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5 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

@killuridols Nope, never seen that either. Nice find :thumbsup:

hehe, casual find :P

But this is the saddest part, isn't it?

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I also found out it is supposedly some kind of mental thing having to do with me punishing myself for expressing myself. For 20 years of my life I was beaten by my parents for expressing myself, so part of me believes I should be punished for that expression. I do this by lowering my own resistance. Turn that around, and there you have it - self punishment

When he says he found out, I guess it has to do with what those loonies he was seeing at the time told him in the regression therapy or whatever.

Not sure what to believe... of course, if he says his parents were repressing him, must be true but the other thing, his body reacting to it and the self punishment... maybe, maybe not :unsure:

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At Rumbo, Steven would nod out to the point where he would be on a stool, but his head would be touching the floor. He'd say, 'I'm tired. I'm sleepy,' and he couldn't play. That was basically it. We gave him so many chances to turn around. We took him to Indiana, to play Farm Aid, and he jumps on the drum riser and almost breaks his f?!king neck.

LMAO:rofl-lol:

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8 minutes ago, killuridols said:

hehe, casual find :P

But this is the saddest part, isn't it?

When he says he found out, I guess it has to do with what those loonies he was seeing at the time told him in the regression therapy or whatever.

Not sure what to believe... of course, if he says his parents were repressing him, must be true but the other thing, his body reacting to it and the self punishment... maybe, maybe not :unsure:

Nah, I don't believe that bit either. Maybe something Axl was told medically, he's had lots of these bouts of tonsillitis. If he went to the dr for antibiotics enough they're bound to have investigated why he kept getting it. 

He perhaps told the loony therapist and they came up with that :facepalm: 

I don't get why he believes stuff like that shit, I really don't. For someone with his supposed intelligence he is extremely gullible. 

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His suppression of self-expression couldn't inflame his tonsils, but depressive and anxiety disorders could chronically affect your immune system in a very dramatic way.

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2 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Its fucked up to pick on Duffs daughters. If they don't like the music, just don't listen. I don't care if they come from a privileged background or whatever. Bullying is bullying!! 

I agree. What the fuck is wrong with people? There's so much harassment and bullying online, and they're going after a teenage girl with death threats?!

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at how low people can go...a while back there was a 5 year old Disney actress who was getting some pretty vile death threats online, and I've heard of women having major issues in life because they've been harassed so heavily online. The Internet apparently brings out every monster there is.

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18 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Nah, I don't believe that bit either. Maybe something Axl was told medically, he's had lots of these bouts of tonsillitis. If he went to the dr for antibiotics enough they're bound to have investigated why he kept getting it. 

He perhaps told the loony therapist and they came up with that :facepalm: 

I don't get why he believes stuff like that shit, I really don't. For someone with his supposed intelligence he is extremely gullible. 

Intelligent but emotionally vulnerable...and doctors are notoriously bad at picking up chronic illness.

There's that whole school of thought that thinking positive influences your health, that you can "think" or pray your way to health and that if you're sick, you've brought it on yourself with negative thoughts and actions...it's complete bullshit and unfortunately it's very harmful bullshit because people listen to it.

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@killuridols I've actually read that entire article before, but it sheds even more light on why he was so miserable during the UYI tour. From this and other things I've read you get the impression he was constantly sick. Add to that all his emotional/psychological issues and yeah, not fun at all.

From personal experience I'd say he should get his tonsils removed. I used to constantly get all these shitty illnesses as well, but then I had my tonsils removed and I haven't had anything like that in over 15 years. I never even need tissues or anything like that (except when I have a cold, which happens maybe once a year). I know this procedure is much more unpleasant for adults than children and some doctors disagree with it nowadays I think, but it worked miracles for me and a few other people I know. Worth considering at least, I guess.

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

But this is the saddest part, isn't it?

When he says he found out, I guess it has to do with what those loonies he was seeing at the time told him in the regression therapy or whatever.

Not sure what to believe... of course, if he says his parents were repressing him, must be true but the other thing, his body reacting to it and the self punishment... maybe, maybe not :unsure:

Yeah, it definitely sounds like something these people would have told him. But on the other hand this kind of thing is not completely baseless at least. Psychosomatic illnesses are quite real after all. The way he presents it seems far-fetched though. No one there to punish him anymore so he punishes himself by getting all these diseases? Meh. Maybe his mental issues contribute a little and made/make his immune system weaker in general, but I'd say it's mostly the recycled air in planes and hotels that's to blame, plus contact with tons of different people and weak tonsils prone to diseases.

Also I really hope he was speaking hyperbolically/exaggerating when he said his parents beat him for 20 years. :scared::scared:

Obviously beating children is horrible and wrong, but I find the thought of him still getting beaten as a teenger or young adult very disturbing as well. Disturbing in a different way maybe.

