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1 hour ago, Lumikki said:

I can think of a ton of people who have called Axl intelligent, most notably Slash, Duff, Izzy, Marc Canter, Gina Siler, etc. (Oh yeah and that psychologist or whoever that was that declared him "psychotic, but extremely intelligent" when he was 16 :rolleyes:) So that's mostly people who know/knew him extremely well. Meaning they should know what they're talking about. But they never go into detail explaining what exactly they mean by that.

Imo he's quite gifted musically, but that's not really the same as being intelligent. He's also quite visionary sometimes, but with very hit or miss results.

What else... He seems to be very curious about the world, seems to know about a lot of things going on and he reads a lot. Not necessarily a sign of intelligence either, but all of that is good obviously, and maybe these things impress the people around him? And his teachers have said he was a bright child, so I guess school work- related / academic type things come easily to him. Can't really think of anything else right now though.

I tried typing out a response but it got too fucking long; that pissed me off. Very summarized version:

1. Not gonna care about his psychologist's words unless I find out where this psychologist was practising and whether it was a psychologist at all, because don't get me started on school counsellors; and whether it was just an evaluation of the impression he was giving off or an actual testing of his cognitive abilities. It's not horribly difficult for a broody intense teenager to bullshit his way through a brief relationship with one of these people if we're talking a shitty area and they demonstrate some insight into the general inner workings of their social context and some intention to optimize it. God knows, I wish I didn't have a reminder that some people can make their way into the psychological field when they really shouldn't have living right next to me.

2. Verbal intelligence. Is often the most obvious giveaway in children with unusual intellectual development. Regardless of their social skills or ability to enter actual verbal interactions easily. Demonstrates skills in operating language and language-based reasoning. If doesn't show up in person's output, whether lyrics, speech, or interaction with linguistic material, person probably not 'super-intelligent'.

Edited by tiutso

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Well Axl doesn't do relationships any more. Hes obviously is totally incapable, for one reason or another. 

I do not think he's any more intelligent than the average human being. He's more talented though.

I have to read back tomo, or whenever cos I've got a sickness bug and feel really ill. :( 

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20 minutes ago, Frey said:

I should be working, but I felt like commenting on this topic. I think Axl's so called intelligence doesn't actually exist or is severely overstated at least.

Maybe Axl just cultivated the "genius tortured artist" image through his behavior and has gotten most people to buy into that, despite the fact that he doesn't actually seem to be particularly intelligent.

And let's face it, on average 80s rock musicians/hair metal dudes just aren't the most intelligent bunch in general. It's easy for someone mildy clever, opinionated and articulate like Axl to stand out and appear intelligent when the competition you're dealing with are the likes of Poison, WASP, Motley Crue, Sebastian Bach, Steven Adler and so forth.

The only thing that gives me pause is when people that I actually consider to be quite smart and educated -like Duff for example- call Axl intelligent. I'd like to know what they base that on as well.

Dude, that's so unfair. I'm not sure if intelligence is the word, but Axl is a cultivated man. And let's face it, looking at the environment he grown up, that's really incredible. It means he was some kind of autodidact, he had to learn, to read, to seek for things that weren't given to him per se.

You don't need to go to school or college to have this kind of 'intelligence'. My dad for example left school and had  to work at a really young age (that's how things were in Portugal during the dictatorship) but he's like one of the most intelligent people I know. He learned lots of shit from reading, from watching documentaries, from always seeking for knowledge, from being interested in what's happening in the world. The fact of being educated doesn't mean shit. 

Culture is something you learn throughout your life, if you want or if you're open to it, and it's even by yourself or by someone that passes it to you. School doesn't give you that.

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42 minutes ago, Frey said:

I should be working, but I felt like commenting on this topic. I think Axl's so called intelligence doesn't actually exist or is severely overstated at least.

Maybe Axl just cultivated the "genius tortured artist" image through his behavior and has gotten most people to buy into that, despite the fact that he doesn't actually seem to be particularly intelligent.

And let's face it, on average 80s rock musicians/hair metal dudes just aren't the most intelligent bunch in general. It's easy for someone mildy clever, opinionated and articulate like Axl to stand out and appear intelligent when the competition you're dealing with are the likes of Poison, WASP, Motley Crue, Sebastian Bach, Steven Adler and so forth.

The only thing that gives me pause is when people that I actually consider to be quite smart and educated -like Duff for example- call Axl intelligent. I'd like to know what they base that on as well.

