Red Dead Redemption 2

[action]

15 minutes ago, downzy said:

Half an hour to explain your problems with a game?  Okay...

 

I don't see the issue with making a 30 minute video to explain a point?

 

[downzy]

10 minutes ago, action said:

I don't see the issue with making a 30 minute video to explain a point?

 

Fair enough as i didn't watch it and won't until I complete the main storyline.  But a half hour criticism for a game design seems a little excessive from an outsiders perspective.  

[action]

Just now, downzy said:

Fair enough as i didn't watch it and won't until I complete the main storyline.  But a half hour criticism for a game design seems a little excessive from an outsiders perspective.  

it's purely a criticism of the gameplay. the video reckognises the brilliant storyline and well designed world. it doesn't disagree with anything you mentioned about the game. he also claims to be a rockstar fanboy, but take that for what its worth.

I have seen a  trend in rockstar games from GTAIII onwards, which I feel is well documented in this video. it's a complicated issue and goes in depth on the many aspects of it's gameplay and features. It gives lots of examples and explanation, but I don't feel the video drags on too much.

[downzy]

28 minutes ago, action said:

it's purely a criticism of the gameplay. the video reckognises the brilliant storyline and well designed world. it doesn't disagree with anything you mentioned about the game. he also claims to be a rockstar fanboy, but take that for what its worth.

I have seen a  trend in rockstar games from GTAIII onwards, which I feel is well documented in this video. it's a complicated issue and goes in depth on the many aspects of it's gameplay and features. It gives lots of examples and explanation, but I don't feel the video drags on too much.

Okay, cool.  Thanks for the run down.  I'll check it out after I'm done.  

Mind you, couldn't the same criticism be levelled against most established IPs.  Call of Duty seems like it's been the same game for at least a decade.  Same with Halo.  

[action]

19 minutes ago, downzy said:

Okay, cool.  Thanks for the run down.  I'll check it out after I'm done.  

Mind you, couldn't the same criticism be levelled against most established IPs.  Call of Duty seems like it's been the same game for at least a decade.  Same with Halo.  

I'm probably not the best person to mention COD, lol. I grew up with goldeneye, which had the framerate of a potato, with enemies which even looked like potatoes, and was played on a potato controller. yet, it's gameplay was rock solid, and was a revolution in the field of first person shooters on home console. the game was hard as nails too. it formed me as a gamer, and it's a basis to which I measure games even today.

then you had halo, which popularised regenerating health, and call of duty which popularised scripted events. as years went by the focus shifted from singleplayer to multiplayer which would have been cool if not for its focus on online and losing the option of local multiplayer in the process. So I guess you can imagine my thoughts on the series.

I hope you enjoy your experience with RDR2 though. it all comes down to personal preference.

I absolutely loved RDR1 by the way, and I hope they port it to the switch. I liked it's gameplay, and I thought gameplay wise it was rockstar's best game. but RDR2, surprisingly, seems to let go of some of the best gameplay elements of RDR1. 

[ZoSoRose]

Honestly, the only feature that I think is completely flawed and broken is the witness and bounty system. It is god awful and hampers an otherwise mind blowing game

[AxlRoseCDII]

On 12/18/2018 at 9:02 AM, action said:

my problem with rockstar games is perfectly summed up, in this excellent vid:

 

I feel as if this is more opinion than fact. I actually enjoy the way Rockstar games are structured, more story based with set ideas and paths for how the game should be beaten. When trying to relax I find it all the more enjoyable to just sit back, enjoy the story and do what the game needs. Not saying I don’t enjoy free roam and coming up with our own paths to solve issues in games but I don’t think it’s neccesary to have a good time.

[Crazyman]

Finally finished Chapter 6 and the first epilogue. Unfortunately I spoiled both the chapter and epilogue endings before this point, but I don't care. The story in this game is so fucking good it reminds me of some of my favorite shows, particularly a slow-burner like Mad Men where most of the fine details are subtle. 