In my experience even parents who use physcial discipline with their children usually stop that shit when their children are around 12-14 years old. The thought of a parent discipling/beating a 16 year old or an 18 year old or whatever is really frightening to me.

52 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I don't get why he believes stuff like that shit, I really don't. For someone with his supposed intelligence he is extremely gullible. 

I've said that before and was attacked by some people for it. Axl's done and said a lot of things that make him come across as either really, really gullible or really, really desperate/scared. I don't know which one I'd prefer, but it makes me doubt his often cited intelligence as well. At least in that regard. Vulnerable and desperate or not, but just a minimum amount of common sense really would have gone a long way. The only way I can kind of make sense of it is if I consider his fear of actual psychiatrists/hospitals that we recently discussed in combination with the time that most of this craziness happened in. I figure it was a lot harder in the early 90s than it is now to ascertain if something was bullshit or not. Plus, he had no familial support system or anything. One thing that often strikes me when I read stuff about Duff (or even Slash or Izzy) are the instances where their family members stepped in and took them aside when they saw things heading in the wrong direction or thought something was shady. Axl didn't have anything like that, but a lot of sycophants and predators around him instead :wacko:

Edited by Lumikki
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25 minutes ago, Lumikki said:

@killuridols I've actually read that entire article before, but it sheds even more light on why he was so miserable during the UYI tour. From this and other things I've read you get the impression he was constantly sick. Add to that all his emotional/psychological issues and yeah, not fun at all.

From personal experience I'd say he should get his tonsils removed. I used to constantly get all these shitty illnesses as well, but then I had my tonsils removed and I haven't had anything like that in over 15 years. I never even need tissues or anything like that (except when I have a cold, which happens maybe once a year). I know this procedure is much more unpleasant for adults than children and some doctors disagree with it nowadays I think, but it worked miracles for me and a few other people I know. Worth considering at least, I guess.

Yeah, it definitely sounds like something these people would have told him. But on the other hand this kind of thing is not completely baseless at least. Psychosomatic illnesses are quite real after all. The way he presents it seems far-fetched though. No one there to punish him anymore so he punishes himself by getting all these diseases? Meh. Maybe his mental issues contribute a little and made/make his immune system weaker in general, but I'd say it's mostly the recycled air in planes and hotels that's to blame, plus contact with tons of different people and weak tonsils prone to diseases.

Also I really hope he was speaking hyperbolically/exaggerating when he said his parents beat him for 20 years. :scared::scared:

Obviously beating children is horrible and wrong, but I find the thought of him still getting beaten as a teenger or young adult very disturbing as well. Disturbing in a different way maybe.

In my experience even parents who use physcial discipline with their children usually stop that shit when their children are around 12-14 years old. The thought of a parent discipling/beating a 16 year old or an 18 year old or whatever is really frightening to me.

I've said that before and was attacked by some people for it. Axl's done and said a lot of things that make him come across as either really, really gullible or really, really desperate/scared. I don't know which one I'd prefer, but it makes me doubt his often cited intelligence as well. At least in that regard. Vulnerable and desperate or not, but just a minimum amount of common sense really would have gone a long way. The only way I can kind of make sense of it is if I consider his fear of actual psychiatrists/hospitals that we recently discussed in combination with the time that most of this craziness happened in. I figure it was a lot harder in the early 90s than it is now to ascertain if something was bullshit or not. Plus, he had no familial support system or anything. One thing that often strikes me when I read stuff about Duff (or even Slash or Izzy) are the instances where their family members stepped in and took them aside when they saw things heading in the wrong direction or thought something was shady. Axl didn't have anything like that, but a lot of sycophants and predators around him instead :wacko:

I think that there are a lot of different types of intelligence - someone who is intellectually gifted, for instance, might not be socially intelligent. There are all those super-smart people who seem to have absolutely no social or emotional intelligence whatsoever (read some of the accounts of Mensa gatherings sometimes, for instance...they actually had to develop a "dot system" because there were so many people at their annual gatherings who were invading others' personal space and hugging others without their consent. You'd think someone who was smart enough to be in Mensa would be smart enough to know that you don't just go up to a stranger and put your hands on them, but that wasn't the case.

And it has also been said that a lot of people who fall into cults are very intelligent. Again, you'd think they'd be able to question what they're being told and come to a conclusion that it's harmful, but no. Like that Heaven's Gate cult who were all computer genuises, and committed suicide because they thought they were going to hitch a ride on a comet.

So I think that being intelligent doesn't always equate with being smart, savvy or able to parse the bullshit from the truth.

I think with Axl, one of the issues is that he was raised in a system where he was not allowed to question things. He had to accept what he was told as fact - stuff that was not readily verifiable - and it was hammered into his head in a very authoritative way. He was beaten and punished for speaking his mind or disagreeing, and he was thrown out of his house for it. I think on some level that sticks with someone, even if they do the work later on. And that was a very sheltered life as well, probably - if you've ever met a kid from a very religious household, they don't have a lot of street savvy.