Why do you consider Duff smart and not Axl? What have you seen in Duff that you can't see in Axl, given the fact that you don't know either of them personally?

I think it is impossible for us to determine what level of intelligence Axl has or to say he's dumb. We cannot call him dumb and we cannot call him particularly intelligent either, since we have no elements to judge him.

Besides, first we would have to agree on what is Intelligence and that's gonna be a tough one, since it seems the academic people can't even agree themselves on how to define intelligence :shrugs:
 

Quote

 

Einstein said, "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." Socrates said, "I know that I am intelligent, because I know that I know nothing." For centuries, philosophers have tried to pinpoint the true measure of intelligence. More recently, neuroscientists have entered the debate, searching for answers about intelligence from a scientific perspective: What makes some brains smarter than others? Are intelligent people better at storing and retrieving memories? Or perhaps their neurons have more connections allowing them to creatively combine dissimilar ideas? (...)

(...) there isn't even a consensus as to what constitutes intelligence in the first place. It is widely accepted that there are different types of intelligence—analytic, linguistic, emotional, to name a few—but psychologists and neuroscientists disagree over whether these intelligences are linked or whether they exist independently from one another.

The 20th century produced three major theories on intelligence. The first, proposed by Charles Spearman in 1904, acknowledged that there are different types of intelligence but argued that they are all correlated—if people tend do well on some sections of an IQ test, they tend to do well on all of them, and vice versa. So Spearman argued for a general intelligence factor called "g," which remains controversial to this day. Decades later, Harvard psychologist Howard Gardner revised this notion with his Theory of Multiple Intelligences, which set forth eight distinct types of intelligence and claimed that there need be no correlation among them; a person could possess strong emotional intelligence without being gifted analytically. Later in 1985, Robert Sternberg, the former dean of Tufts, put forward his Triarchic Theory of Intelligence, which argued that previous definitions of intelligence are too narrow because they are based solely on intelligences that can be assessed in IQ test. Instead, Sternberg believes types of intelligence are broken down into three subsets: analytic, creative, and practical. 

 

Keep reading: http://bigthink.com/going-mental/what-is-intelligence-2

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48 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I'm thinking too... hehe... hmm.. I guess he kind of.... did question the whole religious thing because he spoke about it on the interviews. I mean, he said "I was forced to read the bible, go to mise every day of the week, etc". He also said how he was punished for watching a woman in bikini on TV or checking out women on magazines.

He knew that system was fucked up because everything he wanted to do he said it was wrong in the eyes of his father, so to me, it's hard to understand how come he wasn't questioning all of that, when in fact he was, but at the same time, as you say, keeping some of it to him, like the crosses and I'd add the shirts with Jesus face he would also wear in shows.

On the "Don't Cry" video he's wearing a shirt with the image of the Guadalupe Virgin, which is the patron saint of México.... I'm not sure if he ever explained why he was wearing those kind of shirts. I always took it as a rebellious thing, as something he would do to make fun of it, but now I'm doubting that thought because I really don't know why he was wearing them. :shrugs:

So basically, I'm confused about it. Like @Lumikki said before, my country is Catholic AF (lol) too and well, the Pope is argentine as you know :rolleyes:, but every time more and more people stop believing, especially young people do not believe at all and are not really practising catholicism as they should be. I was raised Catholic, of course, but I jumped off that boat like 20 years ago and I didn't go looking for a new religion because I think all religions suck, so I'm an atheist now and I can't imagine myself joining a religion in the future or starting to believe in anything that cannot be explained rationally. This is why I don't understand Axl... why does he need any of that if he knows those shits make you a slave and he was supposed to look for freedom, at least, that's what he wrote he wanted :shrugs:

Totally agree with what you wrote in the last paragraph. Higher education really gives you the tools to maximize your intellect and learn to think critically and analytically. I guess it is not a coincidence that when I was inmersed in college it was the time when I finally got rid of all the religion ties and decided to not pay attention to it ever again. The more I read philosophy, psychology and sociology, the more skeptical I became about everything to finally ditch anything that didn't have a rational, scientific explanation.

Oh yeah. I don't always understand it when people are raised in uber-religious households. Most people I know are pretty much like what you're describing - they take or leave religion. I was baptized and that was pretty much it. I do believe in a higher power, but I don't consider myself to be part of that denomination now, and I'm not a fan of organized religions either. There are a fair number of people in this country who are VERY religious, though -the minority, but a very vocal one, I think.

