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3 hours ago, stella said:

And I also agree that many of those who mock the family Axl has built might not be able to conceive of the situation he's been in. The guy has finally, FINALLY found a family he trusts and loves. He didn't have it before, other than his siblings, and that's nothing to laugh about. Sometimes when our blood family is hurtful and toxic, we do find another one.

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14 minutes ago, Lumikki said:

@Jane M. Out of likes, but this is probably not too far from the truth :P This reminds me that I'd also really like to see Axl's journals (you know the ones that he tortured Izzy with on the phone). I'm sure Axl's mean girls-esque musings about Slash, Izzy and everyone else would be spectacular :lol:

----------------------

Also shout-out to @stella and (@Whiskey Rose earlier) :thumbsup:

I've noticed that people like me, @killuridols, @MillionsOfSpiders, @Frey, @giuls, @starlight, @Andy14 (? judging by you liking Frey's post) and a few others all tend to have very similar opinions when it comes to TB, NuGNR, etc.

But I do actually really enjoy and appreciate seeing opposing points of view, especially when they're well argued and presented like that.

Part of me even wishes I could agree. I mean I do agree with some parts actually, but I'm just too much of a suspicious, mistrustful bitch to really be able to believe the best about TB for example.

 

Thank you! :)

I don't think that TB are walking around with halos or that they've been awesome in every respect, but I do think they care for Axl - and I also honestly think that if they hadn't been there for him, Axl wouldn't be here today. We can all talk about who should have been there for Axl and talked to him, etc. etc. etc. but the bottom line is that there wasn't anyone else, other than Del, TB, etc. People do the best with what they have, at the time they have it, and I don't think TB want Axl to fail.

 

Edited by stella
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55 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Are you a musician? Yes. Do you make music? No. :facepalm:

I don't follow this logic.  Are musicians in symphony orchestras not musicians if they don't publish sonatas and concertos?  Are opera singers not musicians if they don't write their own arias?  How about Frank Sinatra, Diana Ross, Elvis?  

@stella beat me to it.  

Edited by triad
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6 minutes ago, Lumikki said:

@Jane M. Out of likes, but this is probably not too far from the truth :P This reminds me that I'd also really like to see Axl's journals (you know the ones that he tortured Izzy with on the phone). I'm sure Axl's mean girls-esque musings about Slash, Izzy and everyone else would be spectacular :lol:

Those journals must have amazing quotes. :rofl-lol:

Axl: Izzy on March 29, 1978 while we were jamming at your parents house you said that you were always going to be my friend. That you were always going to be by my side, for better or for worse, it's on my journals. 

Izzy: WTF?!?:blink:

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1 hour ago, Frey said:

I don't know what it is, but that entire extended cuddle sequence there in that video is really fucking gay :lol: Not being an ass, I just mean that as a factual statement.

Maybe you girls are right and they did have something going on between them. And maybe this was the day they confessed their undying love to each other or the day they fucked for the first time or some other corny chick flick bullshit like that. (How's that for an explanation? I deserve points for coming up with that :lol:)

 

Yeah you deserve, so here's your like;)  And also - finally you are seeing too!! Join the Slaxl side, man.

But now, seriously, that whole show is full of foreplay... like really, it's just touch too much between those two. Whatever happened after that performance had to be wild. :shrugs:

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Well Ive just gotten home from work and see I've created a maelstrom with my TB post haha. @stella I've read all your comments and we are definitely on the same wavelength in almost every aspect..we are the minority, but i'm ok with that! As for the other views, I can understand where some of you are coming from..just don't necessarily agree.. Un42nutzly this is a very divisive topic among fans so I will leave it at that and not bring this thread down even more by responding to each persons point :lol:. Bottom line, no matter what has happened in the past, everyone seems to be in a great place right now..and that is what matters. Now, onto more important things like Slaxl pics!