And I think another issue is that he's been very emotionally vulnerable, and really wants to fix what he feels is wrong, and he's searching desperately for solutions, and that leads to trouble and getting taken in a lot of the time. Add that to a fear or aversion to doctors, and yeah, the quacks were just waiting for him.

With the tonsils, yeah, it sounds like they might need to go. I also had issues with my tonsils, and when they were gone, I felt so much better. I've heard it's one of those surgeries where unfortunately the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other - back in the day they used to grab kids' tonsils at the slightest provocation, and now they're so conservative about it that they wait too long and refuse to operate even when people really do need tonsillectomies.

Edited by stella
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31 minutes ago, Lumikki said:

but it makes me doubt his often cited intelligence as well

Do people ever explain what made his intelligence obvious to them? Or is it just generalized?

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1 hour ago, tiutso said:

His suppression of self-expression couldn't inflame his tonsils, but depressive and anxiety disorders could chronically affect your immune system in a very dramatic way.

Yes, that's true :unsure: <---

1 hour ago, Lumikki said:

@killuridols I've actually read that entire article before, but it sheds even more light on why he was so miserable during the UYI tour. From this and other things I've read you get the impression he was constantly sick. Add to that all his emotional/psychological issues and yeah, not fun at all.

From personal experience I'd say he should get his tonsils removed. I used to constantly get all these shitty illnesses as well, but then I had my tonsils removed and I haven't had anything like that in over 15 years. I never even need tissues or anything like that (except when I have a cold, which happens maybe once a year). I know this procedure is much more unpleasant for adults than children and some doctors disagree with it nowadays I think, but it worked miracles for me and a few other people I know. Worth considering at least, I guess.

Yeah, it definitely sounds like something these people would have told him. But on the other hand this kind of thing is not completely baseless at least. Psychosomatic illnesses are quite real after all. The way he presents it seems far-fetched though. No one there to punish him anymore so he punishes himself by getting all these diseases? Meh. Maybe his mental issues contribute a little and made/make his immune system weaker in general, but I'd say it's mostly the recycled air in planes and hotels that's to blame, plus contact with tons of different people and weak tonsils prone to diseases.

Also I really hope he was speaking hyperbolically/exaggerating when he said his parents beat him for 20 years. :scared::scared:

Obviously beating children is horrible and wrong, but I find the thought of him still getting beaten as a teenger or young adult very disturbing as well. Disturbing in a different way maybe.

In my experience even parents who use physcial discipline with their children usually stop that shit when their children are around 12-14 years old. The thought of a parent discipling/beating a 16 year old or an 18 year old or whatever is really frightening to me.

I think that surgery is pretty common among children but this is from 1992 so we don't know if he had them removed. Maybe he didn't want to have them removed for fear of it affecting his voice. He's a professional singer, he can't afford to fuck up his throat. Again, we know nothing about it since then.

Yeah, I think psychosomatic illnesses do exist but they are not entirely a result of stress. It's like what @tiutso said before... you are depressed and you become more vulnerable to diseases, probably because when you are depressed you dont take care of yourself. It happens to me a lot, you know how I'm oftenly :unsure: and because of that sometimes I go out and catch the flu because I'm wearing a tshirt on winter and I dont realize it is cold outside, I'm supposed to wear sweaters and boots but I don't do it because I don't care, because I live in cloud 9 or am too much into my own world.

You mentioned "contact with tons of different people" and that reminded me of him getting laid with all these women who are not Erin <_<... So yeah, being promiscous gives you tons of diseases, so deal with it Axl, blame it on the parents but he won't blame his own lack of care in the sexual aspect.

Hmm I know parents who have chastised their kids until kids were teenagers so it is not so crazy what he is saying but at the same time, I find it hard to believe because he was already rebellious and I know any kid would rebel against his father or mother if they tried to beat them up. Some kids have murdered their own parents in self-defense, so I dont know. Maybe he was talking in a figurative sense? like the parents not supporting him with what he wanted to express?

 

42 minutes ago, stella said:

I think that there are a lot of different types of intelligence - someone who is intellectually gifted, for instance, might not be socially intelligent. There are all those super-smart people who seem to have absolutely no social or emotional intelligence whatsoever (read some of the accounts of Mensa gatherings sometimes, for instance...they actually had to develop a "dot system" because there were so many people at their annual gatherings who were invading others' personal space and hugging others without their consent. You'd think someone who was smart enough to be in Mensa would be smart enough to know that you don't just go up to a stranger and put your hands on them, but that wasn't the case.

And it has also been said that a lot of people who fall into cults are very intelligent. Again, you'd think they'd be able to question what they're being told and come to a conclusion that it's harmful, but no. Like that Heaven's Gate cult who were all computer genuises, and committed suicide because they thought they were going to hitch a ride on a comet.