I think the thing is, even if he didn't like it and felt forced to be there, it was still the backbone of his upbringing, and that has influence. He actually taught Bible classes at one point, so he knew the religion well enough to teach it to others. Like a kid who grows up in an abusive household - they know it's something they don't like and don't think is right, but that's what influenced their formative years and they can have trauma for the rest of their lives from it. I think growing up in that kind of environment where you're expected to believe what you're told and live according to a very strict code dictated by someone else definitely sticks with a person and is very, very hard to shake.

For the religious symbols - I think they mean something to him; it's not necessarily religious. Maybe more cultural. And I think that is how it is for a lot of people. Dia del los Muertos is really big in some parts of the USA and people who aren't Catholic at all will make altars. It's a big thing. For the Our Lady of Guadalupe shirt, if it's associated with Mexico, that could be an LA nod, because LA has a very strong Mexican heritage.

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I actually think Axl is very intelligent - the way he speaks and expresses himself show that, I think. And then there are the mental/emotional issues with him that also influence things. Having a high intellect doesn't necessarily mean one always makes the right choices...a hell of a lot of very intelligent people end up in very bad situations, and as mentioned before, end up in cults, end up supporting bad leaders, etc.

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2 hours ago, killuridols said:

No, I'm not saying it is a major factor but one to be considered from the big pool of factors that may have led him to believe the loonies.

I remember reading in a 1991 article that Axl was fascinated by The Doors film (it had come out that year) and had watched it 3-4 times already. He probably identified himself a lot with Jim Morrison as he was depicted in the movie having memories from his early childhood and visions of an Indian shaman whom he had supposedly seen during a trip in the desert with his parents. In the 60s with the hippies and all that, this kind of spiritual inquiry was part of the counterculture and many educated people (Morrison was highly educated, formally and informally) were into it. Of course the so called "new age movement" and all the "alternative" crap is a caricature of that aspect of the hippie movement.

Btw, I wonder if Duff, before he left the band, had ever suggested to Axl to go to that martial arts teacher of his. Duff's problem was different and less complicated, but this thing could have helped Axl to an extent and it involved some kind of spirituality (which had nothing to do with the new age frauds).

1 hour ago, Lumikki said:

Imo he's quite gifted musically, but that's not really the same as being intelligent. He's also quite visionary sometimes, but with very hit or miss results.

What else... He seems to be very curious about the world, seems to know about a lot of things going on and he reads a lot. Not necessarily a sign of intelligence either, but all of that is good obviously, and maybe these things impress the people around him? And his teachers have said he was a bright child, so I guess school work- related / academic type things come easily to him. Can't really think of anything else right now though.

I agree with the second paragraph. As for the first, I think Axl is intelligent and very talented, and he could have done much more than he did, but he has some flaws, mainly perfectionism (in the negative sense) and tendency to excess, which are part of his personality along with an (inexplicable to me) insecurity about his abilities. For example, while he considered himself the most important in the band, he thought that outside the band or without it he would be nothing; I remember him saying that he took the band name to save himself, because otherwise he could at best find a job as a hired singer.

59 minutes ago, Frey said:

And let's face it, on average 80s rock musicians/hair metal dudes just aren't the most intelligent bunch in general. It's easy for someone mildy clever, opinionated and articulate like Axl to stand out and appear intelligent when the competition you're dealing with are the likes of Poison, WASP, Motley Crue, Sebastian Bach, Steven Adler and so forth.

I wouldn't put Axl in the same category with all these.

There's a book by Chuck Klosterman (Fargo Rock City: A Heavy Metal Odyssey in Rural North Dakota). I read some pages of it in the google books preview, and I find it very interesting. I intend to buy it. 

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Edited by Blackstar

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20 minutes ago, dgnr said:

Dude, that's so unfair. I'm not sure if intelligence is the word, but Axl is a cultivated man. And let's face it, looking at the environment he grown up, that's really incredible. It means he was some kind of autodidact, he had to learn, to read, to seek for things that weren't given to him per se.

You don't need to go to school or college to have this kind of 'intelligence'. My dad for example left school and had  to work at a really young age (that's how things were in Portugal during the dictatorship) but he's like one of the most intelligent people I know. He learned lots of shit from reading, from watching documentaries, from always seeking for knowledge, from being interested in what's happening in the world. The fact of being educated doesn't mean shit. 

Culture is something you learn throughout your life, if you want or if you're open to it, and it's even by yourself or by someone that passes it to you. School doesn't give you that.

