Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread (SPOILERS WITHIN)

[RussTCB]

Well this is awesome:

 

[James Bond]

It's a shame. The Force Awakens was a coherent and consistent film so despite relying heavily on the originals it at least offered a promising start to the new line of films. New characters, new questions, and plenty of opportunities for exploration. So far they've yet to capitalize on the momentum. Disney probably doesn't care because everything has been a commercial success, but they really made a mess.

So far, both anthology films have had set problems, reshoots, now a change in directors, and the list continues. Han Solo is due out in May but we don't even have a poster or trailer yet. It's hard to have high hopes about the film when all signs point to disaster. Rogue One was filled with promising characters and a decent enough premise but failed to capitalize on anything it promised.

The Last Jedi suffers from many of the same problems as Rogue One which is a terrible outcome considering it's part of the main story arc.

I have a whole new appreciation for the prequels.

[OmarBradley]

On 1/3/2018 at 12:04 AM, luciusfunk said:

Think I'm gonna rank them finally.

Return of the Jedi

The Empire Strikes Back

Revenge of the Sith

A New Hope

The Phantom Menace

Attack of the Clones

Rogue One

The Last Jedi

The Force Awakens

Switch TFA and TLJ and this is literally my list.

On 1/3/2018 at 12:41 AM, downzy said:

The problem with TLJ is that it makes me reevaluate TFA.  I enjoyed TFA for what it was suppose to do: set the table, pose questions, introduce new characters, roughly outline what Luke, Leia, and Han have been up to for 40 years.  But with TLJ seeming not to give a shit about what TFA was, it kind of makes the first film in this new trilogy kind of irrelevant.  I still say it's more fun than TLJ with Han and Chewie in it, but it's disappointing that many of the setups within TFA are ignored or given poor follow-through in TLJ.

Yeah that's one of the things I was looking for in TLJ: context. It did not mesh well with TFA at all. TLJ didn't feel like part of a trilogy, it felt like a standalone movie trying to fit into an overarching meta/plot (and a plot that isn't exactly coherent or clever).

On 1/3/2018 at 1:23 AM, AslatIE said:

They should've hired all writers and directors years ago, and written an outline for the trilogy way before TFA even went into production, instead of having directors with opposing views mucking the story up.

The material on what happens post ROTJ is already there... oh wait. Thanks Disney.

On 1/3/2018 at 2:17 AM, downzy said:

I thought that was the responsibility of Kathleen Kennedy, who oversees Star Wars for Disney. 

So far nothing from Lucasfilm after being purchased by Disney can be considered great. Rogue One was decent, TFA was fun but now kind of pointless, and TLJ exposes a total lack of concern for continuity and consistency with respect to the new trilogy and iconic characters like Leia and Luke Skywalker. 

I’d still be in favour of someone more competent someday redoing the whole series from episode 1 through 9. Map things out, invest in great scripts, adhere to one aesthetic and tech environment, lock in actors for the entire series. Star Wars is a great concept but too few of the films are all that great. Empire and parts of Jedi and a New Hope are fantastic, but everything else save for Rogue One has been either a disaster or undermined but subsequent films (TFA). I’d like to see a fresh start with a new cast, new ideas, better execution, and stronger and more cohesive narrative arcs.  Some films would like Empire would only need small and simple tweaks, whereas the prequels need a complete overhaul. 

I'm conflicted on this. I like the idea of more overall coherence, but I don't like the idea of majorly touching 1 - 6.

What you hit on though is what pisses me off. There were so many great Star Wars stories to choose from for standalone movies and a new trilogy. And Disney basically said, "No, we know better than SW fans." It can also be interpreted as: "We don't care. We're going to produce what we think will make us the most money." This is a bit over the top "big evil corporation" talk even for liberal me, but fucking with SW is grievously emotionally wrenching. 

On 1/3/2018 at 7:19 AM, Iron MikeyJ said:

The prequels were a mess, yet they feel more cohesive and organized than the Disney trilogy does. That's REALLY telling imo.

Out of likes. Agreed 100%.