So I think that being intelligent doesn't always equate with being smart, savvy or able to parse the bullshit from the truth.

I think with Axl, one of the issues is that he was raised in a system where he was not allowed to question things. He had to accept what he was told as fact - stuff that was not readily verifiable - and it was hammered into his head in a very authoritative way. He was beaten and punished for speaking his mind or disagreeing, and he was thrown out of his house for it. I think on some level that sticks with someone, even if they do the work later on. And that was a very sheltered life as well, probably - if you've ever met a kid from a very religious household, they don't have a lot of street savvy.

And I think another issue is that he's been very emotionally vulnerable, and really wants to fix what he feels is wrong, and he's searching desperately for solutions, and that leads to trouble and getting taken in a lot of the time. Add that to a fear or aversion to doctors, and yeah, the quacks were just waiting for him.

This is true. I am one of those types who excelled at school but a disaster with social skills :unsure:

There's something else about Axl that I'm not sure if you guys are taking into consideration. He is described as extremely intelligent and talented for music, his singing, songwriting, etc. but the guy didn't receive a lot of education. He dropped high school, so even when you're super intelligent and smart, if you don't study, if you don't read, your potential just goes wasted.

It's not like you are born with a high IQ and you don't need to study because of that. You're not born a genius knowing it all. Like with everything, you need to put some effort. And I think lack of formal education plays a big part in people not being able to distinguish right from wrong and believing the kind of things Axl believes in.

I always thought Axl would be skeptical kind but if he didn't question authority then he's not there. When you're skeptical (i am extremely skeptical) you don't believe in what people tell you until you can collect a bunch of clues or information that you find satisfactory enough to believe in something.

Sounds like any looney could tell him something was the way it was and he would believe it, taking the word of that person as sacred word. Like the time he wanted that guy who "could move the planets" or I dont know what BS that guy was supposed to do :facepalm: and he was fascinated with it...

 

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1 hour ago, Lumikki said:

I've said that before and was attacked by some people for it. Axl's done and said a lot of things that make him come across as either really, really gullible or really, really desperate/scared. I don't know which one I'd prefer, but it makes me doubt his often cited intelligence as well. At least in that regard. Vulnerable and desperate or not, but just a minimum amount of common sense really would have gone a long way. The only way I can kind of make sense of it is if I consider his fear of actual psychiatrists/hospitals that we recently discussed in combination with the time that most of this craziness happened it. I figure it was a lot harder in the early 90s than it is now to ascertain if something was bullshit or not. Plus, he had no familal support system or anything. One thing that often strikes me when I read stuff about Duff (or even Slash or Izzy) are the instances where their family members stepped in and took them aside when they saw things heading in the wrong direction or thought something was shady. Axl didn't have anything like that, but a lot of sycophants and predators around him instead :wacko:

 

58 minutes ago, tiutso said:

Do people ever explain what made his intelligence obvious to them? Or is it just generalized?

Slash in his book has described Axl as super-intellingent. From the context I think that by intelligence he meant charisma, creativity, ability to learn fast and to have an intelligent conversation.

As @stella said, these qualities don't necessarily mean that the person is smart.

This is from an article that contains excerpts from a book on Shannon Hoon:

Shelley Shaw: I got a job working for the head of worldwide music at I.C.M. [International Creative Management]. I knew a lot of acts; I’d traveled, and got to meet the managers. I’d been to L.A. a lot and I had a core of friends there-somehow I met Guns N’ Roses.
Over the years-from ‘87 to ‘91-Axl and I became really good friends. It’s really hectic for people to go through that kind of growth through the public eye and be famous...and be 25. Axl had a ‘seen it all/done it all’ reputation- but on a lot of levels, he was really naive. So there was a lot to go through-I was the same way, so we got along really good. We were really close. I remember he said a friend of his in high school had rung him up- her little brother was going to L.A. to try and make it in music, and would he keep an eye out. That was Anna, Shannon’s sister.

Even Axl himself has said that in some occasions he had been naive (for example when he wrote One In A Million) and he understood it later.

Shelley Shaw must have been the friend who watched over Axl when he was living in the studio and feeling suicidal:

Shelley Shaw: In 1990, it was the holidays-I think that’s when [Axl] had been through a really quick divorce with Erin. He was sad and living at the studio-he was in a really bad way. I remember Shannon looked after him and stayed there with him. But he was like, “I’ve got to go home to Indiana to see my family on Christmas Eve.” Somehow, he got a hold of me-I still hadn’t talked to [Shannon]-"I’ve got to go, and I heard you might come in. This is what’s going on.”
I kind of took over, and then when I left, he came back. We were like ‘ships in the night’-it was really weird. When I got there, [Axl] was sleeping a lot and going out to eat-there was no recording going on. He was just living there and he had a lot to say. It was more like Axl always needed somebody- he loved to sit and friggin’ filibuster. They were doing the sessions for ‘Use Your Illusion,’ and I remember Axl was like, “My voice just isn’t there for these high bits-I’ve got to get somebody in there to help.” So he brought in Shannon to see if he could do some things.