I think you are mixing up concepts here. Culture and education are not the same thing. Everybody has a culture because it is inevitable, you are born into one and you don't get to choose your culture. Also, school and college don't give you any type of intelligence. You are born with a level of intelligence, this one can be improved by your environment and education, but it is what it is. It comes with you from the womb.

Education is important and like @stella pointed out before, a good school or college will give you tools to understand your environment better, if you have the right teachers who motivate you, help you and guide you, it is for sure something very valuable to have and a experience that cannot be replaced by reading magazines or fictional books.

There is a classroom instance that cannot be replaced by the solitary act of reading. I guess this is why I'm not particularly fond of the "learning at a distance" programs. You miss the experience of being in a classroom with all kind of people debating ideas and learning from others.

9 minutes ago, stella said:

I think the thing is, even if he didn't like it and felt forced to be there, it was still the backbone of his upbringing, and that has influence. He actually taught Bible classes at one point, so he knew the religion well enough to teach it to others. Like a kid who grows up in an abusive household - they know it's something they don't like and don't think is right, but that's what influenced their formative years and they can have trauma for the rest of their lives from it. I think growing up in that kind of environment where you're expected to believe what you're told and live according to a very strict code dictated by someone else definitely sticks with a person and is very, very hard to shake.

For the religious symbols - I think they mean something to him; it's not necessarily religious. Maybe more cultural. And I think that is how it is for a lot of people. Dia del los Muertos is really big in some parts of the USA and people who aren't Catholic at all will make altars. It's a big thing. For the Our Lady of Guadalupe shirt, if it's associated with Mexico, that could be an LA nod, because LA has a very strong Mexican heritage.

Yes, you're right.

The trauma also must come from the fact that religion was imposed to him instead of being taught with "love" and "patience". I don't think I was taught religion in that way, by being slapped in the face if I did something wrong or contrary to the religious beliefs so I don't think I've gotten a trauma from it, like Axl did.

Would love to have Axl explaining why he likes those symbols. For example, I pretty dislike the crosses, they have a negative meaning to me. I can see a person being crucified there, someone who is being abused and tortured so I don't want to have that in my chest.... No way, it's sick, in my opinion.

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25 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

There's a book by Chuck Klosterman (Fargo Rock City: A Heavy Metal Odyssey in Rural North Dakota). I read some pages of it in the google books preview, and I find it very interesting. I intend to buy it. 

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this is great :unsure:

i can relate so much to this :unsure:

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3 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I think you are mixing up concepts here. Culture and education are not the same thing. Everybody has a culture because it is inevitable, you are born into one and you don't get to choose your culture. Also, school and college don't give you any type of intelligence. You are born with a level of intelligence, this one can be improved by your environment and education, but it is what it is. It comes with you from the womb.

Education is important and like @stella pointed out before, a good school or college will give you tools to understand your environment better, if you have the right teachers who motivate you, help you and guide you, it is for sure something very valuable to have and a experience that cannot be replaced by reading magazines or fictional books.

There is a classroom instance that cannot be replaced by the solitary act of reading. I guess this is why I'm not particularly fond of the "learning at a distance" programs. You miss the experience of being in a classroom with all kind of people debating ideas and learning from others.

I don't think I expressed myself very well then (damn you english...I'm thinking in portuguese and my bad english maybe didn't help haha). 

I agree with you that culture and education are not the same thing, I'm trying to say that. But I'm not talking about culture as a culture, but as something you learn in your life by reading, by searching for things and not necessarily at school. Like, I don't know, things that happened in History, some science fact, know who invented some random thing - basically things you use in a Trivia game for example. Maybe there's a better word for this that I'm calling 'culture' in english, but I'm not getting there - general knowledge maybe.

These are the kind of things that you 'absorb' or learn by yourself, school will maybe help you with that or maybe not. Most of time it's your curiosity, you don't learn everything at school. It helps, ( sometimes, I would say - I'm sure you already meet someone who has very good grades, who learns very well, but at the end of the day doesn't know shit about the world he's living in ) but that's not all.

What I was trying to say is that Axl has this knowledge, this kind of inteligence if we can say this way, and you don't need to be educated to have that or you born with that. It's a thing that you adquire and develop by yourself.

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59 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I think you are mixing up concepts here. Culture and education are not the same thing. Everybody has a culture because it is inevitable, you are born into one and you don't get to choose your culture. Also, school and college don't give you any type of intelligence. You are born with a level of intelligence, this one can be improved by your environment and education, but it is what it is. It comes with you from the womb.