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6 hours ago, Whiskey Rose said:

For @RooSaa  I'm going to give another interpretation of Beta other than the one which seems to be popular here. first, I don't think she "blackmailed" Axl, the No More Managers or I quit comment came from the exasperation they were all feeling with the multitude of managers who came and went who didn't care what Axl wanted, but whose only agenda was a reunion when axl wasn't ready for it. She saw him get used and disappointed again and again and was fed up. And yes, I think she would do anything for her family..and guess what..Axl is family. To say that the Lebais' don't care for him just because he employs them is extremely callous towards axl imo...there are lots and lots and lots of family businesses in the world, are all those sons and daughters and brothers and sisters leeches too? Just to be clear, he is not paying them to be his family, they are his family whom he employs. Just because it is not the conventional type of family does not mean it is any less valid..they chose each other. I think a lot of people who are critical of this are probably sitting cozy with loving parents, a spouse nearby and children playing in the background..or if not, at least young enough where the possibility for this still exists..Axl never found this..to judge him for having these people in his life, or for wanting them to be out of his life, seems cruel and self indulgent. Everyone deserves a family right? And family does not necessarily mean blood ties. He finally has a house full of children, and people who he cares about who he can provide for..this is what he has always wanted. Just because it doesn't fit someone else's view shouldn't negate it. He is a grown man who can make his own decisions, he has decided he loves these people, he is happy, lets let them all be.

This.

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34 minutes ago, triad said:

I don't follow this logic.  Are musicians in symphony orchestras not musicians if they don't publish sonatas and concertos?  Are opera singers not musicians if they don't write their own arias?  How about Frank Sinatra, Diana Ross, Elvis?  

Yes, but Axl is not this kind of musician. If he were, he wouldn't want so much to be in a band or have a band of his own. He wanted a band to fulfill his creative vision; and his excuse for the legal maneuver of taking the band name was (from what he has said), besides financial issues, that he was afraid he would end up being just a singer and not a musician with creative freedom.

@stella, I don't disregard the changes in the music industry and the effect they have on musicians, but I think there are ways for artists to release music if they want to, especially when they have the money Axl has. Radiohead is a characteristic example of that.

 

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1 hour ago, Lanna said:
4 hours ago, stella said:

And I also agree that many of those who mock the family Axl has built might not be able to conceive of the situation he's been in. The guy has finally, FINALLY found a family he trusts and loves. He didn't have it before, other than his siblings, and that's nothing to laugh about. Sometimes when our blood family is hurtful and toxic, we do find another one.

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Dude, harsh.

I don't really see what there is to disagree with that part of the post. Even I agreed with that part when I read it :lol: I'm not surprised Axl is clinging to TB like that and I'm glad he has found something close to what he always wanted. I just wish he'd found a better, less questionable family than them.

1 hour ago, Jane M. said:

Points and cookies. 

I'm out of likes but :wub::heart::wub:

1 hour ago, Andy14 said:

It's fucking cute :hug:

You do deserve points...and a bit of Slaxl cuddle too :smiley-confused2:

1 hour ago, giuls said:

You deserve a hug too, Slaxl padawan :lol: :hug:good job

40 minutes ago, dgnr said:

Yeah you deserve, so here's your like;)  And also - finally you are seeing too!! Join the Slaxl side, man.

But now, seriously, that whole show is full of foreplay... like really, it's just touch too much between those two. Whatever happened after that performance had to be wild. :shrugs:

I'll gladly take points, cookies, likes and hugs from you guys, but I'll decline on the Slaxl cuddles (don't wanna come between them and not really into sweaty old guy hugs either :lol:).

And I'll leave you to imagine what happened after the performance. I've already reached my Slaxl limit for today.

41 minutes ago, Jane M. said:

Those journals must have amazing quotes. :rofl-lol:

Axl: Izzy on March 29, 1978 while we were jamming at your parents house you said that you were always going to be my friend. That you were always going to be by my side, for better or for worse, it's on my journals. 