20 hours ago, James Bond said:

It's a shame. The Force Awakens was a coherent and consistent film so despite relying heavily on the originals it at least offered a promising start to the new line of films. New characters, new questions, and plenty of opportunities for exploration. So far they've yet to capitalize on the momentum. Disney probably doesn't care because everything has been a commercial success, but they really made a mess.

So far, both anthology films have had set problems, reshoots, now a change in directors, and the list continues. Han Solo is due out in May but we don't even have a poster or trailer yet. It's hard to have high hopes about the film when all signs point to disaster. Rogue One was filled with promising characters and a decent enough premise but failed to capitalize on anything it promised.

The Last Jedi suffers from many of the same problems as Rogue One which is a terrible outcome considering it's part of the main story arc.

I have a whole new appreciation for the prequels.

Out of likes. Also agree 100%.

[downzy]

21 hours ago, James Bond said:

I have a whole new appreciation for the prequels.

The only thing I appreciate about the prequels was that they contained a cohesive narrative.

That's about it.  

Visually they were as delicious/nutritious as a fruit roll-up and a glass of blue Kool-aid.  The heavily used CGI didn't look all that great then and time certainly hasn't done it any favours.  

Acting and dialogue were atrocious.

I still think TFA and TLJ are better movies from a technical standpoint.  Visually they're far more impressive; they feel like actual movies and not four people standing in front of a green screen the entire time.  The dialogue and acting doesn't make me want to tear my face off (for the most part).  It's just a shame they didn't follow through on what JJ started with TFA.

Personally, I'm not sure why Return of the Sith is held in such high regard amongst the prequels.  As much as the two previous films lowered my expectations, I was still thoroughly disappointed how they handled Anakin's transition into Vader.  It was too rushed, felt like they took way too long and spent too much time on Anakin rather than Vader.  It was such a pivotal moment in the Star Wars story that for it to be bungled like that made the film rank below the two previous prequels.  Young Anakin and the Clone Wars really didn't mean much to me so I didn't really care all that much that they weren't done well.  But doing such a piss-poor job with Anakin becoming Vader was unforgivable. 

 

[Georgy Zhukov]

What Lucas needed for the prequels was someone to process his story into a working script and a director to bring it all together. We've would have had better films. 

 

The Last Jedi was a huge success for Disney, but its attendance seems to be a lot lower for TFA. Last Jedi suffered a staggering 67% drop on its second weekend and keeps falling. In comparison  TFA only had a 39% drop from the biggest opening weekend ever and holds the record for biggest second weekend. It seems Abrams had a way to make a film enjoyed by both fans and the masses while Rian pissed off one end and pleased the other.

[DieselDaisy]

I still think The Force Awakens is not a very good film. 

[Lies They Tell]

Okay! I'm a little late to the party, but here's my opinion.

I enjoyed The Last Jedi more than I enjoyed The Force Awakens. I didn't hate The Force Awakens, but it was disappointing, because it had almost no new ideas. It felt almost like a remake of ANH. When there's a whole galaxy to explore in your movies, it's just inexcusable to make such an unimaginative movie. The Last Jedi at least managed to surprise me at times. And Luke was pretty awesome. But the movie was far from being amazing. I can't believe some reviews actually claimed that it's hands down the best Star Wars movie since Empire. Either Disney paid them to say that, or they saw something deeper in the story than most people.

I mean obviously the movie was trying to deal with some deeper themes. But I think The Dark Knight Rises handled the idea of becoming a symbol of hope much better than The Last Jedi did. I do give Rian Johnson credit for at least trying to put some deeper themes into the movie. But they don't save the movie from being a bit underwhelming.

Even though This movie was far more interesting than TFA was, I thought that it was still playing it too safe. I was hoping for Rey to turn to the dark side, or something... Something truly unexpected. But the most unexpected part of the movie was the death of Snoke. It was an interesting plot twist for sure, but that brings me to an other problem that I have with these new Star Wars movies. The problem of not having a proper threatening villain. Don't get me wrong, I actually like Kylo Ren. He's a pretty interesting character, but he's not really a threatening villain. Rey kicked her ass in TFA without any jedi training. He was no match for her in this movie either. The idea of Star Wars movies has always been the fight between good and evil. But these new movies feel more like good guys versus losers. There is no sense of threat in these movies. We never saw much of Snoke in TFA and I was hoping that he would turn out to be a really dark and evil villain in this one. But instead they just killed him. He turned out to be the most useless villain ever. How are we supposed to be excited about the next Star Wars movie, when there is no threat. We know that the hero Rey can beat the villain Kylo Ren easily. So what's there to be excited about?