Subsequently playing a second playthrough where I try and do as much as humanly possible while also finishing the epilogue on the first playthrough

Edit: finished the first playthrough. I think I have to take a break before I return to the second lol

Edited December 24, 2018 by Crazyman

[downzy]

Not loving the controls at times.  Within 5 minutes I attempted to jump on my horse and instead throttled the person standing besides me.  Now I'm wanted for just attempting to ride my horse.  Real good!

[action]

3 hours ago, downzy said:

Not loving the controls at times.  Within 5 minutes I attempted to jump on my horse and instead throttled the person standing besides me.  Now I'm wanted for just attempting to ride my horse.  Real good!

they really went for a more realistic approach this time around

[Crazyman]

Nobody writes a storyline quite like Rockstar does. I think as I get older I'm almost as interested in that as I am the gameplay mechanics. RDR2 has some iffy controls and some broken features, but in my opinion it almost doesn't matter due to the rest of the game being so...perfect. 

[downzy]

2 hours ago, Crazyman said:

Nobody writes a storyline quite like Rockstar does. I think as I get older I'm almost as interested in that as I am the gameplay mechanics. RDR2 has some iffy controls and some broken features, but in my opinion it almost doesn't matter due to the rest of the game being so...perfect. 

I agree.  Though, it feels like it takes awhile for the story to get going.  Probably doesn't help that I get distracted by every single side mission.  

[Crazyman]

The soundtrack is amazing too:

 

 

[Eric Cantona]

Micah looks like Axl

[Crazyman]

On 12/30/2018 at 7:49 PM, Wagszilla said:

I was in this camp for awhile.

My experience with the game was one of mild gripes to general irritation to being openly critical.

But the characterization of Arthur is quite compelling and I like what they were going for.

It's a shame the actual story makes no sense. 

I'm on my second playthrough and I'm noticing some of the shit you need to do to get 100%, and after seeing you get it I can understand why. Then there's general control mechanics that makes my blood pump. 

Regarding the story - there's very few (fictional) video game/movie stories that makes sense. It comes with the territory that you have to suspend belief - it allows you to play a 100 hour game instead of a 2 hour game.

My favorite thing in game universes where you have to kill a ton of NPC's is that you can slaughter thousands and not get in trouble but if it's scripted the whole fucking universe will come after you. 

"Flawed masterpiece" is a great depiction of the game. Then again, what masterpieces are flawless? 

[Crazyman]

3 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

The controls have tons a problems. That video pointed out some. You’re constantly fighting them which breaks immersion.

The suspension of disbelief is an important point. When you remove a character (John’s daughter), make important things ambiguous (Blackwater, Dutch’s ability as a leader), don’t tell the story effectively

(big spoiler)

  Reveal hidden contents

Arthur’s illness (never tells the gang but they magically know about it. Doesn’t try to get help. Etc) and his inability to ask basic questions which after a point becomes ludicrious

It all starts to add up. I don’t feel immersed. I feel annoyed. Disconnected from the story and experience.

Halfway through the game I felt like the game had become a chore with a lot of story issues. I felt like I was playing 5 different games instead of 1 game.

It’s a very flawed flawed masterpiece.

It all comes down to argument but a lot of art and media is flawless and stands the test of time. RDR2 barely stands against the present.

I agree regarding Dutch because even at the beginning of the game he’s not even remotely charismatic, but I’m glad they keep what happened in Blackwater a mystery, and I feel John’s daughter isn’t a big deal. Arthur wasn’t there, so it makes sense he wouldn’t know the details about it and John only mentions his daughter once or twice, without even saying her name, in RDR. She was never really a part of the story in either game.

Regarding the spoiler:

Spoiler

My biggest annoyance is that Arthur’s condition deteriorates way too rapidly when you get to the last chapter. While TB didn’t have a cure back then, it also took much longer to actually kill you than what’s depicted. Arthur does share his condition with some of the members he’s close with, but I think the mission where you kick Strauss out of the gang and he accuses you of acting delirious in front of everyone was the sign that everyone already knew.