Izzy: WTF?!?:blink:

"And today Slash said he never liked my white leather pants and jacket! What an asshole! What does he even know? Wearing the same pair of piss-stained jeans day in, day out..."

Edited by Frey
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1 hour ago, stella said:

Playing music is "making music." Is someone who has a career as, say, a symphony orchestra violinist - and goes through years of conservatory training to get to that point - any less a musician because they only play live music and play other people's compositions?

And it's not a lame excuse - it's what bands tell people now themselves. They have to look at the bottom line and do what's profitable, and that's not full albums for the most part. It's rare for an album to even go gold these days. 

 

34 minutes ago, triad said:

I don't follow this logic.  Are musicians in symphony orchestras not musicians if they don't publish sonatas and concertos?  Are opera singers not musicians if they don't write their own arias?  How about Frank Sinatra, Diana Ross, Elvis?  

@stella beat me to it.  

There are musicians who only play an instrument and other people's compositions and there are other musicians who play, compose, write lyrics, arrange and record music.

Guns N' Roses and Axl Rose are musicians AND composers AND recording artists with a CV of music and lyrics composed by themselves, among some covers they've done, most of their material is originally written by them and they have promoted themselves like that.

So that comparison is not in place here. We are not talking about musicians in an symphony orchestra playing Mozart and Beethoven. We are talking about a rock band with material of their own.

I don't know who's saying albums or releasing music is not profitable. Whenever I open iTunes I get bombarded with suggestions for new bands, artists, albums and songs. If no one was making music nowadays I dont think such things as iTunes or Spotify would exist.

Also, for writting a great song you don't need millions of dollars. Much less in the case of GN'R or Axl. He has an amazing voice, he could sing a capella and he would still be brilliant. A guitar and a piano are all he needs to shine. Tell me if you dont think simple, acoustic compositions like 'You Are Crazy' and 'One In A Million' from Lies are not amazing songs? (please only consider the music in OIAM, not the lyrics).

They recorded that album in like 4 hours, I believe. How much money does that take? If they were to write another "Patience" and release it like that, they would recover whatever little money they put on it in a heartbeat.

The fact that you guys are denying the essence of being an artist, which is to make art, only shows that you are being stubborn for the sake of it or too much into sugarcoating of the sad fact of GN'R not releasing new music when they have all they need to do it: talent, money, the voice, the time and the support of their fans.

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1 hour ago, Lumikki said:

I've noticed that people like me, @killuridols, @MillionsOfSpiders, @Frey, @giuls, @starlight, @Andy14 (? judging by you liking Frey's post) and a few others all tend to have very similar opinions when it comes to TB, NuGNR, etc.

But I do actually really enjoy and appreciate seeing opposing points of view, especially when they're well argued and presented like that.

Part of me even wishes I could agree. I mean I do agree with some parts actually, but I'm just too much of a suspicious, mistrustful bitch to really be able to believe the best about TB for example.

I think it is TOO NAIVE to think TB does not have an interest here after all the time they've been around Axl, helping him or working for him.

Even families with blood ties end up in legal trouble sometimes when some family member dies and money or whatever kind of inheritance is at stake.

If they've worked their ass off during all this time, I guess it is fair they receive their part but I am suspicious of the fact of Axl not getting married or having children.

Just think how much of a threat that is for all of them. Their entire hope of inheriting Axl's millions would die the minute he marries someone or has a child of his own.

Despite they love him for real or not and have helped him in his moments of despair, I think Axl deserves a family of his own or at least a woman who loves him and he loves her back.

No one in TB can give him THAT kind of love and companionship.

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3 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I think Axl deserves a family of his own or at least a woman who loves him and he loves her back.

No one in TB can give him THAT kind of love and companionship.

Of course he does! and of course they can't! But you can't think they have anything to do with this in particular. How would they control something like that?? That is just too Machiavellian...perhaps he has just not met someone he loves enough to want to marry? (after Erin). That seems much more plausible to me.