I was excited about this movie cause I wanted to see what happened to Luke. He didn't disappoint. He was a cool character, but now even he is dead. Why should I be interested about the next movie?

Last but not least, the biggest disappointment was probably the music. I love John Williams, but I guess he's becoming too old, because this was the worst Star Wars score ever. Even Rogue One had a better soundtrack. Well, actually I liked Rogue One as a movie more than any of these new movies. To me Chirrut Imwe is the most interesting new Star Wars character. He the kind of a character that we've never seen before in Star Wars and that's what I want from these movies. Something that we've never seen before. The fact that all the heroes died in Rogue One was also something completely different. Anyway, back to the film score. It was dull. I don't think I heard even one new interesting composition in the movie. The score of TFA sucked too, but at least that one had a snippet of greatness. The Jedi steps -theme had so much potential and my thought was that if nothing else... at least we would get a complete version of The Jedi Steps in this movie. But we didn't get even that! I did not have big expectations for the soundtrack of The Last Jedi, but it still managed to disappoint.

Now I'm sounding more critical than I intended. In the end I though that the movie did many things right. It was way more interesting that TFA. But it disappointed a lot because this should have been the movie that justifies the existence of all these new Star Wars movies. But it failed in doing so.

Anyway, I'd rank the movies like this:

1. The Empire Strikes Back

2. A New Hope

3. Return of The Jedi

4. Rogue One

5. Revenge Of The Sith

6. The Last Jedi

7. The Force Awakens

8. Attack Of The Clones

9. The Phantom Menace

[Powerage5]

On 1/8/2018 at 1:34 AM, Georgy Zhukov said:

What Lucas needed for the prequels was someone to process his story into a working script and a director to bring it all together. We've would have had better films. 

 

The Last Jedi was a huge success for Disney, but its attendance seems to be a lot lower for TFA. Last Jedi suffered a staggering 67% drop on its second weekend and keeps falling. In comparison  TFA only had a 39% drop from the biggest opening weekend ever and holds the record for biggest second weekend. It seems Abrams had a way to make a film enjoyed by both fans and the masses while Rian pissed off one end and pleased the other.

I think it's much simpler as to why TFA was a bigger box office draw; it was the re-immersion into Star Wars, and one of the most anticipated films of all time. Hell, if Empire had had to follow TFA, that wouldn't even have the same box office draw. I don't think it's really any comment on the quality of the film, just the anticipation.

[rocknroll41]

12 minutes ago, Powerage5 said:

I think it's much simpler as to why TFA was a bigger box office draw; it was the re-immersion into Star Wars, and one of the most anticipated films of all time. Hell, if Empire had had to follow TFA, that wouldn't even have the same box office draw. I don't think it's really any comment on the quality of the film, just the anticipation.

I slightly disagree. I think TFA had stronger replay value since it was shorter/ easier to swallow.

Edited January 12, 2018 by rocknroll41

[DieselDaisy]

The Force Awakens was a film designed by marketing research teams probing consumer spending habits. It was a film created in corporate boardrooms. It was also thoroughly terrible. Between the two of them, Abrams and Rian, they have buggered up this trilogy. There is no way back now! But I'm not sure I really blame them to be honest. The main problem is there was no creative continuity. When Lucas delegated the directorial duties to others (Empire-Jedi) he was still present in an executive producing/storyline capacity. Here, Abrams did his film, and it was bad, then the other chap came in and did his film, a deconstruction job ripping apart Abrams' film, and it also stunk. There is no continuity or even ''agreement'' between the two films. Now the third film is certifiably shit.

There should have been someone serving as executive producer/writer with a clear vision, ''a beginning, middle and end''.