 

 

Edited by Blackstar
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18 minutes ago, killuridols said:

There's something else about Axl that I'm not sure if you guys are taking into consideration. He is described as extremely intelligent and talented for music, his singing, songwriting, etc. but the guy didn't receive a lot of education. He dropped high school, so even when you're super intelligent and smart, if you don't study, if you don't read, your potential just goes wasted.

It's not like you are born with a high IQ and you don't need to study because of that. You're not born a genius knowing it all. Like with everything, you need to put some effort. And I think lack of formal education plays a big part in people not being able to distinguish right from wrong and believing the kind of things Axl believes in.

I always thought Axl would be skeptical kind but if he didn't question authority then he's not there. When you're skeptical (i am extremely skeptical) you don't believe in what people tell you until you can collect a bunch of clues or information that you find satisfactory enough to believe in something.

Sounds like any looney could tell him something was the way it was and he would believe it, taking the word of that person as sacred word. Like the time he wanted that guy who "could move the planets" or I dont know what BS that guy was supposed to do :facepalm: and he was fascinated with it...

What you said kinda reminded me of an Izzy quote: "And this guy, he’s not a Harvard graduate, Axl. He’s just a guy, just a little guy, who sings, is talented."

Yes, education is a factor, but not a major one imo. Slash and Duff were high-school dropouts as well, but they didn't believe in such things. In Axl's case, it was more the social environment he was brought up in and that believing this kind of stuff was a refuge for him, given his problems.

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5 hours ago, starlight said:

Axl was an asshole for cheating on Erin,she really loved him :facepalm:

I think though Axl was always pretty up front with the ladies that he was not going to be faithful.  I don't know if he held that double standard with them in return, and if he did, that sucks.  But truthfully, that's what you get when you date a rock star 91/2 times out of ten.

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11 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

What you said kinda reminded me of an Izzy quote: "And this guy, he’s not a Harvard graduate, Axl. He’s just a guy, just a little guy, who sings, is talented."

Yes, education is a factor, but not a major one imo. Slash and Duff were high-school dropouts as well, but they didn't believe in such things. In Axl's case, it was more the social environment he was brought up in and that believing this kind of stuff was a refuge for him, given his problems.

No, I'm not saying it is a major factor but one to be considered from the big pool of factors that may have led him to believe the loonies.

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4 hours ago, Lumikki said:


 To get off the subject, you look really nice today, you get prettier & prettier every day.

 the girls are pretty (I still think you cuter than any of the girls there) 

This all letter is gold!! 14 years old, omg, what a nice kid he was :wub:

These parts hit me. How cuteeee, really I'm dying, my heart can't take it :hug:

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Just now, dgnr said:

This all letter is gold!! 14 years old, omg, what a nice kid he was :wub:

Wasn't that the same age when he and his girlfriend drugged her mother to fuck in peace? :rofl-lol:

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Just now, tiutso said:

Wasn't that the same age when he and his girlfriend drugged her mother to fuck in peace? :rofl-lol:

Yeah probably... Dude lost his virginity at 10, I will say again 10!!! , at 10 I was playing with my barbies, he was precocious for sure :facepalm: Anyways, the heart was pure haha

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9 hours ago, killuridols said:

I think that surgery is pretty common among children but this is from 1992 so we don't know if he had them removed. Maybe he didn't want to have them removed for fear of it affecting his voice. He's a professional singer, he can't afford to fuck up his throat. Again, we know nothing about it since then.

Yeah, I think psychosomatic illnesses do exist but they are not entirely a result of stress. It's like what @tiutso said before... you are depressed and you become more vulnerable to diseases, probably because when you are depressed you dont take care of yourself. It happens to me a lot, you know how I'm oftenly :unsure: and because of that sometimes I go out and catch the flu because I'm wearing a tshirt on winter and I dont realize it is cold outside, I'm supposed to wear sweaters and boots but I don't do it because I don't care, because I live in cloud 9 or am too much into my own world.

You mentioned "contact with tons of different people" and that reminded me of him getting laid with all these women who are not Erin <_<... So yeah, being promiscous gives you tons of diseases, so deal with it Axl, blame it on the parents but he won't blame his own lack of care in the sexual aspect.

Hmm I know parents who have chastised their kids until kids were teenagers so it is not so crazy what he is saying but at the same time, I find it hard to believe because he was already rebellious and I know any kid would rebel against his father or mother if they tried to beat them up. Some kids have murdered their own parents in self-defense, so I dont know. Maybe he was talking in a figurative sense? like the parents not supporting him with what he wanted to express.

Yeah, I know, I just thought that maybe he still has his tonsils because like you said, he still seems to suffer from respiratory problems a lot and that might explain it.