Education is important and like @stella pointed out before, a good school or college will give you tools to understand your environment better, if you have the right teachers who motivate you, help you and guide you, it is for sure something very valuable to have and a experience that cannot be replaced by reading magazines or fictional books.

There is a classroom instance that cannot be replaced by the solitary act of reading. I guess this is why I'm not particularly fond of the "learning at a distance" programs. You miss the experience of being in a classroom with all kind of people debating ideas and learning from others.

Yes, you're right.

The trauma also must come from the fact that religion was imposed to him instead of being taught with "love" and "patience". I don't think I was taught religion in that way, by being slapped in the face if I did something wrong or contrary to the religious beliefs so I don't think I've gotten a trauma from it, like Axl did.

Would love to have Axl explaining why he likes those symbols. For example, I pretty dislike the crosses, they have a negative meaning to me. I can see a person being crucified there, someone who is being abused and tortured so I don't want to have that in my chest.... No way, it's sick, in my opinion.

I think distance or solitary learning can be great for certain types of people. There are those who really love the classroom interaction and then there are others who do better if they quietly absorb what they're reading or learning. Like I hate, hate, hate, going to museums with other people or tours. I don't want someone to tell me what the painting means; I want look at it, make my own conclusions about it and read the museum's analysis. On the other hand there are certain things that really work better in a classroom. Like learning another language is weird if you never have conversation.

And I agree, I think that a lot of the trauma has to come from being forced into that belief system. For a lot of people from really religious homes, that's all they know - he said he was at church eight times a week. Those kinds of evangelical denominations so often run on fear - it's a good thing to say you're "God fearing." If you don't do what they say you get punished, shunned and told you're going to Hell. It's got to be hard living with that when you're a kid, trying to learn about the world and form opinions.

I may have mentioned this before but I actually know some people who grew up mega religious -and in their 20s and 30s they're still dealing with the fallout. And don't get me wrong, I totally and completely respect people's rights to practice whatever religion they choose, but I really don't like it when they don't give their kids a choice if they want to follow their faith.

I'd love to hear Axl talk about his reasons for liking those symbols too. What's also weird is that he seems to love crucifixes but those don't usually appear in Protestant churches like the one Axl grew up in. Protestants generally use plain crosses. I asked about this once and was told it's because the crucifix shows Jesus dead, and the whole point is that Jesus was resurrected and didn't stay dead. Makes sense, and those plain crosses look better to me, personally. Some of the crucifixes I've seen are just gruesome, and I can't imagine feeling comfortable with that hanging in my living room. He seems to have borrowed a bunch of Catholic symbols, actually...the crucifixes, Our Lady, and he's also worn rosaries. Lots of folks do that now, but not so much 20 years ago. And during the Farm Aid performance he actually did a correct Sign of the Cross. I almost wonder if he's had an interest in Catholicism or at least the symbolism with it.

Stained glass on the other hand is so beautiful - I could totally understand it if someone collected stained glass from churches because that's just amazing work.

 

 

Edited by stella

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34 minutes ago, dgnr said:

I don't think I expressed myself very well then (damn you english...I'm thinking in portuguese and my bad english maybe didn't help haha). 

I agree with you that culture and education are not the same thing, I'm trying to say that. But I'm not talking about culture as a culture, but as something you learn in your life by reading, by searching for things and not necessarily at school. Like, I don't know, things that happened in History, some science fact, know who invented some random thing - basically things you use in a Trivia game for example. Maybe there's a better word for this that I'm calling 'culture' in english, but I'm not getting there - general knowledge maybe.

These are the kind of things that you 'absorb' or learn by yourself, school will maybe help you with that or maybe not. Most of time it's your curiosity, you don't learn everything at school. It helps, ( sometimes, I would say - I'm sure you already meet someone who has very good grades, who learns very well, but at the end of the day doesn't know shit about the world he's living in ) but that's not all.

What I was trying to say is that Axl has this knowledge, this kind of inteligence if we can say this way, and you don't need to be educated to have that or you born with that. It's a thing that you adquire and develop by yourself.

Ok, I get it now. I know what you're talking about. "Cultura general" :P or general knowledge is what you meant and it is something you acquire in school, in daily life and by your own will to learn different things.

No, you don't learn everything at school but since most children are schooled, chances are that most of the basic things you know you learn them in kindergarden and primary school. Of course, your family matters and that's the first environment where you learn things.