I do agree with the multiple storylines thing. Chapter 5 is a waste of a chapter and just seems like they wanted to show off a new location. They really should’ve cut that chapter and made the first one longer.

Totally disagree that it’s not holding up presently. Online may suck (I haven’t played), the controls do suck, and there may be some minor plotholes, but immersion is not something that I’ve had a problem with at all. My opinion remains the same: it's a flawed masterpiece, quite simply, and the best game I've played in some time. 

[action]

On ‎03‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 7:06 AM, Crazyman said:

 Then again, what masterpieces are flawless? 

Plenty. The ones that are sometimes more than 20 years old and are still loved, played and discussed to this very day.

a couple of flawless masterpieces:

- mortal kombat II, perfect dark, ocarina of time, super mario kart, street fighter II, resident evil 4, metroid prime, super castlevania IV, rogue squadron, earthbound, final fantasy VII, metal gear solid 3

They don't have any problems that come even near to the game-breaking control and gameplay issues RDR2 has. RDR2 is a heavily flawed masterpiece, that is saved by its storyline and immersion in a realistic world. But gameplay wise, it's bottom of the barrel quality and doesn't offer anything that I can't get elsewhere but better. This was a conscious decision by the developers, who chose a realistic experience over fun gameplay.

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by action

[Crazyman]

10 hours ago, action said:

Plenty. The ones that are sometimes more than 20 years old and are still loved, played and discussed to this very day.

a couple of flawless masterpieces:

- mortal kombat II, perfect dark, ocarina of time, super mario kart, street fighter II, resident evil 4, metroid prime, super castlevania IV, rogue squadron, earthbound, final fantasy VII, metal gear solid 3

They don't have any problems that come even near to the game-breaking control and gameplay issues RDR2 has. RDR2 is a heavily flawed masterpiece, that is saved by its storyline and immersion in a realistic world. But gameplay wise, it's bottom of the barrel quality and doesn't offer anything that I can't get elsewhere but better. This was a conscious decision by the developers, who chose a realistic experience over fun gameplay.

 

But isn't that due more towards nostalgia and the (now relative) simplicity of those games? I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I consider RDR2 to be simply a flawed masterpiece. I can get over the controls, similarly like I have with the most recent GTA games, because everything else is that good. 

Also I'm pretty sure the main criticism facing this game, other than the controls, is style over substance? Is that not the same criticism for every major release in this generation of consoles? This is simply the way the gaming culture is going because the business behind it is so good, hence why you see a plethora of DLC's, in-game purchases, etc. 

Perhaps it's like I said earlier in this thread: I'm now more into the richness of the story and the open world atmosphere to keep me engaged rather than the specifics over the controls or any of the smaller criticisms. I suppose that's part of becoming an old man 

To each their own, obviously, and I respect the points you and Wags are making.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Crazyman

[action]

47 minutes ago, Crazyman said:

But isn't that due more towards nostalgia and the (now relative) simplicity of those games? I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I consider RDR2 to be simply a flawed masterpiece. I can get over the controls, similarly like I have with the most recent GTA games, because everything else is that good. 

Also I'm pretty sure the main criticism facing this game, other than the controls, is style over substance? Is that not the same criticism for every major release in this generation of consoles? This is simply the way the gaming culture is going because the business behind it is so good, hence why you see a plethora of DLC's, in-game purchases, etc. 

