroll41]

21 minutes ago, Georgy Zhukov said:

Here's what I am hoping. Since Rian Johnson decided to ignore all the breadcrumbs from JJ in The Force Awakens, JJ should bring back Luke as if nothing happened in the last film. Snoke will be still alive, Kylo is still exploring the dark side, and Rey finds out who her parents are. 

The closest thing I can see to that is luke and Snoke reappearing as ghosts and Rey's parents being retconned into abandoning her for another reason, and maybe the "drinking money" thing is a false memory kylo put into her head (or Snoke put into both their heads). Doubt thatll actually happen though.

[Georgy Zhukov]

14 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said:

The closest thing I can see to that is luke and Snoke reappearing as ghosts and Rey's parents being retconned into abandoning her for another reason, and maybe the "drinking money" thing is a false memory kylo put into her head (or Snoke put into both their heads). Doubt thatll actually happen though.

No, I mean ignore all the events in the previous film. Just Poe having a bad acid trip or something. Or it was all part of Finn's dream since he was unconscious at the end of TFA.

[Gibson87]

I just wanna say that I didn't like that Finn was saved when he was flying into the mini death star lazer. I don't want him to die but fuck, it would have been such an epic scene if the girl (Rose, I think?) hadn't saved him.

I thought Luke projecting himself so the others could escape was pretty cool though. 

[DieselDaisy]

1/ Empire Strikes Back 

2/ Star Wars

3/ Return of the Jedi 

(then a big drop-off in quality) 

4/ Revenge of the Sith

5/ Rogue One

6/ Phantom Menace

7/ Force Awakens

8/ Attack of the Clones

9/ The Last Jedi

[Amir]

 

[luciusfunk]

3 hours ago, Amir said:

 

It was all a dream. I used to read Force Up magazine.

[DR DOOM]

I wish they had just left "the story" alone. These new movies aren't very "Star Wars-y"...are they going to have Chewie tortured and killed next?

They may as well have said the baddies dropped an atom bomb on the heroes while they rejoiced on Endor in ROTJ...what a fuck in the ass these movies are.

For all the shit he cops, these turds at least prove that Star Wars needs George Lucas.

[luciusfunk]

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-backlash-negative-fan-reactions-rotten-tomatoes-score/amp

 

MAGA-esque fanboys. Vanity Fair is fucking retarded. They're talking about how it got an A on cinemascore, so it must be great. Daddy's Home 2 got an A-. Boo 2 Madea Halloween got an A-.

[DR DOOM]

I've been a Star Wars fan since before I can remember, and walked out of the cinema for this one and TFA feeling like they were defacing the original movies/story.

[DieselDaisy]

Yes, the life expectancy of the original posse is short during this era of the Star Wars timeline: Han, Luke and (presumably) Leia. Chewie and the two droids must be quaking. It is hard to escape the feeling that they brought them back merely to bump them off!

[Nicklord]

 

[luciusfunk]

[RussTCB]

When I walked out of TLJ I just had a feeling of "I'm not sure if I liked that or not". In the past several days, I've figured out that I disliked it greatly.

[Gibson87]

My ranking of the 9 films

1. ESB

2. ROTJ

3. ANH

4. ROTS

5. AOTC

6. TFA

7. TPM

8. Rogue One

9. TLJ

[Daedalus]

Here is an interview with Rian Johnson - "reacts to the backlash and addresses the movie's most shocking moments"

http://www.thisisinsider.com/star-wars-rian-johnson-interview-about-the-last-jedi-fan-backlash-2017-12?utm_content=buffer96d53&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-art

[ZoSoRose]

Ok here is my copy and pasted thoughts on the movie!

TLDR- Loved it, but get SOME of the complaints!

I definitely get the complaints with the story direction. I think it just is the natural course of getting sequels. ROTJ ended the story. We didnt need these sequels, but they are the movies fans have been fantasizing about for decades. Now that we have them, its natural the original heroes didnt have peace and quiet after the OT. The writers have to make new conflicts and stories to make it interesting (like Luke's story arc in this movie). I ended up liking his story a lot even though its the exact opposite of what I thought Id have wanted. So yeah, this is the trade off we get. Was it worth it? Up to the viewer.

As some of you know, I really liked The Force Awakens but always agreed with complaints saying it was too similar to ANH. I didn't mind that so long as subsequent episodes were different. JJ wanted to get the sour taste of the prequels out of people's mouths so he played it safe and leaned on TFA being more of a nostalgia fest a-la GNR reunion. I thought that was fine, but it would be a problem if TLJ was an Empire Strikes Back Clone. I wanted it to be different. TLJ definitely is different, and in doing so I can see why its an either "love it or hate it kind of thing". I thought the main story was awesome. I was really into they Rey/Luke/Kylo story which was the meat of the movie. I know what they had Luke do is really controversial in regards to handling almost killing Ben Solo, but that is the perfect motivation for Ben turning. What could be worse than thinking your own family wants to kill you? ROTJ Luke may not have failed, but nobody's perfect and for a brief second Luke almost succumbed to the dark side. Even if he changed his mind, the damage was done. A big theme of the movie is learning from failure, and Luke had a great payoff in the end. Luke in the last act was like the ultimate portrayal of the character for me. I also ended up liking the idea of "anyone can be special". It doesn't mean everyone can start being crazy powerful force users in my mind, but it throws out the old notion of what a Jedi is. I liked how Luke called out the hubris and hypocrisy of the old Jedi order. We saw how badly it failed in the prequels, and it was a good way for this movie to tie into the prequels and take criticisms on how it handled the Jedi. The Jedi order we saw at its peak was a glorified political party that had huge ego problems and because of that let the Republic fall. I thought it was pretty cool how this film tore all that upside down. 