The things you learn in life and outside school are helpful for your survival in society. General knowledge is not specific, you learn a bit of everything and you may acquire a vast general knowledge but if you want to be an architect or a lawyer or a surgeon, you will need to attend the university because that type of specific knowledge you won't get it from the magazines or documentaries.

Yes, Axl has that knowledge like probably most adults have it. The older you get the more you learn about life, interactions, dealing with people, money, etc. It is part of a healthy growth as a person, as you move towards adulthood. I don't think this is related to intelligence, though.

It is more like being 'street smart' but probably Axl has lost a lot of it by now since he lives pretty sheltered and doesn't really walk the streets like he used to when he was young.

12 minutes ago, stella said:

I think distance or solitary learning can be great for certain types of people. There are those who really love the classroom interaction and then there are others who do better if they quietly absorb what they're reading or learning. Like I hate, hate, hate, going to museums with other people or tours. I don't want someone to tell me what the painting means; I want look at it, make my own conclusions about it and read the museum's analysis. On the other hand there are certain things that really work better in a classroom. Like learning another language is weird if you never have conversation.

-------

I'd love to hear Axl talk about his reasons for liking those symbols too. What's also weird is that he seems to love crucifixes but those don't usually appear in Protestant churches like the one Axl grew up in. Protestants generally use plain crosses. I asked about this once and was told it's because the crucifix shows Jesus dead, and the whole point is that Jesus was resurrected and didn't stay dead. Makes sense, and those plain crosses look better to me, personally. Some of the crucifixes I've seen are just gruesome, and I can't imagine feeling comfortable with that hanging in my living room. He seems to have borrowed a bunch of Catholic symbols, actually...the crucifixes, Our Lady, and he's also worn rosaries. Lots of folks do that now, but not so much 20 years ago. And during the Farm Aid performance he actually did a correct Sign of the Cross. I almost wonder if he's had an interest in Catholicism or at least the symbolism with it.

Stained glass on the other hand is so beautiful - I could totally understand it if someone collected stained glass from churches because that's just amazing work.

Well, I don't like reading with people around, so yeah, when I have to do my readings for class, I'm alone and its usually in the night when everybody's in silence and I know I wont get interrupted by crap. But then, going to the classroom and listening to the teacher expose their class is a great experience if the teacher is a good one. And debating the ideas with your classmates and the teacher is a great experience, in my opinion, because I'm pretty much into debate, lol.

So far, academic environments have been the only places where I have felt like swimming in gold because of the great chance I have had of being in the same place with extraordinary minds, highly educated and brilliant researchers. People with whom you can really take the conversation and debate to a higher level that I can't have at home with my family or anywhere else with friends.

It gets even better if from those gatherings, ideas are being cooked and you are maybe creating the next theory that will change your society. Or you are designing a plan for your local community to improve its public policies. University is great if you really make something out of it and use it for your benefit and also to benefit others, whatever your field of study is, there is always something you can do for people. I guess that's where the whole value of education resides.

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That observation is interesting, Axl appropiating symbols from Catholicism instead of the ones he grew up with. Could be the influence of Beta? Brasil is as Catholic as Argentina so there's a chance she may have influenced him with her own religion.

Yeah, it is "trendy" now to wear rosaries and crosses that do not have Jesus nailed on them. I have this strange rosary too that doesn't have any religious reference, like no image of Virgin Mary or cross at all, the end of it its actually cut off, lol.

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Well 

57 minutes ago, stella said:

And during the Farm Aid performance he actually did a correct Sign of the Cross. I almost wonder if he's had an interest in Catholicism or at least the symbolism with it.

?

 

maybe We need to understand about the meaning of the crucifix first so tht We know why Axl love crucifixes

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Yeah, there are different kinds of intelligent, if we go with the "classic" ripartion of the theory of the multiple intelligences (there are a lot of theories about intelligence but the theory that there is ONE intelligence is not used anymore by anyone in psychology) there are 9 kinds and no-one has all them developed to the max, maybe his interpersonal intelligence is lacking and he's guillible about other people's motive but that doesn't mean he isn't intelligent in other ways: he has obviously a lot of musical intelligence, he has made millions with that, he seems articulate to me so he has linguistic intelligence and he seems to me from the various interviews that he reflects on himself and he knows there are problems and what they were within himself so he has intrapersonal intellingence, for example, and all of them are totally kinds of intelligences so he is intelligent.