They are basically making it up as they go, hiring people ad hoc. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[downzy]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Force Awakens was a film designed by marketing research teams probing consumer spending habits. It was a film created in corporate boardrooms. It was also thoroughly terrible. Between the two of them, Abrams and Rian, they have buggered up this trilogy. There is no way back now! But I'm not sure I really blame them to be honest. The main problem is there was no creative continuity. When Lucas delegated the directorial duties to others (Empire-Jedi) he was still present in an executive producing/storyline capacity. Here, Abrams did his film, and it was bad, then the other chap came in and did his film, a deconstruction job ripping apart Abrams' film, and it also stunk. There is no continuity or even ''agreement'' between the two films. Now the third film is certifiably shit.

There should have been someone serving as executive producer/writer with a clear vision, ''a beginning, middle and end''.

They are basically making it up as they go, hiring people ad hoc. 

Appreciate your thoughts but this is your umpteenth post on TFA.  We get it, you don't like it.  Let's try to keep the focus on TLJ.  

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

Appreciate your thoughts but this is your umpteenth post on TFA.  We get it, you don't like it.  Let's try to keep the focus on TLJ.  

I do not think that is fair really. I was discussing both films above (and the third one's potential), and see the deconstruction of The Force Awakens as crucial to how The Last Jedi failed. Just the fact that Rian had to bump off two Abrams' characters, one an important character, in a very unceremonious manner tells you all you need to know.

[rocknroll41]

6 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Force Awakens was a film designed by marketing research teams probing consumer spending habits. It was a film created in corporate boardrooms. It was also thoroughly terrible. Between the two of them, Abrams and Rian, they have buggered up this trilogy. There is no way back now! But I'm not sure I really blame them to be honest. The main problem is there was no creative continuity. When Lucas delegated the directorial duties to others (Empire-Jedi) he was still present in an executive producing/storyline capacity. Here, Abrams did his film, and it was bad, then the other chap came in and did his film, a deconstruction job ripping apart Abrams' film, and it also stunk. There is no continuity or even ''agreement'' between the two films. Now the third film is certifiably shit.

There should have been someone serving as executive producer/writer with a clear vision, ''a beginning, middle and end''.

They are basically making it up as they go, hiring people ad hoc. 

Yeah even though I like the new films for the most part I agree that they should've had a gameplan from the get-go, and stuck to it. I feel the disconnect, especially with Finn. I garuntee Abrams and Johnson see him as two completely different characters. 

[James Bond]

At this point I almost wish they had just dumped a boatload of money at Abrams' doorstep to do all three, especially now that we have him back for the next one. It'll leave Johnson's as the strange middle entry in the trilogy. What we lacked in originality would have at least been made up for in consistency.

[rocknroll41]

On January 12, 2018 at 7:31 PM, James Bond said:

At this point I almost wish they had just dumped a boatload of money at Abrams' doorstep to do all three, especially now that we have him back for the next one. It'll leave Johnson's as the strange middle entry in the trilogy. What we lacked in originality would have at least been made up for in consistency.

Yeah I think abrams is the stronger director between the two because he has a better sense of pacing and seems to also have a stronger eye for cinematography. Also, I've heard that he works really hard to try to bring emotion out of his actors when on set. You feel that in TFA, as well as other films of his like ST09. You don't get that same level of emotion in TLJ, though. The acting feels a little robotic in comparison. 

Dont get me wrong, abrams has still had his misteps. I don't like Into Darkness, for instance. But I think if you pared abrams with a very good writer, we could've had a slightly better sequel trilogy. Nothing against Kasdan. I thought he did a good job with the writing of TFA, but I'm not sure if I would've wanted him to stick around for the rest of the trilogy. I think he might be passed his prime, a bit.

i feel bad for criticizing TLJ, cause overall I liked it, just not as much as TFA, is all.

Edited January 15, 2018 by rocknroll41

[Black Sabbath]

Wow. This was bad.

[rocknroll41]

43 minutes ago, Black Sabbath said:

Wow. This was bad.

I take it you just saw the movie?

[Black Sabbath]

7 minutes ago, rocknroll41 said:

I take it you just saw the movie?