And lol, I wasn't even specifically thinking about being promiscous actually, just being surrounded by lots of random people with all kinds of germs on them in general (fans, crew, media people, hotel staff etc), but yeah, that certainly doesn't help either :P

And yeah, maybe he was speaking in a figurative sense. I'd prefer to believe that at least. But I'm not sure if his rebelliousness would necessarily have protected him. The one case I do know of where a father was violent towards his teenage son ended with the son basically fighting back and also attacking/hitting his father each time he tried to do that. But somehow that never stopped the guy from being violent. The son had to move in with somebody else before he finally found peace from that old bastard. Also we don't know what Axl's step father looks like and how tall/strong the guy is. With Axl being a tiny guy (and even skinnier as a kid), I guess it's possible that the stepfather might have had the upperhand strength-wise and could have physically overpowered him or something :unsure:

 

10 hours ago, stella said:

I think that there are a lot of different types of intelligence - someone who is intellectually gifted, for instance, might not be socially intelligent. There are all those super-smart people who seem to have absolutely no social or emotional intelligence whatsoever (read some of the accounts of Mensa gatherings sometimes, for instance...they actually had to develop a "dot system" because there were so many people at their annual gatherings who were invading others' personal space and hugging others without their consent. You'd think someone who was smart enough to be in Mensa would be smart enough to know that you don't just go up to a stranger and put your hands on them, but that wasn't the case.

And it has also been said that a lot of people who fall into cults are very intelligent. Again, you'd think they'd be able to question what they're being told and come to a conclusion that it's harmful, but no. Like that Heaven's Gate cult who were all computer genuises, and committed suicide because they thought they were going to hitch a ride on a comet.

So I think that being intelligent doesn't always equate with being smart, savvy or able to parse the bullshit from the truth.

I think with Axl, one of the issues is that he was raised in a system where he was not allowed to question things. He had to accept what he was told as fact - stuff that was not readily verifiable - and it was hammered into his head in a very authoritative way. He was beaten and punished for speaking his mind or disagreeing, and he was thrown out of his house for it. I think on some level that sticks with someone, even if they do the work later on. And that was a very sheltered life as well, probably - if you've ever met a kid from a very religious household, they don't have a lot of street savvy.

And I think another issue is that he's very emotionally vulnerable, and really wants to fix what he feels is wrong, and he's searching desperately for solutions, and that leads to trouble and getting taken in a lot of the time.

With the tonsils, yeah, it sounds like they need to go. I also had issues with my tonsils, and when they were gone, I felt so much better. I've heard it's one of those surgeries where unfortunately the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other - back in the day they used to grab kids' tonsils at the slightest provocation, and now they're so conservative about it that they wait too long and refuse to operate even when people really do need tonsillectomies.

Yeah, you're right, there are different kinds of intelligence. That's what I meant by "At least in that regard." I can see he's quite bright and gifted in some ways, but I guess just for me on a personal level, a lack of common sense/that levely of gullibility/naivity is more disturbing than a lack of intelligence/knowledge in other areas for some reason.

Also thank for you bringing up the influence of the very religious, dogmatic and sheltered way he was raised in. I absolutely agree, but I always forget about that aspect. Probably because that is the complete opposite of the way I (and most other people I know) were raised and I have no real personal experience with that. It's funny, my entire country is officially Catholic and it's the state religion, but hardly anyone actually believes in any of that stuff or takes it seriously (at least not among people under 60), or lives a life that is in any way significantly influenced by religion or the bible. It's a country full of atheists/agnostics that are only Catholic on paper :rolleyes::facepalm: People being so concerned about leading "godly lifes" and living their life according to the bible and all that broohaha about sin and evil and modesty and whatever else these people constantly go on about is something I only know from (US American) TV and people like Axl talking about it, to be honest.

 

10 hours ago, tiutso said:

Do people ever explain what made his intelligence obvious to them? Or is it just generalized?

No, they never really explain, much to my annoyance :P The closest it gets is like what @Blackstar described from Slash's book. I guess it's just that when people keep calling him things such as "super-intelligent", or highly/extremely intelligent etc., I would kind of like to see some concrete examples of that.

I can think of a ton of people who have called Axl intelligent, most notably Slash, Duff, Izzy, Marc Canter, Gina Siler, etc. (Oh yeah and that psychologist or whoever that was that declared him "psychotic, but extremely intelligent" when he was 16 :rolleyes:) So that's mostly people who know/knew him extremely well. Meaning they should know what they're talking about. But they never go into detail explaining what exactly they mean by that.

Imo he's quite gifted musically, but that's not really the same as being intelligent. He's also quite visionary sometimes, but with very hit or miss results.