 

About the crucifixes, maybe he has abbandoned the evangelical church but not christianity and he has accosted himseld to catholicism? The doctrines are quite different, actually, protestantism preachs you are saved by the grace of god, your actions in life don't matter in your salvation, if you go to heaven is decided by god from the start, you don't count.

Catholics have free will in their doctrine and your salvation is determineted by how you live your life, YOU decide if you're going to hell by what you do.

I can see him not being okay with the predestination aspect  of protestantism and liking more the free will aspect of catholicism because of his need of control.

Or maybe, he thinks crucifixes are just pretty :lol:

Edited by giuls
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10 hours ago, killuridols said:

I'm thinking too... hehe... hmm.. I guess he kind of.... did question the whole religious thing because he spoke about it on the interviews. I mean, he said "I was forced to read the bible, go to mise every day of the week, etc". He also said how he was punished for watching a woman in bikini on TV or checking out women on magazines.

He knew that system was fucked up because everything he wanted to do he said it was wrong in the eyes of his father, so to me, it's hard to understand how come he wasn't questioning all of that, when in fact he was, but at the same time, as you say, keeping some of it to him, like the crosses and I'd add the shirts with Jesus face he would also wear in shows.

So basically, I'm confused about it. Like @Lumikki said before, my country is Catholic AF (lol) too and well, the Pope is argentine as you know :rolleyes:, but every time more and more people stop believing, especially young people do not believe at all and are not really practising catholicism as they should be. I was raised Catholic, of course, but I jumped off that boat like 20 years ago and I didn't go looking for a new religion because I think all religions suck, so I'm an atheist now and I can't imagine myself joining a religion in the future or starting to believe in anything that cannot be explained rationally. This is why I don't understand Axl... why does he need any of that if he knows those shits make you a slave and he was supposed to look for freedom, at least, that's what he wrote he wanted :shrugs:

Like you said, maybe it really is the way how religion was presented to you in your childhood. Growing up in a Catholic AF country (lol thanks for that) as well, I was also raised Catholic technically speaking. But in my case that only meant I was baptized, put through all these rituals like first communion etc. and had to sit through religious education classes in school. And I had to go to church a few times a year on special occasions when I was a child (later on my family stopped going to church entirely).

But in every day life, religion had zero importance or influence and that's where mine (or our, going by the way you talk) and Axl's childhood really differs, despite both (all) of us being raised in some form of really dogmatic Christianity.

I never got beaten for doing something sinful- because concepts like sin don't really exist in my parents minds (except as a joking matter) and they certainly didn't think singing along to the radio or looking at scantily clad people on TV was sinful.

I didn't have to read the bible or learn it by heart- because we didn't even have a bible at home and my parents couldn't have cared less about that old dusty book.

I didn't have to go to church 8 times a week- I already threw temper tantrums about the like 3 or 4 times a year I actually did have to go to church (because it was boring AF). Which had zero consequences except my parents maybe yelling at me or threatening to revoke some privileges. I shudder to imagine what would have happened to Axl if he had thrown a temper tantrum about going to church :scared:

I was allowed to be skeptical and question things- I got into trouble with my religious education teacher in elementary school once for making a remark about the Adam and Eve story being bullshit because then we'd all be descended from the incestual offspring of Adam and Eve's children. My teacher wasn't amused, but my dad was proud lol. Around the same time (I must have been 8 or 9 or so) I also told my parents that I didn't believe in god and that I thought Catholicism was bullshit. My mom was a bit upset about that, but my dad was pretty pleased again (he's harbored a disdain for religion and the church his entire life lol). I imagine if Axl had said something like that as a child there'd probably have been hell to pay. Religion just had a much more direct impact on his life than it ever had on mine and I guess that leaves scars :unsure:

8 hours ago, stella said:

I'd love to hear Axl talk about his reasons for liking those symbols too. What's also weird is that he seems to love crucifixes but those don't usually appear in Protestant churches like the one Axl grew up in. Protestants generally use plain crosses. I asked about this once and was told it's because the crucifix shows Jesus dead, and the whole point is that Jesus was resurrected and didn't stay dead. Makes sense, and those plain crosses look better to me, personally. Some of the crucifixes I've seen are just gruesome, and I can't imagine feeling comfortable with that hanging in my living room. He seems to have borrowed a bunch of Catholic symbols, actually...the crucifixes, Our Lady, and he's also worn rosaries. Lots of folks do that now, but not so much 20 years ago. And during the Farm Aid performance he actually did a correct Sign of the Cross. I almost wonder if he's had an interest in Catholicism or at least the symbolism with it.