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6 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Of course he does! and of course they can't! But you can't think they have anything to do with this in particular. How would they control something like that?? That is just too Machiavellian...perhaps he has just not met someone he loves enough to want to marry? (after Erin). That seems much more plausible to me.

what if he loves Erin and they keep him away from her, just like they kept Slash and Duff away for a long time?

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1 minute ago, killuridols said:

what if he loves Erin and they keep him away from her, just like they kept Slash and Duff away for a long time?

If indeed they DID do that, it was because he made it clear that was what HE wanted and they didn't want him upset. He is in control here. And also in a different "place" now. Even if they worry that their inheritance is at stake if he meets someone and has a child, (which prob has crossed their mind to an extent, which it would with anyone) they are not going to actually do something evil and what, restrain him? drug him? lock him up? to keep him from Erin if that is what he wants. No matter their managerial skills, they still love him and want him to be happy, even if it means less millions for them. I think if he isn't with Erin, it's because he doesn't want to be. And if he does, he will try to make it happen. Especially now, when he is feeling powerful and on top of the world.

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23 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

If indeed they DID do that, it was because he made it clear that was what HE wanted and they didn't want him upset. He is in control here. And also in a different "place" now. Even if they worry that their inheritance is at stake if he meets someone and has a child, (which prob has crossed their mind to an extent, which it would with anyone) they are not going to actually do something evil and what, restrain him? drug him? lock him up? to keep him from Erin if that is what he wants. No matter their managerial skills, they still love him and want him to be happy, even if it means less millions for them. I think if he isn't with Erin, it's because he doesn't want to be. And if he does, he will try to make it happen. Especially now, when he is feeling powerful and on top of the world.

Duff's casual encounter at that hotel was something that happened out of pure destiny and luck, or else it would have never happened. They also thought Axl wouldn't want to see Duff and kept insisting on Duff to leave, until Axl checked who was making all that noise outside his room, came out and approved to have him come in.

That is just one example of how they think Axl needs this or that, wants this or that, acting like rottweilers, but they are not always on point with what they think Axl needs/wants.

They don't need to do anything evil or movie-like to control someone as vulnerable as Axl. They are already in control of a lot of things Axl is not. A phone call not transfered, a letter not given, a message not delivered, anything can be manipulated towards not having certain people get in touch with him. These subtle little things add up and can work very well towards a goal.

Maybe Axl wants lots of things but he is afraid of asking or doing them. He's insecure at times. He's not confident at times. He's known for asking opinions on lyrics, songs, his own album, etc. to people around him.

One person from his circle that he respects saying certain something is either not good or right for him, I'm pretty sure he will take their word and change his mind on whatever he wanted before.

If he was more independent from the Lebeis, he'd travel alone and do a lot of things on his own. When do you see him not surrounded by a hive of assistants?

That is a huge indicator of codependency.

21 minutes ago, RochelleRochelle said:

Another interesting TB point. On Beta's IG awhile back she posted a pic from the high school in Minnesota that she attended as an exchange student back in the day. I think there's a lot more to Beta's story than meets the eye. 

I didn't know that. Interesting.

Not sure how it is bad though.

13 minutes ago, cheesecake said:

I'm with @Whiskey Rose on this issue. Axl is not a puppet who is being completely controlled by a master. Axl has a mind of his own, yes,  people around him can influence him to certain extent but at the end of the day he decides how he wants to live his life.

You think that people with mental disorders are puppets?

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2 hours ago, stella said:

Thank you! :)

I don't think that TB are walking around with halos or that they've been awesome in every respect, but I do think they care for Axl - and I also honestly think that if they hadn't been there for him, Axl wouldn't be here today. We can all talk about who should have been there for Axl and talked to him, etc. etc. etc. but the bottom line is that there wasn't anyone else, other than Del, TB, etc. People do the best with what they have, at the time they have it, and I don't think TB want Axl to fail.