Perhaps it's like I said earlier in this thread: I'm now more into the richness of the story and the open world atmosphere to keep me engaged rather than the specifics over the controls or any of the smaller criticisms. I suppose that's part of becoming an old man 

To each their own, obviously, and I respect the points you and Wags are making.

fair enough. if you like story and atmosphere, then indeed RDR2 is a little gem.

speaking of the gaming business. you'll want to keep an eye on 2019 as the next big AAA gaming crash is predicted, and is actually in progress. look up share values of companies like EA, blizzard, activision and you'll see a shocking drop in value over the last couple of months. big flops like battlefield V, the new call of duty and the likes are making investors restless. games are getting more expensive to produce and profit expectations just can't be met. on top of that, people are rushing out to buy stuff like mini retro consoles and indie games (especially keep an eye on the indie scene; it's booming spectacularly) and the big AAA companies will likely disapear or will need to heavily change their business model. in-game transactions, lootcrates, always online.... people are slowly but surely getting enough of all of it and are longing back to simpler days when gaming was more fun.

the games I mentioned aren't great, because of nostalgia, but because they are just brilliant games. there is not a single game on my list, that I don't play from time to time. some of these I play almost daily. Not because of nostalgia, but because they are great fun. there hasn't been a great arcade racer in ages apart from mario kart and so I have no choice but to go back to retro games. A challenging singleplayer first person shooter? few and far between these days. Modern AAA gaming, just doesn't cut it anymore for most people. Profits will not match production cost, as a matter of fact they don't match at all if we're taking stock value as a measure. Looking forward to 2019 and it's slew of great indie games that are coming: blazing chrome, ion maiden, prodeus, ritual of the night, DUSK.... the amount of great exciting indie games coming, is spectacular. AAA gaming is dying, and indie gaming will replace it

Edited January 4, 2019 by action

[Crazyman]

I think we might have to agree to disagree a bit. I'm not shocked those games flopped - eventually consumers are going to get bored of the same carbon-copy bullshit with better graphics. My counter-point to the share price thing would be that there's been a large drop in the overall market in general; Take-Two (which owns Rockstar) just released the game we're talking about which is continuing to lead sales and the stock price has fallen off a cliff since September, akin to the rest of the market. That being said, I have noticed the retro/indie gaming boom and agree it's a blowback from what's going on in the industry as a whole. 

I've played (and loved) most of the games you listed, but I'm in no rush to get my n64 or ps/ps2, etc. out to play them, other than when nostalgia hits once a year or so. They're fun games because they were simple and the learning-curve for the controls were much simpler compared to today. I'd still play a game like Morrowind way more than I'd play Skyrim, for example, but I'm almost certain it's because I was 11 when the first game came out and in my early 20's when the second did. 

I'm sure AAA gaming will crash, just like it did in the early 80's, but wouldn't be surprised to see it come back as well. I really hope it does so that they do some soul searching and get back to what made games great years ago so that I can test my theory. 

[downzy]

On 2019-01-04 at 4:37 PM, action said:

fair enough. if you like story and atmosphere, then indeed RDR2 is a little gem.

speaking of the gaming business. you'll want to keep an eye on 2019 as the next big AAA gaming crash is predicted, and is actually in progress. look up share values of companies like EA, blizzard, activision and you'll see a shocking drop in value over the last couple of months. big flops like battlefield V, the new call of duty and the likes are making investors restless. games are getting more expensive to produce and profit expectations just can't be met. on top of that, people are rushing out to buy stuff like mini retro consoles and indie games (especially keep an eye on the indie scene; it's booming spectacularly) and the big AAA companies will likely disapear or will need to heavily change their business model. in-game transactions, lootcrates, always online.... people are slowly but surely getting enough of all of it and are longing back to simpler days when gaming was more fun.

the games I mentioned aren't great, because of nostalgia, but because they are just brilliant games. there is not a single game on my list, that I don't play from time to time. some of these I play almost daily. Not because of nostalgia, but because they are great fun. there hasn't been a great arcade racer in ages apart from mario kart and so I have no choice but to go back to retro games. A challenging singleplayer first person shooter? few and far between these days. Modern AAA gaming, just doesn't cut it anymore for most people. Profits will not match production cost, as a matter of fact they don't match at all if we're taking stock value as a measure. Looking forward to 2019 and it's slew of great indie games that are coming: blazing chrome, ion maiden, prodeus, ritual of the night, DUSK.... the amount of great exciting indie games coming, is spectacular. AAA gaming is dying, and indie gaming will replace it

COD was a flop?  Thought it and RDR2 we’re crushing it since release. I read somewhere that COD:BO4 is the fastest selling game on PS4 and XBONE. 