What else... He seems to be very curious about the world, seems to know about a lot of things going on and he reads a lot. Not necessarily a sign of intelligence either, but all of that is good obviously, and maybe these things impress the people around him? And his teachers have said he was a bright child, so I guess school work- related / academic type things come easily to him. Can't really think of anything else right now though.

 

@Blackstar Thank you for posting that! I've never heard about that Shelley woman before or read any of this. I will have to take a closer look at that tomorrow (I should go to sleep now), but I guess she's person #3 then who's described Axl as naive (besides himself. And Slash, if you count song lyrics lol). 

Being a cynical, skeptical person raised in the age of the internet it's a bit hard to imagine for me I guess, but maybe there really was a surprising amount of naivity inside of him that accounts for a lot of his more eyebrow-raising behavior and decisions. Kinda reminds me of the Better lyrics. "No one ever told me when I was alone, they just thought I'd know better..." Maybe people assumed he'd know better about a lot of things when in fact he didn't.

 

@dgnr Yeah, I think these parts were really sweet as well. :wub: He does come across like a really nice kid in that letter.

Edited by Lumikki

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15 minutes ago, Kira said:

I think though Axl was always pretty up front with the ladies that he was not going to be faithful.  I don't know if he held that double standard with them in return, and if he did, that sucks.  But truthfully, that's what you get when you date a rock star 91/2 times out of ten.

This. There's the interview in Rolling Stone where he says straight up that he can't really do relationships if the other person is going to expect monogamy. And that was around the time he would have been with Erin, 1989.

IMHO if both people are aware that there's no monogamy and it's an open relationship, there shouldn't be an issue. It's not something for everyone, but at least nobody's lying to anyone else. I think the trouble comes if one person is cheating behind the other's back. if that's what happened with Stephanie, it might have been the reason he was upset.

And yeah, I hate to say it but nine times out of ten, if you're married to any guy who is on the road a lot - an athlete, a musician, etc. - there's probably a chance they're going to be fucking around on you, unless you decide to go with them and watch them every second. I suppose in the marriages that last, they figure out a way to handle that.

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1 hour ago, killuridols said:

This is true. I am one of those types who excelled at school but a disaster with social skills :unsure:

There's something else about Axl that I'm not sure if you guys are taking into consideration. He is described as extremely intelligent and talented for music, his singing, songwriting, etc. but the guy didn't receive a lot of education. He dropped high school, so even when you're super intelligent and smart, if you don't study, if you don't read, your potential just goes wasted.

It's not like you are born with a high IQ and you don't need to study because of that. You're not born a genius knowing it all. Like with everything, you need to put some effort. And I think lack of formal education plays a big part in people not being able to distinguish right from wrong and believing the kind of things Axl believes in.

I always thought Axl would be skeptical kind but if he didn't question authority then he's not there. When you're skeptical (i am extremely skeptical) you don't believe in what people tell you until you can collect a bunch of clues or information that you find satisfactory enough to believe in something.

Sounds like any looney could tell him something was the way it was and he would believe it, taking the word of that person as sacred word. Like the time he wanted that guy who "could move the planets" or I dont know what BS that guy was supposed to do :facepalm: and he was fascinated with it...

 

Thinking about this...I think maybe one thing with Axl was that he was raised with such a strong belief system that he searched for things to replace that. Other spiritual paths, so to speak. And he might have been drawn to the New Age kooky stuff because it's so different than the organized religion he grew up in. The similarity is in not questioning authority; just trusting that the authority figures are right and that their beliefs are beyond reproach.

There are still shards of that old belief system here and there: all the crosses he wears, the one in his house, even the AfD logo/tattoo. Even though he's not a conservative Christian evangelical now he still has those touchpoints.

And on intelligence and education, absolutely. Some of the parts of IQ tests usually draw on a person's educational background. It's a good point that a lot of people who really excelled in life didn't go to school or had bad experiences there - there's the old thing about how some of Einstein's teachers didn't like him. And there are a lot of really amazing, intelligent people who didn't go to college or didn't finish - Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are two of those, I think. On the other hand all of those people educated themselves outside of school. it's also true that a good education can give you a solid foundation on which to question and consider what you encounter. I think what school does, if it's a GOOD school, is help you to maximize your intellect by learning to think critically and analytically. And it also provides you with enough information to have a knowledge based you can draw upon if you need it.
 

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9 minutes ago, stella said:

This. There's the interview in Rolling Stone where he says straight up that he can't really do relationships if the other person is going to expect monogamy. And that was around the time he would have been with Erin, 1989.

IMHO if both people are aware that there's no monogamy and it's an open relationship, there shouldn't be an issue. It's not something for everyone, but at least nobody's lying to anyone else. I think the trouble comes if one person is cheating behind the other's back. if that's what happened with Stephanie, it might have been the reason he was upset.

And yeah, I hate to say it but nine times out of ten, if you're married to any guy who is on the road a lot - an athlete, a musician, etc. - there's probably a chance they're going to be fucking around on you, unless you decide to go with them and watch them every second. I suppose in the marriages that last, they figure out a way to handle that.