 

I tend to agree, you can speculate about TBs motives, but ultimately they have put in a lot of years with Axl after he drove nearly everyone else away.  They have filled some void for him.

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2 hours ago, triad said:

I don't follow this logic.  Are musicians in symphony orchestras not musicians if they don't publish sonatas and concertos?  Are opera singers not musicians if they don't write their own arias?  How about Frank Sinatra, Diana Ross, Elvis?  

@stella beat me to it.  

I'm sure Axl has always continued to write music, getting him to release it is another matter.  It would be nice if he did, but he doesn't have to to prove that he's a musician.  And I'm sure with the reformed band, it's even more complicated.  

And also, what percentage of fans that came out to their concerts this summer are actually interested in new music from them?  The majority of them don't even know CD....

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9 minutes ago, killuridols said:

 

You think that people with mental disorders are puppets?

My dear @killuridols I don' t think, because I don' t know, TBH. No one can ascertain our Axl has mental disorder,  yes we can make assumptions and deductions from what we have been witnessing all these years but maybe that is what he wants us to see and assume?  Truth is we are merely speculators. We don't really know for sure.

If you believe he is suffering from any mental disorders, then the more reason why he should not (and maybe he himself wouldn't want to) be married,  especially to Erin. Hasn't she suffered enough before? 

All I'm saying ( bear with me I'm terribly BAD at writing long winding post and explaining what's on my mind hence my always short posts) we don't really know these public figures other than the person they want to put out for us to see and believe. Unless we live in their circles...we can only assume and speculate.

Sorry for my bad grammar or quality of writing. Really not good at articulating my thoughts.

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3 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Duff's casual encounter at that hotel was something that happened out of pure destiny and luck, or else it would have never happened. They also thought Axl wouldn't want to see Duff and kept insisting on Duff to leave, until Axl checked who was making all that noise outside his room, came out and approved to have him come in.

That is just one example of how they think Axl needs this or that, wants this or that, acting like rottweilers, but they are not always on point with what they think Axl needs/wants.

They don't need to do anything evil or movie-like to control someone as vulnerable as Axl. They are already in control of a lot of things Axl is not. A phone call not transfered, a letter not given, a message not delivered, anything can be manipulated towards not having certain people get in touch with him. These subtle little things add up and can work very well towards a goal.

Maybe Axl wants lots of things but he is afraid of asking or doing them. He's insecure at times. He's not confident at times. He's known for asking opinions on lyrics, songs, his own album, etc. to people around him.

One person from his circle that he respects saying certain something is either not good or right for him, I'm pretty sure he will take their word and change his mind on whatever he wanted before.

If he was more independent from the Lebeis, he'd travel alone and do a lot of things on his own. When do you see him not surrounded by a hive of assistants?

That is a huge indicator of codependency.

Are they perfect? No. Are they overzealous? maybe. I agree with you about the Duff incident, but just the fact it was luck and destiny that brought him there at that time tells me that things have unfolded the way they were supposed to Regardless of what anyone thinks what type of control TB had. And is he co-dependent? Perhaps. But why is that THEIR fault? I don't think he would travel alone at all..I don't think he would travel period, bc I don't think he likes to be alone, and I think that is the core of the matter. We put all of this derision on them for following him around, but do we know for sure that it is not something that he requires of them? And a message not delivered etc..can he not pick up the phone and call (erin) himself if he so chooses? I think perhaps that knowing that Axl has had issues of insecurity and other issues as well, that we are not giving him enough credit for having control of his own life. As @cheesecake said, he is not a puppet. (I think you may have misunderstood what she was saying, neither of us said a person who has had mental issues is a puppet).  Anyway, I guess we will probably always disagree on this subject, we are probably both very stubborn in this area ha. I also know that even though you slag them off, it comes from a place where you are truly worried for Axl and want him to be happy and surrounded by the best people for him, and it's not just derision for derision's sake.