Stained glass on the other hand is so beautiful - I could totally understand it if someone collected stained glass from churches because that's just amazing work.

8 hours ago, killuridols said:

That observation is interesting, Axl appropiating symbols from Catholicism instead of the ones he grew up with. Could be the influence of Beta? Brasil is as Catholic as Argentina so there's a chance she may have influenced him with her own religion.

That thing about it maybe being Beta's influence has crossed my mind as well. But then again he seemed to start doing that kind of thing even before he met her (or got close with her), so who knows.

@stella You'd love my hometown then :P Huge ass, giant Jesus nailed to a crucifix right outside of the church, overlooking the town square. I remember walking past that thing as a child, looking up at it, and always being morbidly fascinated by the blood running down his hands and from his head where the crown of thorns was digging into his skull. Plus smaller Jesus nailed to the cross type crucifixes in every class room in school and in every living room, kitchen, bedroom, etc in the houses of most people. :rolleyes:

 

39 minutes ago, giuls said:

Yeah, there are different kinds of intelligent, if we go with the "classic" ripartion of the theory of the multiple intelligences (there are a lot of theories about intelligence but the theory that there is ONE intelligence is not used anymore by anyone in psychology) there are 9 kinds and no-one has all them developed to the max, maybe his interpersonal intelligence is lacking and he's guillible about other people's motive but that doesn't mean he isn't intelligent in other ways: he has obviously a lot of musical intelligence, he has made millions with that, he seems articulate to me so he has linguistic intelligence and he seems to me from the various interviews that he reflects on himself and he knows there are problems and what they were within himself so he has intrapersonal intellingence, for example, and all of them are totally kinds of intelligences so he is intelligent.

Yeah, I mostly tend to agree with that. He's... reasonably intelligent and gifted when it comes to music, self-reflection, language-related skills, academic things/book learning, etc. But he's a mess when it comes to people skills, common sense, and so on. Though it's not really surprising if you consider the way he was raised. People don't tend to develop great interpersonal skills for example in environments like the one he grew up in.

 

10 hours ago, tiutso said:

I tried typing out a response but it got too fucking long; that pissed me off. Very summarized version:

1. Not gonna care about his psychologist's words unless I find out where this psychologist was practising and whether it was a psychologist at all, because don't get me started on school counsellors; and whether it was just an evaluation of the impression he was giving off or an actual testing of his cognitive abilities. It's not horribly difficult for a broody intense teenager to bullshit his way through a brief relationship with one of these people if we're talking a shitty area and they demonstrate some insight into the general inner workings of their social context and some intention to optimize it. God knows, I wish I didn't have a reminder that some people can make their way into the psychological field when they really shouldn't have living right next to me.

2. Verbal intelligence. Is often the most obvious giveaway in children with unusual intellectual development. Regardless of their social skills or ability to enter actual verbal interactions easily. Demonstrates skills in operating language and language-based reasoning. If doesn't show up in person's output, whether lyrics, speech, or interaction with linguistic material, person probably not 'super-intelligent'.

I agree with you, I find that assessment highly suspect as well (that's why I put it in brackets and added the :rolleyes: emoji). Who knows what effect it might have had on Axl though...

7 hours ago, tiutso said:

https://twitter.com/gunsnroses/status/764310989680447490/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Man, this is giving me major 'story about slash watching slaxl clones make out' vibes :lol:

Hah, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of that. That was literally my first thought when I saw that picture on IG this morning :lol:

Btw, did you mean the Periscope link that was posted in the concert thread or did you find another one of Grace's performance somewhere? I kinda wanted to watch her, but was too tired to stay up for it.

Edited by Lumikki
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1 hour ago, Lumikki said:

Btw, did you mean the Periscope link that was posted in the concert thread or did you find another one of Grace's performance somewhere? I kinda wanted to watch her, but was too tired to stay up for it.

That's the one I watched. Time Waster starts somewhere round the 2 minute mark.

https://www.periscope.tv/JBrown2844/1YpKkoZeLrYKj

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It would be weird if They are on the front row. Couldnt imagine Axl N' Slash see that :rofl-lol:

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

Was Axl wearing an earring last night?

Huh? 

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1 hour ago, Lumikki said:

I never got beaten for doing something sinful- because concepts like sin don't really exist in my parents minds (except as a joking matter) and they certainly didn't think singing along to the radio or looking at scantily clad people on TV was sinful.

In My house some things are sinful but yeah, I never got beaten because of tht

Edited by SerenityScorp

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