[ZoSoRose]

15 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

I really do hate what AAA gaming has become. But there's a few standouts I look forward to like anything by Nintendo, Cyberpunk 2077, The Outer Worlds and Halo Infinite; although I'm very cautiously optimistic because 343i are fucking useless. They made mistakes in Halo CE Anniversary, completely shit the bed with Halo 4 & 5 and Halo MCC was a colossal failure and is only now - 4 years later - beginning to be fixed and get to an acceptable standard.

Love Halo 4 but 5 was a huge mess. I feel the way about it that people who hate The Last Jedi feel about that. I am very apprehensive for Infinite 

AAA gaming has been a mess for me this cycle. So many dissapointments... Halo 5, Mass Effect Andromeda, Watch Dogs, Destiny, etc. Red Dead 2 and Witcher 3 have been the only true "next gen" experiences for me. Wish I bought a PS4. 

[action]

4 hours ago, downzy said:

COD was a flop?  Thought it and RDR2 we’re crushing it since release. I read somewhere that COD:BO4 is the fastest selling game on PS4 and XBONE. 

the fan reaction to black ops 4 has been overwhelmingly negative. 

then there is the curious shift from AAA gaming to mobile

or the successor to alien isolation

again, fan reaction is overwhelmingly negative. Also, you see the further corruption of AAA gaming in the shift to mobile. No more console ports or PC versions. Much more money to be made in a mobile environment.

even nintendo is hinting to a mobile future. 

 

[downzy]

1 hour ago, action said:

the fan reaction to black ops 4 has been overwhelmingly negative. 

then there is the curious shift from AAA gaming to mobile

or the successor to alien isolation

again, fan reaction is overwhelmingly negative. Also, you see the further corruption of AAA gaming in the shift to mobile. No more console ports or PC versions. Much more money to be made in a mobile environment.

even nintendo is hinting to a mobile future. 

 

I think mobile is viewed as an area of growth, where console games have plateaued, particularly for this generation.  But I would hardly call it a trend whereby we can say with any certainty that the time for AAA gaming on conoles/PC or in general is done.  People want to play certain games on their big screens at home.  It's the same reason why people still go to movie theatres to see Star Wars or Marvel movies.  I do think the mid to long-term future is probably with mobile, but in the sense that your mobile device will serve as console/PC conduit to home gaming (i.e. it becomes the streaming device that feeds your home television; gaming processes are done offsite in the cloud).  But I think we're still 5-10 years before both infrastructure and technology allows for that kind of portal into home gaming.  Until then I think the nature of gaming will stay confined into the traditional mobile versus home gaming content.  Regardless, AAA games won't be going anywhere.  

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with those two videos.  Seems like releasing a smartphone specific Diablo wasn't well received, and Blizzard was forced to recover soon after (correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they still in the process of making Diablo 4?).  The first Alien Isolation was a complete bust on home consoles and perhaps pursuing a sequel on PC/consoles wasn't the best play considering they're likely not going to commit the same amount of resources to the sequel.

EA has been making the same game with Madden for decades and it still sells millions of copies every year.  Perhaps fan sentiment wasn't great for COD (though I'll have to take your word for it; nearly every person I know who owns it loves it and hasn't put it down; almost every person on my Xbox Live friends list is playing it any time I log in to play RDR2), but it still sold (and continues to sell) a ton of copies and is a huge moneymaker for Activision.  