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7 minutes ago, cheesecake said:

My dear @killuridols I don' t think, because I don' t know, TBH. No one can ascertain our Axl has mental disorder,  yes we can make assumptions and deductions from what we have been witnessing all these years but maybe that is what he wants us to see and assume?  Truth is we are merely speculators. We don't really know for sure.

If you believe he is suffering from any mental disorders, then the more reason why he should not (and maybe he himself wouldn't want to) be married,  especially to Erin. Hasn't she suffered enough before? 

All I'm saying ( bear with me I'm terribly BAD at writing long winding post and explaining what's on my mind hence my always short posts) we don't really know these public figures other than the person they want to put out for us to see and believe. Unless we live in their circles...we can only assume and speculate.

Sorry for my bad grammar or quality of writing. Really not good at articulating my thoughts.

Of course we cannot tell if he has mental disorders or not. He is problematic though. We dont need to be doctors or know him in real life to know he's had a hard time dealing with things most people don't struggle at.

But I wasn't refering to him when I asked that. It is because you said he's not a puppet and in my opinion, a puppet is actually someone who is weak in their mind or stupid. I don't think Axl is any of that, but a mental disorder, mental inestability or emotional dysfunction can make you vulnerable to manipulation and taken advantage of by people. You're not a fool when you're being manipulated, you're just vulnerable and you fall for that.

I think everybody deserves love, even if you have a mental disease or something similar. Many people with these problems are married and have children, etc. It may be hard for the family to deal with that but also, most of mental diseases develope late in life, so a lot of people are already into serious relationships or with children when they discover they have a mental disease.

You can still love and fall in love.

Axl is actually working and being functional right now, so even if he has something going on inside, he seems to have it under control (either therapy or medication) so I don't see why he could not have a serious relationship too.

16 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Are they perfect? No. Are they overzealous? maybe. I agree with you about the Duff incident, but just the fact it was luck and destiny that brought him there at that time tells me that things have unfolded the way they were supposed to Regardless of what anyone thinks what type of control TB had. And is he co-dependent? Perhaps. But why is that THEIR fault? I don't think he would travel alone at all..I don't think he would travel period, bc I don't think he likes to be alone, and I think that is the core of the matter. We put all of this derision on them for following him around, but do we know for sure that it is not something that he requires of them? And a message not delivered etc..can he not pick up the phone and call (erin) himself if he so chooses? I think perhaps that knowing that Axl has had issues of insecurity and other issues as well, that we are not giving him enough credit for having control of his own life. As @cheesecake said, he is not a puppet. (I think you may have misunderstood what she was saying, neither of us said a person who has had mental issues is a puppet).  Anyway, I guess we will probably always disagree on this subject, we are probably both very stubborn in this area ha. I also know that even though you slag them off, it comes from a place where you are truly worried for Axl and want him to be happy and surrounded by the best people for him, and it's not just derision for derision's sake.

Codependency is something that works two ways, you need an enabler in order to be codependent so yes, in some way, it is the enabler's fault to keep it going instead of telling the dependent person to get help and get out of that situation.

Yes, I'm absolutely sure he is the one who requires all these assistants travelling with him, but again, that's the problem, that's how codependency works. And in this case, he even pays them to do that, so they cannot refuse or will have to get another job.

He can pick up the phone and do all of that but these things are not so simple. Remember Axl considers them family and has a high opinion of Beta. If Beta says such and such person are bad, then he will back off from contacting them. Like when Yoda used to tell him who had a "bad aura" (or something of the sort) in the crew and he had to get rid of them. Axl believed that woman and probably have unfairly fired a lot of people. So while he does have the power to pick up a phone or send a message, after he does that, he may have to endure the disapproval of a woman whom he considers his "mother" and that is something hard to deal with.

When you love someone as much as he loves Beta, you dont want to disappoint them or make them upset.

That's why he had no choice other than make her manager when she threatened to abandon him.

That's how awful and sad codependency is :(

 

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