He told this to Erin in one of the letters he wrote to her (part of the auction) but we also have to remember Erin was a young girl and when you are young and unexperienced in relationships it's hard to understand and handle some things. He was her first love.

Plus, I think she was really in love with Axl. Deeply in love with him, so much that she knew he was screwing around other women but she stayed with him because she loved him. Maybe in her naive and innocent heart of a young girl she thought she could change him. Or that he was going to change once they had a baby.

It didn't happen :(

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7 minutes ago, stella said:

Thinking about this...I think maybe one thing with Axl was that he was raised with such a strong belief system that he searched for things to replace that. Other spiritual paths, so to speak. And he might have been drawn to the New Age kooky stuff because it's so different than the organized religion he grew up in. The similarity is in not questioning authority; just trusting that the authority figures are right and that their beliefs are beyond reproach.

There are still shards of that old belief system here and there: all the crosses he wears, the one in his house, even the AfD logo/tattoo. Even though he's not a conservative Christian evangelical now he still has those touchpoints.

And on intelligence and education, absolutely. Some of the parts of IQ tests usually draw on a person's educational background. It's a good point that a lot of people who really excelled in life didn't go to school or had bad experiences there - there's the old thing about how some of Einstein's teachers didn't like him. And there are a lot of really amazing, intelligent people who didn't go to college or didn't finish - Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are two of those, I think. On the other hand all of those people educated themselves outside of school. it's also true that a good education can give you a solid foundation on which to question and consider what you encounter. I think what school does, if it's a GOOD school, is help you to maximize your intellect by learning to think critically and analytically. And it also provides you with enough information to have a knowledge based you can draw upon if you need it.

I'm thinking too... hehe... hmm.. I guess he kind of.... did question the whole religious thing because he spoke about it on the interviews. I mean, he said "I was forced to read the bible, go to mise every day of the week, etc". He also said how he was punished for watching a woman in bikini on TV or checking out women on magazines.

He knew that system was fucked up because everything he wanted to do he said it was wrong in the eyes of his father, so to me, it's hard to understand how come he wasn't questioning all of that, when in fact he was, but at the same time, as you say, keeping some of it to him, like the crosses and I'd add the shirts with Jesus face he would also wear in shows.

On the "Don't Cry" video he's wearing a shirt with the image of the Guadalupe Virgin, which is the patron saint of México.... I'm not sure if he ever explained why he was wearing those kind of shirts. I always took it as a rebellious thing, as something he would do to make fun of it, but now I'm doubting that thought because I really don't know why he was wearing them. :shrugs:

So basically, I'm confused about it. Like @Lumikki said before, my country is Catholic AF (lol) too and well, the Pope is argentine as you know :rolleyes:, but every time more and more people stop believing, especially young people do not believe at all and are not really practising catholicism as they should be. I was raised Catholic, of course, but I jumped off that boat like 20 years ago and I didn't go looking for a new religion because I think all religions suck, so I'm an atheist now and I can't imagine myself joining a religion in the future or starting to believe in anything that cannot be explained rationally. This is why I don't understand Axl... why does he need any of that if he knows those shits make you a slave and he was supposed to look for freedom, at least, that's what he wrote he wanted :shrugs:

Totally agree with what you wrote in the last paragraph. Higher education really gives you the tools to maximize your intellect and learn to think critically and analytically. I guess it is not a coincidence that when I was inmersed in college it was the time when I finally got rid of all the religion ties and decided to not pay attention to it ever again. The more I read philosophy, psychology and sociology, the more skeptical I became about everything to finally ditch anything that didn't have a rational, scientific explanation.

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I should be working, but I felt like commenting on this topic. I think Axl's so called intelligence doesn't actually exist or is severely overstated at least.

Maybe Axl just cultivated the "genius tortured artist" image through his behavior and has gotten most people to buy into that, despite the fact that he doesn't actually seem to be particularly intelligent.

And let's face it, on average 80s rock musicians/hair metal dudes just aren't the most intelligent bunch in general. It's easy for someone mildy clever, opinionated and articulate like Axl to stand out and appear intelligent when the competition you're dealing with are the likes of Poison, WASP, Motley Crue, Sebastian Bach, Steven Adler and so forth.

The only thing that gives me pause is when people that I actually consider to be quite smart and educated -like Duff for example- call Axl intelligent. I'd like to know what they base that on as well.

As for Axl cheating on Erin and Steph, yeah well, he did what most rock stars did. The only problem I see here is the inequality of the relationships. If the girls had been free to do as they pleased as well I don't really see a problem with his behavior. But as the Paris crisis shows, he expected them to stay faithful to him, while he got to screw around behind their backs. And I'm scared to think of what he would have done to Erin if he'd caught her cheating on him. He's a giant fucking hypocrite.

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