I do think there's a place for mobile gaming as it generally requires less development costs and revenue potential can be huge.  But I just don't see developers and publishers abandoning console gaming due to backlash.  True, there's only one GTA 5, but it made Take-Two and Rockstar billions of dollars.  Many AAA games, if successful, make insane money.  I don't see that changing any time soon.  Plus, 2019 doesn't seem like it's going to be a bad year for AAA gaming.  Crackdown 3, Devil May Cry 5, Kingdom Hearts 3, Resident Evil 2, Anthem, Metro: Exodus, The Division 2, Days Gone, Rage 2, Doom Eternal, Gears 5, MK11, Jedi: Fallen Order.  I don't see publishers slowing down on the PC/console front.  

[downzy]

Almost through Chapter 4, with I believe two more chapters to go.

Similar to what has already been said, the game is both breathtaking with respect to how great and frustrating it can be.  Visually, I don't believe I've seen a prettier game (save for maybe the characters).  I'm fortunate to play on the Xbox One X on a 4K LG OLED television and even after putting in 30-40 hours I'm still blown away by how authentic and realistic the open frontier looks.  The storytelling is also superb, though the first chapter or two are a bit slow and could have used some abbreviation and consolidation.  I've also enjoyed the relationships and attachments one makes throughout the game, an element that wasn't much present in most GTA games and helps differentiate RDR in its own right.  Whereas in GTA your modes of transportation are largely disposable, the attachment one has with one's horse is a nice dynamic.  In some ways it feels like you're not going through the game alone and have a partner when wondering through the wilderness.  I never got the whole pokemon or virtual pet craze, but I've enjoyed looking after my horse and have come to feel quite protective and attached to one or two of them.

But then there are the hair-losing controls.  Particularly around or on the horse, the controls are extremely wonky and have worked against my enjoyment of the game.  If the visuals immerse the player in the game, the controls do almost as good a job of doing the opposite.  While I am certainly not the best video game player out there, I don't consider myself the worst having played games for almost 35 years.  But it says something that with over 30 - 35 hours into the game I still stumble with basic character controls.  The decision to require players to access the weapon/inventory wheel to change weapons is nonsense.  I can't tell you how many times I've strangled some unsuspecting dude simply because he happened to be standing by my horse as I attempt to get on.  The dead-eye system never becomes intuitive and I'm still not 100 percent how to operate it properly.  Then there's the mess of accessing items found around your room or in cabins.  I've had to attempt numerous walk ups to desks, cabinets, shelves in attempts to take the right item.  

In many ways RDR2 is to the Red Dead series as Grand Theft Auto 4 is the GTA series.  Both upped the visual and atmospheric standards of the series in ways that were revolutionary and unseen before in the industry.  But both sacrificed elements of fun for a greater sense of realism that I think hurts the overall presentation.  The designers would have better served its audience/customer base had they included a realism slider (or different modes) to allow for players the choice in how much realism they want in the game.  Because too often I find the game gets in the way of itself for the sake of realism.  The entire warrant system feels far too cumbersome.  Too often I'll be attacked by a rival gang after coming back from a mission where I'll defend (i.e. kill everyone) against said attackers only to have some "witness" show up and attempt to report me for murder.  Which usually involves me killing the witness, and then another witness, and sometimes a third or fourth witness.  In one instance I had to kill six witnesses in addition to the 4 attackers in order to avoid being wanted and paying a heft bounty so I'm not continually harassed as I roam through that territory.  The map is so huge that it can take 5-10 minutes to get from a mission location back to the camp that it becomes cumbersome when having to fight off attackers and then mow down potential witnesses.  The moments I actually enjoy these distractions are rare, too often I just want to continue the story.  

All in all it's great game and I hope Rockstar has a follow up planned (maybe something set in a different location with different characters that aren't attached to the storyline of the this and the last game).  But going forward, let's dial back the realism (or at least, give players the option) and not let the game get in the way of the story.  And oh, perhaps do something about the insanely clunky controls while they're at it.  I'm looking forward to finishing it to see how the story wraps up and might give RDR online a chance.  If anything, I'll likely go back to complete the animal and fishing challenges.  I obtained 100 percent in RDR1 but it seems unlikely I'll achieve the same level of completion in this one.