Regarding Snoke, he just served as a plot device for Kylo Ren. I would have liked just a line or 2 of backstory to explain sort of who he was, how he restructured the Imperial remnants, and where he was for the rest of the saga but I guess it doesn't matter much because his purpose is to enhance Kylo/Ben's character and to the casual viewer he is just Emperor 2.0. I really liked Serkis' performance though for the scenes we got him in. Fun to watch imo. Kylo is really the main character and ultimate villain for me in this trilogy. He has more depth than any other Star Wars villain and Adam Driver is awesome. Its way more interesting to completely shift the focus to him than another super evil spooky force user without much depth. Palapatine was awesome, but Im ok with a new type of bad guy instead of a rehash. 

As much as I REALLY loved the movie, but it still isn't perfect for me. I thought this was Williams' weakest Star Wars score. It wasn't bad, but none of the new themes were that memorable. The entire Finn and Rose subplot was a missed opportunity for me. I don't mind Finn at all, but the storyline just felt awkward, messed with the tone, and bloated an already packed movie. Having them go on a side mission while there was a race-against-the clock chase felt weird. I was happy to have a bit more world building, but I thought the casino looked and felt too much like a real one, not "alien" enough and there wasn't a super engaging character in that plot line to really get you to care about watching those scenes. It didn't take up THAT much of the movie though, and the last half of the movie was pretty much near perfect for me in terms of a Star Wars movie. So many scenes that rank among the best in the series for me- everything in the throne room, the light speed charge, Luke and Yoda, Luke and Leia, and then Luke and Kylo... awesome. So yeah, it wasn't perfect for me but I think its a great movie. It is messier than TFA but I'd rank it above it because it is different, changes the series up, and has a lot of the series' best moments (imo).

[Bono]

How the fuck did they miss the opportunity to have Luke raise the X-Wing fighter out of the water. Why bother showing it there if they didn't plan on showcasing this come full circle moment. I mean...... fuck!  It could've been this epic coming of age, full circle moment and they could've even added a bit of comedy to it as well by having Yoda appear to watch it happen and once Luke has pulled it off he could look over to Yoda with an expression that says "Impressed?" and they you could have Yoda shrug his shoulders as if to say "big deal". It's such an obvious thing that should've been included it makes me wonder sometimes if the people even refer to the originals at all or not when making these movies. 

[Amir]

1 hour ago, Bono said:

How the fuck did they miss the opportunity to have Luke raise the X-Wing fighter out of the water. Why bother showing it there if they didn't plan on showcasing this come full circle moment. I mean...... fuck!  It could've been this epic coming of age, full circle moment and they could've even added a bit of comedy to it as well by having Yoda appear to watch it happen and once Luke has pulled it off he could look over to Yoda with an expression that says "Impressed?" and they you could have Yoda shrug his shoulders as if to say "big deal". It's such an obvious thing that should've been included it makes me wonder sometimes if the people even refer to the originals at all or not when making these movies. 

The X-Wing in the water was all set up as a misdirect as that's how we'd expect Luke to return to the fight on Crait, etc.

While I'm not the biggest fan of the film, I do like the shot of Luke meditating in the lotus pose on Ahch-To while force projecting.

6 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

I thought this was Williams' weakest Star Wars score.

I wasn't that big a fan of TFA's score, either, but I really liked The Jedi Steps. From TLJ the only themes which stood out were Canto Bight and from 2:15 in The Spark (also used in the trailer):

 

[James Bond]

I think the fact that he is 85 and stil scoring Star Wars is pretty badass.

[ZoSoRose]

58 minutes ago, Amir said:

The X-Wing in the water was all set up as a misdirect as that's how we'd expect Luke to return to the fight on Crait, etc.

While I'm not the biggest fan of the film, I do like the shot of Luke meditating in the lotus pose on Ahch-To while force projecting.

I wasn't that big a fan of TFA's score, either, but I really liked The Jedi Steps. From TLJ the only themes which stood out were Canto Bight and from 2:15 in The Spark (also used in the trailer):

 

I liked TFA score quite a bit. Reys theme, Kylos music, Resistence theme are also great

2 minutes ago, James Bond said:

I think the fact that he is 85 and stil scoring Star Wars is pretty badass.

Oh yeah for sure. There is nobody Id rather score the Sequel Trilogy. The music is still phenominal, I just think this was his weakest score of the 8

[Bono]

1 hour ago, Amir said:

The X-Wing in the water was all set up as a misdirect as that's how we'd expect Luke to return to the fight on Crait, etc.

While I'm not the biggest fan of the film, I do like the shot of Luke meditating in the lotus pose on Ahch-To while force projecting.

I wasn't that big a fan of TFA's score, either, but I really liked The Jedi Steps. From TLJ the only themes which stood out were Canto Bight and from 2:15 in The Spark (also used in the trailer):

 

I don't give a shit about what he used the X-Wing for. I didn't need to be misdirected for that final scene and him pulling the X-Wing out of the water doesn't mean he couldn't have done what he did at the end still. I didn't need Luke flying into battle. He could've gone anywhere with it or gone nowhere at all. Maybe there was something in it he needed. It was a huge missed opportunity for a cool moment, genuine fan service and a perfect call back to Empire. Him pulling it out of the water doesn't by default negate the final scene which I liked.