Yep. Glad I didn’t pay to see it in IMAX like I originally planned.

Half of the movie was like a bad SNL skit.

[James Bond]

1 hour ago, Black Sabbath said:

Wow. This was bad.

I know that statement all too well.

[soon]

Well, I finally saw it.  Hmmmmmmmm. There is plenty I enjoy.  But I feel like most of Star Wars fandom was made to feel a fool for investing in TFA storylines, just to have them rejected outright. I dont like the separated characters having these large archs separately only to be brought together for final battle.  Probably fun for a writer director, but I felt it asked too much of me, who'd be happy to see some more Rey/Finn.  And yes, the Luke/Rey stuff needed to happen and obviously I knew it was going to be central, but I didnt care for much of the Ahch-To story line.  I was really looking forward to that being the core of the film but it just really missed the mark for me.  I certainly didnt need to see Luke Skywalker spear fishing - and to attempt to make it an action sequence of sorts...

I fully embrace Poe as a Star Wars hero and enjoyed the comedy in opening sequence.  But yeah, the comedy just kept coming, didnt it?  Im all for the 'big tent' Star Wars view so jokes should service all ages, but man oh man.

I liked the motif of animals and humanoids working together for their joint liberation.  

If Leia had to fly, did she need to do a horizontal statue of liberty power pose? lol

Did Yoda know Rey had the books when he said to Luke 'the girl already possess all the she needs' ?

On one hand we're seeing an ever increasing volume of Force endowed laity.  Paired with Luke and Yodas rejection of the Jedi texts and the light/dark oppositions the texts bred and it seems like the broken light sabre represents that the light/dark divide is being done away with. But on the other hand you have Kylo and the suggestion that the force itself built Rey to counter the dark with more light.  And Rey seems hungry for orthodoxy; training, understanding, the texts, the lineage and her "place" in that existing lineage.  I think all told we will see a 'third way' neo-orthodox Jedi Order, along with a burgeoning hope-filled, force endowed laity movement.

But its stupid to think that the story line and suggestions from one instalment will be respected in the next one, I guess.

[Georgy Zhukov]

I still don't understand how this film got great reviews. The critics must have been paid off.

[rocknroll41]

5 minutes ago, Georgy Zhukov said:

I still don't understand how this film got great reviews. The critics must have been paid off.

Coulda been a combination of that and mob mentality, as well as just simply letting the hype get to them and being in denial. Happens to me all the time.

[Georgy Zhukov]

1 minute ago, rocknroll41 said:

Coulda been a combination of that and mob mentality, as well as just simply letting the hype get to them and being in denial. Happens to me all the time.

 

Critics often have go against mob mentality, even if it meant backlash from fans. Maybe they were worried about losing subscribers. 

 

My own expectations were rather low for this film. I knew they were going to kill off another beloved character. I wasn't expecting the Godfather Part II nor the Dark Knight. I am a life long Star Wars fan but the prequels taught me to keep expectations low. I enjoyed The Force Awakens for what it is. A rehash of the original trilogy, just as Abrams has done with Star Trek. I liked Star Trek fine. I even enjoyed Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Though at least they had Spielberg and Lucas on that one. 

[rocknroll41]

7 minutes ago, Georgy Zhukov said:

 

Critics often have go against mob mentality, even if it meant backlash from fans. Maybe they were worried about losing subscribers. 

 

My own expectations were rather low for this film. I knew they were going to kill off another beloved character. I wasn't expecting the Godfather Part II nor the Dark Knight. I am a life long Star Wars fan but the prequels taught me to keep expectations low. I enjoyed The Force Awakens for what it is. A rehash of the original trilogy, just as Abrams has done with Star Trek. I liked Star Trek fine. I even enjoyed Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Though at least they had Spielberg and Lucas on that one. 

Yeah Force Awakens probably works best as like a popcorn "turn your brain off" type of movie. Same with Star Trek 2009. It'll be interesting to see how JJ handles Episode IX, cause he probably can't really do that again now that Last Jedi has pushed the franchise into this strange new direction. 

[Georgy Zhukov]

I'll probably skip it.